DR With Multiple Null Conditions


Rules Questions


When a DR entry lists multiple null conditions, does an attack need to be both to overcome it? For example, a Thanatotic Titan has DR 15/lawful and epic -- this means that a weapon needs to be both lawful and epic, correct? Or do DR entries use "and" to mean "or"?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber

If it says X 'and' Y, then it must be both. If it says X 'or' Y, then it must be only one.

E.G. the Rakshasa has DR/Good and Piercing. Thus the weapon must be a good-aligned piercing weapon. If it were DR/Good or Piercing, then a non-magical rapier would bypass it.

Edit: You can see in the Babau stat block that they have DR 10/cold iron or good, unlike the Rakshasa who has DR 15/Good and Piercing.


Hooray, mathematical and/ors. That makes things easier. Thanks.

EDIT: So how does that interact with the DR-breaking properties of raw enhancement bonuses?


A +3 weapon counts as cold iron and silver, so if something has DR X/cold iron or good, then a +3 weapon will bypass it. If it's DR X/cold iron and good, then it needs to be aligned as well. A +5 weapon pretty much bypasses all DR except weapon type (bludgeoning, slashing, piercing) and epic.


To have even more fun with damage reduction, if you have damage reduction from two separate sources, they create an "And" situation. So if your base creature has DR 10/silver and their template has DR 10/good, the creature's DR is 10/silver AND good.


However, if your template grants DR 5/good to a creature with DR 10/silver, then you take whichever of the better applies.


If the Epic "rules" aren't really rules, but are instead guidlines, then how are you supposed to overcome DR/Epic?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber

'Epic' is a game term for weapons with greater than a +5 enhancement bonus.

Grand Lodge

But doesn't epic make other DR on top of epic like weapon material and alignment redundant if a +5 weapon can already bypass those?


Which, if you are in a game that doesn't allow 3.5 features, you can never achieve by RAW. Seems legit /facepalm


Icabello wrote:
But doesn't epic make other DR on top of epic like weapon material and alignment redundant if a +5 weapon can already bypass those?

Yes... Yes it does.


3 people marked this as FAQ candidate.
Neo2151 wrote:
Which, if you are in a game that doesn't allow 3.5 features, you can never achieve by RAW. Seems legit /facepalm

Actually, a +4 or +5 bane weapon of the appropriate type will become either a +6 or +7 weapon against the creature type it is tuned to; which will overcome epic DR. Right?

Master Arminas


No, an epic weapon is one with an enhancement bonus of +6 or greater, not an effective enhancement bonus of 6 or greater.
To clarify:
A +5 Keen Holy Flaming Burst Longsword is not epic.
A +6 Longsword is epic.

[Edit - Unless something has changed somewhere since the 3.5 EHB rules anyway.]

[Edit2 - I see what you're suggesting now MA. Might help if I remembered what Bane did, yeah? ^_^ And... I have no idea if that would count as Epic or not. Worth a faq, imo.]


Neo2151 wrote:

No, an epic weapon is one with an enhancement bonus of +6 or greater, not an effective enhancement bonus of 6 or greater.

To clarify:
A +5 Keen Holy Flaming Burst Longsword is not epic.
A +6 Longsword is epic.

[Edit - Unless something has changed somewhere since the 3.5 EHB rules anyway.]

[Edit2 - I see what you're suggesting now MA. Might help if I remembered what Bane did, yeah? ^_^ And... I have no idea if that would count as Epic or not. Worth a faq, imo.]

I can appreciate the distinction, but from a mechanics point of view this is the same as saying bane can't grant the additional +2 because your weapon is already +10 equivalent...


Neo2151 wrote:
Which, if you are in a game that doesn't allow 3.5 features, you can never achieve by RAW. Seems legit /facepalm

The one sample melee weapon artifact in the Pathfinder core rulebook was the +6 Axe of the Dwarvish Lords. The availability of Epic weapons is the purview of the GM in a non epic game...

Or at least it should be. Unless it got FAQ'ed up or Errated, a +4 Bane weapon hits +6 against the appropriate type. And the Furious enchantment also does it as long as the barbarian is Raging.

Furious: This ability can only be placed on a melee weapon. A furious weapon serves as a focus for its wielder's anger. When the wielder is raging or under the effect of a rage spell, [b]the weapon's enhancement bonus is +2 better than normal[b]...


I think James Jacobs said that while those break the +5 enhancement barrier they do not apply toward overcoming DR.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Neo2151 wrote:

No, an epic weapon is one with an enhancement bonus of +6 or greater, not an effective enhancement bonus of 6 or greater.

To clarify:
A +5 Keen Holy Flaming Burst Longsword is not epic.
A +6 Longsword is epic.

A +1 keen dancing holy flaming vorpal scimitar, on the other hand, is epic, and will readily bypass DR/epic, but not even DR/silver.

SCNR


Midnight_Angel wrote:
A +1 keen dancing holy flaming vorpal scimitar, on the other hand, is epic, and will readily bypass DR/epic, but not even DR/silver.

No, it would not get through DR/Epic. While that weapon certainly uses epic pricing formula and could only be made by a player through using Epic rules, the DR rules specify a weapon has to have the +6 enhancement bonus to get past DR Epic.

A few very powerful monsters are vulnerable only to epic weapons—that is, magic weapons with at least a +6 enhancement bonus. Such creatures' natural weapons are also treated as epic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.


master arminas wrote:
Neo2151 wrote:
Which, if you are in a game that doesn't allow 3.5 features, you can never achieve by RAW. Seems legit /facepalm

Actually, a +4 or +5 bane weapon of the appropriate type will become either a +6 or +7 weapon against the creature type it is tuned to; which will overcome epic DR. Right?

Master Arminas

And I like this too. I'm increasingly becoming fond of bane weapons as my preconceptions about them are getting shattered by a thorough reading of the rules.

Caius wrote:
I think James Jacobs said that while those break the +5 enhancement barrier they do not apply toward overcoming DR.

JJ, for as awesome as he is, is often wrong and has specifically said that his "rulings" are no more than suggestions about how he would run things at his table. They are not FAQs or pre-errata statements like those from SKR or Jason Buhlman.

And, if I'm remembering the thread right, I thought the suggested house rule was the opposite anyway...

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