Hi all,
I'm building a character that's inferior in a few ways due to RP reasons. I would like to optimize from these inferior initial conditions in order to make it acceptably effective for Pathfinder Society.
He's basically a dex magus dipping into rogue to get a heap of skills making his background as smith/merchant more valid and to make his acrobatics/diplomacy/stealth/appraise not suck. He is a curious fellow, thus the wide area of interest (and lack of dedication to one thing).
Here goes:
Race
Half-elf
Dual-Minded alternate racial trait
Abilities
20 pt. buy.
STR 13
DEX 18 (16+2)
CON 12
INT 14
WIS 8
CHA 12 (Bad choice #1. I don't like playing mentally inferior characters. The low wisdom is enough...)
Traits
Magical Knack, I know the awesomeness of Magical Lineage. I think this is better for my build. I welcome advice on this choice.
Elven Reflexes, my guess for a good second trait. Advice is welcomed.
Level Progression
1 Rogue
Skills: ACRO, APPR, 2xCRFT, DPLO, DSBL, KNW(dun), KNW(loc), PRCP, PROF(merchnt), STLH)
Feat: Weapon Finesse
2 Magus
Skills: Catching up on spellcraft, arcana, UMD, and 1 more in a craft.
3 Rogue - This second rogue level is not certain. I think this is a good level as I can get evasion and weapon focus.
Skills: Keeping SPCR, ARCA, UMD maxed. Buffing ACRO, STLH, DSBL, and utilizing class skill in CLMB, SWIM.
Feat: Dervish Dance and Weapon Focus(Scimitar) from Rogue Talent.
4 Magus - Magus from here on.
5 Magus
Feat: Arcane Strike (which I believe works with Magical Knack)
6 Magus
7 Magus
Feat: Extra Arcana or Extra Arcane Pool
Bonus feat: Intensify Spell
... And so on
Magus Arcana considerations (not sure here)
Spell Blending for a damage cantrip (Avoiding discussions on Arcane Mark validity...)
Wand Wielder looks good if I can get some wands and it doesn't drain my low arcane pool
Arcane Accuracy is apparently good. I admit, I think it looks expensive.
Familiar would be cute, but I can't see the effectiveness of this.
That's about all of it. I hope someone will find the challenge of making this not suck, interesting, because I really like the flair of this jack-of-all-trades.
Pre-emptive to the "pick a Bard instead" I would like to say, present me a bard who is as offensive as the magus, and doesn't dump intelligence (I'm picky with my way of roleplaying).
So, you want to play a Magus who was a smith/Merchant, and who's good at Acrobatics, Diplomacy, Stealth and Appraise. You also want to be a half-elf, and a dervish dancer.
Any other reason you want Rogue levels? Also, any reason for the 13 strength?
Besides your mentioned reasons, whatever the rogue brings is icing (sneak attack, trapfinding, evasion)
The dervish is pure effectiveness, not important for the character. However, I like dex over str.
13 STR is not for Power Attack, but Carrying Capacity (which I still find is very low). I even invested in a donkey with saddlebags at 1st level.
Actually, maybe a Bard (Arcane Duelist) dip could achieve the same basic thing, but with better synergy. Maybe?
If you dip bard and want to be a dervish dancer why not take the Dawnflower dervish bard archetype?
He gets dervish dance as bonus feat without needing weapon finesse.
Looks like a strong choice, mechanically. I didn't know that archetype. However, it has a restriction on deity. I was going for a non-devoted, but this is not a long stretch for him I suppose :-)
My advice- make a list of what the character *must* deliver in you mind, then what you'd *like* it to deliver. On the flip side what it *must* not have, and then what you'd *rather* it not have.For each point label 'mechanics' or 'RP'. Many times people will confuse the two here surprisingly enough.
-James
The quick list would look like this. Thanks for making me think that way. Good approach.
Must have
Pathfinder Society Compatibility
Half-elf (RP)
High INT (MECH/RP)
High DEX (MECH)
Decent CHA (RP)
Melee capabilities (MECH)
Arcane spells (MECH&RP) including spellcraft (MECH)
At least 1 rank in Craft(blacksmith) (RP)
1 rank in Profession(merchant) (RP)
Nice to have
Magus (MECH)
Appraise class skill with ranks (MECH)
Enough skill points to get knowledge skills (RP)
Sufficient STR for carrying capacity (MECH)
Damage cantrip (MECH) - I don't want the Arcane Mark argument coming up at the table
Functional Acrobatics (MECH)
Functional Stealth (MECH)
Enough diplomacy to not be an idiot in conversation (RP)
Allowed features
Bard (offensive)
Rogue, Fighter, similarly "bland/flexible" classes
Must not have
Levels in Sorc, Pala, Barb, Monk, similarly strongly flavored classes (RP)
Evil alignment (MECH&RP)
Rather not have
Terrible Perception (MECH)
Terrible Sense Motive (MECH)
Religious restrictions (RP)
Not be too Performance oriented (RP)
A two level dip into Alchemist (Mindchemist) can get you double your intelligence boost on knowledge skills. It can free you up a bit since you don't have max them out to still do good checks. The Cognatogen can bump up your intelligence and as such your DCs. It may not be the flavor you are going for, but it can work.
I almost think that going straight Arcane Duelist might be better for you instead of Magus. If your reasons for doing Magus are Mechanical, you might want to weigh the effectiveness of a straight bard over a multiclassed Magus. If you want to dip bard for two levels, I would go without the Arcane Duelist because it gives up Versatile Performance which you can use to really pimp out your social skills. (full ranks in oratory give you full ranks in diplomacy and sense motive).
A two level dip into Alchemist (Mindchemist) can get you double your intelligence boost on knowledge skills. It can free you up a bit since you don't have max them out to still do good checks. The Cognatogen can bump up your intelligence and as such your DCs. It may not be the flavor you are going for, but it can work.
Looks interesting. A lot of reading to do on this subject..
I almost think that going straight Arcane Duelist might be better for you instead of Magus. If your reasons for doing Magus are Mechanical, you might want to weigh the effectiveness of a straight bard over a multiclassed Magus. If you want to dip bard for two levels, I would go without the Arcane Duelist because it gives up Versatile Performance which you can use to really pimp out your social skills. (full ranks in oratory give you full ranks in diplomacy and sense motive).
This comes off as weak to me. Please explain why it's not, because I do like the idea behind it.
So for example:
<Pure Magus build attempting to meet specs>
-James
Establishing your dislike for multiclassed magi, I see. Still, I thank you for your contribution.
I was interested in seeing your take on this, and since you still choose a bad pure magus over any multiclass magus, I suppose either you're biased or multiclass magi really are crap.. (I do not mean to imply that you're wrong, btw).I do have a question. You chose to emphasize Stealth over Acrobatics. Do you mean to say this is more useful to a magus?
Also, do you think the scattered skills are, at all, useful?
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My advice- make a list of what the character *must* deliver in you mind, then what you'd *like* it to deliver. On the flip side what it *must* not have, and then what you'd *rather* it not have.For each point label 'mechanics' or 'RP'. Many times people will confuse the two here surprisingly enough.
-James
The quick list would look like this. Thanks for making me think that way. Good approach.
Must have
Pathfinder Society Compatibility
Half-elf (RP)
High INT (MECH/RP)
High DEX (MECH)
Decent CHA (RP)
Melee capabilities (MECH)
Arcane spells (MECH&RP) including spellcraft (MECH)
At least 1 rank in Craft(blacksmith) (RP)
1 rank in Profession(merchant) (RP)Nice to have
Magus (MECH)
Appraise class skill with ranks (MECH)
Enough skill points to get knowledge skills (RP)
Sufficient STR for carrying capacity (MECH)
Damage cantrip (MECH) - I don't want the Arcane Mark argument coming up at the table
Functional Acrobatics (MECH)
Functional Stealth (MECH)
Enough diplomacy to not be an idiot in conversation (RP)Allowed features
Bard (offensive)
Rogue, Fighter, similarly "bland/flexible" classesMust not have
Levels in Sorc, Pala, Barb, Monk, similarly strongly flavored classes (RP)
Evil alignment (MECH&RP)Rather not have
Terrible Perception (MECH)
Terrible Sense Motive (MECH)
Religious restrictions (RP)
Not be too Performance oriented (RP)
Well first things first, you can't have MAGICAL KNACK, it's banned in PFS play so forget that.
Second there is absolutely no reason to multi-class with Rogue, it will seriously weaken your character.Magus is an int based class (so you should have plenty of skill points from that for everything you're after).
Craft skills are only used in PFS for day job rolls since you can't actually craft anything so whatever points you put in there are up to your RP needs.
If you want to avoid the Arcane Mark issue you have 2 real ways of doing it. First take the two-world magic trait and grab touch of fatigue cantrip OR play a hexcrafter and use the Brand (curse) cantrip. Either one resolves this problem but I'm a HUGE fan of the Hexcrafter archetype. Having some at will hex abilities to fall back on is a massive boost to your daily resources.
Stealth, Diplomacy and Acrobatics are nice but I'd much rather use Fly(hex), Charm(hex or spell) and Vanish (invisibility spell) instead. Charm is an automatic successful diplomacy check, Vanish gives you a flat +20 stealth bonus and who needs to tumble when you can fly over everyone/everything who gets in your way.
I'll give you the same advice I give everyone who considers playing a Magus:
You are a CASTER who fights not a fighter who CASTS. Play to your strengths.
Everything you are trying to do with level dips or workarounds will be gained automatically by your 5th magus level.
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Going by your list, I'll just note that you can do literally all of the things on it (except for Magus, a damaging cantrip, and the Religious Restriction), starting from level 2, as a straight Dawnflower Derrvish Bard.
Go with something like this:
Human Dawnflower Dervish
Str 12
Dex 18
Con 12
Int 14
Wis 7
Cha 14
Skills
Appraise
Craft (Blacksmith)
Diplomacy
Know (Arcana)
Know (Religion)
Perception
Perform (Sing)
Profesion
Spellcraft
Stealth
His Sense Motive sucks at 1st level only, as you grab Versatile Performance (Sing) at 2nd. His Acrobatics sucks from 1 to 5, as you grab Versatile Performance (Dance) then, but is viable (and you should grab a rank of Dance at level 2, just for flavor).
And he's not too Performance oriented...he just does the Dervish Dance thing in combat, probably combine with a bit of singing. You could ditch the Diplomacy for Bluff and grab Oratory instead of Sing if you prefer, but your Diplomacy will suck at level 1. At 10th level grab a couple of ranks of Perform (Percussion) and suddenly be okay at Handle Animal and Intimidate. That's all the Performance you ever need.
Spell-wise, you grab various buff, healing, and attack spells (Expeditious Retreat, CLW, Glitterdust (great vs. invisible stuff), Bladed Dash, Heroism, Haste, Good Hope, etc.)
Feat-wise, you probably grab Arcane Strike and maybe eventually Power Attack (it's probably worth putting a point in Str at 4th to get Power Attack on this guy). Then Combat Casting and maybe Plus stuff like Dodge, Great Fortitude, Toughness, and maybe even Iron Will to enhance his survivability.
Trait-wise Indomitable Faith is very good for this guy, and if you want to go a more Intimidate-y route (and have the appropriate book) Blade of Mercy + Enforcer is a fun combo.
Well first things first, you can't have MAGICAL KNACK, it's banned in PFS play so forget that.
I didn't know that. Why is this not allowed, and where can I find a list of eligible traits?
Anyway, thanks for pointing out the spell based alternatives to skills.Everything you are trying to do with level dips or workarounds will be gained automatically by your 5th magus level.
Are you referring to something specific happening at 5th level?
@James
Thanks for the analysis and your explanations. I do like the Stealth trick you found, as I am always looking for unordinary ways to play classes. Having found my favorite gish so far, I even try to mess that one up! :P
Maybe Hexcrafter is a good idea, it looks to add a lot of utility, which is really what I'm after, while not sacrificing too much.
I'm still considering a bard if it can be built to do melee damage and not be especially "bardish" (with the perform and stuff, this is not for this character). I really don't know how to build this (original concept) as a bard.
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I'm still considering a bard if it can be built to do melee damage and not be especially "bardish" (with the perform and stuff, this is not for this character). I really don't know how to build this (original concept) as a bard.
What about being a Bard is a thematic problem? Bard's actually a VERY flexible Class thematically. Yes, you need to know how to perform somehow...but if you're planning on taking Dervish dance you need to be able to do that anyway. You certainly don't need to make a living at it.
And a Dawnflower Dervish can very definitely be an effective melee combatant, their Battle Dance eventually granting +6 to both hit and damage by level 11.
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Well first things first, you can't have MAGICAL KNACK, it's banned in PFS play so forget that.I didn't know that. Why is this not allowed, and where can I find a list of eligible traits?
Anyway, thanks for pointing out the spell based alternatives to skills.Everything you are trying to do with level dips or workarounds will be gained automatically by your 5th magus level.Are you referring to something specific happening at 5th level?
@James
Thanks for the analysis and your explanations. I do like the Stealth trick you found, as I am always looking for unordinary ways to play classes. Having found my favorite gish so far, I even try to mess that one up! :P
Maybe Hexcrafter is a good idea, it looks to add a lot of utility, which is really what I'm after, while not sacrificing too much.I'm still considering a bard if it can be built to do melee damage and not be especially "bardish" (with the perform and stuff, this is not for this character). I really don't know how to build this (original concept) as a bard.
If you go to the additional resources page for PFS here it will let you know what is and is not legal for society play.
Nothing specific happens at 5th level, you will just have the spells, skill points, hexes and cash to regularly be able to succeed at everything on that list you have above.
Currently I'm playing a hexcrafter magus and with the skillpoints, spells (scrolls) and hexes I have we auto succeed on pretty much every non combat challenge that shows up. Once a fight DOES happen then the pure combat effectiveness of the Magus class kicks in and things get interesting.
The bard is a nice option but I've found the few that I've played with that are self-buffing like the dawn flower dervish being a less "party Friendly" option. They can be useful but just seem to not really have a use in the party once you get to higher levels.
I'm still considering a bard if it can be built to do melee damage and not be especially "bardish" (with the perform and stuff, this is not for this character). I really don't know how to build this (original concept) as a bard.What about being a Bard is a thematic problem? Bard's actually a VERY flexible Class thematically. Yes, you need to know how to perform somehow...but if you're planning on taking Dervish dance you need to be able to do that anyway. You certainly don't need to make a living at it.
And a Dawnflower Dervish can very definitely be an effective melee combatant, their Battle Dance eventually granting +6 to both hit and damage by level 11.
I guess, even though I like the Bard and all it stands for, I still share some of the prejudice towards bards... Should try and shed that.
EDIT: If I could have an INT based Bard I'd be all over it!
Sure losing spell recall is no light thing but I play a hexcrafter and up until now I'm often glad if my pool lasts the whole day.
But it depends on which hex you chose.
I've chosen flight (very good) and, via extra hex, cauldron (more or less a wasted feat).
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Maybe Hexcrafter is a good idea, it looks to add a lot of utility, which is really what I'm after, while not sacrificing too much.
Losing spell recall at 4th is a big hit, don't discount it. Depends what you're looking to spend pool points on, but I see each of them beyond the enhancing the weapon as another 1st level spell that I can cast.
By 11th, improved spell recall is just awesome. Now you get a 3rd level spell back for 1 point.
With preferred spell these can always be metamagicd shocking grasps, but can be sitting as utility spells at the same time. If I burn it then find I need it, its just a pool point away.
That is not to discount hexcrafter. It can be nice.. like I mentioned I use it in the multiclass magus build I alluded to. It's just it's not a no brainer to make the sacrifice.
-James
I USED to think losing spell recall was a big deal but it's not, I don't think I've ever missed it actually. The utility and functionality you get for having hexes MORE than make up for losing it.
Best case Spell recall will give you about 5 more spell levels to cast per day. The hexes are unlimited effects you can use per day. Once you get a little cash and start stock piling a few pearls of power then you will never care about spell recall again.Just ask yourself this, is 5-6 spell levels a day worth more than 10 minutes of flying AND perm feather fall AND a third arm AND reach AND a -4 to all your opponents saves & AC AND auto success on any Diplomacy check AND a super save or die Slumber spell that ignores SR AND every curse spell in the game (arcane & divine) added to your spell list?
That's really all your giving up, 5-6 spell levels a day for all of that. Not to mention what happens once you get past 10th level. Then you are just spending a few more arcane points each time you recall a spell then a normal Magus and in exchange for that you get this:
Agony (Su): A witch can place this hex on one creature causing them to suffer intense pain. The target is nauseated for a number of rounds equal to the witch’s level.
Ice Tomb (Su): A storm of ice and freezing wind envelops the target, which takes 3d8 points of cold damage (Fortitude half). If the target fails its save, it is paralyzed and unconscious. but does not need to eat or breathe (but does need to drink or they dehydrate to death) while the ice lasts.
Retribution (Su): Immediately after the hexed creature deals damage in melee, it takes half that damage (round down). This damage bypasses any resistances, immunities, or damage reduction the creature possesses.
Waxen Image (Su): The witch gains a small measure of control over the creature. As a standard action, the witch can cause the subject to do any one of the following things: move up to the creature’s speed in any direction, attack itself once with any weapon in hand (this attack automatically hits), lay down on the ground, or drop anything held. Alternatively, she can spend one of her uses to simply torture the image, causing the creature to be both sickened and staggered on its turn.
All of this in exchange for a couple of extra arcane points a day IF you feel like spending them that day.
This is a trade I'd make every day and would laugh all the way to the bank.
Sorry guys, I didn't mean to ignite your argument from Walter's thread. You both have really good arguments, indicating that both probably work fine :-) Thanks to all for the advice.
Traits: lineage shocking grasp, +2 concentration checks-James
How do you get concentration as non-magic trait?