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I didn't know if I could handle that emotionally in long run, but I would not be sharing relationship I already had with someone else, I would be gaining what I wanted, so the circumstances were different. Of course it would not matter because the actual issue was that she wasn't attracted to me sexually.I understand this sentiment completely, where it fell through for me was having to deal with the situation on a daily basis. I didn't have the emotional stamina to handle it.
When I loved her, I wanted her to be with me and only with me, but there were moments when I was willing to be with her even if she would not break up with her then boyfriends feeling that I would rather be with her sharing her with someone else than not be with her at all.
To me, that last is what hurts most of all. I have never enjoyed being viewed as a semi-genderless thing with an aptitude for friendship, riding a bike, and lifting heavy objects.
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FHDM, that is a really awful way of saying that. Not being attracted to someone sexually does not necessarily equal being a jerkass who views people as things to be used, in this case for friendship and lifting heavy objects.
This is most likely getting to me more than it should because it's stepping too close to a real-life argument I've been dealing with lately.
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To me, that last is what hurts most of all.
Oooh, the pain of hurt male pride! We joked about this a few times. And about her preferred males. And about my preferences when it came to females. We managed to convince each other that the other one completely lacks the good taste when it comes to sexual desire.
We do managed to take a common stance that one of her friend from studies is gorgeous, however, despite K's having little interest in women.
FWIW, FHDM is someone I get along with well and would consider a friend even though I've never met him in person. Doesn't mean we agree on everything though. :)
I guess I just wanted to clarify that this is (at least on my side) a friendly disagreement.
FHDM, that is a really awful way of saying that. Not being attracted to someone sexually does not necessarily equal being a jerkass who views people as things to be used, in this case for friendship and lifting heavy objects.
This is most likely getting to me more than it should because it's stepping too close to a real-life argument I've been dealing with lately.
Yeah. I've felt the pain of unrequited love before (all too f&@&ing often, in facT), but the people I've felt that way about value me as a friend and I consider friendship as one of the most tremendously valuable things there are (after all, your friends stick with you long after the romance ends). I'd never consider the person who valued my friendship to be a horrible person for doing so. It hurts more than 1,000 burning needles under the skin to be rejected, to not have your feelings reciprocated, but "I'm not their type" does not equal "I am a horrible person with no identity worth valuing."
Now, I've been used too, and called a "good friend" when it just meant the person in question valued my willingness to drop everything to help them, and then put up with their unwillingness to do the same and general poor treatment of me because at the time I didn't have the self respect to recognize how unhealthy that was at the time. But eventually I figured it out. The people who used to do that to me -- well, I developed self respect. And I don't associate with those people any more.
There's a big matter of discerning whether someone truly values you--maybe even if it's not the way you want them to--and someone who just keeps you around because you're convenient.
So as I think of it, if you feel like you're worthless around someone--examine why. If it's coming from you--work on respecting yourself more. But if it's coming from the way the other person is treating you.... take care of yourself and get the heck away as best you can. Easier said than done of course. Best and sincere hopes to those with fragile and mending hearts.
FHDM, that is a really awful way of saying that. Not being attracted to someone sexually does not necessarily equal being a jerkass who views people as things to be used, in this case for friendship and lifting heavy objects.
This is most likely getting to me more than it should because it's stepping too close to a real-life argument I've been dealing with lately.
Oh wow! I'm sorry, I meant no offense whatsoever. I was speaking from personal experience -yes someone I was attracted to was trying to turn me down and ended up saying something offensive(and it certainly turned me off to her, which was her intention- girls can be just as ham fisted as boys sometimes) . Maybe I shouldn't have shared this one - I think it's more one of those "you had to be there" stories.
That said, your perspective interests me -what made you think of people who are not attracted to each other using each other?
I think what FHDM may be hitting on is a tendency among men to internalize rejection as a reflection of inadequacy. It is something to be aware of when dealing with the males of the species, fragile creatures that we are.
also, this to a certain extent.
As usual tmdq, you raise good points. I still think there is a weird gender difference here though. Feelings of male inadequacy tend to run deep and are so very rarely discussed and are so easily spurred by romantic failures.
FHDM, that is a really awful way of saying that. Not being attracted to someone sexually does not necessarily equal being a jerkass who views people as things to be used, in this case for friendship and lifting heavy objects.
This is most likely getting to me more than it should because it's stepping too close to a real-life argument I've been dealing with lately.
Yeah. I've felt the pain of unrequited love before (all too f!$@ing often, in facT), but the people I've felt that way about value me as a friend and I consider friendship as one of the most tremendously valuable things there are (after all, your friends stick with you long after the romance ends). I'd never consider the person who valued my friendship to be a horrible person for doing so. It hurts more than 1,000 burning needles under the skin to be rejected, to not have your feelings reciprocated, but "I'm not their type" does not equal "I am a horrible person with no identity worth valuing."
Now, I've been used too, and called a "good friend" when it just meant the person in question valued my willingness to drop everything to help them, and then put up with their unwillingness to do the same and general poor treatment of me because at the time I didn't have the self respect to recognize how unhealthy that was at the time. But eventually I figured it out. The people who used to do that to me -- well, I developed self respect. And I don't associate with those people any more.
There's a big matter of discerning whether someone truly values you--maybe even if it's not the way you want them to--and someone who just keeps you around because you're convenient.
So as I think of it, if you feel like you're worthless around someone--examine why. If it's coming from you--work on respecting yourself more. But if it's coming from the way the other person is treating you.... take care of yourself and get the heck away as best you can. Easier said than done of course. Best and sincere hopes to those with fragile and...
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FHDM, that is a really awful way of saying that. Not being attracted to someone sexually does not necessarily equal being a jerkass who views people as things to be used, in this case for friendship and lifting heavy objects.
This is most likely getting to me more than it should because it's stepping too close to a real-life argument I've been dealing with lately.
Oh wow! I'm sorry, I meant no offense whatsoever. I was speaking from personal experience -yes someone I was attracted to was trying to turn me down and ended up saying something offensive(and it certainly turned me off to her, which was her intention- girls can be just as ham fisted as boys sometimes) . Maybe I shouldn't have shared this one - I think it's more one of those "you had to be there" stories.
That said, your perspective interests me -what made you think of people who are not attracted to each other using each other?
I tried to answer this, but my first draft was too long and shared more than I probably should considering how public some of this stuff already was. The short answer, my marriage is definitely where that was coming from. We're still together because neither of us wants to give up custody of our son. After a lot of counseling, we've learned to communicate much better and it's not really awful. But at the same time, a relationship in which only one party has romantic feelings is difficult at best. I struggle with guilt over it, but I feel the way I feel and there's a lot of history behind why things are the way they are. But whenever he gets stressed out the insecurities start piling up and he starts insulting himself and if I don't argue with him enough about it in his mind I'm the one who said it. It is so frustrating.
I'm sorry lynora. I took really didn't mean to take things in that direction. The situation sounds like it is a very, very complicated, and I dealt with something similar with my very high school g/f.
I tried to answer this, but my first draft was too long and shared more than I probably should considering how public some of this stuff already was. The short answer, my marriage is definitely where that was coming from. We're still together because neither of us wants to give up custody of our son. After a lot of counseling, we've learned to communicate much better and it's not really awful. But at the same time, a relationship in which only one party has romantic feelings is difficult at best. I struggle with guilt over it, but I feel the way I feel and there's a lot of history behind why things are the way they are. But whenever he gets stressed out the insecurities start piling up and he starts insulting himself and if I don't argue with him enough about it in his mind I'm the one who said it. It is so frustrating.FHDM, that is a really awful way of saying that. Not being attracted to someone sexually does not necessarily equal being a jerkass who views people as things to be used, in this case for friendship and lifting heavy objects.
This is most likely getting to me more than it should because it's stepping too close to a real-life argument I've been dealing with lately.
Oh wow! I'm sorry, I meant no offense whatsoever. I was speaking from personal experience -yes someone I was attracted to was trying to turn me down and ended up saying something offensive(and it certainly turned me off to her, which was her intention- girls can be just as ham fisted as boys sometimes) . Maybe I shouldn't have shared this one - I think it's more one of those "you had to be there" stories.
That said, your perspective interests me -what made you think of people who are not attracted to each other using each other?
Complicated is a good word for it. It's hard to explain why I would stay with someone I don't love, but I don't hate him either. Romance is nice and all, but it isn't the end all be all of existence.
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As usual tmdq, you raise good points. I still think there is a weird gender difference here though. Feelings of male inadequacy tend to run deep and are so very rarely discussed and are so easily spurred by romantic failures.
You think women do not have feelings of inadequacy? You think women don't get broken hearts? Or, say, do incredibly stupid things to attract someone or to win someone back? (If you've never seen a woman do horrible, self-destroying things in the name of love, then you've never seen a woman, ever. You may know them, talk to them, but you've obviously never SEEN them for really real.) Maybe you're suggesting women have no pride to hurt?
No. I call rampant BS. There are lots of things where men and women on a general rule of brain chemistry operate differently but this is not a gender unique thing. Absolutely they may express their pain DIFFERENTLY, but that is a worlds-apart different thing from not feeling pain at all.
I am sorry you were treated poorly by someone, and I am sorry you took it so hard and had to suffer.
But you do not get to win the "My Heart Gets Broke Worse Than Yours" award just because you have a penis.
All I'm really trying to say is that men really suck at talking about their feelings most of the time. We seem to have a hard time expressing feelings, just like you mentioned earlier. It's weird, not superior/inferior. I've seen women emote and relate to one another in ways that are jaw droppingly amazing /effective. I've seen stupid things ad well, but not nearly as many. I'm sorry if I made it sound like I was trying to turn this into a competition - I really wasn't. That said I do think there are some gender differences here.
As usual tmdq, you raise good points. I still think there is a weird gender difference here though. Feelings of male inadequacy tend to run deep and are so very rarely discussed and are so easily spurred by romantic failures.You think women do not have feelings of inadequacy? You think women don't get broken hearts? Or, say, do incredibly stupid things to attract someone or to win someone back? (If you've never seen a woman do horrible, self-destroying things in the name of love, then you've never seen a woman, ever. You may know them, talk to them, but you've obviously never SEEN them for really real.) Maybe you're suggesting women have no pride to hurt?
No. I call rampant BS. There are lots of things where men and women on a general rule of brain chemistry operate differently but this is not a gender unique thing. Absolutely they may express their pain DIFFERENTLY, but that is a worlds-apart different thing from not feeling pain at all.
I am sorry you were treated poorly by someone, and I am sorry you took it so hard and had to suffer.
But you do not get to win the "My Heart Gets Broke Worse Than Yours" award just because you have a penis.
All I'm really trying to say is that men really suck at talking about their feelings most of the time. We seem to have a hard time expressing feelings, just like you mentioned earlier. It's weird, not superior/inferior. I've seen women emote and relate to one another in ways that are jaw droppingly amazing /effective. I've seen stupid things ad well, but not nearly as many. I'm sorry if I made it sound like I was trying to turn this into a competition - I really wasn't. That said I do think there are some gender differences here.
I sometimes only notice emotions retrospectively. I rarely note that I'm really into something when reading or watching or whatever. It's only when I realize I've spent a greater than usual amount of time thinking about the subject, reading, etc that it occurs I was really into it.
You think women do not have feelings of inadequacy? You think women don't get broken hearts? Or, say, do incredibly stupid things to attract someone or to win someone back?
Itches me to share a story or two. Nah, I should not...
No. I call rampant BS. There are lots of things where men and women on a general rule of brain chemistry operate differently but this is not a gender unique thing. Absolutely they may express their pain DIFFERENTLY, but that is a worlds-apart different thing from not feeling pain at all.
Sorry, DQ, but now you are overreacting a bit - I am not seeing from Freehold DM side any claims that women have no pride, nor that male broken heart is more painful than women. Statement "males *do* feel emotional pain" does not equate "males feel pain more than women".
Looking deeper, I have to ask where I insinuated that women lacked pride or had no feelings to hurt? I don't think those things at all. I was raised by women(mother, both grandmother's, and oh so many aunts on my father's side) and married a woman who grew up in an all female household and a 90+ % female peer family -I firmly believe that women are just as proud and feel hurt just ad deeply as men do, but they express it VERY differently. That said if you noticed a subtext that I didn't realize I was espousing, then I thank you for pointing it out. I don't know if I would call it all bs, but friends tell you what they think to your face, and I am grateful for it
As usual tmdq, you raise good points. I still think there is a weird gender difference here though. Feelings of male inadequacy tend to run deep and are so very rarely discussed and are so easily spurred by romantic failures.You think women do not have feelings of inadequacy? You think women don't get broken hearts? Or, say, do incredibly stupid things to attract someone or to win someone back? (If you've never seen a woman do horrible, self-destroying things in the name of love, then you've never seen a woman, ever. You may know them, talk to them, but you've obviously never SEEN them for romanteally real.) Maybe you're suggesting women have no pride to hurt?
No. I call rampant BS. There are lots of things where men and women on a general rule of brain chemistry operate differently but this is not a gender unique thing. Absolutely they may express their pain DIFFERENTLY, but that is a worlds-apart different thing from not feeling pain at all.
I am sorry you were treated poorly by someone, and I am sorry you took it so hard and had to suffer.
But you do not get to win the "My Heart Gets Broke Worse Than Yours" award just because you have a penis.
Re: women expressing hurt differently than men: This is where I end up feeling like I'm caught in between two gender stereotypes and stuck in this in-between zone. I would rather have a root canal than talk about my feelings. It's easier to manage it in online communication because of the anonymity, but this whole female emotional support thing mystifies the hell out of me. I've observed the phenomenon. It seems very cathartic. I have no intention of/abiity to join in.
Re: women expressing hurt differently than men: This is where I end up feeling like I'm caught in between two gender stereotypes and stuck in this in-between zone. I would rather have a root canal than talk about my feelings. It's easier to manage it in online communication because of the anonymity, but this whole female emotional support thing mystifies the hell out of me. I've observed the phenomenon. It seems very cathartic. I have no intention of/abiity to join in.
interesting. Which would you say is greater, the lack of desire or inability?
Re: women expressing hurt differently than men: This is where I end up feeling like I'm caught in between two gender stereotypes and stuck in this in-between zone. I would rather have a root canal than talk about my feelings. It's easier to manage it in online communication because of the anonymity, but this whole female emotional support thing mystifies the hell out of me. I've observed the phenomenon. It seems very cathartic. I have no intention of/abiity to join in.interesting. Which would you say is greater, the lack of desire or inability?
They are related. I just can't get over my pride enough to be that vulnerable.
I'm not supposed to talk about my feelings.
At the very least, that's the impression I got while I was growing up. I guess that stuck with me.
men tend to be rewarded for stoic behavior.
I've long thought it was because I was Japanese, actually.men tend to be rewarded for stoic behavior.I'm not supposed to talk about my feelings.
At the very least, that's the impression I got while I was growing up. I guess that stuck with me.
In that case, I think you get a x2 multiplier on stoicism rewards.
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men tend to be rewarded for stoic behavior.I'm not supposed to talk about my feelings.
At the very least, that's the impression I got while I was growing up. I guess that stuck with me.
Women who spend a lot of their formative years being bullied until they snap and show anger (or get upset and cry or whatever) and are then mocked for showing emotion tend to come out of it with a similar sort of stoicism.
Though when I write it up that way, I recognize that it probably describes the formative years of a lot of men, and that particular form of bullying/abuse is probably less common for women to go through, cultural norms being what they are.
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men tend to be rewarded for stoic behavior.I'm not supposed to talk about my feelings.
At the very least, that's the impression I got while I was growing up. I guess that stuck with me.
Women who spend a lot of their formative years being bullied until they snap and show anger (or get upset and cry or whatever) and are then mocked for showing emotion tend to come out of it with a similar sort of stoicism.
Though when I write it up that way, I recognize that it probably describes the formative years of a lot of men, and that particular form of bullying/abuse is probably less common for women to go through, cultural norms being what they are.
And as I have mentioned previously, that pretty well describes my childhood to a T. Showing emotion is a no-no when it gets used as a weapon against you.
And as I have mentioned previously, that pretty well describes my childhood to a T. Showing emotion is a no-no when it gets used as a weapon against you.men tend to be rewarded for stoic behavior.I'm not supposed to talk about my feelings.
At the very least, that's the impression I got while I was growing up. I guess that stuck with me.
Women who spend a lot of their formative years being bullied until they snap and show anger (or get upset and cry or whatever) and are then mocked for showing emotion tend to come out of it with a similar sort of stoicism.
Though when I write it up that way, I recognize that it probably describes the formative years of a lot of men, and that particular form of bullying/abuse is probably less common for women to go through, cultural norms being what they are.
For what it's worth, I'm right there with you on that, Lynora. It's still far easier for me to talk about feelings in written form than in face to face conversation, though I'm working on it.
For what it's worth, I'm right there with you on that, Lynora. It's still far easier for me to talk about feelings in written form than in face to face conversation, though I'm working on it.And as I have mentioned previously, that pretty well describes my childhood to a T. Showing emotion is a no-no when it gets used as a weapon against you.men tend to be rewarded for stoic behavior.I'm not supposed to talk about my feelings.
At the very least, that's the impression I got while I was growing up. I guess that stuck with me.
Women who spend a lot of their formative years being bullied until they snap and show anger (or get upset and cry or whatever) and are then mocked for showing emotion tend to come out of it with a similar sort of stoicism.
Though when I write it up that way, I recognize that it probably describes the formative years of a lot of men, and that particular form of bullying/abuse is probably less common for women to go through, cultural norms being what they are.
One of the best things my therapist ever told me was that it was okay to tell someone I didn't want to talk about my feelings and that I didn't have to feel guilty about it. Written communication really helps me with those times when I do want to share, but the freedom to not feel like a bad person when I don't want to was important for me.
Explaining your feeling is hard.
Lindisty, lynora (we need someone in here with another l name), would you say women are punished for stoic behavior?
Lindisty, lynora (we need someone in here with another l name), would you say women are punished for stoic behavior?
Well, there are certainly negative social consequences. It makes it much harder to relate to other women. Also, it can be very difficult in any relationship since, especially from a female, there tends to be this idea that not showing emotion means you don't have any.
As a general response to something a couple of you have mentioned; If you have a hard time expressing your feelings but find yourself in a situation where you really want to one of the tricks I learned from C was to find someone else’s words that accurately express how you feel and show them to who you need to communicate with. Songs in particular are useful for this if you know enough music to find the tune that matches how you feel.
One of the last times C and I where together recently I idly made a statement that was a sideways way of asking how she currently felt about me and how it all played out between us. She responded by playing me this song.
I see, that same good old mix of bitterness and longing. I understand, believe me.
Yes, this is definitely true. Music is a great way to express emotions. You can tell a lot about what's going on in my head if you listen to my current playlist. But it only works if you learn to understand that method of communication and a lot of people never bother. But at least with ipods it's less cumbersome. Boomboxes are heavy. :P
Yes, this is definitely true. Music is a great way to express emotions. You can tell a lot about what's going on in my head if you listen to my current playlist. But it only works if you learn to understand that method of communication and a lot of people never bother. But at least with ipods it's less cumbersome. Boomboxes are heavy. :P
Yeah, I guess you are right. Interpreting songs properly in this way is prolly just as hard as words. In C’s case the reason it is prolly so easy is that she only chooses songs where the lyrics are applicable as well as the emotion, so it’s not a “This is sorta how I feel.” It’s a “This is literally what I’m telling you my experience is.”
Yes, this is definitely true. Music is a great way to express emotions. You can tell a lot about what's going on in my head if you listen to my current playlist. But it only works if you learn to understand that method of communication and a lot of people never bother. But at least with ipods it's less cumbersome. Boomboxes are heavy. :P
I wouldn't say that people never bother to learn, just that it is incredibly difficult to do so. Just speaking to one another verbally can be hard enough, the timelessness and subtlety of music is going to go over most people's heads.
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Yes, this is definitely true. Music is a great way to express emotions. You can tell a lot about what's going on in my head if you listen to my current playlist. But it only works if you learn to understand that method of communication and a lot of people never bother. But at least with ipods it's less cumbersome. Boomboxes are heavy. :PI wouldn't say that people never bother to learn, just that it is incredibly difficult to do so. Just speaking to one another verbally can be hard enough, the timelessness and subtlety of music is going to go over most people's heads.
I find this interesting because to me music is more precise than language in terms of commuinicating emotion.
I find this interesting because to me music is more precise than language in terms of commuinicating emotion.Yes, this is definitely true. Music is a great way to express emotions. You can tell a lot about what's going on in my head if you listen to my current playlist. But it only works if you learn to understand that method of communication and a lot of people never bother. But at least with ipods it's less cumbersome. Boomboxes are heavy. :PI wouldn't say that people never bother to learn, just that it is incredibly difficult to do so. Just speaking to one another verbally can be hard enough, the timelessness and subtlety of music is going to go over most people's heads.
The approach I myself take nowadays is often a hybrid of words to explain what I mean and having a person listen to a song to sink home the feelings. The combo works pretty well at communicating where I’m at most of the time I think, but then again who knows? Even if you are relatively perceptive and articulate there is no guarantee someone is going to truly “get” where you are coming from. I routinely see people who have known each other for years have harmful misunderstandings. All you can really do is try your best and hope that those around you will be willing to work with you to reach a deeper level of understanding.
Words almost always fail me, when I'm trying to convey the emotional current running through me. Or the noneuclidian spaces that make up the geography inside my head.
Part of the problem is (excuse me for the conceit) that many, if not most, people are just horribly nonproficient with their own language. I'd blame teh Interwebs, but I noticed this lack when I was a child (rather pre-computer, at least as the common fixtures they are today; Atari 2600 anyone?) so I guess it can't be that.
But the majority of 'blame' for the dysfunction of language as a mode of communication must rest with the failure of language to emerge beyond the analogous. Words NEVER mean the same thing to different people. We are reduced to contextual interpretation with each other, navigating meaning by intuition rather than by means of concrete, denotational landmarks.
Emotion is an ephemeral, chimeric thing: unsuited to description.
If one has long practice with a particular person -- with whom you have a mutually-rigorous candor and honesty -- one can improve the chances of accurate and precise communication. But even then, it's never a sure thing.
>shrug<
And add to this, that we can never directly perceive the truth of our fellow travelers; we love, not who our lover really is, but Who We Think They Are. These are separate entities, and the dissonance between them can be hurtfully sharp, when they fail to live up to our expectations (based on our imagination more than fact).
The wonder is that we manage to get along with each other and exchange ideas at all.
[/gloomy ramble]
I find this interesting because to me music is more precise than language in terms of commuinicating emotion.
Actually I would dispute that. The emotional reaction to music are dramatically different in different people. Once my brother asked me to turn off that depressing music while I was listening to looped Sisters Of Mercy Cry Little Sisters. And I was in wonderful optimistic mood listening to it.
Part of the problem is (excuse me for the conceit) that many, if not most, people are just horribly nonproficient with their own language. I'd blame teh Interwebs, but I noticed this lack when I was a child (rather pre-computer, at least as the common fixtures they are today; Atari 2600 anyone?) so I guess it can't be that.
I'd play Miner 2049er... Maybe I would manage to finish it at last...
Atari 4 life!
Words almost always fail me, when I'm trying to convey the emotional current running through me. Or the noneuclidian spaces that make up the geography inside my head.
Part of the problem is (excuse me for the conceit) that many, if not most, people are just horribly nonproficient with their own language. I'd blame teh Interwebs, but I noticed this lack when I was a child (rather pre-computer, at least as the common fixtures they are today; Atari 2600 anyone?) so I guess it can't be that.
But the majority of 'blame' for the dysfunction of language as a mode of communication must rest with the failure of language to emerge beyond the analogous. Words NEVER mean the same thing to different people. We are reduced to contextual interpretation with each other, navigating meaning by intuition rather than by means of concrete, denotational landmarks.
Emotion is an ephemeral, chimeric thing: unsuited to description.
If one has long practice with a particular person -- with whom you have a mutually-rigorous candor and honesty -- one can improve the chances of accurate and precise communication. But even then, it's never a sure thing.
>shrug<
And add to this, that we can never directly perceive the truth of our fellow travelers; we love, not who our lover really is, but Who We Think They Are. These are separate entities, and the dissonance between them can be hurtfully sharp, when they fail to live up to our expectations (based on our imagination more than fact).
The wonder is that we manage to get along with each other and exchange ideas at all.
[/gloomy ramble]
I think what FHDM may be hitting on is a tendency among men to internalize rejection as a reflection of inadequacy. It is something to be aware of when dealing with the males of the species, fragile creatures that we are.
It's certainly true for me, despite how irrational I know it is. Anyhow...
My best friend of 14 years recently came out of the closet. I would say I was surprised, but for years I've been introducing him to people, after which the guys would ask me "Is he gay...?" and the girls would ask me "Is he single?" :/
Well now I have one answer to both questions.
I'm looking forward to meeting his boyfriend, partly so I can do my "What are your intentions toward my best friend, young man?" routine, despite the fact that the boyfriend has ten years on both of us. And partly because I have a vicarious interest in determining whether my friend is in love for the first time. :)
Oh and since we'll be living in the same city soon, I'll get introduced to more of my friend's gorgeous actress friends. Two of whom apparently game. Double win! Now if I could only get this foot out of my mouth...
But the majority of 'blame' for the dysfunction of language as a mode of communication must rest with the failure of language to emerge beyond the analogous. Words NEVER mean the same thing to different people. We are reduced to contextual interpretation with each other, navigating meaning by intuition rather than by means of concrete, denotational landmarks.
Emotion is an ephemeral, chimeric thing: unsuited to description.
If one has long practice with a particular person -- with whom you have a mutually-rigorous candor and honesty -- one can improve the chances of accurate and precise communication. But even then, it's never a sure thing.
>shrug<
And add to this, that we can never directly perceive the truth of our fellow travelers; we love, not who our lover really is, but Who We Think They Are. These are separate entities, and the dissonance between them can be hurtfully sharp, when they fail to live up to our expectations (based on our imagination more than fact).
The wonder is that we manage to get along with each other and exchange ideas at all.
[/gloomy ramble]
Yep, absolutely true.
About your expectations point the expectation problem that actually torpedoed some of my most intimate relationships is not that I think the person is one way and they disappoint me by proving me wrong but that I end up needing something from them that they just cannot give me.
Taking the lessons I’ve learned in recent years I’m actually thinking of working up a list of things I absolutely need from a love and presenting it to any person it seems like I might be heading into a longterm relationship with, just to be as up front and clear as possible. I will invite them to do the same.
Good idea; part of that 'mutually-rigorous candor and honesty' thing I mentioned.
Were you not disappointed when it became obvious they could not provide what you needed?
Clearing away the uncommunicated expectations can only help... part of the trouble with our idealized, imaginary lover is that we EXPECT certain behaviours from our real lover based on our imagination... which they (the real person) may or may not fulfill, or only fulfill sporadically.
If you're good at figuring out what you expect/need (I'm actually bad at this part, hating introspection as I do) AND are willing and able to TELL YOUR PROSPECTIVE PARTNER about it AND they're willing to listen (AND deal honestly, etc., ad infin.) you'll have a better time of things.
Imo, by the way, break it to them gently and make sure your invitation of reciprocity isn't ultimatum-esque... ;)
Anyhow.
Sad irony that I find it so much easier to discuss my failings in communication and bad thinking habits here, among strangers. Trite, sad irony, I admit, but true nonetheless.