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Don't you think this post is Abit on the nerd rage side? I vote you leave the guy alone, he's been bashed to death already.
He's a good writer, I'd buy his stuff again if he wrote for pathfinder.
The thread title itself is "over the dramatic top" to say the least. Don't buy his future stuff (if he does any) if you feel that strongly.
I did not preorder his Savage Coast, but even if I did, I would still buy his Paizo stuff. I just wouldn't preorder anywhere else but here at Paizo. I don't believe in preorder/kickstarter programs anyway.
Lol, I meant paying for development costs from an end users perspective. :)
(for other peoples clarification)
Lol, I meant paying for development costs from an end users perspective. :)
(for other peoples clarification)
Shhh.
I don't know if you realize this, but you pay for development costs-- it's just a matter of whether you pay for it before the book is published or afterwards.
When you join a kickstarter project, you make sure the book happens and (optimally) get to help it come into existence, rather than hope a publisher will decide to fund it. Kickstarter and crowdfunding, like Open Design or Rite Publishing, provide the end user a more direct voice about what kinds of products are available for purchase.
-Ben.
Can't make any promises, yet. I am pretty far out of the loop and just getting back on my feet. I am, however, open to the idea of some day putting finger to keyboard to create gaming content again. I just don't want to rush anything, and I don't even want to DREAM of this until the dreaded saga of Razor Coast comes to its end.
One thing is certain, I'll NEVER attempt to run my own publishing house again. From here on out if I ever did tackle anything it would be strictly as a freelancer.
Thanks for the encouragement though!
Nick
Speaking for myself, nothing says "I'm sorry" like cash (i.e. I'm still waiting for my refund).
But if he doesn't have then he doesn't have. On to the next bubble....
Hi Radavel!
If you contact the addy Lou put up, you will indeed get your money back! I've finally managed to scrape together the money to refund everyone's cash. So sorry for the delay on the refunds (Lou will get to them within a month). He's an amazing friend for taking point on this - I am Captain Obvious for even stating that.
Wasn't Logue's whole Savage Coast thing just like a kickstarter program? ;) I'm aware that buying something does pay development costs (either recovering costs later, or in future projects), I'm just not on board with the whole practice of paying for development and then paying for the product. Preordering is different as I'm leaving a deposit (or committing to buy) for that specific product then paying the balance off at release instead of more than the original price tag with Kickstarter.
Welcome back, Nic. I haven't kept up with the Savage Coast thread but good luck with the freelancing. I've always enjoyed your works.
But I do have the option to change my mind and accept a finished book, yes?
Oh Yes! Lou is hoping to release RC for me.
Wasn't Logue's whole Savage Coast thing just like a kickstarter program? ;) I'm aware that buying something does pay development costs (either recovering costs later, or in future projects), I'm just not on board with the whole practice of paying for development and then paying for the product. Preordering is different as I'm leaving a deposit (or committing to buy) for that specific product then paying the balance off at release instead of more than the original price tag with Kickstarter.
^_- (Razor Coast. Savage Coast is a Paizo product, iirc)
Are you looking at the same projects I'm looking at?
Projects generally include the final product in the support costs. There have only been a couple I've seen which didn't. Additional rewards are just that, additional for people who *really* want to see a project come to fruition or want the additional perks being offered. And for patronage projects, you're also looking at the 6+ months of content, education, and interaction which come with being a part of the project, learning how the book is assembled, brainstorming, helping shape content, learning how to pitch, playtesting, proofreading, being invested in the book beyond just picking it up in the FLGS. That's much more than just a pre-order.
-Ben.
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Sunderstone -
Your response is one of those posts where you're reacting without reading.
There is no rage, no nerdness, no dramatic. And I say exactly the opposite of what you are suggesting that I'm saying.
I'm saying that I specifically look forward to Logue's stuff in the future. I'm saying that I think that's what closes the circle.
And I also acknowledge that this gamer stuff is a very small piece of the guy's larger life.
In the grand scheme of things, Logue never did anything all that bad and in real-life terms he has an absolute clean slate so far as I'm concerned.
But this conversation here, on this message board, is about our community and this shared hobby.
I'm suggesting that the way to bring this full circle is for him to actually contribute something really meaningful again.
That's not ragey sort of suggestion, my friend.
--Marsh
Not ragey, but to state that the only way for Nic to "fully redeem" himself is to begin putting material out again does smack of a sense of entitlement.
Nic screwed up. He has acknowledged this, has apologized profusely and is striving to make financial amends. What he has and is doing is what he needs to do to redeem himself. Putting together new material would be excellent, and I hope it comes to fruition, but it is in no means needed for him to "fully redeem" himself.
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But I do have the option to change my mind and accept a finished book, yes?Oh Yes! Lou is hoping to release RC for me.Cool. :-)
Hey Radavel,
Just to be totally clear so you don't wind up somewhere you don't want to be: you can ask for your money back (and get it) or "let it ride".IF RC ever comes out and IF you ask for your money back, get it back, then change your mind later, RC will be full price for you. Don't know what that hypothetical, maybe someday price might be, but it'll be more than your pre-order price for sure (reasons for that in the other thread).
IF you let it ride, the time will come when I'll either "call it" -- ending my potential involvement -- or we put RC out. IF we put RC out, and you "let it ride" you get RC for the pre-order price as originally promised, lo these many years ago.
Is this a commitment to publishing RC? No. Period.
But you have to know about the slim possibility because there is a tiny chance you could wind up feeling tricked out of getting RC at the pre-order price, and NOBODY wants that.
More details here.
EDIT: Just saw that you saw that thread, which has nothing to do with the movie franchise SAW.
(Razor Coast. Savage Coast is a Paizo product, iirc)
A TSR product actually. The Savage Coast was a region in TSR's Mystara (or Known World) setting. UI was first explored in the expert set module X9 ("The Savage Coast") and later expanded for AD&D.
(Razor Coast. Savage Coast is a Paizo product, iirc)A TSR product actually. The Savage Coast was a region in TSR's Mystara (or Known World) setting. UI was first explored in the expert set module X9 ("The Savage Coast") and later expanded for AD&D.
Thank you. I knew it was an existing product. That was the cinnabar setting, wasn't it?
Razor Coast -> Savage Coast -> Savage Tide
It was a walk to get there, but I knew I was conflating them somehow. :)
-Ben.
Holy moley, i thought this was an april fools...
I'm still int for the long run, and i got my refund for the other sinister product which i preordered.
Go Lou!
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A very, very wise game designer told me you weren't a veteran in this business until A: You had a project you finished fail to pay you for 12 or more months, and B: You turn over a project you signed a contract for 12 or more months late.
At the time, I scoffed. I had never been late on a deadline, and I simply didn't do business with people who weren't going to pay me on time.
Now, I am a veteran.
Nick, if you ever do want to get even the smallest thing written (and let someone else handle all the business end) drop me a line. I can always use another veteran game designer of your skill.
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Nick, if you ever do want to get even the smallest thing written (and let someone else handle all the business end) drop me a line. I can always use another veteran game designer of your skill.
I will certainly attest to how awesome Owen is to work with!
Oh, and it looks like, sadly, I am apparently 50% veteran ...
Kobold Press
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Open Design is on-board with the resumption of Logue articles in Kobold Quarterly or Logue-tastic adventures. Perhaps one of 13 Midgard adventures? I think that would be tons of fun, given just how good Nick's last Zobeck adventure was.
OTOH, saying Nick *has* to write stuff? That's a troll or someone with a really strange sense of how the world works.
Owen, by your metric I'm apparently 0% veteran. I'll go work on that. :)
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Owen, by your metric I'm apparently 0% veteran. I'll go work on that. :)
I'll hire you to write something without paying you if you want to up that percentage. ;)
I'll agree with Wolfgang.
I like(d?) Logues content. I'd be happy to see him write more. To think he Has to? Not how i see it. The mans been through rough stuff, he should be doing whatever he feels he needs to do to get his feet back under him and his head screwed back on crooked.(normal)
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Kobold Press
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Owen, by your metric I'm apparently 0% veteran. I'll go work on that. :)I'll hire you to write something without paying you if you want to up that percentage. ;)
Well, I promise to not deliver it until more than a year after the deadline. Maybe longer. That way, I go directly to 100%. :)
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It'd be a tragic and useless loss to the gaming community if we never get another Nicolas Logue adventure.
Nick Logue is the one of the two REASONS why i followed Pathfinder from the early days. Nick adventures were freaking awesome. Most of it is 3.5 and I still use it as the stories are fun to play, fun to prep, and fun to laugh maniacally thinking evil thoughts.
I have forgiven him of his follies as we all make a huge mistake in life sooner or later and Tim is right. It would be tragic if we never got him back in the writers seat again.
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Actually the only reason Nick should put fingers to keyboard is if he wants to do it. His motivation should not be redemption or trying to prove anything. His motivation should be because he wants to write a gaming product.
Mr Logue, should you choose to write anything I will hand over little bits of green paper for it. Equally should you choose to let Hook Mountain Massacre et al be your contribution and leave it there, then that is more than enough for anyone. Your contributions already stand for themselves.
The only thing Nick owes is a purely financial matter. That is being addressed. Creatively he does not owe the community anything. Neil Gaiman once publicly told over entitled Game of Thrones fans that George R R Martin was not their b***h. Whilst that language is a tad strong the sentiment also applies here.
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First, I'd like to say 'hi' to Mr. Logue, as I've missed your presence both on the forums and in my games (adventure-wise for the latter).
Hi!
Come back when you're ready to do so. As one who has personally enjoyed tormenting my players with your creations, I would appreciate the opportunity to do so again.
I have hunted down every Nick Logue adventure, and incorporated them all into my "Razor Coast" campaign, including the entire Chimes at Midnight Arc, Blackmaw etc. Interestingly, the only product i have been unable to get a hand on is Blood of the Gorgon (looks longingly at Wulfgang); even subscribed to the midgard setting patronage so that i could purchase it. Alas, such an option was not available.
Open Design is on-board with the resumption of Logue articles in Kobold Quarterly or Logue-tastic adventures. Perhaps one of 13 Midgard adventures? I think that would be tons of fun, given just how good Nick's last Zobeck adventure was.
Oh, now, Nic in Midgard Tales would be AWESOME!!! What do you say, Nick?
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Oh, now, Nic in Midgard Tales would be AWESOME!!! What do you say, Nick?Open Design is on-board with the resumption of Logue articles in Kobold Quarterly or Logue-tastic adventures. Perhaps one of 13 Midgard adventures? I think that would be tons of fun, given just how good Nick's last Zobeck adventure was.
Yeah ... that would be pretty great!
Can't make any promises, yet. I am pretty far out of the loop and just getting back on my feet. I am, however, open to the idea of some day putting finger to keyboard to create gaming content again. I just don't want to rush anything, and I don't even want to DREAM of this until the dreaded saga of Razor Coast comes to its end.
One thing is certain, I'll NEVER attempt to run my own publishing house again. From here on out if I ever did tackle anything it would be strictly as a freelancer.
Thanks for the encouragement though!
Nick
Nick,
I'm glad to have you back. And I hope that when this is all settled, that we can continue to get some great stories and adventures from you.
Yeah, there were some bad feelings for a while. But I'm looking forward to seeing what comes next. (and hoping that SC still comes out.)
Nicky!
I am so pleased one of my three favorite game designers is back! And I'm really happy to hear people who pre-ordered your awesome-looking book are getting taken care of!
Welcome back, Nicky!