Hi
I'm wondering what options there are to get the things required for access into Mystic Theurge.
Obviously it's level 3 at the very lowest otherwise the 3 ranks aren't possible.
Also the obvious choice is Wiz 3/Cleric 3 or something along those lines, which makes the first level to pick MT level 7.
Is there any way to get it earlier? As cheesy and munchkiny as you like.
I remember there were ways back in 3.5 with some obscure feats to get it as early as level 4 I think, but use PF stuff only if possible.
As far as I can tell nothing in PF will allow you to get to Mystic Theurge before level 7th - required ability to cast 2nd level divine spells *and* 2nd level arcane spells is the great roadblock here.
I've been known to let druids going mystic theurge to substitute knw/nature for the knw/religion requirement. Obviously, a house rule there. But one that makes more sense than requiring a druid to take ranks in knw/religion...
I do not think there are any back doors into an early Mystic Theurge. There have been people advocating some very cheesy ideas on how to do it early, but none of those have held water in regards to the rules.
35 fame with the white grotto in absalom using the guild rules from inner sea magic would qualify you for advanced esoteric training which gives you 3 fake levels in one spellcasting class, including spells know and spells per day and one level in another spellcasting class, including spells known and spells per day up the a maximum of your overall character level.
So with this a sorc 1/clr 2 could be a sorc 4/clr3 for casting purposes and qualify for the prestige class as they would be able to have 3 ranks in the necessary skills and be able to cast 2nd level arcane and divine spells.
Getting to 35 fame before level 7 is unlikely though.
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Outside of PFS play there is nolegal way to get MT before level 7. There have been some extremely rules-bending, shady methods used to get around the spellcasting requirements posted on these boards in the past, but none hold up to even casual scrutiny. Going Cleric (or Druid) 3/ Wizard 3 is the fastest way.
There are, however, some slower methods that may appeal to you if you're willing to sacrifice the caster levels. A Sorcerer/Oracle uses only Charisma as a spellcasting stat, which simplifies things a bit. Of course, that pushes entrance to MT off until 9th level. A Cleric/Sorcerer with the Empyreal bloodline from UM uses only Wisdom for both classes and allows you to pick up MT at 8th level.
Unless you know the campaign is going to reach high levels, it's probably not worth it to go for MT through any classes except Cleric (or Druid) and Wizard. In fact, if the campaign is going to wrap up before level 10, as some do, I'd advise you to avoid MT altogether. That said, the Mystic Theurge, and its cousin, the Cerebremancer, are among my favorite prestige classes of all.
What is the benefit of playing a MT?
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What is the benefit of playing a MT?
The benefit is advancing two spellcasting classes at once, gaining spells per level and caster level for each at the same time. The problem is that at best you will be three caster levels behind a single-classed caster of the same level, and therefore will have access to spells that are at least one if not two spell levels lower than that single-classed caster. The Magical Knaak trait can make up for 2 caster levels in one of those classes, but you will always be behind.
At high levels, you have a huge amount of spells, though. A 15th level wizard has 26 spells, not counting bonus spells or school slots. A 15th level cleric has the same, plus 8 more domain spells. A 15th level Mystic Theurge (Cleric 3/Wizard 3/ MT 9) has 44 spells, plus 6 more domain spells, again not counting bonus spells or school slots. Both of those single classed casters have access to 8th level spells, while the Mystic Theurge has only 6th level spells.
What is the benefit of playing a MT?
The only time I've seen the MT really shine is when you have 2 situation specific factors at once.
1) The MT is the only caster in the party.
2) The campaign has the opposite of the 15 minute adventuring day. Constant fights one after the other with alot of them inbetween opportunities for rest/preparation. Then the huge number of spells available can make a difference because the single class caster is likely to be out of spells.
I really like the concept of the MT, but inpractice, it just usually doesn't seem to work out too well.
That's my opinion, for what it's worth (not alot).
If you're going high, the spell synthesis ability at the cap is nice. Most games don't last that long though (character level 16 minimum).
My problem with the MT is that you're selfishly punishing your teammates.
A Clr 3/Wiz 3/MT 1 is really no better than a 4th level cleric -- there's no way you're competing on an equal footing with a 7th level cleric, who's throwing 4th level spells while you're still capped out at 2nd. This means that you're not pulling your weight, which means the rest of the party needs to work 2x harder in order to make up for the lack.
More spells, or a broader range of spells, can never make up for less powerful spells, when it comes to surviving actual adventures.
A mystic theurge is fine as a support character for a party who already has a full single-classed cleric and a full single-classed wizard or sorcerer. It cannot fill either of those roles itself, however.
Getting to 35 fame before level 7 is unlikely though.
The 5 Fame (+1 to a maximum caster level) version should be easily doable though.
There is a super genius class called the magistrate I think used to be called the Magus before UM came out, it starts are a full caster and you can add spells from other class lists. it should count as a bot a 3rd level divine and arcane caster but its only one class the MT is useless unless you grab another level in a casting class so at level 5 you can get MT as a magus 3/ whatever 1.
My problem with the MT is that you're selfishly punishing your teammates.
A Clr 3/Wiz 3/MT 1 is really no better than a 4th level cleric -- there's no way you're competing on an equal footing with a 7th level cleric, who's throwing 4th level spells while you're still capped out at 2nd. This means that you're not pulling your weight, which means the rest of the party needs to work 2x harder in order to make up for the lack.
More spells, or a broader range of spells, can never make up for less powerful spells, when it comes to surviving actual adventures.
A mystic theurge is fine as a support character for a party who already has a full single-classed cleric and a full single-classed wizard or sorcerer. It cannot fill either of those roles itself, however.
They'll get over it. That's like saying Johnny can't make a fighter because Bob already did.
the 5 fame version gives you one level early entry into MT thats true.
i would probably go sorc 1 with crossblooded, level in oracle (probably fire blasting) up to 3, get the extra caster level in oracle to make up for the lost level as part of sorc then keep playing straight oracle until i could get the better version of esoteric training to bump my sorc level up to 4, i'd probably end up with something like sorc 1/oracle 7/mt x with full casting in oracle and 3 levels behind in sorc.
If i were going for a blaster i could easily get full progression casting on the oracle and still qualify for mystic theurge so i could use the extra spells from crossblooded sorc to up my defenses, illusions are one of the things that the divine spell list really misses out on so picking those up with the extra spells you get from sorcerer mystic theurge would be handy. You could also use the theurgy feat to negate your energy resist/immunity worries.
No doubt you could go for something entirely different but that would all be based off one casting stat, if your going to mystic theurge though you could really take advantage by going summoner/cleric, wouldn't be amazingly overpowered but summoner has a really good spell list.
I am recalling what another poster wrote about PrCs: they are designed to be entered early (around 5th level).
They are balanced against levels 5 through 10. Later than that and you are lesser compared to single-classed companions.
This is just yet another problem for the Mystic Theurge. As it is, this PrC is practically unusable by Sorcerers and Oracles.
The only correction I can think of is a homebrew rule: you must have 2 levels of an arcane spell-casting class and 2 levels of a divine spell-casting class (instead of requiring 2nd level spells).
I am recalling what another poster wrote about PrCs: they are designed to be entered early (around 5th level).
They are balanced against levels 5 through 10. Later than that and you are lesser compared to single-classed companions.
This is just yet another problem for the Mystic Theurge. As it is, this PrC is practically unusable by Sorcerers and Oracles.
The only correction I can think of is a homebrew rule: you must have 2 levels of an arcane spell-casting class and 2 levels of a divine spell-casting class (instead of requiring 2nd level spells).
I disagree here. Yes, the class won't really shine in an artificially level-restricted gameplay like PFS. There are lots of homebrew games and party compositions that make the MT quite useable. Also, entering early is not the best option for MT IMO. You should rather have a solid base in one class and then "dip" and progress another.
For example, going wizard 7/cleric 3/ MT x, or cleric 7 / empyreal sorcerer 4/ MT x, or even something wild like ranger 10 / empyreal sorcerer 4 / MT x.It depends on what you want.
I do not see it in any way "practically unusable" by Sorcerers and Oracles. Why do you say that?
I would also like to know which PrC can be entered at 5th level (without the rule-bending cheese)? Most that I know are either 6th level (DD, AT etc.) or 7th level (AA, MT etc.). So this PrC fits right in there.
MT offers a lot of power, and you should pay for that with something. So it's quite good how it is IMO :-)
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"Power" isn't really the right word for a mystic theurge; it's "versatility."
The main strength of a mystic theurge, if played properly, is having a spell for every situation. They can banish outsiders, buff, control, damage, debuff, heal, remove status effects, etc.; also, unlike the single-class witch (and to a lesser extent the druid), their spell lists are not limited to a small selection for any given function. Nor are they restricted from casting the most powerful spells (i.e., 8th and 9th level spells) in at least one of their base spellcasting classes (assuming that it's a primary casting class: cleric, druid, oracle, sorcerer, witch, wizard): a cleric 7/wizard 3/mystic theurge 10 or wizard 7/druid 3/mystic theurge 10 still gains 9th level spells; even a cleric 6/bard 4/mystic theurge 10 or a sorcerer 6/oracle 4/mystic theurge 10 gains 8th level spells.
That said, a mystic theurge requires a certain amount of advance planning to pull off. It's definitely more complex than most characters and resource management is key. Some things that everyone considering a mystic theurge should do before even assigning/rolling ability scores:
1) Pick which class you want to favor: arcane or divine. This is critical, because it determines many choices that can only be made at character creation. From ability score distribution to race, favored class, etc. you need to know if are you a divine caster incorporating arcane magic or an arcane caster incorporating divine magic.
2) Choose your race for complimentary racial traits and/or alternate favored class bonus(es) based on your decision in 1).
3) If available, take the trait Magical Knack in your "primary" class. One of the biggest drawbacks of the mystic theurge is the hit to caster level; IMO, this is even more significant than the hit to spell progression. Note that in Pathfinder Society, Magical Knack is not allowed; this makes playing a mystic theurge (or any multiclassed spellcaster) more difficult.
4) Even more so than a single-classed wizard, the mystic theurge benefits from magic item creation feats. A mystic theurge with the Scribe Scroll and Craft Wand feats, as well as a reasonable amount of downtime (a couple days to a week in between adventures) can easily be the "Batman" of a mid-level party (about 6th-9th level): almost always available with a "useful" spell, either prepared or via a scroll or wand. A well played/prepared mystic theurge should never lack for something to do, even if it's not an automatic "I win (as long as the target(s) fail their save)" choice. Again, because item creation feats are not allowed in Pathfinder Society, this makes playing a mystic theurge more difficult because it eliminates much of the character's potential versatility.
5) Look for synergies between arcane and divine spells. In many cases, the "power" of the mystic theurge is in casting combinations of spells, rather than a single powerful spell: stackable buffs, spectral hand plus cure/inflict spells, etc.
6) A mystic theurge works best in a party that lacks another primary caster or in which the other primary casters are also multi-classing (i.e., a rogue/wizard/arcane trickster, an oracle/paladin/holy vindicator, a barbarian/sorcerer/dragon disciple/eldritch knight, etc.). A mystic theurge is weakest around 5th-9th level, just about the same time that single-class primary casters are hitting their stride; the mystic theurge "catches up" around 12th-15th level and actually (IMO) surpasses single-class casters around 16th-18th level. If the party lacks other primary casters or the other primary casters are also multi-classing, it helps prevent the mystic theurge from being "overshadowed" before "coming into their own."
"Power" isn't really the right word for a mystic theurge; it's "versatility."
Love everything about this
The two builds that I have found that work are the Swiss Army Buff Monkey (Lead wizard, go cleric, grab item creation feats) and Mr Snuggle's Cheerleader (Lead druid, grab a pet and spend some feats and stats on matching your pet level)
Its also not just about power, its about having something cool to do every round. I'm 18 sessions into a Kingmaker Campaign and I can count on one hand the amount of times I've done damage directly but I spent nearly every action in a valuable manner.
An enlarged BSF here, a touch of luck there and a bless for the entire party and the Pre Mystic Theurge is carrying his own weight even during the awkward levels.
or just witch. Who can cast both divine and arcane. (green knights book)
Then youll have a witch 4/Mystic theurge 10... vasting as a lvl 24 witch. :p
Or do it more legit (less broken), witch 4/cleric 1... and have nearly full witch progression, while having wisdom as the prime for both classes.
Witches do not cast divine spells, they cast arcane versions of spells which are normally divine. Like bards.
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Some cheesy ways from earlier threads about this topic:
3 Levels in arcane class, 1 level in divine class. With the investment of one feat and one trait (Magical Lineage and Heighten Spell) you can select a 1st level spell from your divine class, Heighten it to level 2, and then reduce the spell slot cost back to level 1. This fulfills the requirement and allows entry to MT at level 5.
Alternately, you take 1 arcane level, 1 divine, then select a spell on both lists for Magical Lineage. This allows entry to MT at level 3.
Also the wording for Candle of Invocation seems pretty promising for the the same reason. Read "spells normally unavailable" below.
Candle of Invocation
Aura strong conjuration; CL 17th
Slot none; Price 8,400 gp; Weight 1/2 lb.
Description
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A cleric whose alignment matches the candle's operates as if two levels higher for purposes of determining spells per day if he burns the candle during or just prior to his spell preparation time. He can even cast spells normally unavailable to him as if he were of that higher level, but only so long as the candle continues to burn.
In addition, burning a candle also allows the owner to cast a gate spell, the respondent being of the same alignment as the candle, but the taper is immediately consumed in the process.
Wow.
I impressed with how knowledgeable is this thread. I want some more good advice from the posters here.
Is it better to front load or to back load the MT? Should I get most of my class levels before entering the PrC or should I enter as soon as possible?
For example, should I be a wizard 7, cleric 3 and then enter the Mystic Theurge PrC OR should I be a wizard 3, cleric 3, mystic theurge 10 and then enter the Loremaster PrC for my wizard?
For your answer, please assume I am not a member of the Pathfinder Society and do not know about Fame or Eclectic. Thanks!
Witches do not cast divine spells, they cast arcane versions of spells which are normally divine. Like bards.
http://www.greenronin.com/images/product/witches_mock_150.jpg
This witch class does.
Which witch are you talking about which has the the ability cast whichever type of spell he disires?
The problem with sorcerer/oracle theurges is they completely cut out nearly all of the sorcerer/oracle class abilities and leave them with barely a handful of spells, not only do you have to go 4 levels to get second level spells and then you only get a single 2nd level spell.
Its much better to go with one of the classes that gains its most important abilities at levels 1-3.
A Clr 3/Wiz 3/MT 1 is really no better than a 4th level cleric -- there's no way you're competing on an equal footing with a 7th level cleric, who's throwing 4th level spells while you're still capped out at 2nd. This means that you're not pulling your weight, which means the rest of the party needs to work 2x harder in order to make up for the lack.They'll get over it. That's like saying Johnny can't make a fighter because Bob already did.
No, it's like saying Johnny shouldn't make a 4th level fighter and claim it's an adequate front-line combatant for a group with a 7th level cleric, a 7th level wizard, and a 7th level rogue. I'm saying that if Bob has a 7th level fighter who can do your job for you, however, then your 4th level guy can tag along without dooming the group to an ignominious death.
If your going to use esoteric training your better to back load, for standard mt your better to front load to get into it as soon as possible.
Some cheesy ways from earlier threads about this topic:
3 Levels in arcane class, 1 level in divine class. With the investment of one feat and one trait (Magical Lineage and Heighten Spell) you can select a 1st level spell from your divine class, Heighten it to level 2, and then reduce the spell slot cost back to level 1. This fulfills the requirement and allows entry to MT at level 5.
Alternately, you take 1 arcane level, 1 divine, then select a spell on both lists for Magical Lineage. This allows entry to MT at level 3.
Also the wording for Candle of Invocation seems pretty promising for the the same reason. Read "spells normally unavailable" below.
Candle of Invocation
Aura strong conjuration; CL 17th
Slot none; Price 8,400 gp; Weight 1/2 lb.Description
...
A cleric whose alignment matches the candle's operates as if two levels higher for purposes of determining spells per day if he burns the candle during or just prior to his spell preparation time. He can even cast spells normally unavailable to him as if he were of that higher level, but only so long as the candle continues to burn.In addition, burning a candle also allows the owner to cast a gate spell, the respondent being of the same alignment as the candle, but the taper is immediately consumed in the process.
Re: Magical Lineage + Heighten Spell: ... Huh. That's . . . very cheesy, but I'm having trouble finding fault with it other than forcing an interpretation of "able to cast 2nd level divine spells".
Re: Candle of Invocation: I'd rule that you're a mystic theurge as long as you have a candle burning and that mystic theurge-granted abilities can't be a prerequisite for mystic theurge. So, better have a lot of candles to maintain your class prerequisite. : D
No, it's like saying Johnny shouldn't make a 4th level fighter and claim it's an adequate front-line combatant for a group with a 7th level cleric, a 7th level wizard, and a 7th level rogue. I'm saying that if Bob has a 7th level fighter who can do your job for you, however, then your 4th level guy can tag along without dooming the group to an ignominious death.A Clr 3/Wiz 3/MT 1 is really no better than a 4th level cleric -- there's no way you're competing on an equal footing with a 7th level cleric, who's throwing 4th level spells while you're still capped out at 2nd. This means that you're not pulling your weight, which means the rest of the party needs to work 2x harder in order to make up for the lack.They'll get over it. That's like saying Johnny can't make a fighter because Bob already did.
Glad I don't play with you. Nobody in my group is going to tell me whether I can multiclass. If the GM is okay with it, I'll play a freaking expert.
People these days and their WOW raider-like obsession with party balance. So long as fun is being had, who cares if the character is rough going for a few levels?
No, it's like saying Johnny shouldn't make a 4th level fighter and claim it's an adequate front-line combatant for a group with a 7th level cleric, a 7th level wizard, and a 7th level rogue. I'm saying that if Bob has a 7th level fighter who can do your job for you, however, then your 4th level guy can tag along without dooming the group to an ignominious death.A Clr 3/Wiz 3/MT 1 is really no better than a 4th level cleric -- there's no way you're competing on an equal footing with a 7th level cleric, who's throwing 4th level spells while you're still capped out at 2nd. This means that you're not pulling your weight, which means the rest of the party needs to work 2x harder in order to make up for the lack.They'll get over it. That's like saying Johnny can't make a fighter because Bob already did.
This isn't a very good example. A 4th level fighter has a fraction of the HP/saves of a 7th level fighter, which is why they'll struggle. A mystic theurge isn't quite the same, is it?
A mystic theurge, at least early on, struggles to cast offensively and tends to play a heavy support role for the rest of the group. There are lots of buffs and no-save crowd control spells available for a well-played MT to rely on. Later you'll have offensive spells from two classes to rely on, as well as lots of spells for utility and bandaging up your allies.
Glad I don't play with you. Nobody in my group is going to tell me whether I can multiclass. If the GM is okay with it, I'll play a freaking expert.
People these days and their WOW raider-like obsession with party balance. So long as fun is being had, who cares if the character is rough going for a few levels?
There's a lot of fun to be had playing gimped NPCs. There's also a lot of fun to be had playing optimized hunter-killer teams. What's usually not fun at all is crossing the signals, and playing the one in a group expecting the other.
So I'd say MT is great for a game in which everyone is pretty much looking to be some version of the Three Stooges, and no one expects hard-core challenges. That means that playing Age of Worms, for example, is out; instead, the DM will need to provide more modest challenges that don't punish incompetence too harshly, and that sort of encourage everyone to sort of bumble along. That kind of campaign can be a lot of fun, don't get me wrong.
But it can also be fun to face challenges that are level-difficult, and force the party to actually, you know, cooperate and refine their group tactics, in order to survive. If you play a MT in that kind of a campaign, you kill the whole party.
So it depends on the type of game you're playing in, and it's important to communicate those expectations in advance, not just declare you'll damn well play whatever you want and to hell with the rest of the group.
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No, it's like saying Johnny shouldn't make a 4th level fighter and claim it's an adequate front-line combatant for a group with a 7th level cleric, a 7th level wizard, and a 7th level rogue. I'm saying that if Bob has a 7th level fighter who can do your job for you, however, then your 4th level guy can tag along without dooming the group to an ignominious death.A Clr 3/Wiz 3/MT 1 is really no better than a 4th level cleric -- there's no way you're competing on an equal footing with a 7th level cleric, who's throwing 4th level spells while you're still capped out at 2nd. This means that you're not pulling your weight, which means the rest of the party needs to work 2x harder in order to make up for the lack.They'll get over it. That's like saying Johnny can't make a fighter because Bob already did.Glad I don't play with you. Nobody in my group is going to tell me whether I can multiclass. If the GM is okay with it, I'll play a freaking expert.
People these days and their WOW raider-like obsession with party balance. So long as fun is being had, who cares if the character is rough going for a few levels?
This can be flipped around quite easily as well.
"Nobody tells me I can single class. I'll play a freaking level 1 in all base classes character if I want. At level 20, I'll have 1 level in every base class, and 1 level in whatever prestige class that I want."
Do you see why this is an issue? It's not a "WOW raider-like obsession with party balance", but rather if a party member is not carrying their weight, why would we keep him around? That applies to characters and players. It wastes people's time, possibly their own when they realize all the short comings of a bad character.
No, it's like saying Johnny shouldn't make a 4th level fighter and claim it's an adequate front-line combatant for a group with a 7th level cleric, a 7th level wizard, and a 7th level rogue. I'm saying that if Bob has a 7th level fighter who can do your job for you, however, then your 4th level guy can tag along without dooming the group to an ignominious death.A Clr 3/Wiz 3/MT 1 is really no better than a 4th level cleric -- there's no way you're competing on an equal footing with a 7th level cleric, who's throwing 4th level spells while you're still capped out at 2nd. This means that you're not pulling your weight, which means the rest of the party needs to work 2x harder in order to make up for the lack.They'll get over it. That's like saying Johnny can't make a fighter because Bob already did.Glad I don't play with you. Nobody in my group is going to tell me whether I can multiclass. If the GM is okay with it, I'll play a freaking expert.
People these days and their WOW raider-like obsession with party balance. So long as fun is being had, who cares if the character is rough going for a few levels?
This can be flipped around quite easily as well.
"Nobody tells me I can single class. I'll play a freaking level 1 in all base classes character if I want. At level 20, I'll have 1 level in every base class, and 1 level in whatever prestige class that I want."
Do you see why this is an issue? It's not a "WOW raider-like obsession with party balance", but rather if a party member is not carrying their weight, why would we keep him around? That applies to characters and players. It wastes people's time, possibly their own when they realize all the short comings of a bad character.
That's a bit contrived, don't you think? Might as well say they spend all of their feats on various Skill Focus (Profession) while you're at it. We're talking about a perfectly viable core prestige class.
Besides, if the character is too dead-weight, they'll end up dead, and it'll be a non-issue. Plus, not all groups of adventurers care about whether a particular person is "pulling their weight". Sometimes there are RP or fluff reasons to have someone around. Where would Middle-Earth be if Aragorn had decided that Frodo couldn't pull his weight?
Glad I don't play with you. Nobody in my group is going to tell me whether I can multiclass. If the GM is okay with it, I'll play a freaking expert.
People these days and their WOW raider-like obsession with party balance. So long as fun is being had, who cares if the character is rough going for a few levels?
There's a lot of fun to be had playing gimped NPCs. There's also a lot of fun to be had playing optimized hunter-killer teams. What's usually not fun at all is crossing the signals, and playing the one in a group expecting the other.
So I'd say MT is great for a game in which everyone is pretty much looking to be some version of the Three Stooges, and no one expects hard-core challenges. That means that playing Age of Worms, for example, is out; instead, the DM will need to provide more modest challenges that don't punish incompetence too harshly, and that sort of encourage everyone to sort of bumble along. That kind of campaign can be a lot of fun, don't get me wrong.
But it can also be fun to face challenges that are level-difficult, and force the party to actually, you know, cooperate and refine their group tactics, in order to survive. If you play a MT in that kind of a campaign, you kill the whole party.
So it depends on the type of game you're playing in, and it's important to communicate those expectations in advance, not just declare you'll damn well play whatever you want and to hell with the rest of the group.
I think you seriously underestimate the potential of MT.
I think you seriously underestimate the potential of MT.
In turn, I suspect you've never played in a challenging campaign with someone else who insisted on playing sn MT. My experience has been that they really, really suck, especially while trying to qualify. Then again, I've never seen one actually survive past the first couple of levels in the PrC.
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I currently have a 12 level Mystic Theurge character in Pathfinder Society Organized Play. He is 3rd lvl cleric (of Pharasma)/ 3rd lvl Wizard (Necromancer)/ 6th level Mystic.
I have noticed that some people think that such a character wouldn't be pulling his own weight in a party.
Yes, my character didn't have the evocation spells to drop masses of creatures...but I did not build my character to be an evoker.
My character had a nice wide range of spells to draw upon. He would summon monsters to help as "speed bumps" and flanking partners for rogues and fighters. My character always had the buff spells to help the party. Also he was the one with the Darkvsion, Day light, see invisibility, and invisibility purge spells.
What else? oh there is the Haste, Prayer, Bless, Bane, Slow combination can work wonders on a combat....tilting the odds in the partyies favor.
Undead bothering you? my character had the Repose domain....with the Gentle rest ability and a spectral hand, my character could slap undead silly---stagger them with no save.......While we are on spectral hand i can use the spectral hand spell to channel
Healing Domain-Rebuke Undeath, Repose Domain- Gentle rest- to stagger the living and undead, Necromancy school- grave touch- opponent is shaken then frightened....
also there are the various touch spells, this includes healing spells all of the cure spells......
I will admit the 2d6 channel energy isn't much...but, in a pinch, he can prevent his team mates from dying, and help them regain consciousness.
and here is a neat trick you can use the spell Arcane eye, and specral hand, send them into another room entirely, and deliver touch spells etc.
Oh i almost forgot...the Wizard's arcane bond ability- very useful.
So I think that my character did carry his weight through his carrier. Often my character at a PFS table, would be the only healer at the table. In a pinch i could use the combined spells class ability, to tailor my spell selection to what the party needed.
Well, It's not a class for everyone, and as Dragon Chess Player mentioned earlier, the Mystic Theurge has a slower march to "power" but they are incredibly flexible, and I enjoy playing them.
Yes, my character didn't have the evocation spells to drop masses of creatures...but I did not build my character to be an evoker.
Just as a note, an evoker is arguably as gimpy in a hard-core game as a MT, so your post isn't exactly one that's going to convince me of your point. That's like saying, "I know the 3.5e Monk isn't exactly a Warrior, but it's still awesomely powerful!"
Glad I don't play with you.With an attitude like that, we're glad you don't play with us either.
Why am I not surprised to find WOW is involved?