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Just a question for those of you who roll a PCs dice in secret: if they have an ability to re-roll once they've seen the dice but before the results are determined, how do they do that if they don't see what you rolled, or don't even know that you've made a roll?
Feats like Lucky Halfling allow one character to roll a saving throw on behalf of another and let them choose which result (not roll) to use. They can't do that if you're rolling in secret as they have to know a save is being made to use it. Whilst some saves might be obvious, the feat doesn't place any limitations on when it can be used. That also means that certain characters need to know when another character is making a save, and what kind of save it is, preventing private messages from being handed from GM to player (as far as rolling is concerned).
I just don't think the game supports rolling in secret. It relies on trust, and players separating IC and OOC knowledge. If a player can't do that then they need to learn.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I don't like a GM taking the randomness out of my hands. I want to randomly die or live by my own roll. Not someone elses.To poke a bear: should players roll attacks for the NPCs that target their PCs in combat?
No, but they should roll their own saves! :D
I think in addition to (instead of?) the trust issue I've been talking about, there's perhaps a sense that the PC's rolls are their own. Perhaps taking them away feels invasive.
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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Just a question for those of you who roll a PCs dice in secret: if they have an ability to re-roll once they've seen the dice but before the results are determined, how do they do that if they don't see what you rolled, or don't even know that you've made a roll?
Feats like Lucky Halfling allow one character to roll a saving throw on behalf of another and let them choose which result (not roll) to use. They can't do that if you're rolling in secret as they have to know a save is being made to use it. Whilst some saves might be obvious, the feat doesn't place any limitations on when it can be used. That also means that certain characters need to know when another character is making a save, and what kind of save it is, preventing private messages from being handed from GM to player (as far as rolling is concerned).
I just don't think the game supports rolling in secret. It relies on trust, and players separating IC and OOC knowledge. If a player can't do that then they need to learn.
Interesting point. From my experience, if a player has something that allows him to reroll a skill check, he is more than welcome to roll his checks himself (and I'd assume he'd realize that at the start). I had someone use a boon to get a reroll for a skill check once, but I don't see why you wouldn't save those things for saves or attacks, instead of stealth checks...
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I don't like a GM taking the randomness out of my hands. I want to randomly die or live by my own roll. Not someone elses.To poke a bear: should players roll attacks for the NPCs that target their PCs in combat?
I hope you are just trying to be funny... because ludicrous arguments to help justify your stance don't really help justify your stance.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Just a question for those of you who roll a PCs dice in secret: if they have an ability to re-roll once they've seen the dice but before the results are determined, how do they do that if they don't see what you rolled, or don't even know that you've made a roll?
Oh yeah, I meant to mention that earlier, but forgot.
Heh, and the whole IC/OOC thing gets REALLY screwy with my Foresight wizard. He always gets to act in the surprise round, even if he's unaware of enemies. He also has +10 initiative, so as often as not he can respond to an ambush before it even happens!
Now that is an exercise in the IC/OOC split!
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I think in addition to (instead of?) the trust issue I've been talking about, there's perhaps a sense that the PC's rolls are their own. Perhaps taking them away feels invasive.
It clearly is invasive to several people here.
In the fifty or so games since I've implemented the "I roll your secret stuff so you don't know about it cause its secret anyway" way of doing things I've had only one player not like it -- because he needed the ability to reroll things. So I let him roll his own stuff.
Honestly, I don't think it's a major issue (although people would disagree) who rolls these dice, and any time I saved in the past doing it my way has clearly been lost arguing my point on this topic. :P
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I don't like a GM taking the randomness out of my hands. I want to randomly die or live by my own roll. Not someone elses.Fun story you reminded me of:
** spoiler omitted **
Coincidentally, that's the same scenario where I was making secret fort saves.
Spoilers for The Pallid Plague:
Normally, I wouldn't do something like that. And if I knew that someone had a way to reroll stuff, I'd probably take that into account, but such things are fairly rare and haven't come up in my group when secret rolls were involved.
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Yea, I'm not sure why there have to be 16 rules including subsections about how to roll dice. Is there really such a large problem with people doign shifty things with their roles that you need to become some sort of Dice Tyrant?
I haven't had a chance to read all the posts. Wow! I thought there might be a few responses, but ... wow.
I was very careful not to call these Rules and I tried to add enough humor to key people in to this being tongue-in-cheek for the most part.
Some of these I feel very strongly about, but others are just really, observations.
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I hope you are just trying to be funny... because ludicrous arguments to help justify your stance don't really help justify your stance.I don't like a GM taking the randomness out of my hands. I want to randomly die or live by my own roll. Not someone elses.To poke a bear: should players roll attacks for the NPCs that target their PCs in combat?
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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**logical reason for rolling for players**
Holy freaking crap, someone that is like-minded. Run, Fromper, RUN!!
For serious: I think that this another of those RAW v. what works and no accord is going to be reached anytime soon. People that roll for their players should give their players the option to be responsible for separating IC and OOC knowledge (allowing them to roll their own stuff), and those that break that trust (to use Jiggy's terms) should be dealt with accordingly.
Case closed.
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It clearly is invasive to several people here.
Possibly. Honestly, I'm exploring this as we go. It struck me poorly when it was first mentioned, and I've been using our dialogue (thanks, btw) to peel back the layers and get it figured out.
any time I saved in the past doing it my way has clearly been lost arguing my point on this topic. :P
Time spent arguing on the internet is never wasted! ;)
I always treat passive checks as Taking 10 whether playing or GMing. A re-roll is meaningless in that context so it wouldn't apply. As soon as rolls are being made, or a player decides to roll for perception or sense motive for whatever reason, then they need to see what they get. Unless they request otherwise of course.
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Holy freaking crap, someone that is like-minded. Run, Fromper, RUN!!**logical reason for rolling for players**
hay Walter! I said you can roll the needed rolls for my PCs... just that I normally T10 whenever possible (makes it much easier for you). Heck, I have my PCs perception and sense motive written on his table tent!
By the way, how do you know what the players bonuses are?
Say for example my PC has a +14 Perception - but +3 of that only applies in dim light (owl familiar), and +2 (Alertness) only when his familiar is within 5', But it doesn't count his +2 Masterwork Tool, or the Guidance he normally uses when doing an active Perception check.
How do you keep that strait for 6 (or more) PCs at the table?
I rarely have that issue. I ask people what their normal modifier to perception is. So far, I haven't had an issue with crazy modifiers going everywhere. If someone prefers taking 10, I do that. If they prefer to roll, I'll roll a check behind a screen for them. Sometimes, merely being told to make a perception check is enough to make players decide something is following them. And I don't enjoy needing to make misdirecting rolls all the time, it bogs down the game.
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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Holy freaking crap, someone that is like-minded. Run, Fromper, RUN!!**logical reason for rolling for players**
hay Walter! I said you can roll the needed rolls for my PCs... just that I normally T10 whenever possible (makes it much easier for you). Heck, I have my PCs perception and sense motive written on his table tent!
By the way, how do you know what the players bonuses are?
Say for example my PC has a +14 Perception - but +3 of that only applies in dim light (owl familiar), and +2 (Alertness) only when his familiar is within 5', But it doesn't count his +2 Masterwork Tool, or the Guidance he normally uses when doing an active Perception check.
How do you keep that strait for 6 (or more) PCs at the table?
Here's how I start my games. I whip out my awesome picture cards in MTG sleeves and a dry erase marker. I pick out pictures that represent the typical classes and get one for each player. At the top I write down their names, then I ask for their perception bonus and jot it down as well. These cards are also used to track initiative in combat, out in the open so players know when who's going when in combat (something I like knowing as a player).
If someone wants to make a stealth, I just ask for their bonus. If someone has two different numbers for a check (like stealth), I write it in (parenthesis) beside the first.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I whip out my awesome picture cards in MTG sleeves and a dry erase marker. I pick out pictures that represent the typical classes and get one for each player. At the top I write down their names, then I ask for their perception bonus and jot it down as well. These cards are also used to track initiative in combat, out in the open so players know when who's going when in combat (something I like knowing as a player).
I...
That...You...
THAT'S BRILLIANT!
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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I whip out my awesome picture cards in MTG sleeves and a dry erase marker. I pick out pictures that represent the typical classes and get one for each player. At the top I write down their names, then I ask for their perception bonus and jot it down as well. These cards are also used to track initiative in combat, out in the open so players know when who's going when in combat (something I like knowing as a player).I...
That...
You...THAT'S BRILLIANT!
You seem... surprised? at how awesome I am.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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You seem... surprised? at how awesome I am.I whip out my awesome picture cards in MTG sleeves and a dry erase marker. I pick out pictures that represent the typical classes and get one for each player. At the top I write down their names, then I ask for their perception bonus and jot it down as well. These cards are also used to track initiative in combat, out in the open so players know when who's going when in combat (something I like knowing as a player).I...
That...
You...THAT'S BRILLIANT!
No, just impressed. The surprise element is from seeing a good idea that I could so easily replicate: I already bring dry erase markers to games, and own plenty of MtG sleeves. I might have to steal this idea.
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Here's how I start my games. I whip out my awesome picture cards in MTG sleeves and a dry erase marker. I pick out pictures that represent the typical classes and get one for each player. At the top I write down their names, then I ask for their perception bonus and jot it down as well. These cards are also used to track initiative in combat, out in the open so players know when who's going when in combat (something I like knowing as a player).If someone wants to make a stealth, I just ask for their bonus. If someone has two different numbers for a check (like stealth), I write it in (parenthesis) beside the first.
Holy. Crap. My mind is blown, what a *brilliant* idea!
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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No, just impressed. The surprise element is from seeing a good idea that I could so easily replicate: I already bring dry erase markers to games, and own plenty of MtG sleeves. I might have to steal this idea.
I started out using MTG token cards and sharpies, then token cards in sleeves with sharpies, then with dry erase, then I printed off some pics of the iconics (resized to card size) and put them over the tokens inside the sleeves. Instant PC cards!
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Just a question for those of you who roll a PCs dice in secret: if they have an ability to re-roll once they've seen the dice but before the results are determined, how do they do that if they don't see what you rolled, or don't even know that you've made a roll?
Hi. My name is Chris, and I will roll certain rolls in secret for players if I don't think their characters would know the results. (Stealth, Disable Device, Sense Motive are popular choices.)
I'd not considered re-rolls, because they crop up seldom, but I really appreciate that consideration. Thanks, Stormfriend.I'll still roll some rolls myself, but if the player has a re-roll available, I'll ask "what's your breakpoint for a re-roll?" If it's below that, I'll ask him if he wants to re-roll. So, I guess he might know when his roll is above his breakpoint (I didn't ask.)
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Another thing on the whole "GM rolls for you" issue:
Somehow, nosig's idea of having the player pre-roll his initiatives and letting him record them "feels" better than a GM asking for a bonus and rolling secret checks for things.
That sounds the "invasive" idea, but I could be wrong. Any speculations, anyone?
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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why for Disable Device? or Stealth?
Do you tell the player when you are rolling these rolls? Can he Take 10? Do you tell him he can?
Because everybody thinks she's being stealthy, and because the rules note that, if she misses her Disable Device roll by 5 or more, and if she's attempting some sort of sabotage, she thinks the device is disabled, but it still works normally.
Yes (I only roll at the direction of the player).
If she's not distracted or in danger.
Not specifically.
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Just a question for those of you who roll a PCs dice in secret: if they have an ability to re-roll once they've seen the dice but before the results are determined, how do they do that if they don't see what you rolled, or don't even know that you've made a roll?
Feats like Lucky Halfling allow one character to roll a saving throw on behalf of another and let them choose which result (not roll) to use. They can't do that if you're rolling in secret as they have to know a save is being made to use it. Whilst some saves might be obvious, the feat doesn't place any limitations on when it can be used. That also means that certain characters need to know when another character is making a save, and what kind of save it is, preventing private messages from being handed from GM to player (as far as rolling is concerned).
I'd say those are some clunky-written feats.
Like 4E style encounter and daily powers, they're "I can do this totally cool move, but only once per day.".
Give a PC a mechanic for improving saves, by all means, but not one that encourages stepping out of the game;
Let them have as many rerolls as they need vs attacks they could see coming (and which they'd know they weren't going to dodge otherwise),
Let them make 'two rolls and pick the best' for tough guys who laugh at poison,
Keep a pool of ablative points that would be spent on a retroactive +1 whenever a Will save is just off.
For me, these abilities should be automatically triggered by instinct, intestinal fortitude, a guardian angel. They should just happen, then let everyone get on with the game. Not encourage the players to sit around stroking their chins and consulting an Excel sheet.
From my experience, any player with an ability that's worded 'decide to use this ability after the dice are rolled, but before the result is declared' is less in danger from the GM, than the other players, of whom there's always one who knows the DC of everything, and just has to yell it out...
<dice roll>
Uninvolved player: "Whoah, sucks to be you!".
GM: "Well, I was going to let you decide whether to reroll that, but since we all know now it was a fail...<sigh>..."
Affected player "Goddammit, Leroy, will you keep your damn cakehole shut, just ONE TIME?"
These abilites also run into problems when the roll is so low that the total after mods is 10 or less. Does knowing the result is less than the core mechanic base target DC (10+effect level+relevant stat mod) constitute 'knowing the result'? Most creatures don't have a dump stat in the score that powers their iconic attacks, after all.
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I believe the following:
a) Dice should be readable by persons other than the person rolling them.
b) Dice should not be hurled into the miniatures (most importantly, giant d20s should not be hurled against painted metal minis, because it does damage them).
c) Players should be willing to switch to a different die or dice if it seems that there is an implausible series of results (say, a set of d20s rolls in the 17-20 range more than 80% of the time over six sessions at a local convention). It may not be cheating, but this is where the appearance of impropriety can ruin the faith the GM has in the players.
I have one micro d20 that is easily readable. The only reason I don't use it is because I don't have other dice in the same color scheme (don't need them to be tiny) to make it feel like less of an outsider.
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I have only ready like a page or so of this thread. While I'm sure that at least some of Don's post was born from recent frustration, I think there is a lot of "tongue-in-cheek" as well.
I am going to use my convention commemorative d6's and some have the one replaced with an image, some the six. I also have a Paizo d20 as my primary. I do use 12-sided d4's as well as hard to read d3's. Sometimes, I use a 9" (roughly) octagonal dice tray (suck it D'moon). If a GM told me I could not use any of the above, and was serious about it, I would likely leave the table. Probably a GM that I will not agree with on other aspects of the game, so better to save everyone heartache.
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Sometimes, I use a 9" (roughly) octagonal dice tray (suck it D'moon). If a GM told me I could not use any of the above, and was serious about it, I would likely leave the table.
If the table was crowded *8 people on a small round table* and I asked you to put the dice tray aside, I would assume you would, but even If after I had to explain to you my reasons that the table is to crowded for the use of your Dice tray to waste space and you still refused to remove it, I would be fine with you leaving the table... same effect, more room...
This actually happened 2 GenCons ago to me, Had a full able of 7 players + me, there was not enough space on the table for my maps, I asked people to try to put some of the stuff under the table *books and such*, and one player complained that he liked using his very large Dice tray, in the end he removed it but was not happy about it.
If I tell a player there is not enough room on the table for it, I am telling the truth, if they have a problem with that, I am fine with that.
I have asked player to remove Laptops from the table because there was not enough room, though I let them keep them if it is the only means of a character sheet, though I do pass my opinion of Laptops being a poor choice for conventions. I have told players to change dice because I cannot read them. I see all of these as reasonable requests, because they can still play without them and it does not affect their enjoyment, but does positively affect my ability to GM which makes their enjoyment greater.
It has nothing to do with me "not agree with you on other aspects of the game", it has all to do with having a positive situation to GM you where I feel comfortable and not crowded.
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Okay, so there's been some threadjacking going on. Here are some more suggestions for Dice Etiquette:
23. Thou shall not touch another player's dice.
24. Do not use GM dice as a player and do not use player dice as a GM. Dice are easily confused and when you make them do double duty they're not going to be good at either job.
25. Dice used for different purposes shall be stored separately. GM dice in the GM dice bag and player dice in the player dice bag.
26. Never place a die proven to be unlucky in among your star performers. The unlucky die will contaminate your other dice with amazing speed.
27. It is neighborly to have several sets of dice on hand for when someone next to you has the same type and color of dice, you may put those dice away so as to avoid a potential faux pas and take their dice as your own.
28. When a die rolls under a tent card it is proper to lift the tent card to view the result. If this can not be accomplished without influencing the die a re-roll is indicated. If this becomes a habit, the GM is within their rights to rule all future rolls like this to result in the worst possible outcome for the player.
29. Players will not stand books, laptops, notebooks, etc on end so as to create a mock GM screen behind which to roll their dice.
30. Snacks and beverages shall not clutter the dice rolling area on the table.
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Oh one other thing i am beginning to try, is to have players roll in a dice cup, for stealth and perception rolls. then, without looking in the cup, i ask them to pass it to me. This way I know what their rolls are, and They don't. I find it encourages "roll playing" instead of meta gaming.
Also it allows me to weave the dice rolls into the narrative......
so for example if they roll a 1 on a stealth check, I could describe that they are sneaking forward, and suddenly there is a loud crack, as their character stepped on a twig.....etc.
I'm so suggesting the dice cup idea next time I run.
I often do the same thing about die rolls, retroactively. Like if character A misses by one, and character B wildly misses "You know B's attack might have hit if he wasn't scrambling to avoid A's attack."
Mathew, thank you.
I happen to like your idea, of explaining one character's near miss, happened because his buddy made a wild swing and almost cut his foot off. I may just steal it and use it at my table.
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Because everybody thinks she's being stealthy, and because the rules note that, if she misses her Disable Device roll by 5 or more, and if she's attempting some sort of sabotage, she thinks the device is disabled, but it still works normally.
The Disable Device makes sense for a secret check, as per the rules, but I disagree about the stealth. You can totally know that you f~&@ed something up as you do it. For all but one or two skills that is not out of game knowledge. That as nosig so eloquently mentioned the visceral sinking feeling of looking at your own 1 on stealth can be worse than just having a DM describe something.
If I am playing an actual Tabletop RPG with real people, as opposed to a computer game, I want to roll my dice, not have arbitrary things calculated behind the screen because the DM doesn't trust me not to metagame.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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So, is 'suck my 9" dice tray' a new gamer insult?
@Myles
Funny bad roll story
Next round, the psychic warrior repeats the feat with the longsword, and the battle maiden just misses again "This time you were right on target, right up until the moment when you had to duck this longsword flying towards your head." At that point the one remaining gnoll was just too dumbfounded to run.
Best of all, the ranger's player was yelling at the psychic warrior's player for her own bad die rolls.
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23. Thou shall not touch another player's dice.
Back in high school we had a player who would try to "slight of hand" other players' d20s when they were distracted and pop them into his mouth... then after the player has spent some amount of time looking for the damn thing he would say "Oh, you wanted this back?" *pitoey* and spit the thing out. NAAAASSSTYYYY.
WJ
