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I'm the GM. In a party of casual roleplay-focused players, I have one optimized PC (weapon-master fighter) who routinely deals 100+ damage on full attacks, at Level 9. First three attacks are all +20 to hit due to manyshot and haste. He also has Clustered Shots, so DR isn't very helpful.
I've had some success with tougher monsters, but I don't want them to be so tough that the other players feel like they're not contributing.
I've also used weather effects, wind wall, control winds, control water, slow, dazing and stunning effects, disarm, sunder, charm and dominate, catch arrows, grapple, etc.
Problem is, most of these tactics are wearing thin, and when I use them it's very obvious to the group that I'm designing encounters around this one guy's PC.
Any suggestions to add more variety to my tactics or make things more subtle?
Audit. Make sure that he's actually got his numbers correct.
Avoid. If the majority of players are RP focused, do more of that. Talk to every NPC in town, and those archery feats don't do much.
Then, when it is time to fight, the best way is to add terrain, and make sure it's not a featureless plain that you're fighting on. Doorways, walls, trees, all of that stuff adds up.
And, you can always rush the guy. Lots of smaller opponents that get in close prevent the 5ft step and full attack routine.
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so many ways to stop an archer.
darness, obscuring mist, or any wall spell will take him out of the fight.
cover, concealment, or making him blind will reduce his chances of hitting drastically.
sunder, disarm, tripping , prone means he cant shoot his bow, are all ways to stop him mundanely
and most of all TREES TREES TREES AND MORE TREES, the line of sight necessity is a horrible weakness for archers.
archers are the most vulnerable type of character in the game. thats why they hit like mack trucks, because i can shut them down with a first level spell even at 20th level.
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An archer that plays as a weapon master could be more efficient by going as a straight archer. Combat maneuvers at range and not provoking AoO when shooting are way more effective to deal with most foes.
Are you enforcing cover bonuses/penalty against creatures fighting in melee/concealment from smoke, wind, darkness ?
Wind wall is a good classic at any level, Sound Wall close to an archer ready to full attack means 2d4 damage by arrow hitting the wall to all nearby creatures. Fickle Winds, harsh climate,
In the common game, an archer is the guy with the most damage-at-no-risk potential, but the ways to forbid him from attacking important foes are so common that it usually relegates him to deal with common foes while melee classes go toe-to-toe with bad guys.
Our game's archer was the biggest damage dealer before his death, but I can't remember a bad guy that had no way to negate ranged attaks and made him use his hail of arrows against lower enemies. All the solutions you proposed are good, one of my faves is the classic abundant step/grapple monk.
You don't have to create encounters made only to deal with the archer and even less if it makes the game less enyable for others ; but at higher levels, it's common to believe than an intelligent creature will have ways to deal with ranged attacks since after all, they are so efficient. Snatch arrow gloves + deflect arrows negates three arrows by round and can be made with two cheap magic items.
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Audit. Make sure that he's actually got his numbers correct.
His sheet is legit.
Avoid. If the majority of players are RP focused, do more of that. Talk to every NPC in town, and those archery feats don't do much.
Already do this. Combat accounts for maybe 20% of our play time. I just want to even things out a little.
Then, when it is time to fight, the best way is to add terrain, and make sure it's not a featureless plain that you're fighting on. Doorways, walls, trees, all of that stuff adds up.
And, you can always rush the guy. Lots of smaller opponents that get in close prevent the 5ft step and full attack routine.
I should mention that this is a nautical campaign, and enemies tend to be in the water or on other ships. He's obviously less useful in submarine combat, but that doesn't happen a whole lot yet.
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Swarms - Half or no damage from his attacks. Anything with immunity to piercing damage is obviously a problem for archers.
Reach - Get AoO unless he moves more than reach away... which nerfs his number of attacks.
Lots of weak creatures - All get AoO on him when he fires.
Enemy archers - If he's the only one with the range to target them then they're going to target him too.
Nautical eh? Perfect time to introduce weather effects. Precipitation in the stormy seas and early morning fog are both great ways to lower his chance of hitting without making him feel useless.
Fights on islands with large overgrowth or a seaside cave with no lighting. There are plenty of chances for cover in either of those spots.
If the party is famous the enemies who heard about them might specifically start preparing for their strong points - don't be afraid to let the PCs know that others asked of them, this way you can easily explain why they use anti-archery tactics.
Also, consider incorporeal monsters (unless he has ghost touch) or evil mind-controlers that are using charmed or dominated innocent folks (or even party members) as a living shields or opponents that have to be taken alive. Bows generally tend to be poor at dealing nonlethal damage and are risky when you try to capture someone alive.
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Alternatively, if it's to the point where he makes the rest of the party useless in combat, just take him aside and ask him to tone it down a little. Let other people shine from time to time. If he's a decent person, he'll have no issues letting other people shine in combat at times.
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If the other PCs have not built towards combat why should they feel slighted by not being as able as the one who did? Does the fighter feel slighted that the others are better during the 80% of the campaign that isn't combat?
Nobody feels slighted. I'm merely interested in keeping everyone engaged during all different kinds of encounters.
This particular player is very creative and enthusiastic, so he does just fine in the RP segments despite being a fighter.
He's a fighter.. let him shine in combat. You say it's only 20% of the campaign.. so even if he's 100% of the combat.. maybe that's about right?
When a DM specifically targets and looks to mitigate a PC it shines through. Rather simply represent the NPCs properly and things work out so much nicer.
Right- let him shine 20% of the time, after all he's 25% of the party (or so) right?. Doggan also gives good advice.
However, here's a few things that may slow him down- swarms. Or lots of minions who attack from all sides, so that he can;t fall back and attack, unless he takes lots of AoO's. Really getting, having the party attacked from all sides by 10 kolbolds per member can really show the value to the Tank and make the archer and maybe the wizard get a little scared. Another thing- attack by some sort of kraken, where the tentacles can reach him, but he can;t hit the body of the critter as it's under the ship.
Who else is in the party?
An enemy archer dealing 100+ damage to him when he's exposed after a full attack may inspire him to be a bit more careful about those full attack actions.
If he sits out there cranking damage, someone or something should be cranking damage on him, it's a rule. His mega damage routine should be something he deals out as a finisher. In between, he should be hunting for cover and making shots on the run to avoid being targetted himself.
Basically, threaten the archer and punish the archer for being exposed, just like a caster, and watch his tactics evolve.
==Aelryinth
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Who else is in the party?Druid who spends a lot time in dire shark form.
Buffer bard.
Halfling monk who deals almost as much damage as the archer, but her to-hit is way worse.
Controller/debuffer witch. Tends to spend most of her time keeping things open for the archer to do his thing.
Sounds like the Bard and Witch probably already feel like significant participants.
Probably the Druid too, if he's effective as a damage dealer. If he's not, well, that is a problem.
The Halfling should perhaps recieve a boost of some sort...throw in an Amulet of Mighty Fists with a high pure enhancement bonus maybe?
It'll go to whichever of the Druid and Monk the party feels is less efectibve (and the other may get a hand-me-down), so it'll help them out while being useless to the archer.
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Throw in some enemy druids who control the weather to give themselves an edge. Have pirates throw up tower shield-esque cover during ship battles that they can hide behind.
Do your guys go prone when they realize someone is shooting at them? A prone wizard can cast as normal but gets +4 to his AC, more if he's put himself behind something bulky.
A few other things you may want to consider.
One is illusions, lots of illusions - some "enemy" go down; some stay standing, with arrows sticking out of them, laughing at the archer; some walls that block line of sight; some appear to be summoned flying creatures that are going after him - mix it up with some of that being real - wall of force, a real summoned creature, etc.. Keep the archer guessing.
Depending on the the time of day, another would be to have the enemy have darkness on a caltrop, that is dropped into a small ceramic ball (to stop the darkness from spreading) and use a sling, a small summoned creature, etc.. to have it drop and shatter next to the archer.
A foe with Deflect Arrows or gloves of arrow snaring can stop quite a few shots over time.
As levels go up it could be a lot worse.
The fighter could get Improved Precise Shot to ignore anything less that full cover and full concealment. He could have Point Blank Master so no attack of opportunity.
I found archery gets insane at higher levels. At level 16 I had archer ranger in my group that would kill things so fast it was just stupid. But that's not the worst of it. The real problem is higher level enemy archers. So I can let the Ranger shine but if I used that build against them or even a fraction of the build I found I'm killing at least one PC in that type of encounter. I one rounded the Paladin that way at the end of our King Maker game.
Only solution I've found is liberal use of the Fickle winds spell.
I've got a similar "problem" in my campaign; enjoying these suggestions.
Does he have a good Perception? A Rogue (or Rogues) sneaking up on him could give him a fright.
Try to include things in combat that don't involve shooting things; climbing, jumping, keeping the ship going in the right direction, etc. "The ship is capsizing - it's almost on its side! Everyone moves 10 ft. to the left each turn until the ship is righted. If you don't succeed on a Acrobatics check to balance, you're flat-footed until the beginning of your next turn."
I think the "non-lethal" suggestion has already been done, but try having opponents the party inherently doesn't want to kill (privateers from a kingdom they don't want to start a war with, the captain has a bounty on his head that can only be cashed in if he's captured alive, etc.)
I like the "incorporeal monsters" suggestion. Ghost ship time!
first and second level spells stop him. Let him shine if no one else cares.
Who else is in the party?Druid who spends a lot time in dire shark form.
Buffer bard.
Halfling monk who deals almost as much damage as the archer, but her to-hit is way worse.
Controller/debuffer witch. Tends to spend most of her time keeping things open for the archer to do his thing.
OK, well you have two other PC's who spend all their time buffing the archer and debuffing his foes. So, it looks like they have a team thing going, so it works. I don;t see a problem. However, perhaps you have been throwing too many of the same types of encounters at them, so use some of the above suggestions- judicously- and that will shake things up a bit. Just not too often.
Are you assessing a penalty to ranged combat due to the motion of the boat? That should be a major circumstance penalty under all but becalmed conditions. I am unsure if those penalties havent already been written somewhere but if they havent a -2 for 'calm' (not becalmed which is -0) seas should be normal while heavier swells would be larger penalties. Any outdoor campaign should also have breezes on a regular basis.
I will do some checking to see what penalties I can come up with.
- Gauss
P.S. If anyone thinks that 'calm' seas are really that calm, calm seas can have swells of a couple feet. In a 'small' ship such as a pirate uses that much of a swell is enough to throw off shots. (I like muzzleloaders, Ive done some research on this. It should apply to arrows.)
Some good answers here. Let me add my 2gp:
- Consider that on the open seas, boats move up and down, especially relative to each other. The penalty for firing between ships should be significant, especially if the boats are underway, which naturally implies that the wind is blowing.
- If he's playing "sniper" from the crow's nest, then his movement relative to the rocking of the ship should be that much more extreme. Remind him of this if he does it.
- In any encounter between armed sentients, where there is possibility of ranged combat, chances are, your enemy has armed himself for ranged combat as well. Roll a half-dozen d20s at once to represent those archers firing against him, and he'll be reminded he's a glass cannon.
Other information: Alot of the wooden sailing ships of the day had shields or other forms of cover against arrow fire. Some of that is small enough to just create cover, some of it is total. The style is up to you. Added to sea swells, significant winds (the trade winds start at 11-13mph and go up to 30mph or more). - Gauss
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I agree with Gauss about the motion on deck in a nautical campaign; should be difficult to shoot an arrow just like it makes casters have to concentrate. In our homebrew rules I have nerfed stacking many of the archery feats together and added some restrictions about multiple targets and arrows because archery gets ridiculous at higher levels; particularly when you introduce feats that ignore most cover and concealment. In your case though, it is probably too late and unfair to make homebrew changes at level 9 because your player has invested in it. Since it appears that it bugs you the way it bugged me, for your future games try making changes to ranged combat feats and make cover and concealment more debilitating - it is about the only thing other than the society changing effects of infinite create water spells that seems really broken in Pathfinder IMHO. My changes have not steered one of my PC's away from the bow using ranger and I think he is satisfied that his PC still has a good niche but it isn't crazy ridiculous as it would be with all of the feats stacked as is so common.
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Mirror Image will ruin a few of those full attack routines and displacemnt will eat up half of that damage. Combine the two and suddenly that 100 points per round will look a lot more like 20 or 30 if he is lucky.
Dimension Door/teleport a few melee combat badies right next to him and watch that bow become useless.
Remember at 9th level the opposition should be smart. If an archer is lighting everyone up they will compensate. That is not playing to only one character, that is playing your NPC's correctly.
Honestly, a Fighter-Archer build (no Archer Archtype) does less damage than a Two-Handed Fighter (with Two-Handed Fighter archtype) build. The issue is the sustained ranged damage.
The key to dealing with that is Wind (penalty), Waves (penalty), cover (penalty until he takes Improved Precise Shot) and Fog/Darkness (impossible to deal with penalty unless he can see through fog as if not there).
Tactics: Play smarter pirates/sailors (note: I am not saying you play them stupidly, nor am I trying to insult your style). Many sailing ships had complete cover for the oarsmen. For pure sailing ships you can use other tactics.
For example: how is the archer getting close enough to shoot said pirates/sailors? Is the pirate ship attacking? Then they should be prepared for the occassional 'oh crap they are heavily armed' moment. A minor wizard (or captain with UMD) with a fog/darkness spell (or wand) would cover that while they skedaddle out of there. Additionally, any pirate ship should have pirates that are more than capable of squeezing extra speed out of their ship. Enough to outrun most pursuers (remember, pirates make a living based on speed).
Pirates often shadowed vessels for days to force unwary captains to make mistakes. With the pirate vessels speed they can stay out of range until they were ready. If the target ship appeared to turn on them to attack they can get out of combat before major damage is suffered.
So: pirates engage only when advantageous (low light situations like twilight and dusk are favorites) and run when it isnt. Yes, A few pirates are wounded but you haven't defeated the band.
Note: these are the 'good' pirate ships. Not all pirates were good at it. Many wound up dead when they attacked the wrong ship.
For non-pirate ships (military ships for example) the speed often drops but the ability to keep FULL cover is vastly increased. Even more, full military ships would have a higher level spellcaster on board to even things out.
A question: what era of ships are you using? Are these pirate or military encounters? - Gauss
Just make him move. Then he's limited to a single attack.
Exploding NPCs--near innocents!!!
Maybe some kind of target sequence that needs to be handled, like 4 magic weather vanes on 4 different ships that power a magical lightning monster or something.
Deflect Arrows on enemy archers/duelists.
Terrain. Swarms. Air Elementals and other things that can close the distance. Obscuring spells like Fog Cloud. Sunder his bow. Have someone or something steal his arrows or quiver.
But mostly, give him his moment to shine. The guy has worked hard to make a character that he likes to play and everyone should get their chance to have fun. Personally I would just up the difficulty of the encounters so that however much he kills, everyone else still has something to do. Nothing is keeping any of them from optimizing.
I also agree with the poster that suggested an audit, just to make sure of things. Have him walk you through his bonuses and his character choices at each level. Nothing wrong with doing it to the rest of the party too, just to keep him from feeling persecuted and to make sure no one else is getting 'bonus drift'...
Nobody's suggested just ambushing him?
Do a feint, make the combat look like it's very far away from him, and then have some kind of nasty invisible creature step out of a corner and take a swipe at him when he doesn't expect it.
One possible way to mitigate a particularly well-optimized character is to require taking feats for RP reasons. For example, require that he take Eldritch heritage and improved eldritch heritage at the appropriate levels, and if necessary waive some prerequisites. The powers he gains will probably not add much to his archery, but will add flavor to the character, and delay the gains from optimized feats. This will let the rest of the party catch up a bit while giving him opportunity for RP. Create some RP around this as well, so that he's bemused and concerned about the strange effects he is manifesting, and what it implies for his family history. If he were to take Eldritch Heritage (aquatic) for example, which might be appropriate for a heavily sea-going campaign, you could say one of his ancestors was a merman prince and he might become involved in undersea power struggles in some way.
Definitely don't force him to take feats he doesn't want to take.
No offense Paladin of Baha-who?
Anyways, if you feel his build is too powerful, talk to him and maybe he'll become more versatile and less focused on archery. Maybe suggest he try using that spare dagger or spear or something. Suggest the story that PoBw suggested, and maybe he will balance out, power-wise, with the rest of the party. But definitely don't force it. A player's character can be really personal, and many plan 20 level builds and really invest in their future plans.
No offense taken, I was just throwing an idea out there.
One possible way to mitigate a particularly well-optimized character is to require taking feats for RP reasons.
I would stop playing if my master forced me to take feats...
I suggest making him feel frail, this is what I suspect what my master is doing with my archer and it's working: I used to neglect my defenses because I was more often than not out of melee, but lately I get attacked and targeted with spell more often. This has forced me to reallocate some of my resources, thus putting a limit on my damage per round.
However, I think you should make sure that the other players are not worthless in combat too: simple tweaks can help a lot while preserving flavor. If one goes out of his line to build a useless character he can only blame himself.
Good point Crysknife: make yourself dangerous, become the primary target. Reconsider being so dangerous (heheh, j/k on the last part). - Gauss
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Here's how it looks for the player:
As a player, suddenly every heavy has deflect arrows, thus negating manyshot completely. Every enemy has cover, or serious concealment. Suddenly all the enemies are dropping prone behind cover and waiting for the party to advance into an up close fight.
Basically you can see that every single combat has been metagamed to screw you somehow, and you realize you're not helping the party anymore, you're just making it worse for everyone else. You're a hindrance to your party because you were successful, and now what do you do? Quit? Reroll? Should you let someone else roll your character for you next time so you don't incur the "too successful" encounter penalties again?
Take cover & concealment into consideration, don't adjust the monster behavior in a way inconsistent with what they would do given what they know of the party. Don't penalize success.
Here's how it looks to the other players:
They see that in every encounter, they're finally useful and aren't being completely marginalized by one other character.
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Here's how it looks for the player:
As a player, suddenly every heavy has deflect arrows, thus negating manyshot completely. Every enemy has cover, or serious concealment. Suddenly all the enemies are dropping prone behind cover and waiting for the party to advance into an up close fight.
Basically you can see that every single combat has been metagamed to screw you somehow, and you realize you're not helping the party anymore, you're just making it worse for everyone else. You're a hindrance to your party because you were successful, and now what do you do? Quit? Reroll? Should you let someone else roll your character for you next time so you don't incur the "too successful" encounter penalties again?
Take cover & concealment into consideration, don't adjust the monster behavior in a way inconsistent with what they would do given what they know of the party. Don't penalize success.
Unless the party is encountering only unintelligent foes, any opponent will take advantage of cover and utilize their abilities to their best advantage in order to survive. That is not focusing solely on the archer, that is focusing on good tacticts. Do you not make NPC's step away from PC combat powerhouses, or do you just make them stand there and get full attacked. It is the same thing and not in any way unfair. Why play the archer different than you would a two handed fighgter, etc.
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Obviously you're reading what I wrote, but we're talking about two different kids of cover here:
Normal: PC begins shooting into a small camp of goblins, goblins might then advance on the party from the safest approach or indeed dive behind trees and whatnot.
DM Hatred Mode: The Goblins now have numerous trenches between the PCs and themselves, they are all firing from behind fixed large tower shields with arrow slits in them (+8 or higher AC mod). All the goblins have the same exact feats/progression the archer does. The Goblins got surprise. The Goblins also now have potions of windwall which they consume when they need to come out from behind the fortified cover.
That's the sort of thing that's all relatively above and beyond the appropriate response for this. Cover is fine if the badguys would take it, but engineering every encounter to be a way to counter the archer is going to get boring or even upsetting.
Don't be in DM hatred mode.
EDIT: Only now did I realize it's actually being a player hater, and that's priceless to me. Also "don't hate the player, hate the game (mechanics)" would work.
Get someone close to him to have them sunder the bow or cut the string or something.
Mind control him or his teammmates (bard/witch). Have them fight really big monsters with lots of hit points.
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I get it, especially at low levels don't have monsters and NPC's do things they would not normally do. The OP is talking about 9th level. At that level NPC's and intelligent monsters should have spells and items to deal with ranged attacks and should use realistic tactics. That is all I am saying. Obviously, you don't need to go overboard. Not every enemy will be a monk/duelist/sorcerer with displacement/windwall/deflect arrows hiding behind a tree or mast in this case...but they also should not be defensless mooks standing in the open and being pincusioned round after round.