Warning: The EVE Way


Pathfinder Online

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Goblin Squad Member

Andius wrote:
Please don't play the "Don't force everyone to play the game you want to card."

I apologize.

Andius wrote:
Allowing every character access to all skills within their class gives distinct advantage over characters who only use a select subset.

Maybe the solution is to give better advantages to players who choose deep specialization in a smaller set of skills.

Ryan Dancey wrote:
My hope is that instead what you'll find is that you end up with character abilities that represent a matrix of what you've chosen to train, what you've chosen to do, and what you want to focus your character on being good at.

Yeah, something like that.

---

My main argument, that I've made ad nauseam in other threads, is that putting any kind of arbitrary cap on the skills I can utilize, whether it's by limiting me to 16 actions on my hotbar, or limiting me to X number of points on a Talent Tree a la WoW, will inevitably result in an "end-game" mentality. I don't want there to be a rush to "end-game" crap in PFO. I want constant character development, with ever greater options available to me.

Understand, I don't have the slightest problem with "organic" limitations. It's just the arbitrary limitations I object to.

Goblin Squad Member

My main desire is that the majority of "Player Skill" involved in combat is dependent on the players decision making and their aptitude in tactical thinking not thier skill at working the input device. That, I believe, would be in keeping with the spirit of a RPG system like Pathfinder.

If I wanted to play a console style fighting/action game... I have an Xbox and there are plenty of quality titles out there for that.

If I wanted to play an FPS style game....There are plenty of quality FPS style titles out on the market for that as well....and frankly Modern, WWII or Sci-Fi make much better genre's for that sort of style in play anyway....as you get to deal with guns & vehicles, etc.

I really hope PFO is more of a thinking mans style game....where the primary factor isn't about wrestling with the controls to see your intent realized in the game...but the intent itself. I feel this especialy important when thinking about the sort of things a hacker/cheater can do to automate inputs and responses when compared to someone playing straight up.

I don't begrudge anyone else thier preferences, but those are mine. I really don't want yet another game where combat devolves into how quickly you can mash a series of buttons on a keyboard/controler. Time for something different. YMMV.


GrumpyMel wrote:

My main desire is that the majority of "Player Skill" involved in combat is dependent on the players decision making and their aptitude in tactical thinking not thier skill at working the input device. That, I believe, would be in keeping with the spirit of a RPG system like Pathfinder.

If I wanted to play a console style fighting/action game... I have an Xbox and there are plenty of quality titles out there for that.

If I wanted to play an FPS style game....There are plenty of quality FPS style titles out on the market for that as well....and frankly Modern, WWII or Sci-Fi make much better genre's for that sort of style in play anyway....as you get to deal with guns & vehicles, etc.

I really hope PFO is more of a thinking mans style game....where the primary factor isn't about wrestling with the controls to see your intent realized in the game...but the intent itself. I feel this especialy important when thinking about the sort of things a hacker/cheater can do to automate inputs and responses when compared to someone playing straight up.

I don't begrudge anyone else thier preferences, but those are mine. I really don't want yet another game where combat devolves into how quickly you can mash a series of buttons on a keyboard/controler. Time for something different. YMMV.

I'm good with that general mentality. I love fast paced stuff, but as long as a system has alot of depth (WoW derivatives do not) to combat, instead of it being a DPS/CC race, I'm a happy camper. Something as simple as the inclusion of active defensive skills (not on a long cooldown) goes very far towards accomplishing this. Having the option and ability to dodge, block, parry, etc until reinforcements arrive against a stronger foe is much different than attempting to glue yourself to a tree or rock to LOS. One is exciting, and one is something very lame WoW's type of combat necessitates.

Goblin Squad Member

Yeah, I think Mel is right on track with my preferences here as well.

Goblin Squad Member

As it seems my post got eaten, I'll repost it again.

The EvE way can be fun if modified slightly.

You level up faster in game than out of game.

Offline leveling is only 50%.

Use that for skills you need leveled for a 'badge' or skills that you might find you're not using due to the actions of other players or NPCs, but you think/find are vital in other areas.

I would also like to see players get a chance to dictate attack poses. Player A can select 'flashy' in which the character does all little twirls and other 'Hollywood' fighting flourishes, Player B can select 'Brutal' in which their character performs attacks that seem to hit deep into the enemy's limbs and torso, so on and so forth.

Might even develop into 'Schools' of Fighting Styles, especially the Monk and Fighter classes.

Goblin Squad Member

@HalfOrcHeavyMetal, I really like the idea of being able to choose animation styles for my attacks. Maybe they're different skills entirely?

Goblin Squad Member

Yup, GrumpyMel's got the right idea. Strikes a good balance, I think.


Skwiziks wrote:
Yup, GrumpyMel's got the right idea. Strikes a good balance, I think.

No way. Having to wait 3-5 seconds per round, kinda like a semi-turn-based game? Imagine a battle with 100 people rofl wow. Pretty much every combat system in games requires planning, strategy, and tactics for optimal results (unless, of course, the battle is hugely imbalanced like a high level killing a low level in themepark MMO's).

You may think Call of Duty is all twitch, but players that are smart and can shoot a target before even being noticed are the real winners. Positioning, which gun to use, how to progress through a map, when to stun, when to use your secondary, where to place/throw your explosives, when to use your kill streaks; even the twitchiest will get owned if they don't know how to engage their enemies in the most effective manner.

To me, the perfect combat system values precision and reflexes AND intelligence and tactics.

Goblin Squad Member

What about two seconds per round? Or maybe even one? That is a good example of an effective combat system, but with what Ryan's said about hardware concerns, and this probably not being a highly instanced game, I just don't see a lighting-fast-paced combat system to be feasible. If it can be done, great! Assuming it can't, I like GrumpyMel's line of thinking.

Goblin Squad Member

HalfOrcHeavyMetal wrote:

As it seems my post got eaten, I'll repost it again.

The EvE way can be fun if modified slightly.

You level up faster in game than out of game.

Offline leveling is only 50%.

Use that for skills you need leveled for a 'badge' or skills that you might find you're not using due to the actions of other players or NPCs, but you think/find are vital in other areas.

I would also like to see players get a chance to dictate attack poses. Player A can select 'flashy' in which the character does all little twirls and other 'Hollywood' fighting flourishes, Player B can select 'Brutal' in which their character performs attacks that seem to hit deep into the enemy's limbs and torso, so on and so forth.

Might even develop into 'Schools' of Fighting Styles, especially the Monk and Fighter classes.

I disagree on the context of the 50% thing. Namely 2 reasons, while the power curve is intended to be lesser than normal games, I still would like an easy way to remain at the same pace as my fiance, regardless of whether one of us is working more each week, we can't both sign on as often etc...

Secondly with something as vague as "while online". Does that mean logged on afk counts? OK so you kick people off who are afk for 15 mins, what happens when they start writing scripts to walk around slightly every few minutes. Or are we only counting in combat... ok so someone who spends their time diplomatic and socializing goes slower etc... We are rapidly approaching skill through use territory in that case. While a nice hybrid, it does kill some of the things that I love about the skill through time system, namely the fact that me and my friends can easily stay at exactly be at the same grade always, the only variance in power being wealth, which between each-other we can opt to distribute as we desire.

As far as styles, I can say I do like the ideas of them, the more variance, the more personalization etc... a character can have, the better.


Onishi wrote:
While a nice hybrid, it does kill some of the things that I love about the skill through time system, namely the fact that me and my friends can easily stay at exactly be at the same grade always, the only variance in power being wealth, which between each-other we can opt to distribute as we desire.

What about the whole time ≠ power philosophy the developers go by? If time ≠ power, then what's the big deal of falling behind in terms of skills?

Goblin Squad Member

If time = options, then falling behind in terms of skills means falling behind in options. Which in theory would mean that you don't have access to the same game content in the same ways. Also it's just kind of nice to be able to keep up with your friends without much effort.

Goblin Squad Member

Onishi wrote:


I disagree on the context of the 50% thing. Namely 2 reasons, while the power curve is intended to be lesser than normal games, I still would like an easy way to remain at the same pace as my fiance, regardless of whether one of us is working more each week, we can't both sign on as often etc...

Feel your pain there, 58 hour, six day a week job here.

Quote:
Secondly with something as vague as "while online". Does that mean logged on afk counts? OK so you kick people off who are afk for 15 mins, what happens when they start writing scripts to walk around slightly every few minutes. Or are we only counting in combat... ok so someone who spends their time diplomatic and socializing goes slower etc... We are rapidly approaching skill through use territory in that case. While a nice hybrid, it does kill some of the things that I love about the skill through time system, namely the fact that me and my friends can easily stay at exactly be at the same grade always, the only variance in power being wealth, which between each-other we can opt to distribute as we desire.

There is that, but look at it from the other angle. You're in a hostile zone full of bandits, monsters and Player Killers. Your diplomacy and socializing skills aren't going to count for much against 90% of the encounters here.

But when you log, you can dictate that you want them leveled. While not nearly as fast as if you had actually gone to a Safe Zone and spent the time leveling them manually, it gives you the opportunity to ensure they remain at least somewhat competetive.

Also, perhaps depending upon your account status, the manner in which you log out, and the nature of the location you log out in, can all affect the speed of learning.

Premium account, you level up the skills as fast offline as online. You're paying your $15-$20 a month for everything, after all.

'Standard' account, you level up the skills at 75% when offline. You're not going for the works, but you're still putting money in Goblinwork's pocket.

'Free' account, you level up the skills at 50% when offline. You're not giving Goblinworks any money, so they're only giving you the bare bones of the game.

Now, the 'Logging off situation.

Let's assume the lowest denominator here, the 'Free' account.

A)Log Out in an empty field in hostile terrain, and you've done nothing else to your character in the process. Your basic 50% learning speed.

B)Log Out in an empty field in Neutral terrain, and you've done nothing else. 55% learning speed.

C)Log Out in an empty field in Safe terrain, and you've done nothing else. 60% learning speed.

Now let's do something else here.

A)As before, but you've used a player-made kit called the Basic Camp Site kit, have assembled a Basic Camp Site that gives you a tent and a fire pit. Log out, your character and the camp disappears, you gain a bonus 5% to your learning speed, for a total bonus of 55%.

B)As before, but you've used the Basic Camp Site kit. As above, but you have a Learning Speed now of 60%

C)As before, but you've used the Basic Camp Site kit. As above, but you have a Learning Speed of 65%.

Camp Site Kits could come in a range of types, providing Learning Speed bonuses and other bonuses too, depending upon the type. Heavy Weather kits could provide bonuses in Hexes where storms, floods or even fire-storms are a hazzard, Ranger kits could form a temporary base of operations for an hour after your character logs in, Noble kits could grant your character a moderate bonus to inter-personal skills for an hour afterwards because it contained everything you needed to look your best, etc etc.

Hell, while logging out in town is always a valid option, it should not necessarily be the best option for adventurers. This isn't a game where you wake up, go to work, slay the odd Troll, then go home and make dinner. This is a game where you travel the land, smite and talk and sneak your way to victory, so on and so forth. Trudging back to a town is necessary to restock and resupply, but it shouldn't be a 'every damn day in the inn' routine.

Unless that is what your character wants to do.

At which point, go forth, and remember to bring me back some mead this time!

I'm sorry, I should have explained this all before in my previous post.

Quote:
As far as styles, I can say I do like the ideas of them, the more variance, the more personalization etc... a character can have, the better.

Perhaps for melee there are three 'types' of stances you can take. Aggressive, Defensive, Balanced. While providing little in the way of mechanical benefits, each 'stance' sets how your character attack animations will be performed. I can't see how we can do that for ranged attacks with bows, guns and throwing weapons though....

Spellcasting .... I got nothing.

I think we're making the guys at Goblinworks cry at this stage, however.


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HalfOrcHeavyMetal wrote:

Perhaps for melee there are three 'types' of stances you can take. Aggressive, Defensive, Balanced. While providing little in the way of mechanical benefits, each 'stance' sets how your character attack animations will be performed. I can't see how we can do that for ranged attacks with bows, guns and throwing weapons though....

Spellcasting .... I got nothing.

I think we're making the guys at Goblinworks cry at this stage, however.

Spellcasting styles ? In an MMO, I can see perhaps spell casters have a "casting art" much the same way that non-casters' combat training are some form or flavor of "martial art".

(Palladium IIRC tied one's hand to hand combat training rather directly into the spell chucker's "rate of fire", so there is plenty of gaming based precedent.)

Possible idea: "borrow" Ninjas & Superspies and Mystic China, add on 4th ed HERO Ultimate Martial Artist and you have combat styles for everyone.

Ranged attack stances could be based on weapon in combination with posture and cover. Standing direct fire, standing indirect fire, crouching/kneeling direct/indirect fire, mounted direct/indirect fire should cover most of the bases. (Cover elements would factor in a whole range of variables: around a corner, behind a log, behind a wall, behind a firing port/slit, in ranks with other creatures firing volleys, etc.)

Combat styles for spell casters could vary by defensive casting / non defensive casting on the super simplest end. On the higher end, spell casting would combine with certain martial arts, especially ones that work well with a free hand or are unarmed combat styles.

Bards, NPC Aristocrats, Duelists, Gunslingers, Rogues: (a) French fencing (one-handed sword combat school - other schools taught sword and main-gauche) and (b) Savate (unarmed, noteworthy in that it was around IRL circa "age of sail" or earlier; practitioners are noted as being able to kick someone in the face from a "talking" stance, i.e., not having to shift footing to boot you in the head). There are/were Italian, German and Spanish schools of weapon combat that could be used as well.

Clerics, Inquisitors, some Paladins: possibly taught a specific combat style based on their patron Gawd(ess)'s church. Examples include pretty much any style of kung-fu excepting the "unarmed" ones - noteworthily excluding clerics of Irori, who would get the entire gamut to choose from. Clerics of Groetus (madmen all) and the Four Horsemen would likely be trained in very brutal, aggressive styles or hardly at all.

Druids, Rangers, some/most/all Witches: animal styles all the way - ironically, a "limiter" to build into the game could integrate the combat styles known with the "beast shapes" that a druid can morph into. Snake style kung-fu for druids that can morph into various serpents, tiger style/panther style/leopard style = druids morphing into various sizes of kittehs, etc. Ranger styles perhaps dovetail best into animal companion-derived styles unless the companion is a mount. (Then they to go Cavalier combat training, especially appropriate for Skirmisher archetype Rangers.) Witch styles tie directly to familiar choice.

Adepts: they're hosed, they are taught basic hand to hand. Simple animations and moves.

Summoners: similar to druids, combat style mirrors the "basic form" of eidolon (serpentine, crab, monkey, one of the cat styles, crane/eagle styles, etc). Even Master Summoners have an eidolon - whether used in play or not - that sympathizes to their martial art.

Alchemists: the Art of Throwing, anything, as a weapon. Also historical Chinese legend attributes this style in combination with another style to the lin kuei "forest demons", precursors to the ninja of Japan/Nippon. Most alchemists probably learn purely physical styles such as Pugilism, Pankratium (sp?) or Krav Maga with a smidge of weapons training appropriate to the style. Note that Pankratium is said to date back to the age of Heroic Greece, including armor, weapons, unarmed striking/grappling and dirty tricks training ...

Ninja: self explanatory, an-ch'i & art of throwing for some, taijutsu/weapons stuff/thrown weapons stuff for most. Ninja that are ninja only in class name but not culture - as would be the most likely case in PFO - would most likely get something similar to the Bard.

Sorcerers, Wizards: especially appropriate styles include Aikijutsu, Tai Ch'i-chuan and quite a few others. Such styles often center on using the enemy's strength against them and balancing/using one's personal energy. (For monks this is ch'i aka "ki", for arcane casters this is the replenishment of one's arcane energy/spells slots.)

Cavaliers, Fighters, Monks: pick your favorite, maybe even pick up 3 or 4 out of the gate among Unarmed, Melee (two-handed weapon), Melee (sword and board), Melee (mounted), Ranged (mounted), Melee (polearm reach weapon), Exotic Melee (chain reach weapon)... Monks get a variety of weapons depending upon the styles that they know. RL Kung-fu practitioners I understand are said to train in ~23 or 24 distinctly different melee weapons...

Goblin Squad Member

Twitch in an MMO will not work, period.

I like games that are not button mashing galore, because that leads to all kinds of combat enhancing apps and sooner than later you follow bars and blinks on you screen in order to maximise your DpS more than you follow the actual game.

3s seem ok for a game that is a real MMO game (something that WoW is not as you will never encounter more than a handful if people at the same time in the same place).

To the OP:
All that yo said could be said about any and all existing MMOs. Repetition is king, if you take out the shinies, noone would play (except maybe the few socialisers). If you make the shinies readily available noone plays for long.

Goblin Squad Member

I would not want my Wizard's ability to cast spells in any way related to his hand-to-hand fighting ability.

In my mind, my Wizard is a frail, delicate creature. He's not a Fireball-throwing Monk.

That said, I would love to see synergies available to Wizard Monks that let them do things like combine Shocking Grasp with a Karate Chop and create a much more powerful attack. I think it's going to be important to let characters embrace the spirit of their multi-class choices and combine them into an organic whole, rather than feeling like "Okay, I'm a Wizard this round, then I'm a Monk next round".


Hehehehe...sorry, immediately pictured this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=PWVhiIisH30#t= 46s

Wizard Monk?

Displacement + Shocking melee attacks?

Goblin Squad Member

Gee, thanks Marou_. Now, I'm going to have DeBarge stuck in my head all day.

"Feel the beat of the rhythm of the night..."

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:


That said, I would love to see synergies available to Wizard Monks that let them do things like combine Shocking Grasp with a Karate Chop and create a much more powerful attack. I think it's going to be important to let characters embrace the spirit of their multi-class choices and combine them into an organic whole, rather than feeling like "Okay, I'm a Wizard this round, then I'm a Monk next round".

I still fail to see how that particular synergy, or other synergies is not a blatent and direct significant increase in power, which we are overall hoping to avoid. Unless you add in a pretty noteworthy drawback to doing so, that is pretty much saying a 10 monk 10 wizard, should get an ability that does twice as much damage as a 10 monk or a 10 wizard can do seperately. That isn't being more versatile, that is "a much more powerful attack".

There is a reason I cringe and fear every time I hear the concepts of abilities stacking, especially in the category of DPS being stacked with DPS. Without some form of ballancing, that being said if some sort of drawback could be implimented, an added cast time, a greater visible que, Higher miss/resist chance compared to doing the skills seperately or perhaps some sort of exhaustion afterwards etc...

Goblin Squad Member

@Onishi, I totally get the fear about synergies creating overpowered multi-class characters.

However, I think it would be fairly easy to balance appropriately. You mention added cast time. I would think added cost (mana or fatigue or whatever) would also be a factor.

My desire is to create synergies which capture the spirit of the character without unbalancing everything.

It's difficult to really get too caught up in balance issues when there's so much we don't know, but I think there's another angle from which to view this. Namely, the amount of effort (time, merit badges, etc.) it takes to add 8 points of Shocking Grasp damage to an 8 point Karate Chop might very well end up being approximate to the amount of time it takes to turn an 8 point Karate Chop into a 16 point Karate Chop.

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:

@Onishi, I totally get the fear about synergies creating overpowered multi-class characters.

However, I think it would be fairly easy to balance appropriately. You mention added cast time. I would think added cost (mana or fatigue or whatever) would also be a factor.

My desire is to create synergies which capture the spirit of the character without unbalancing everything.

It's difficult to really get too caught up in balance issues when there's so much we don't know, but I think there's another angle from which to view this. Namely, the amount of effort (time, merit badges, etc.) it takes to add 8 points of Shocking Grasp damage to an 8 point Karate Chop might very well end up being approximate to the amount of time it takes to turn an 8 point Karate Chop into a 16 point Karate Chop.

Yeah mana or other cost could also be a factor, though that also is a huge dependence on the cost/difficulty/cooldown of mana/energy whatever potions. I remember one game ragnarok online that gave monks an ability called Asura, basically the design of the skill was an attack that did a purely insane amount of damage, bypassing all defense virtually a guaranteed 1 shot against anyone, the balancing factor of it, was that it used 100% of the mana of the monk, and prevented him from regening for 5 minutes, in the early days of the game it was fairly ballanced. Of course as the game went on, they started making mana potions more and more common, before long it became trivial for a monk to have enough mana potions to basically chug pots as soon as he attacked and be ready with another asura in under 2-3 seconds, completely negating the intended drawback, switching asura from a niche build, to the undeniable best and only used build for monks.

I suppose the moral of the story for the devs to take note of, whatever drawback is implemented for something, be sure to anticipate whether the long term direction for the game, is likely to negate it.

(I am not saying this is likely to be the case in PFO, we know nothing of the spell system, mana/energy system, or whether potions will have cooldowns, take time to consume etc...).

Goblin Squad Member

With respect to health and mana potions, I would prefer potions with significantly higher effects but significantly longer cooldowns than we're used to in games like WoW. Diablo always disgusted me with its reliance on spamming potions.

To me, the potions should be there as kind of an emergency escape valve, not as a general utility. I'm thinking along the lines of restoring half or more of health or mana, but with a 30 minute cooldown. I would also be quite happy if they were quite expensive to produce, both in time and resources.

The whole 2 minute cooldown for 5-10% healing just seems wrong to me.

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:

With respect to health and mana potions, I would prefer potions with significantly higher effects but significantly longer cooldowns than we're used to in games like WoW. Diablo always disgusted me with its reliance on spamming potions.

To me, the potions should be there as kind of an emergency escape valve, not as a general utility. I'm thinking along the lines of restoring half or more of health or mana, but with a 30 minute cooldown. I would also be quite happy if they were quite expensive to produce, both in time and resources.

The whole 2 minute cooldown for 5-10% healing just seems wrong to me.

This I can fully and completely get behind. Potions being spammed or being absolute requirements to gulp as often as possible is one of my biggest pet peve in many MMOs. I far preffer potioins being the exception rather than the rule, and I feel that too many games make them far too powerful. I came from the era when mana conservation was a strategy, not bringing enough potions that you can spam mindlessly

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:

@Onishi, I totally get the fear about synergies creating overpowered multi-class characters.

However, I think it would be fairly easy to balance appropriately. You mention added cast time. I would think added cost (mana or fatigue or whatever) would also be a factor.

My desire is to create synergies which capture the spirit of the character without unbalancing everything.

It's difficult to really get too caught up in balance issues when there's so much we don't know, but I think there's another angle from which to view this. Namely, the amount of effort (time, merit badges, etc.) it takes to add 8 points of Shocking Grasp damage to an 8 point Karate Chop might very well end up being approximate to the amount of time it takes to turn an 8 point Karate Chop into a 16 point Karate Chop.

The problem with the synergy thing and balancing issues is an essential side effect of decisions that they want to support inifinte advancement at the same time that they want players that have reached a certain threshold to be competitive with other players, no matter how far those other players have advanced.

That's why things like the 8 point Shocking Grasp + 8 Point Karate Chop doesn't equalize against the 16 point Karate Chop...the solution doesn't scale. It works just fine as long as the characters in question are both underneath the threshold (lets arbitrarly call it level 20...but it really could be whatever they decide to set it at)....but it breaks the instant the characters reach that threshold.

At some point... a character will reach the point where they've advanced thier Karate Chop ability to do the maximum damage possible... that's pretty much a requirement in order to allow players who've invested enough time to reach threshold to at least be competitive with players who have invested far more time advancing skills.

The problem arises at that point if you allow any sort of Shocking Grasp Damage to stack with your maximum 16 point Karate Chop. At that point, you are creating an ability that is not just more versatile then the player who reached Threshold....but much more powerfull in the raw sense. Pretty much defeats the goal of having the 2 year player be able to compete with the 7 year player. So time invested to learn something really can't be utilized as a balancing factor once you approach the threshold.

You CAN attempt to introduce other balancing factors...manna, casting time, etc....but the problem there is you can NEVER allow any other skill/ability to be learned by that character (say from another class) that mitigates or nullifies that balancing factor....otherwise you've just destroyed compentiveness again. That opens up a whole ugly, complicated can of worms for the Developers to juggle when considering a design that allows for 11+ classes (who knows maybe more in future)....gods knows how many skills/abilities available to players...and equipment and magic items on top of that.

There is a real catch 22 involved with the competing design goals of infinite advancement and PvP competitiveness AND you start wanting to support synergies and stacking bonuses on top of that.

PnP rule-sets like Pathfinder and D&D have an easier time supporting such synergies/stacking because...

1) They were NOT designed to support infinite advancement in the first place. They have both a mechanical and a practical (to the campaign) advancement limit.

2) They are geared toward PVE rather then PVP, so don't have to focus as closely on competitiveness.

3) They are human moderated. The GM doesn't have to write program code to take into acount all possible character design choices and gear combinations. The GM can judge and make rulings on individual character design & gear choices as they come up...and simply disallow the ones that would make a character too powerfull... "Sorry Mr. Monk...but you need a Wizard to teach you how to Multi-Class into a Wizard...and none of the (NPC) Wizards in the Campaign seem interested in doing so." More importantly, they are making sure that all the players in the Campaign are advancing at (roughly) the same rate...so the players can continue to play together as a group.

It's not that I don't sympathize with your ideas...but given the stated design goals of PFO...it strikes me as a very ugly and complicated can of worms to try to open up...from a design persepective.

Goblin Squad Member

GrumpyMel wrote:
At some point... a character will reach the point where they've advanced thier Karate Chop ability to do the maximum damage possible...

Not necessarily. Again, it's hard to speak about this intelligently when there's so much we don't know, but it's possible that there's no hard, arbitrary cap on Skill Ranks. It could be that most people just stop getting better at Karate Chop when it's going to take 8 months to get another 1 point of damage.

GrumpyMel wrote:
It's not that I don't sympathize with your ideas...but given the stated design goals of PFO...it strikes me as a very ugly and complicated can of worms to try to open up...from a design persepective.

Yeah, I think I have an appreciation of where you stand, too ;)

A couple of ideas for balancing synergies:

Base Damage on Skill Points

Imagine that Skill Points represent a constant unit of training time (say, 15 minutes). Skill Ranks equal the base-2 logarithm of the Skill Points, so that Rank 1 = 2 Skill Points, Rank 2 = 4, Rank 3 = 8, Rank 4 = 16, etc.

Now, let's assume that damaging attacks are normalized to 4 points per Rank on a curve, so that you get an additional 1 point of damage for each multiple of one quarter of the SP required for the next rank.

Rank 0 (SP 1) = 2 points.
Rank 1 (SP 2) = 4 points.
Rank 1 (SP 3) = 6 points.
Rank 2 (SP 4) = 8 points.
Rank 2 (SP 5) = 9 points.
Rank 2 (SP 6) = 10 points.
Rank 2 (SP 7) = 11 points.
Rank 3 (SP 8) = 12 points.
Rank 3 (SP 10) = 13 points.
Rank 3 (SP 12) = 14 points.
Rank 3 (SP 14) = 15 points.
Rank 4 (SP 16) = 16 points.
Rank 4 (SP 20) = 17 points.
Rank 4 (SP 24) = 18 points.
Rank 4 (SP 28) = 19 points.
Rank 5 (SP 32) = 20 points.

In order to calculate the damage of a synergistic attack, you would add the Skill Points for each attack and use that to determine the new damage.

In our example, the Karate Chop and the Shocking Grasp both do 8 points each, so they're SP 4 attacks. SP 8 = 12 points, so the Shocking Chop would do 12 points of damage, not 16.

Because this only limits raw base damage, and most synergistic attacks will probably be chosen for their additional effects, I would recommend a rather significant cost increase as well, which leads us to...

Base Costs on number of Abilities being combined

Let's pretend melee attacks and magic both cost Fatigue Points, and that attack abilities cost a number of Fatigue Points equal to their Rank. In our example, the Karate Chop and the Shocking Grasp both normally cost 2 FP.

A synergistic attack should add the costs of each component ability, rather than basing the cost on the composite Skill Rank. So, our Shocking Chop, while doing damage as a Rank 3 ability, would cost 4 FP, instead of 3.

At higher levels, this cost becomes even more significant, as the exponential nature of the Ranks comes into play. If our Karate Chop and our Shocking Grasp were each Rank 5, doing 20 points each, the composite Shocking Chop would only do 24 points of damage, but would cost 10 FP instead of 6.

---

These ideas allow the multi-class character to enjoy the look and feel of being able to combine their abilities, but keeps them from being unduly powerful.


MicMan wrote:
Twitch in an MMO will not work, period.

You mean except where it already does, or did a way long time ago, like WW2 online?

MicMan wrote:


I like games that are not button mashing galore, because that leads to all kinds of combat enhancing apps and sooner than later you follow bars and blinks on you screen in order to maximise your DpS more than you follow the actual game.

3s seem ok for a game that is a real MMO game (something that WoW is not as you will never encounter more than a handful if people at the same time in the same place).

Can't tell if trolling, crashed Stormwind many times in vanilla on account of having hundreds of people battling there.

MicMan wrote:


To the OP:
All that yo said could be said about any and all existing MMOs. Repetition is king, if you take out the shinies, noone would play (except maybe the few socialisers). If you make the shinies readily available noone plays for long.

Yeah, I still gotta hit level 50 in Minecraft, I'm already 1000 hours in and...OH WAIT, THERE ARE NO LEVELS AND I'VE BEEN ABLE TO MAKE ALL THE ITEMS SINCE HOUR 2...

------------------------

Just because the carrot on a stick might work on psychologically weak people, doesn't mean it's good game design or universally what compels a gamer. If time reward is the only appeal of an MMO, it's just a crappy game. It's why I don't play any of the mainstream stuff for extended periods of time. I'm still waiting on a game to give me a big fantasy sandbox that's actually *FUN* to play around in, instead of boring timelocks and theoretical *may be fun someday* thinking. Maybe PFO will be that game.

The protip I've gleaned over the years from MMO's is that the game is as fun 1/10th of the way in as it will ever be.

Goblin Squad Member

A bit more on normalizing damage.

Imagine that certain attack abilities include a Damage Multiplication Factor. Perhaps Karate Chop is 0.8 and Shocking Grasp is 1.5. Our Karate Chop is SP 4 for 8 points of base damage, multiplied by 0.8 results in 6.4 damage. Our Shocking Grasp is SP 4 for 8 points of base damage, multiplied by 1.5 for results in 12 points of damage.

In order to calculate the final damage of the combined attack, we would take 0.8 times 4 (SP of KC) plus 1.5 times 4 (SP of SG) divided by 8 (total SP) for a total DMF of 1.15.

The SP 8 combined attack has a base damage of 12, multiplied by 1.15 results in total damage of 13.8 damage.


Jeez, all I was talking about was ways to choose animations for combat based on real martial arts styles.

That having been said, a Wizard at 1st level is a frail thing barely able to avoid tripping over the hem of their homespun robes. An archmage is multipliers more competent in physical combat without magic. The Wizard is a comparative wuss relative to a Fighter Lord of roughly the same level. This does not change the fact that the Wizard has learned how to hold their own in a fight even totally bereft of spells. Attaching a martial art style is a way to reflect the Wizard's combat training (base attack bonus). Electing ones that fit the class thematically works well and provides another way to differentiate characters.

Runlord Karzoug's combat style is a LOT different from the "typical" unarmed/staff-wielding Archmage. The whole "glaive" thing you see.

If a group of sorceror/wizards go adventuring together, it would sure be nice to see Bob's elf Wizard fending off goblins with his longsword while Sarah's Earth Elemental bloodline Sorceress smacks the football-headed little buggers around with Krav Maga. Joe's Diviner is nimbly dodging, ducking and body-flipping with his divination-guided tai-ch'i whilst Amy's djinni bloodline sorceress is on the all-out defense since she's clutching Bob's and Joe's chihuahua familiars, her defense animations based on the ccircular defenses of air/cyclone/whirlwind.

Mechanically they're the same (for the most part), visually they're radically different, reflecting the character's combination of race, class and (hopefully) whatever analogs there are to Feats.

Scarab Sages

Some of the complaints being brought up about low-level people not having many choices in EVE is just flat out wrong.

My first week in EVE I got my GoonSwarm friend to show me the the basics while I did the tutorials. By my third day I was killing Ruptures and Frigates in Minmatar Lowsec in a Tier 1 fitted Rifter worth less than 1m ISK.

It's kind of like Conan Online: no matter your level or "skill level", people can still kill you easily given the right circumstances. It'd be cool if Pathfinder online did this too.


Trust me, coming from BoB in EvE I saw truly that low-level players can be just as effective as Titans if used right. Of course the lower your level the harder it will be to kill someone but that is just something that a person has to deal with. If you want to be better play the game more.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

I have a different line of thought for the 'shocking chop' idea:
Let the damage and effects combine additively, but the costs combine at a higher rate.

If the karate chop and shocking touch can be used -sustainably- at a rate of 1 per 5 seconds, (e.g. "fatigue" regenerates at 10/second, and those abilities use 50 "fatigue" to execute), then the shocking chop would be sustainable at a rate of 1 per 15 seconds (50 fatigue for the chop, 50x2 fatigue for the shocking).

Other effects could be added to an attack, for increasing cost: If the 'stunning' effect has a base cost of 100, a 'stunning chop' would have a total cost of (100+50x2) 200, and the 'stunning and shocking chop' would cost (100+50x2+50x3) 350.

If we use the HAM concept from SWG (multiple values which each serve the functions of HP and fatigue), the 'stunning and shocking chop' would cost (100a+50x2a+50x3m) 200 action and 150 mind, or (100a+50x2m+50x3a) 250 action and 100 mind, or even (50m+100x2a+50x3a) 350 action and 50 mind.

With regard to healing, I suggest stealing and modifying the 'surge' concept from 4e: Allow a character to receive healing (from any source) only so often. Two clerics CAN heal more people, but they CAN'T heal one person twice as much; if you don't have a healer in the party, you can drink potions, but not spam them. I realize that this suggestion creates an opportunity to grief by using low-level healing powers on somebody, preventing effective ones from being used. Tabletop gaming prevents that method of griefing by allowing the target to choose not to heal, and also by putting the players within melee combat reach. I don't think requiring a player to acknowledge healing is the best way to limit potion spamming.

Goblin Squad Member

@Decius, the problem with just controlling for costs is that you allow spike damage to take out players quickly. If you can kill your opponent before you run out of fatigue, it doesn't matter how quickly you'll regen.

The reason I think normalizing damage off of Skill Points is a good solution is because it should be consistent across all skills. The time it takes to gain 24 damage in Karate Chop should be the exact same time it would take to get 24 damage in Shocking Chop. The benefit would come from any secondary effects, and from the sheer style of it.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Nihimon wrote:

@Decius, the problem with just controlling for costs is that you allow spike damage to take out players quickly. If you can kill your opponent before you run out of fatigue, it doesn't matter how quickly you'll regen.

The reason I think normalizing damage off of Skill Points is a good solution is because it should be consistent across all skills. The time it takes to gain 24 damage in Karate Chop should be the exact same time it would take to get 24 damage in Shocking Chop. The benefit would come from any secondary effects, and from the sheer style of it.

What good does it do to do twice the damage at three times the cost, if the cost is measured in the same units as the damage? That's why I suggested something analogous to the HAM system, which would make all cannons glass cannons.

A different option would be to allow attacks which target the opponent's fatigue, or defenses which block an attack at some fatigue cost, or some other character/equipment/tactic combination which would consistently beat 'I hit you with the highest damage power repeatedly.'

Goblin Squad Member

I would think that a wizard/monk who could imbue their attacks with magical properties would need to give up a lot of their monk abilities as well as access to a lot of their wizard spells, particularly high level ones.

That could easily balance things out. Monks get things like defensive and agility bonuses, while the most powerful spells, offensive and otherwise, are reserved for high level mages.

I monk is going to get more damage from their non-magical attacks as well as having higher defense, snatch arrows, etc.

A full wizard will have access to very powerful spells and be able to use a lot more spells daily.

How you simulate this in MMO terms, is that if a wizard mixes with a non-arcane class such as monk they lose access to certain spells including their high level spells, as well as having a reduced mana pool/regeneration.

A monk that mixes with other classes will have less bonuses to their unarmed attacks and defense as well as less ki abilities etc.

The resulting monk wizard hybrid would result in a class less durable than a monk, but more durable with a wizard who can augment their melee attacks with magic to result in high damage output, but they might not be able to out-DPS a wizard and surely would have less abilities that can be used at a range. Semi-squishy super high DPS class that has to operate in melee range along with more durable classes like full Monks, Barbarians, and Fighters. They also probably have a higher miss chance. Sounds fairly balanced to me. I wouldn't play one. XD

Goblinworks Executive Founder

I think the biggest tradeoff might be that only wizard abilities which are or can be attached to a melee strike can be used with the monk abilities which are melee strikes (or perhaps even more restrictively, unarmed attacks). You could combine touch of fatigue for a tiring chop, but not ray of frost for a freezing chop.

The wizard/ranger, however, might be able to combine ray of frost with a ranged attack, for a freezing arrow. Shocking grasp, conversely, wouldn't be usable in any form while attacking with archery, but lightning bolt might. It might be hard to find a set of equipment which has decent values for 'arcane attack' and 'bow attack', but I'm sure there's something out there for aspiring arcane archers.

Likewise, abilities might be usable with wizard powers: Bullseye shot could used to grant improved accuracy to a ray or ranged touch attack, at a cost similar to using it for a bow attack.

Disclaimer: All spell, feat, and ability names are for illustrative purposes only. If they don't do what I think they do according to the PFSRD, consider them to do what I think they do for the purpose of this discussion.

Goblin Squad Member

Gores wrote:

Some of the complaints being brought up about low-level people not having many choices in EVE is just flat out wrong.

My first week in EVE I got my GoonSwarm friend to show me the the basics while I did the tutorials. By my third day I was killing Ruptures and Frigates in Minmatar Lowsec in a Tier 1 fitted Rifter worth less than 1m ISK.

It's kind of like Conan Online: no matter your level or "skill level", people can still kill you easily given the right circumstances. It'd be cool if Pathfinder online did this too.

What does the rest of your quote have to do with choices? As a newb you can kill other newbs in low sec fairly quickly. You can also move into doing something like tackling targets for big friends or scouting in a shuttle in no time at all, but ANY role you can fill with a tech 1 frigate can be drastically better filled from a tech 2 frigate. Put a wolf or jaguar up against your rifter or anything your rifter killed and see how it goes. Or if you want to be a primary tackler then interceptors are still going to be stronger than your rifter and do a much better job at tackling. Or you can scout.. cover ops ship fitted with a cloaking device that even allows you to warp around unseen.

Training a T2 frigate, the skills to tech 2 fit it, and your important support skills is going to take a month minimum. All those ships will take around 20 days not counting support skills or skills to fit modules... which you will probably want to be T2. Also note that the finished product is only going to be able to handle level 2 missions or MAYBE 3 but certainly not level 4s. You have no skills in trading, you have no skills in mining, therefore you don't have a very solid income to support the usage of said ship in PVP because you cannot replace said ship.

Getting a mission ship that can not only handle level 4 missions, but do them in a timely and therefore profitable fashion is going to take awhile. For instance a Raven along with the recommended skills is supposed to take about 70 days to train. Just getting in to a BS with decent support skills and a couple T2 modules doesn't mean you can get level 4s done in a timely manner as I quickly found out when I tried my first level 4s without tech 2 weapons.

Alternatively you could mine. If you want to mine effectively you want a hulk (About 50 days), or at minimum a covetor (Also about 50 days just drastically less expensive.) It is drastically less profitable than level 4 missions, but I can do it while sitting here posting on these forums, or doing housework, or using the bathroom.

Using my mining skills for funding and the fact that I can fly Amarr and Caldari T2 frigates, with support skills and T2 gear... your 3 day old rifter really doesn't stand much of a chance.

If you want to do logistics, to use gang-help modules, to do basically anything other than fly cheap cannon fodder this all takes considerable training.

So yes, you are at a heavy disadvantage coming in to EVE with low skills. No, you don't have a lot of choices until you take A LOT of time to branch out and train in different areas.

Lantern Lodge

Actually, think about the aspects then base cost off of those
option a two abilities separate
chop 1sec 8dmg 10sta cost
shock 1sec 8 dmg 10 mana cost
total 2 sec 16 dmg 10s 10m cost

option b two abilities stacked
chop shock 1 sec 16 dmg 15s 15m cost

dmg x2
time x2 (as in twice as good)
each multiple adds .25 to the cost of each ability

The idea being is it costs you based on the output regardless of which ability gives that output. younger chars might like this because it evens the field vs higher lvls but at high lvls with longer fights the cost really starts to dig in and older players will do them separate to keep the cost down.

Summary each skill cost increases equal to the increase output of the added abilities

this is good for fights where you are going to die regardless aka sacrificial or when fighting with low powered abilities because as abilities get better they cost more but your energy pools most likely wont increase near as fast as your powers cost.

Lantern Lodge

Alternativly use the pnp system cast each atk is a separate action but they go off at same time.

For those the miss it, shocking grasp and other touch spells are cast then remain active until discharged by touch with someone, if the next time I touch them happens to be when I punch them then oww but i still paid the cost in energy and time and mats.

sure some abilities dont need to be activated (like snk atk) but since everybody can lvl anything, anyone who likes to snk up on people will probably train snk atk and if they dont its likely because they wont snk up on you in which case snk atk wouldnt help them anyway.

the passive bonuses are all limited by circumstance thus severly reducing their lack of balance.

And if actives each have to be cast separate that adds a cost of time and prep work as well.

Goblin Squad Member

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In the end, there should be an equation that takes in cost, damage, and time. And balances them all with each other. You can have high damage and high speed, but the cost will be very high.

If a player will be able to build a ability combination that kills someone, it should effectively make them a glass cannon. One usage of the combo effectively exhausts them and makes them very easy to take down. So if you are out in the world and someone ambushes you and kills you in seconds, you can know that the cute little bunny just saw a target that it can kill, and your attacker is brought to fuzzy justice by carrot breath followed by lucky kick.

Goblin Squad Member

Marou_ wrote:
You mean except where it already does, or did a way long time ago, like WW2 online?

WW2 Online is not an MMO in the sense that there are 100+ people on screen regularily.

WoW Stormwind never happens any more because Blizzard took all incentive for that out of the game in order to make WoW an IMO (instanced multiplayer) instead of a massive multiplayer.

And, just for the record, Minecraft is not a "classic MMO" and neither is Sims online or what have you. These are entirely different games with very different motivations.

Goblin Squad Member

Valkenr wrote:
In the end, there should be an equation that takes in cost, damage, and time. And balances them all with each other. You can have high damage and high speed, but the cost will be very high.

In my experience that doesn't work in an MMO.

A combination of skills that kills other PCs very effectively on the cost of being a push over will either be OP'ed in many situations (such as massive 100vs100 on screen battles or 1vs1) or unplayable.

You can be an effective melee char or an effective ranged char or an effective healer or all of the above (if you are "old" enough) but not at the same time.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Andius wrote:
... You can also move into doing something like tackling targets for big friends or scouting in a shuttle in no time at all, but ANY role you can fill with a tech 1 frigate can be drastically better filled from a tech 2 frigate.

The Goonswarm isn't choosing between having another T2 frigate and having another T1 frigate. They are choosing between having another T1 frigate and having nothing at all.

A party with a high-level wizard, high-level fighter, and low-level rogue is more powerful than one with only the wizard and fighter.

Goblin Squad Member

- On Action based combat... WWII Online is a great game (played it for about 6 months) and they definately make thier style of FPS combat work for them on a large scale, despite being a 10 year old engine.

However, if you note that despite FPS style controls, the pace of combar in WWII Online is actualy rather slow and deeply tactical (one of the reasons I liked it so much). It is definately NOT "twitch" or "action" based....but more about finding good cover, picking the right spot and the right approach, maintaining situational awareness, coordinating your actions with others and figuring out the conditions on when and how to move and when/how/if to engage a target (especialy the infantry game). "Player skill" in that game is NOT really so much about manual dexterity and reaction time it's about tactical thinking.

A big part of the reason for that (IMO) is that it uses much more realistic (i.e. slow) movement rates and MUCH larger engagement distances. An infantry "sprint" in WWII-Online, which you can only do for a few seconds, is about the same speed as the STANDARD character movement rate in most MMO's....and running in the open in combat is about the surest way to get yourself killed as an infantryman... you spend most of your time crawling on your belly, or staying hidden & stationary...and when you do run, it's maybe a few yards before you flop down into the next bit of cover or into a building. The standard engagement range for infantry is typicaly 100 meters or more...and you can shoot somebody out to around 400 meters with a rifle (especialy if scoped)... vehicle combat is actualy out to 1km.

Thus the movement rate, combined with the scale, combined with the combat dynamics (and the fact that it's WWII weaponary) make the combat workable..... trying to do the same thing with WOW style distances and movement rates or even Battlefield series with an MMO and it wouldn't work.... and yes WWII Online does get stuttery and glitchey when you get more players then a typical big FPS in a small area of the game map.

More importantly for the purposes of PFO.... WWII Online uses it's own custom built proprietary engine specificaly designed to support it's style game-play. I believe that holds true for all the MMO's that are offering more "actiony" style combat. From what I've read, GW isn't interested in building it's own custom engine for PFO... they want to leverage existing engines that are commercialy available.... so unless there is something out there availble for licensing that already supports "Actiony" style combat on an MMO scale... I suspect this part of the discussion is largely academic as far as PFO goes. I could be wrong...but that's been my general impression from what I've read of the Dev statements so far.

Goblin Squad Member

On EvE... I've never played it so I can't speak directly to it...but from my understanding, the way they achieve balance/competitiveness is PRECISELY because combat abilities don't "stack" to a significant degree.

As, I understand it (and EvE players correct me if I'm wrong)... a players combat ability is dependant entirely upon the ship they are flying. A player can learn to max out a ship type/style (say Frigate) for a reasonable investment in time.... and that ship type/style has a valuable role to play in the game. The older player can learn to fly different ship types/styles so they have more versatility/options in how to play the game (i.e. "wider not deeper") but learning to fly a Titan or a Cruiser or whatever doesn't make them any better at flying a frigate then the guy that's max'd out flying frigates (and only frigates). That's why the game can work in terms of competiveness.

From my perspective that doesn't translate well to what folks here have been suggesting when they talk about synergies and stacking abilities in PFO. The translation would be if learning to fly a Titan made you 50% more powerfull at flying a frigate then the guy who just learned to fly frigates at maximum ability for frigates.

If you follow that model...with PFO....then the guy who max'd all 11 classes would be 500% more powerfull then the guy who just max'd one. Doesn't work for competiveness.

What you would have to do is make those synergies or stacking "self-balanicing" by having each DIRECT benefit you get from them come at some corresponding cost/penalty. I think that's somewhat along the lines of what Nihiomon is suggesting. While I think that's THEORETICALY possible when I think about the practical implimentation of that....
You'd have to account for a character that was ANY combination of from 1-11 different classes, in any combination of 1-20 possible levels in EACH of those classes.... with 1 - X knows how many potential build types for each class.... and do that for each of Y knows how many abilities that can potential stack & synergize.... and then factor in Z numbers of different equipment/magic items that can effect the balance equation. I have a tough time imagining some-one pulling off that sort of design balance in even a half-way decent fasion....especialy when working with a limited development budget, and trying to tackle all the other very ambitious systems that GW has mentioned so far for PFO.

If they actualy pulled it off...my hat would be off to them....and I certainly would LOVE to see them achieve it. However, from my perspective that'd kinda be like handing them a table-spoon and asking them to dig the panama canal with it while juggling 3 bowling balls, composing a symphony and dodging artillery barrages.

I'm already hugely impressed with the design goals and systems they've outlined they intend to put in PFO.... I just can't imagine adding significant complexity in any system on top of those...and expecting them to achieve it. YMMV.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

GrumpyMel wrote:


From my perspective that doesn't translate well to what folks here have been suggesting when they talk about synergies and stacking abilities in PFO. The translation would be if learning to fly a Titan made you 50% more powerfull at flying a frigate then the guy who just learned to fly frigates at maximum ability for frigates.

If you follow that model...with PFO....then the guy who max'd all 11 classes would be 500% more powerfull then the guy who just max'd one. Doesn't work for competiveness.

You're thinking that a wizard/fighter can cast spells and swing a sword at the same time, for additive effectiveness and constant (or maybe additive cost).

I have not seen any suggestions to that effect.

I think it's more like having a frigate and a battleship, and being able to swap between them in some as-yet undefined manner. It could be as simple as sheathing and drawing a weapon, or as complex as going back to a station and getting a different ship.

Goblin Squad Member

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Andius wrote:
As a newb you can kill other newbs in low sec fairly quickly. You can also move into doing something like tackling targets for big friends or scouting in a shuttle in no time at all, but ANY role you can fill with a tech 1 frigate can be drastically better filled from a tech 2 frigate.

This is the logic that escapes me.

"You can do all these things. But since it's possible that if you waited months of time you could do them better, there's no point in doing them immediately."

The obsession with not doing a thing at all unless you can do it at the maximum possible effectiveness just makes no sense to me whatsoever.

You're a new player with a low-skilled character and cheap ships & modules. You can go kill some other newbs in losec. Why not do that? It's fun! You can tackle targets for big friends, so why not do it, and start contributing something to your Corporation? You can scout out danger and help keep your buddies from walking into a gatecamp or an ambush, so you should do that and be the hero.

The logical way to play EVE is to do something as soon as you can do it, not wait until you can do it perfectly. During the time you're training to do it perfectly, you'll be learning how to actually use those ships and modules that you're training for. So when you get them, you'll be able to use them at a high level of proficiency. And you have all the fun of actually playing the game along the way.

RyanD


Ryan Dancey wrote:
Andius wrote:
As a newb you can kill other newbs in low sec fairly quickly. You can also move into doing something like tackling targets for big friends or scouting in a shuttle in no time at all, but ANY role you can fill with a tech 1 frigate can be drastically better filled from a tech 2 frigate.

This is the logic that escapes me.

"You can do all these things. But since it's possible that if you waited months of time you could do them better, there's no point in doing them immediately."

The obsession with not doing a thing at all unless you can do it at the maximum possible effectiveness just makes no sense to me whatsoever.

You're a new player with a low-skilled character and cheap ships & modules. You can go kill some other newbs in losec. Why not do that? It's fun! You can tackle targets for big friends, so why not do it, and start contributing something to your Corporation? You can scout out danger and help keep your buddies from walking into a gatecamp or an ambush, so you should do that and be the hero.

The logical way to play EVE is to do something as soon as you can do it, not wait until you can do it perfectly. During the time you're training to do it perfectly, you'll be learning how to actually use those ships and modules that you're training for. So when you get them, you'll be able to use them at a high level of proficiency. And you have all the fun of actually playing the game along the way.

RyanD

It's a paradox created by the harsh death system and economy of the game. You need to have better ships to have the economic capacity to afford losing ships. As such if you want to PvP it's reasonable to attempt to get to level 3-4 missions as rapidly as possible. You'll also want to spend some time on salvaging skills to maximize profit.

Then, X weeks later, you can PvP, and if you have a bad night you're not out of doing what you want to do (PvP) for days running low level missions to grind up the funds to get back to where you were. Assuming of course that you are not being bankrolled by a corp or buying time to sell for ISK. The amount of time required to replace a well equipped Rifter is trivial if you are running level 4's. It's certainly not if you are only able to run level 1's and 2's. Logic dictates you shouldn't fly anything you can't afford to lose. As someone stuck doing level 1-2 missions, you can't afford to lose a well equipped Rifter, which means you shouldn't PvP in it.

Goblin Squad Member

DeciusBrutus wrote:
GrumpyMel wrote:


From my perspective that doesn't translate well to what folks here have been suggesting when they talk about synergies and stacking abilities in PFO. The translation would be if learning to fly a Titan made you 50% more powerfull at flying a frigate then the guy who just learned to fly frigates at maximum ability for frigates.

If you follow that model...with PFO....then the guy who max'd all 11 classes would be 500% more powerfull then the guy who just max'd one. Doesn't work for competiveness.

You're thinking that a wizard/fighter can cast spells and swing a sword at the same time, for additive effectiveness and constant (or maybe additive cost).

I have not seen any suggestions to that effect.

I think it's more like having a frigate and a battleship, and being able to swap between them in some as-yet undefined manner. It could be as simple as sheathing and drawing a weapon, or as complex as going back to a station and getting a different ship.

Look at Nihimons intial example....Wizard/Monk has an attack that does 16 points total damage (8 for the Wizards Shocking Grasp + 8 for the Monks Karate Chop). While the straight Wizard or the straight monk would only do 8 points in the same attack.

That's the type of synergy/stacking effects that is being addressed here. It's a DIRECT increase in RAW POWER of the character in given role.

What you are talking about with the CHOICE of swinging a sword or casting a spell does NOT entail the synergy/stacking issue being addressed. It is an increase in the VERSATILITY of the character. In it's own way that IS an increase in the power of the character but it's NOT as direct or problematic to competitevness as the "stacking/synergy" role. In your example the Level 20/20 Fighter/Wizard is NOT a better fighter then the Level 20 Fighter, nor a better Wizard then the Level 20 Wizard. He just gets the option to switch between roles as circumstances dictate. That (IMO) is workable at least to some degree.

In Nihimons initial example the Level 20/20 Monk Wizard IS better at being a Wizard then then Level 20 Wizard and better at being a Monk then the Level 20 Monk. It's not just the versatility to switch between roles that he gains over the less advanced character it's also the RAW POWER in each of those ROLES. He's a better Wizard because some portion of his Monk abilities DIRECTLY ADD (i.e. "stack") to his performance AS A WIZARD.

The only way to practicaly address that at maintain balance (as I think was being addressed in Nihimons follow up post) is to have learning those levels in Monk DETRACT from his performance as a Wizard in an amount roughly equivalent to the degree that they ADD to it, so the sum total of the performance remains ROUGHLY equal. I agree, in THEORY, that may be possible....in PRACTICE I believe it's a very difficult and complicated design to impliment well.


A few basic pointers for EVE early missioning:

* Don't spend more than a third to half of your funds at any one time.

* Run all *but* the Exploration tutorial missions. Buy the time you've done all the rest of them, you should have 2 or 3 tier 1 industrials, several mining frigates and at least one very good combat frigate. This does not count for the skill books provided that you won't have to buy, the several million ISK that should be in your wallet and a healthy chance of being recruited within the first 2 or 3 days. You will have very basic building and mining capabilities - not enough to realize a profit from industry, but mining has become ridiculously lucrative these days with the removal of drone poo.

* NEVER be afraid to run away from a PvE fight. You can warp off, recharge capacitor and shields, warp back in and mop up, repeating as necessary. Too many new players don't acknowledge the simplest fact of EVE PVE: you can almost always disengage. If you find you are bieng warp scrambled - indicated on your overview as to who is doing it to you by an icon - that just became your priority target to obliterate PDQ.

* If a mission is too hard, you can complete it within a week of accepting it. If it is too hard later, quit the mission and move on. Try asking for help first, you might be surprised.

* Use the in-game notepad! Make notes for yourself in-game on anything of interest.

* The different mission levels are largely designed around the tech 1 hulls that can do them. Level 1 = frigates and destroyers; Level 2 = cruisers; Level 3 = battlecruisers; Level 4 = battleships. You can generally complete the missions within the bonus window. If the bonus window is 5-6 hours, get a friend or swap up to a bigger ship, preferably both.

* With a few exceptions, most ships have a drone bay. Use these little mini-onions once you start getting them as loot drop. They are there to be expended. If you can use 4 scout drones with level 2-4 support skills, you can chew through missions pretty easily. Early on the drones can be used to take initial aggro for you. Later, you want to take all of the aggro from a given group of mobs *before* deploying your drones.

* The difference between a fresh pilot and a veteran with "all the skills" (Elite Core Competency certification as a primary example) is 25% if all else is equal [hull, modules, ammunition and any drones]. That's it as far as skills go, the rest come somewhat from affording better fittings, most come from experience and knowledge of what to expect. 1 on 1, with no difference in tactics between the two, the veteran wins by attrition.

* If it sounds too good to be true, IT IS. Scams succeed because people don't pay attention. Check character biographies, search their contract histories and above all READ the contracts closely!

* Your clone holds so many SP "safe" in case you get podded/killed. The "free" clone is good for at least your first two weeks of constant training. Make use of this for all it's worth. Once you break the 900k SP 'barrier', upgrade your clones regularly. Losing 5% of the SP from Frigate V is only going to be your own fault if you forget this key facet of your characters.

* Do not forget to keep your skill queue loaded, if nothing else by front loading the short train time stuff while you're playing and keeping the days/weeks long stuff on the back burner to train while you're off line.

* Making ISK is about the easiest thing - how *exciting* it is varies by activity undertaken compared to your personal interests. If you're studying, just feel like reading while making some modest ISKies or don't really want to pay a lot of attention, mining even in a frigate can make money. Each load doesn't make a lot - it's the 100 loads of Veldspar that you sell for a cool million or two that you racked up while you were reading/studying/whatever. You can easily make a lot more from even low level missions since they are very fast to chew through.

* If you want to experiment, set your "main" character's skill queue on stand by and roll up a "ten hour hero". Play the tutorials for 10 hours to build a "gank bankroll", ultimately to get free ships! Take your free destroyer, kit it out with blasters/autocannon - but not lasers - and some faction ammo, say 5-10 rounds per turret, and fly about looking for trouble in 0.5 space. See if there's a botter - if there is, gank him, try to pod him and see what happens. You will get Concordokken'd - but it takes quite a while in 0.5 space for the cops to show up, so you can probably gank and pod a bot-miner with a second or three to spare. Wait 15 minutes or so for the crime timer to expire - while waiting, traipse your main out and snarf the wreckage.

* Disposalts are perfectly viable and encouraged. One that can drive an industrial ship fitted with a salvager and a tractor beam can pay handsome dividends for you over time. Keeping your 3rd slot cycling through "disposable me's" is a valid way to indulge in random acts of piracy or other experimental runs.

Goblin Squad Member

Marou_ wrote:


It's a paradox created by the harsh death system and economy of the game. You need to have better ships to have the economic capacity to afford losing ships. As such if you want to PvP it's reasonable to attempt to get to level 3-4 missions as rapidly as possible. You'll also want to spend some time on salvaging skills to maximize profit.

Then, X weeks later, you can PvP, and if you have a bad night you're not out of doing what you want to do (PvP) for days running low level...

So basically the core of the complaint is based on what is already confirmed to not be an issue in PFO. It has already been confirmed that equipped items won't be lost on death.

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