So basically the core of the complaint is based on what is already confirmed to not be an issue in PFO. It has already been confirmed that equipped items won't be lost on death.It's a paradox created by the harsh death system and economy of the game. You need to have better ships to have the economic capacity to afford losing ships. As such if you want to PvP it's reasonable to attempt to get to level 3-4 missions as rapidly as possible. You'll also want to spend some time on salvaging skills to maximize profit.
Then, X weeks later, you can PvP, and if you have a bad night you're not out of doing what you want to do (PvP) for days running low level...
Depends, since this game won't have ships. Theoretically combat between 2 *new* characters will be functionally similar to combat between 2 *old* characters. As a result there will be (for new players after the game has been out awhile) a certain minimum training investment necessary to meet a median level of performance acceptable in PvP.
If you want to PvP within the first X many weeks/months of starting the game; to be effective you will be locked into a certain training plan dependent upon what role you want. As a result, your choice of activities will be quite limited outside of activities that do not require a skill investment, or PvE combat. While you could splash other things, you'd do them way less efficiently (economically) than combat, and it would push back your date to arrive at PvP viability by however much time you spent *splashing* other skills.
Goblin Squad Member
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It's a paradox created by the harsh death system and economy of the game. You need to have better ships to have the economic capacity to afford losing ships.
No, it really isn't.
Cheap ships and cheap modules are cheap. You can get the ISK to refit yourself almost risk-free. Sure, if you're unfortunate enough to somehow lose your last ship and your last set of low-level mission and/or mining gear, then you have to rebuild from newbie levels, but why would you do that? Just keep one ship fit for "getting emergency ISK" and don't put it at risk.
Or spend $35 once, get 700 million ISK by selling a PLEX, and never ever worry about ISK again.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I work with a guy who has pretty much given up on all level-based games. He just wants to create his character with a point-buy system, and then play his complete, fully developed character.
I have absolutely no desire for that whatsoever. It doesn't bother me that I won't be able to be competitive in PvP the moment that I decide I want to. It doesn't bother me that I won't reach the full potential of my Archetype for years.
I'm really looking forward to hearing Ryan tell us how they're thinking skills and combat will work.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So basically the core of the complaint is based on what is already confirmed to not be an issue in PFO. It has already been confirmed that equipped items won't be lost on death.It's a paradox created by the harsh death system and economy of the game. You need to have better ships to have the economic capacity to afford losing ships. As such if you want to PvP it's reasonable to attempt to get to level 3-4 missions as rapidly as possible. You'll also want to spend some time on salvaging skills to maximize profit.
Then, X weeks later, you can PvP, and if you have a bad night you're not out of doing what you want to do (PvP) for days running low level...
Depends, since this game won't have ships. Theoretically combat between 2 *new* characters will be functionally similar to combat between 2 *old* characters. As a result there will be (for new players after the game has been out awhile) a certain minimum training investment necessary to meet a median level of performance acceptable in PvP.
If you want to PvP within the first X many weeks/months of starting the game; to be effective you will be locked into a certain training plan dependent upon what role you want. As a result, your choice of activities will be quite limited outside of activities that do not require a skill investment, or PvE combat. While you could splash other things, you'd do them way less efficiently (economically) than combat, and it would push back your date to arrive at PvP viability by however much time you spent *splashing* other skills.
That is a trade off to be made. If you want to have fun doing something else, then obviously you can't be doing the primary thing. This is your opportunity cost, the things you give up to do something else. If you want to have fun with PvP, then PvP your way on up! If you want to dabble, then have fun dabbling! But why should you be equally as good at all things? Even in a game based on grinding, time spent crafting isn't spent killing things and leveling up. It is the same problem, but PFO lets you go *do* things that are more fun while you wait.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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So basically the core of the complaint is based on what is already confirmed to not be an issue in PFO. It has already been confirmed that equipped items won't be lost on death.It's a paradox created by the harsh death system and economy of the game. You need to have better ships to have the economic capacity to afford losing ships. As such if you want to PvP it's reasonable to attempt to get to level 3-4 missions as rapidly as possible. You'll also want to spend some time on salvaging skills to maximize profit.
Then, X weeks later, you can PvP, and if you have a bad night you're not out of doing what you want to do (PvP) for days running low level...
Depends, since this game won't have ships. Theoretically combat between 2 *new* characters will be functionally similar to combat between 2 *old* characters. As a result there will be (for new players after the game has been out awhile) a certain minimum training investment necessary to meet a median level of performance acceptable in PvP.
If you want to PvP within the first X many weeks/months of starting the game; to be effective you will be locked into a certain training plan dependent upon what role you want. As a result, your choice of activities will be quite limited outside of activities that do not require a skill investment, or PvE combat. While you could splash other things, you'd do them way less efficiently (economically) than combat, and it would push back your date to arrive at PvP viability by however much time you spent *splashing* other skills.
PvP is not the same as dueling. You are a viable PvPer from the time you pick up a club. (sooner, for some classes).
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As much as I hate to say it the problem is a lack of limitations that most likely would be arbitrary.
first you cant cast shocking grasp and punch at the same time, you cast the spell on your hand first then you go touch the enemy with a fist.
second from the current assumptions the only times when people will be balanced is when fighting someone of equal age or at max abilities, period no other times would people be balanced not to mention that max abilities is an arbitrary limit to begin if however needed.
Third I dont see how you can make the above not true without limiting who can fight who(breaking the map areas by age/lvl) or limited what you can do(one class only) this is why class based mmos are the main stream because the developers are seeking balance.
classless can be done and has been done but those systems do not even reference classes and there lies are current problem, everyone is referring to classes and archetypes and how those interact but truthfully they need to forget classes altogether make a system then add the class as a window dressing.
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It's a paradox created by the harsh death system and economy of the game. You need to have better ships to have the economic capacity to afford losing ships.No, it really isn't.
Cheap ships and cheap modules are cheap. You can get the ISK to refit yourself almost risk-free. Sure, if you're unfortunate enough to somehow lose your last ship and your last set of low-level mission and/or mining gear, then you have to rebuild from newbie levels, but why would you do that? Just keep one ship fit for "getting emergency ISK" and don't put it at risk.
Cheap is a relative term. A decently fitted Rifter can cost well over a million ISK easily. A well fitted one can cost up to 6 million. That's how many low level missions? Upwards of 20? Those missions can anywhere from 20 minutes to an hour to complete one. It may be low risk, but it's very time consuming. "I died once, now I'll spend 10+ hours prepping to fight again" isn't an attractive proposition to most people.
Or spend $35 once, get 700 million ISK by selling a PLEX, and never ever worry about ISK again.
I don't like pay to win.
Did you miss the part about "tutorial missions are bank"? By the time you've done one run of them you should have enough to fit a decent Rifter (not tech 2 fit mind, if you're going tech 2 you should be looking a an AF) several times over.
Granted, recent market changes seem to be jacking prices up.
Your tutorial missions give you several level 1 mission-useable hulls with a tier 3 frigate at the end of the chain. Unless you're liquidating everything to rely upon one ship for everything, you should have at least a decent set of fall-back gear.
Solo PvE in EVE always takes longer than if you're buddied up. So buddy up! 2-4 relatively new characters in fleet will easily smoke level 1 and 2 missions, reducing it by greater than fractionally. If you have a "cleaner" on stand-by (ideally some one providing fleet buffs) you'll even be able to sell the salvage as a group and really clean up.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I don't like pay to win.
Or spend $35 once, get 700 million ISK by selling a PLEX, and never ever worry about ISK again.
What about "pay to have someone else play and give you a fraction of what they earn"?
You could also attempt a scam, or "intended result of emergent gameplay", as they are known. You could join a corp which subsidizes their pilots because it is more effective to have the people who like the money making game play it and people who like the PvP game play it.
Or you could grumble about how hard it is to solo the world.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Cheap is a relative term. A decently fitted Rifter can cost well over a million ISK easily. A well fitted one can cost up to 6 million. That's how many low level missions? Upwards of 20? Those missions can anywhere from 20 minutes to an hour to complete one. It may be low risk, but it's very time consuming. "I died once, now I'll spend 10+ hours prepping to fight again" isn't an attractive proposition to most people.
Then you're playing the game in a way that is going to cause you undue suffering.
RULE 0: Never risk what you can't afford to lose.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Cheap is a relative term. A decently fitted Rifter can cost well over a million ISK easily.
Yeah, you're still not getting it.
When you're new, and you don't have a lot of ISK, you don't fit your ship "decently". You fit it cheaply. So when you lose it, you have ISK to make more ships with similar fittings. And you keep doing that until you've mastered enough skill (both character and player) that you can afford to start working up the cost curve.
Again - if you're trying to start playing EVE by playing it "really well", you're doing it wrong. You can have massive fun doing it "as well as you can afford" - as long as you don't let it bother you that you could be doing it better.
Or spend $35 once, get 700 million ISK by selling a PLEX, and never ever worry about ISK again.I don't like pay to win.
Sorry - I don't understand. "Win"? What did you win? You paid someone to go do the "boring" mission grinding and mining that you can't be bothered to do yourself. And what you get for that is ... the ability to buy ships and modules. You don't get a magic button that says "you win the fight" or "you find the wormhole" or "the NPCs self-destruct so you can auto-loot the wrecks".
You don't get gear that only comes from a cash store. You don't get access to locations that require a cash-store key. You don't get more skill points faster than people who didn't pay money. You basically spent 3 months of subscription fees to not have to worry about ISK, and if you're in the game to have fun, and your complaint is that earning ISK is boring and makes the game suck, isn't that a solution to your problem?
RyanD
Cheap is a relative term. A decently fitted Rifter can cost well over a million ISK easily.Yeah, you're still not getting it.
When you're new, and you don't have a lot of ISK, you don't fit your ship "decently". You fit it cheaply. So when you lose it, you have ISK to make more ships with similar fittings. And you keep doing that until you've mastered enough skill (both character and player) that you can afford to start working up the cost curve.
Again - if you're trying to start playing EVE by playing it "really well", you're doing it wrong. You can have massive fun doing it "as well as you can afford" - as long as you don't let it bother you that you could be doing it better.
Or spend $35 once, get 700 million ISK by selling a PLEX, and never ever worry about ISK again.I don't like pay to win.Sorry - I don't understand. "Win"? What did you win? You paid someone to go do the "boring" mission grinding and mining that you can't be bothered to do yourself. And what you get for that is ... the ability to buy ships and modules. You don't get a magic button that says "you win the fight" or "you find the wormhole" or "the NPCs self-destruct so you can auto-loot the wrecks".
You don't get gear that only comes from a cash store. You don't get access to locations that require a cash-store key. You don't get more skill points faster than people who didn't pay money. You basically spent 3 months of subscription fees to not have to worry about ISK, and if you're in the game to have fun, and your complaint is that earning ISK is boring and makes the game suck, isn't that a solution to your problem?
RyanD
You can not, as an average person that started the game with tops 1-2 other new players, do what you are suggesting in any type of way that is reasonable, without grinding alot or, as you mentioned, RMT'ing Plex. If you go into lowsec with 1-3 cheaply fitted Rifters, they are going to be gone within 30 minutes tops at the game's current maturity level. It will take you hours of grinding to replace each one.
I'd never feel inclined to spend cash to "skip" content in a game. If I only enjoy a small fraction of the content, that content better be completely awesome, or it's not a good game. In my opinion Eve is an awesome galactic simulator, and a terrible game. $35 buys alot of entertainment during a steam sale, I'd never spend that amount on virtual items or currency in an MMO to alleviate issues I have with the game. If the game is not fun to play without spending money in the cash shop (if it has a subscription too), it's a greedy design and not a good game. If there are cool inexpensive cosmetic items or something, I might grab those occasionally for myself or my wife.
The game I've spent the most in with a F2P/Freemium model is DDO. I activate a VIP sub every once in awhile to go through and have some good PvE fun for a few weeks. However, I've never felt like I *had* to buy anything except a sub to have the maximum amount of fun to be had in the game. I don't even care about overpowered cash shop benefits in there because I only PvE in it with groups of friends. If someone wants to trivialize content in a PvE game, let them knock themselves out. It sort of defeats the purpose to me, but that's my opinion and the type of gamer I am.
If I can by virtue of the cash shop afford pimped out stuff that makes me win, I just paid to win. There is no rocket surgery going on there. I agree with the idea of Plex because it neuters money spammers, not because I like the concept of selling or buying in game advantages for real life money in a PvP game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If I can by virtue of the cash shop afford pimped out stuff that makes me win, I just paid to win...
No, you just paid to compete without a hassle. You have to win by your own.
Once again you litter your posts with extremes and inaccuracies, that doesn't help.
At the core I find your point valid - people tend to withhold from PvP until they feel "ready", which is usually when they feel they have some kind of an edge based on their equipment.
This is a faulty way of playing MMOs, as RD stated, because equipment is not a replacement for skill and, most important, friends.
So instead of lonely grinding your first "well equipped rifter" and getting it shot to pieces fast by people with even better ships and, more important, more skill and friends to help them, you should do what is reasonable - play a MMO as an MMO and not as a solo game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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When you're new, and you don't have a lot of ISK, you don't fit your ship "decently". You fit it cheaply. So when you lose it, you have ISK to make more ships with similar fittings. And you keep doing that until you've mastered enough skill (both character and player) that you can afford to start working up the cost curve.
I suppose that's where the disconnect is. I like to play as an anti-griefer. Not many pirates and griefers fly ships I could kill in a cheaply fitted rifter. And blowing up random newbs and miners has 0 appeal to me. I like to protect people not just crap on anyone I can for kicks. I tried playing a pirate once. Killing someone who had done nothing wrong to me or anyone else honestly made me feel sick to my stomach. I started shooting and then just let off the trigger, let the guy escape, and deleted the character. (This was on Freelancer not EVE)
Until I can take on griefers the game is not enjoyable to me. I don't really play games to feed easy kills to people who have done nothing to earn them but play longer. If I can bypass using ships that aren't going to be competitive against 99% of the people I want to kill by sitting back, letting my skills train a few months, and THEN playing the game, then that is what I am going to do. That is something you may want to consider if you want to cut down on griefing in this game. A lot of people grief because killing newbs is the easiest way to get PVP you can win, where anti-griefers who refuse to kill random newbs are hurt FAR more by a high entry barrier.
If I feel like I am actually honing my skills as a player, or advancing my character, then I will continue to play the game. But I kind of feel like with EVE that all you have to do is copy a build from someone who knows what they are doing and get a few minutes of advice. I mean unless you are organizing/leading fleets I don't see where that much skill is involved. It doesn't take much in a game where module on/off and autopilot is the extent of combat.
Like you said earlier. It's not a fighter simulator its a ferry simulator.
If I can by virtue of the cash shop afford pimped out stuff that makes me win, I just paid to win...No, you just paid to compete without a hassle. You have to win by your own.
Once again you litter your posts with extremes and inaccuracies, that doesn't help.
At the core I find your point valid - people tend to withhold from PvP until they feel "ready", which is usually when they feel they have some kind of an edge based on their equipment.
This is a faulty way of playing MMOs, as RD stated, because equipment is not a replacement for skill and, most important, friends.
So instead of lonely grinding your first "well equipped rifter" and getting it shot to pieces fast by people with even better ships and, more important, more skill and friends to help them, you should do what is reasonable - play a MMO as an MMO and not as a solo game.
Who said the grinding was lonely? Last time I fired up a new character on Eve it was with 2 other people. This exacerbates the money grind if you are all trying to group with one another, because the increased speed at which you complete missions does not keep pace with the reduced ISK/Salvage you are earning by splitting it 3 ways. You can't suddenly say, "well, let's do harder missions" then either. Since you must also grind up whatever agent's faction standings, and without certain tiers of ship upgrades you will pretty much *not* be progressing past 2's anyways.
The only activities in Eve that are *group* activities are high level missions, fleet based PvP, mining operations, and exploration stuff. Everything you can do with a *young* character outside of mining pretty actively penalizes you for grouping with others. I know this, because I've tried it on more than one occasion.
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If you have to *invest* additional cash in a game to reduce the *work* it takes to get to something that's still only marginally fun (MORTAL FERRY COMBAT), why the heck would you play it? It already lost the value proposition it had based on being only $15/m. Additional money beyond what you are paying a month or what you paid as an entrance fee is money better spent on steam sales, movie tickets, date night, etc. I am not so starved for entertainment that I'll put up with BS game design or greedy cash shops.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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The only activities in Eve that are *group* activities are high level missions, fleet based PvP, mining operations, and exploration stuff. Everything you can do with a *young* character outside of mining pretty actively penalizes you for grouping with others. I know this, because I've tried it on more than one occasion.
How many 'minimally fitted rifters' (or equivalent) can a typical pirate defeat at once?
Why isn't pirate hunting a group activity?
The only activities in Eve that are *group* activities are high level missions, fleet based PvP, mining operations, and exploration stuff. Everything you can do with a *young* character outside of mining pretty actively penalizes you for grouping with others. I know this, because I've tried it on more than one occasion.
How many 'minimally fitted rifters' (or equivalent) can a typical pirate defeat at once?
Why isn't pirate hunting a group activity?
One person launching drones from a battleship could brutalize your trio of "minimally fitted rifters" without even firing their guns at you. Your light weapons if they just used defensive modules would take several minutes to never penetrating their defenses, depending on build. Since Battleships are the defacto workhorse in Eve at it's current maturity level, I'm going to go with alot, they could defeat ALOT.
Level 3 missions (PvE) like to launch a dozen+ rifter class vessels at you at once in waves, if that gives you any idea. The only real role frigate class vessels play in PvP is the role of "tackler". Get in there and scramble someone's ability to escape while trying to live long enough that they die to the higher class ships you are grouped with before you are asploded.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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The only activities in Eve that are *group* activities are high level missions, fleet based PvP, mining operations, and exploration stuff. Everything you can do with a *young* character outside of mining pretty actively penalizes you for grouping with others. I know this, because I've tried it on more than one occasion.
How many 'minimally fitted rifters' (or equivalent) can a typical pirate defeat at once?
Why isn't pirate hunting a group activity?
One person launching drones from a battleship could brutalize your trio of "minimally fitted rifters" without even firing their guns at you. Your light weapons if they just used defensive modules would take several minutes to never penetrating their defenses, depending on build. Since Battleships are the defacto workhorse in Eve at it's current maturity level, I'm going to go with alot, they could defeat ALOT.
Level 3 missions (PvE) like to launch a dozen+ rifter class vessels at you at once in waves, if that gives you any idea. The only real role frigate class vessels play in PvP is the role of "tackler". Get in there and scramble someone's ability to escape while trying to live long enough that they die to the higher class ships you are grouped with before you are asploded.
So... how do pirate hunters keep pirates from escaping? Or is there basically no risk to piracy... in which case, why can't frigates be pirates?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't play EvE but I do agree with Marou on the RMT stuff. If I have to buy something outside of the game to alleviate frustrations or annoyances or unfun portions of the game...then the game is poorly designed.
My attitude is that either a game stands on it's own and is fun to play without spending anything more then the admission price or I'm not interested in playing it.
If a particular portion of the game-play feels like a "grind" then the Developer hasn't done a good enough job with thay particular sub-system of the game in making it fun and engaging. If the portion of the game that is grindy and unfun isn't optional then either the game is poorly designed or a crass cash grab or simply "not the game for me".
It's why I generaly don't touch F2P games or games where RMT is a major portion of the game with a 10ft pool. It's not that I'm cheap either... I'll glady pay a $30 or $45 (i.e. 2x to 3x the standard rate) per month subscription rate for a quality game....but I have ZERO interest in paying $15 per month for a game and then paying an additional $15 to skip things that are purposefully designed to be annoyances. I have no desire to support such a game or business model. To me that's like paying $15 for a meal, then being asked to pay an extra $15 to avoid having the waiter spit in your food. Let me pay my $30 up front, serve me a good meal...and if the waiter is good he'll get a tip commesurate with his services on top of that.
So... how do pirate hunters keep pirates from escaping? Or is there basically no risk to piracy... in which case, why can't frigates be pirates?
The only activities in Eve that are *group* activities are high level missions, fleet based PvP, mining operations, and exploration stuff. Everything you can do with a *young* character outside of mining pretty actively penalizes you for grouping with others. I know this, because I've tried it on more than one occasion.
How many 'minimally fitted rifters' (or equivalent) can a typical pirate defeat at once?
Why isn't pirate hunting a group activity?
One person launching drones from a battleship could brutalize your trio of "minimally fitted rifters" without even firing their guns at you. Your light weapons if they just used defensive modules would take several minutes to never penetrating their defenses, depending on build. Since Battleships are the defacto workhorse in Eve at it's current maturity level, I'm going to go with alot, they could defeat ALOT.
Level 3 missions (PvE) like to launch a dozen+ rifter class vessels at you at once in waves, if that gives you any idea. The only real role frigate class vessels play in PvP is the role of "tackler". Get in there and scramble someone's ability to escape while trying to live long enough that they die to the higher class ships you are grouped with before you are asploded.
Warp Scramblers. A module type you can train to fit in your ship that factors into part of the investment time of being PvP ready. The person who undertook this task then becomes the "tackler".
Small fast vessels are hard for big vessels to hit at short range. So, in this case you try to crawl up the butt of a big ship with your little frigate very fast hoping it doesn't deploy drones stronger than your ship to kill you immediately. Tech 2 Interceptors (big time investment) are much more effective at this role than entry level frigates. You then keep the bigger ship warp scrambled while your buddies kill it.
/edit: Also, excellent analogy Mel, same way I feel about it. I'll clarify that I have no issues dropping additional cash on a game I already enjoy for extra stuff like expansions or meaty DLC.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Trying to get back to the original intent of this post, to see if I understand what Marou_ is actually asking for.
Is this a fair paraphrase?
"It sucks sitting around waiting for my skills to get better with nothing to do in-game to make them better more quickly, so please let me do something to make them better more quickly by playing the game."
Trying to get back to the original intent of this post, to see if I understand what Marou_ is actually asking for.
Is this a fair paraphrase?
"It sucks sitting around waiting for my skills to get better with nothing to do in-game to make them better more quickly, so please let me do something to make them better more quickly by playing the game."
Somewhat, more like, "Give me fun stuff to do while my skills advance me towards the activity goal I've set."
It could be that Pathfinder's equivalents to agent missions or whatever other activity are so much more intrinsically *fun* from a gameplay perspective than Eve's that it is no problem here. In fact, knowing how the advancement system works and my innate dislike of that feature, that is my best hope of getting enjoyment out of the game.
Like any other game, Pathfinder will live or die on my hard drive on the merits of it's core gameplay; that being what you actually do when you log in on an average day. If it's boring and repetitive which a sandbox shouldn't be, but Eve is, it dies.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Trying to get back to the original intent of this post, to see if I understand what Marou_ is actually asking for.
Is this a fair paraphrase?
"It sucks sitting around waiting for my skills to get better with nothing to do in-game to make them better more quickly, so please let me do something to make them better more quickly by playing the game."
Somewhat, more like, "Give me fun stuff to do while my skills advance me towards the activity goal I've set."
It could be that Pathfinder's equivalents to agent missions or whatever other activity are so much more intrinsically *fun* from a gameplay perspective than Eve's that it is no problem here. In fact, knowing how the advancement system works and my innate dislike of that feature, that is my best hope of getting enjoyment out of the game.
Like any other game, Pathfinder will live or die on my hard drive on the merits of it's core gameplay; that being what you actually do when you log in on an average day. If it's boring and repetitive which a sandbox shouldn't be, but Eve is, it dies.
I agree with this sentiment 100 percent as well. Note that there is no particular reason why even a Day 1 player can't play SOME usefull role in the game...even in PvP.
I played a MUD for many years. One of the big things that happaned in that game was "invasions" of NPC mobs. You definately needed some levels under your belt to be effective fighting in those invasions. However, even a Day 1 player had at least 1 usefull role they could play in such fights. They could DRAG a stunned or fallen combatant to safety so that they could be healed/rezzed, etc and get back into the fight. It took no skill to drag, so they could easly do it....and yeah, if a Day 1 player got attacked by an invader it was good night Charlie.... but it really didn't cost the low level player much of anything to get killed in such a manner... even if they lost all thier gear, low level adventuring gear was so cheap/easy to replace that it basicaly was for free (and usualy the player community made sure the lowbies had the gear they needed to adventure...at no cost to those characters by supplying/outfitting those characters properly). It wasn't until you gained a few levels that death really started to have some sting attached to it.... and by that time, the player generaly had the resources to deal with such setbacks.
Again, I haven't actualy played EvE, so I may be speaking out of turn but from what I've read. Standard attitude in EvE seems to be that lowbies are considered resources to be preyed upon/exploited. Standard attitude in the MUD I played was that lowbies were valuable resources to be nurtured and supported. There were no mechanical restrictions against such practices...you could kill/scam anyone.... BUT the community of players just didn't deem that as a socialy acceptable form of play, especialy toward newcomers.... and people who engaged in such practices were thoroughly ostracized and had a very difficult time of it due to the depdancies required.
If you go into lowsec with 1-3 cheaply fitted Rifters, they are going to be gone within 30 minutes tops at the game's current maturity level. It will take you hours of grinding to replace each one.
It's called lowsec for a reason, dude. LOL. If you want to play a "safe" game then stay in highsec.
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I want to advance my character by playing the game not by waiting nor by grinding repetitive tasks. Though time wait is better then grinding as long as I can do something fun during the wait.
I do not believe it reasonable to require players to grind for money or pay more real money.
I played eve a little and my problem with it was I couldn't just go for what I wanted instead I had to spend time gaining money for what I wanted then I had to not play until my skills reached a point of allowing me to do what I wanted.
The solution is so simple yet remains unimplemented, allow anyone to do anything but your skill affects how well you do at it, then I can play what I want to while getting good at it rather then waiting till I can do what I want. Further requires that any skill can be trained with the maximum requirement for moderate skill lvl being to have access to the tools for using the skill.(use a module so you can learn to use it better)
quote Ryan Dancey
Again - if you're trying to start playing EVE by playing it "really well", you're doing it wrong. You can have massive fun doing it "as well as you can afford" - as long as you don't let it bother you that you could be doing it better.
unquote
This is good for real life were success, not fun, matters, not good for games.
note you can NOT have massive amounts of fun until you have AT LEAST a passing ability to do what you want.
DLH, which option between "casting a spell" or "casting wish" would you consider to be automatically included in your "do everything even if you suck" model?
The only problem I see with is that if it's casting a spell then you're still prevented access to a large number of "functions" of that skill and you still have to train to gain access to them which is what you stated you don't like. If you're talking about casting wish, then I don't think any newbie should be slinging around wish, even if they fail 99% of the time.
I like characters being good at certain things. For example, if I want a mage, I want to be able to excel in magic and am okay with being "squishy." Conversely, if I want a martial only character then I have no use for magic and don't want it anywhere in my options menus.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I do not believe it reasonable to require players to grind for money or pay more real money.
I would love to see a game with rich character development during character creation that let you spend points to build up your starting character, and for Income to be one of the things you could purchase.
The solution is so simple yet remains unimplemented, allow anyone to do anything but your skill affects how well you do at it, then I can play what I want to while getting good at it rather then waiting till I can do what I want.
Getting the first skill rank in Eve takes 15 or 30 minutes, I believe. I would recommend opening a Skill with Rank 0 taking 15 minutes in PFO. That's not too long to wait to start doing something.
note you can NOT have massive amounts of fun until you have AT LEAST a passing ability to do what you want.
I am convinced that certain players will not have fun doing something until they can do it at least as well as anyone else can.
note you can NOT have massive amounts of fun until you have AT LEAST a passing ability to do what you want.I am convinced that certain players will not have fun doing something until they can do it at least as well as anyone else can.
In Eve the entertainment value of the "activities" themselves is very dubious. So, the "fun" comes in making money, winning, and taking risks, yeah? If activity 1 is not inherently fun but it earns you a bunch more money than activity 2, which is also not inherently fun, which will you do?
The *fun* that comes out of Eve activities is the same kind of *fun* that comes out of a slot or video poker machine. If I must trade/mine/etc for 6 hours to earn as much ISK as I would in 1 hour of PvE, and the *gameplay* behind any of these activities is not exciting or inherently fun on a gameplay level, trading is zero fun for my combat focused character.
If activity 1 is not inherently fun but it earns you a bunch more money than activity 2, which is also not inherently fun, which will you do?Neither.
Right, but then there is all this cool crap going on all around you in the world. That's what inevitably makes me break down and go, "Ya know, maybe I'll try Eve again." Which always regardless of the path I took brings me back to cancelling in 3 weeks. I had alot of fun in the beta because everyone was a mover and shaker in the sandbox. Everyone was on relatively equal footing. The player competition and dyanamic nature of the world overcame the shortcomings of the gameplay itself.
When I sold my high skilled jack-of-all trades to pay off a CC (it was worth that much) 3-4 years ago, I mostly stopped playing Eve. It was pretty fun on that character because I had a wide variety of viable activities I could do alone or in small groups. However, that character had alot of REAL TIME TRAINING behind them. That character also *grew up* along with everyone else, and built up many skills while I wasn't even playing the game but was still subbed/queue'ing skills. They were never the extremely limited *can't really participate in the sandbox* character that the newer ones I try with my wife are.
That is the downside of real-time training. Sure, you can create a character and jump in a tristan but you're so weak. With those skills your flight speed, time to FTL, HP, etc is so much better (twice or triple as much, even). Going backwards just sucks.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I played a MUD for many years. One of the big things that happaned in that game was "invasions" of NPC mobs. You definately needed some levels under your belt to be effective fighting in those invasions. However, even a Day 1 player had at least 1 usefull role they could play in such fights. They could DRAG a stunned or fallen combatant to safety so that they could be healed/rezzed, etc and get back into the fight. It took no skill to drag, so they could easly do it....and yeah, if a Day 1 player got attacked by an invader it was good night Charlie.... but it really didn't cost the low level player much of anything to get killed in such a manner... even if they lost all thier gear, low level adventuring gear was so cheap/easy to replace that...
This reminds me of running my clan on Darkfall. If we were going into a major battle and we had fresh blood with us, I would have them revive our members and gank our enemies once they were on the ground. Having some way to haul bodies away from the battlefield that has 0 level dependency isn't a bad idea.
The first skill level in EVE for something like Battleship might take 30 minutes, maybe.
The first skill level in new character skills doesn't take more than 5 to 10 minutes, often less. The higher rank skills take longer than the rank 1 and 2 skills.
Skill level = proficiency. Skill rank = time to learn multiplier. Rank 1 and 2 skills all the way from 1 to 5 don't take more than about a week, level 5 is not necessary until you're ready take the big step that a level 5 skill unlocks for you.
Frigate 5 is a "merit badge" skill that unocls the ability to train the half-dozen or more tech 2 frigate hulls for you. If you already know which of those frigates are of interesgt to you, try meeting all other prerquisites *before* training Frigate 5.
As some one with a character that played copious PvE, you really do not *need* tech 2 weapon systems even in level 4 missions. The meta 2-4 weapons you (used?) to get as loot are more than sufficient. Faction ammunition from your LP Are as good or better than tech 2 ammo and the meta2-4 weapons are much easier to fit on your hulls. I did not train tech 2 weapon skills until very recently, within the past six months.
:) JOAT characters are a lot of fun, but they are time-intensive. In the early years they were the norm, now not so much.
Soo, if I am understanding that right, the discussion is that my new char can't compete with someone who is in the game for years?
Gosh, who would have thought that from an MMO?
People who are tired of the same old lazy *dime a dozen* MMO design and are looking for a real fantasy sandbox? After all, if the standard approach is what you want, hundreds of games out there cater to it.
With "real time" skill training that takes 2.5 years to reach the pinnacle of 1 archetype, and a PvP focus on controlling resources; the gap between established and new players can not be insurmountable as it is in a standard (2 mo/cap) game; or you end up with no new players and a game that dies fairly rapidly.
Even in Eve, you could gank a high skilled character by swarming them with day 1 characters. It's far from impossible.
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DLH, which option between "casting a spell" or "casting wish" would you consider to be automatically included in your "do everything even if you suck" model?
The only problem I see with is that if it's casting a spell then you're still prevented access to a large number of "functions" of that skill and you still have to train to gain access to them which is what you stated you don't like. If you're talking about casting wish, then I don't think any newbie should be slinging around wish, even if they fail 99% of the time.
I like characters being good at certain things. For example, if I want a mage, I want to be able to excel in magic and am okay with being "squishy." Conversely, if I want a martial only character then I have no use for magic and don't want it anywhere in my options menus.
First, I said up to moderate and wish is not a skill its something you can do with a skill, a very high lvl skill. the idea is that I can pick up a spellbook and prep and cast a low to middle lvl spell regardless of skill, so I can do it while I am "learning" instead of having to beat everything with a stick until a timer goes. The learning part improves success and reduces cost.
Every game Ive played has made it seem as though its impossible to do something that you haven't trained in, but in reality I can figure my way through most any task with a little time and effort. When I was a kid(about 10) I fixed a tape recorder(mic and motor) with no training in electronics or anything. I didnt have something pop up and go "You need to train electronics before making any attempt at this."
As far as not wanting to see skills your not going to use, just dont put them on your hot bar, they should have the groups minimizable, which would be the same as most games already, or just set the dropdown box to not display skills with no ranks. The UI should be customizable for each person anyway.
I played Eve for about a month. I at first was pretty excited until I found that it was loaded with griefers who had nothing better to do than mess with anyone who had just started playing the game.
There were also some really great people who I also met, but I have to admit that the jerks far outnumbered those who were decent.
If this game will be EVE based, then my guess is that it may attract the same jerks that inhabit Eve.
Granted my experience was limited ... but I gave it a month. After that, I had no desire to do nothing but get either ganked for just trying to explore or robbed when I try to mine and since those robbing were far more experienced than I ... it did not end well for me :(
Even with some friends on it was no real help.
In an eve type of environment, you are either in a guild or you are dead meat as a beginner player. That simple.
NOTE: This was MY experience - yours may be very different ... at least I hope it was!
EVE is an attempt to hard code a certain form of libertarian ideology into an MMO. Many MMO's can only dream of attracting the number of players who have quit EvE over the years. That's not to say that the sandbox concept is without merit, but any game designer who is looking at EvE as a model also needs to review the history of Ultima Online (which followed a similar sandbox model). There are several game design problems that immediately comes to mind with applying the EVE sandbox to a fantasy setting.
First of all I have to ask why any game designer in their right mind would choose to use a gear loss model with a gear dependent fantasy property. In EVE acquisition of gear is relatively trivial. T2 items are produced in runs running from 10 items to thousands of items. Unless you are going to allow for industrial enchantment you are going to have a supply problem. (See also the early days of UO where a few PvP guilds managed to acquire most of the magic items in the game).
EVE has not handled its end game well. Basically it suffers from the problem that older editions of Shadowrun had, milspec gear vastly overpowers everything else in the game. In EVE this has resulted in vast blobs of cap ships. At the same time these capships, if purchased with Plex, run in value from around $30 to several thousand dollars (Titan is $2500 I think). Are you comfortable with potentially having a million dollars worth of digital pixels trying to murder each other on a single node of your server?
EVE allows for scamming and corp theft. Some of these thefts, most notably E-Bank and the asset theft that occurred with the dissolution of Band of Brothers represent losses with Plex values in the (low to mid) tens of thousand of dollars. With a moongoo income of 1.2 trillion a month, Goonswarm alliance has a monthly isk income equal to $40,000 in Plex. How would you respond to a major theft that tagged the jurisdictional amount ($75,000 I believe) to land in federal court? How would a federal judge respond to a civil suit involving $75,000 in digital assets? Would the US attorney's office pursue such a loss as a Federal RICO violation?
Are you absolutely positive that the EVE model does not violate US anti-online gambling laws? Remember, CCP is one of the few major employers still standing in Iceland. The Icelandic government is involved in supporting their business. Last I looked the safe harbor provision did not apply if you could somehow get money out of the game. Are you bet your business sure that there are not aspects of the EVE model that only work because of the support of a foreign government with whom the United States has a long standing friendly relationship (including in the past having a military base upon their soil)?
Have you reviewed the applicable US law relating to stored value cards?
Many of these objections can be taken care of by not allowing a RMT transaction. On the other hand, if you do that you can no longer simply drop a Plex to take care of your ISK needs.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Many of these objections can be taken care of by not allowing a RMT transaction. On the other hand, if you do that you can no longer simply drop a Plex to take care of your ISK needs.
I am not a lawyer but I am 99% sure that they are safe from gambling law not because of foreign governments, but because ISK does not convert back into cash (at least not without breaking the terms of service and not through game mechanics).
People can pay whatever they want into a game. I'm pretty certain I could run a poker site that allows people to buy chips with real world cash, as long as those chips are never converted back into cash for the players, and the players have no expectation of being able to do so, then it does not count as gambling.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...That's not to say that the sandbox concept is without merit, but any game designer who is looking at EvE as a model also needs to review the history of Ultima Online (which followed a similar sandbox model)...First of all I have to ask why any game designer in their right mind would choose to use a gear loss model with a gear dependent fantasy property...
You mean that PFO should be like WoW just to be sure?
...That's not to say that the sandbox concept is without merit, but any game designer who is looking at EvE as a model also needs to review the history of Ultima Online (which followed a similar sandbox model)...First of all I have to ask why any game designer in their right mind would choose to use a gear loss model with a gear dependent fantasy property...You mean that PFO should be like WoW just to be sure?
Not sure he meant THAT.
Personally, I think that wow has had a great success but it can be ... blah.PFO is still in the design phase and thus all we see is subject to change.
Would I like to see PFO a WoW clone? No, I would not. That will NOT make the game a success.
Some of the ideas that were listed in the blogs seem promising (random dungeon spawns, small threats that grow into large ones like a kobold
camp left unchecked) but these are not unheard of (Istaria does this to a lesser extent).
For now I am going to keep a close eye on things and see what else crops up and if I get a great idea, I'll drop it in here and see what happens with it.
Griefing is an unavoidable consequence in any game where there is Open PvP that does not acknowledge a gap in power.
People will be unable to compete on their 'level' and will go take out their aggression on new players.
Oh I understand that ... I was just shocked at the large numbers I encountered :(
There were 3 friendly people I met. Three. All others were more or less either trolling or griefing. Was sad really to see that. It let me know that once you reach a certain point in that game, that is all there is left to do if your not PvPing.|
Goblin Squad Member
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The key to keeping any internet community from degenerating into really undesirable behavior is active moderation. It sounds like Ryan is fully on board with that, and the slow-growth with invitation-only initial seeding should go a long way towards getting a critical mass of non-griefers in the game. The combination of an sizable non-griefing player base and active moderation (banning griefers) should make the game attractive to new players.