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Exalted actually plays up this situation in their setting. The Dragon-blooded are a warrior culture with very little tolerance for any form of perceived weakness, so any man acting in an effeminate manner will be sharply ostracized. This does not in any way carry over into a discrimination against homosexuality, and such relations are rather common.
Depends on what you mean by 'effeminate'. The Dragon Blooded are actually slightly matriarchal with a 'glass ceiling' for men. So it's actually both men and women who behave in a way seen as weak that are ostracized. And you're expected to marry and have children, of course.
They don't give a damn who you sleep with, though. Indeed, most of Exalted has a real lack of concern about that in-world. It creates an interesting world, and one very appropriate to it's source material (both ancient myths and anime).
@DMW
Active scavengers more than hunters, until the technology got started.
Mostly by intimidating predators off their kills via numbers. :)
I think that's why a lot of people don't like hyenas, they have basically the same ecological niche we do. They're the competition.
Let's just say that if our ancestors got the chance, they probably killed and ate just about anything that moved, excepting their own tribe, and ate it if stuff no longer moved.
Well, there are real health reasons for our cultural cannibalism taboos, so I suspect that wasn't ever a really typical act on any large scale. Other than that, yeah, pretty much.
Dammit, now I'm jonsing for an Exalted game! Quit it, you guys! There's nobody here (DeLand, FL) interested in playing (let alone running) Exalted.
Sigh.
I get my Cthulhu. I get my DC Heroes.
But no Exalted.
Looks like that player I mentioned earlier is no longer interested in playing with us. The GM sent out a brief message about the game containing gay/bi characters when he sent out invitations to our table group via facebook (we hadn't even emailed him specifically about things yet); the player clicked "decline" on his game invite without another word and hasn't responded to any facebook messages or emails in a while despite being active online. Unless he was upset by seeing my posts here I can't think of another way we've offended him. I'd like to say no hard feelings over the matter but I find quite rude that he won't even speak a word to any of us via email. I'd call, but I don't think it would help matters and I'm not going far out of my way to get someone who believes I'm inherently inferior to play with us.I think that's still about the second best outcome. Sure in a perfect world he comes around and embraces the rainbow that little pink bunnies produce by touching themselves while unicorns frolic and it rains hot, willing guys from the sky but here we still have minimal drama and the only person losing is the guy who chose to lose.
...
Where...is this rainbow? I would love to interview these sky-men.
I am sorry if people see my post as trying to derail anything. I was a bit uncertain when I posted it, as it was not my intention.
I should perhaps explain why this is.
I am a very biologically-minded person. I see the entire tapestry of human functioning on all levels as more or less entirely shaped by biological factors. There are cultural factors, of course, but these express themselves in accordance with our biology, not against it. Most of the things we call civilization, then, are expressions of our being pack animals. As much as some try to claim it, we are neither the lone hunter, red in tooth and claw and without regard for anything but our own gratification, nor drones that subsume their entirety into the collective - and we never have been.
From this view of humans comes the immediate consequence that since people can't change their own biology, any social mechanisms for non-personal censure such as witch hunts and claiming that some people are of lesser worth, these are all Wrong. I know this is not what people first think of when they consider biology, most seem to think about how a cure for this and that might be achieved. I see it rather as biological diversity being a strength and something beautiful.
I am still curious about how it works. =)
I think there is a very, very strong biological component. I believe there is some claptrap that a gene has been discovered, which brings up fears of genetic tampering on the part of homophobic parents to be who do not want a gay child paying tens of thousands of dollars to remove the gene.
I'm a gay guy who began D&D gaming about 6 years ago and I'm happy to report that I haven't suffered any kind of discrimination at the gaming table on account of my sexuality (though I have on account of my rules lawyering). The guys that I play with are all straight (as are the few gamer girls in our circle) and as far as I know, no one has indicated that they have any objections to my brophilia.
Brophilia??!!? I LOVE that term!!!!
Exalted actually plays up this situation in their setting. The Dragon-blooded are a warrior culture with very little tolerance for any form of perceived weakness, so any man acting in an effeminate manner will be sharply ostracized. This does not in any way carry over into a discrimination against homosexuality, and such relations are rather common.
I saw elements of this in Exalted, but didn't women rule the dragon-blooded?
I'm a gay guy who began D&D gaming about 6 years ago and I'm happy to report that I haven't suffered any kind of discrimination at the gaming table on account of my sexuality (though I have on account of my rules lawyering). The guys that I play with are all straight (as are the few gamer girls in our circle) and as far as I know, no one has indicated that they have any objections to my brophilia.
That being said, I know that there were issues with another gay dude that they had gamed with previously. The guy in question was apparently pretty gosh-darn effeminate (which at times annoys even me), he had no qualms about physically expressing his affection (interest?) for the other players (all of whom are straight), and he often made in-game overtures on the other members of the party with his female PCs. Apparently, games with him were routinely uncomfortable, both in and out of character.
Apart from the boundary issues exhibited by the last guy, what I've gathered is that my perceived masculinity actually sets my heterosexual friends at ease. This makes me wonder then if male homophobia is more strongly correlated to effeminacy than it is to sexual orientation. They've often said that they wouldn't have guessed I was gay if I hadn't told them. So, to me it seems that as long as I'm masculine and I'm not trying to bone anybody else at the table, then I'm just another one of the guys (plus, it doesn't hurt that I can optimize the sh** out of anything). Has anybody else made similar or contrary observations?
Maybe I'm missing something, but it sounds to me like what was obnoxious about him was that he kept hitting on people (even if it was IC) and generally being invasive, not that he was effeminate. Which is an obnoxious trait in anyone, and any gamer in particular because it can really make a session uncomfortable and distracting for the whole group. I've certainly encountered male gamers (and the occasional female) who made inappropriate comments to me (IC or OOC) and didn't understand "no thank you" until I walked away from the game table, and I've seen men and women alike do that to others as well.
I've also seen a few gamers who are a bit fabulous! in their mannerisms but certainly knew how to be respectful and non-invasive, and were welcome at the table just like anyone else.
The dragon-blooded are a dynasty of long-lived people who exist in a structure where every ounce of real power is held by the scarlet empress. She has been in that position since she founded the empire a thousand or so years ago, and over time she has grown pretty much synonymous with their empire. Below her are the nobility, composed of eleven houses, but at this level, opportunity is more or less equal. Women are not discriminated against even in the military.
Sure in a perfect world he comes around and embraces the rainbow that little pink bunnies produce by touching themselves while unicorns frolic and it rains hot, willing guys from the sky
Hee hee!
I am sorry if people see my post as trying to derail anything. I was a bit uncertain when I posted it, as it was not my intention.
I should perhaps explain why this is.
I am a very biologically-minded person. I see the entire tapestry of human functioning on all levels as more or less entirely shaped by biological factors. There are cultural factors, of course, but these express themselves in accordance with our biology, not against it. Most of the things we call civilization, then, are expressions of our being pack animals. As much as some try to claim it, we are neither the lone hunter, red in tooth and claw and without regard for anything but our own gratification, nor drones that subsume their entirety into the collective - and we never have been.
From this view of humans comes the immediate consequence that since people can't change their own biology, any social mechanisms for non-personal censure such as witch hunts and claiming that some people are of lesser worth, these are all Wrong. I know this is not what people first think of when they consider biology, most seem to think about how a cure for this and that might be achieved. I see it rather as biological diversity being a strength and something beautiful.
I am still curious about how it works. =)
Have you read The Once and Future King and, in particular, The Book of Merlyn by T.H. White? If not, I highly recommend. On top of all the D&D, King Arthur stuff, White makes, on 50s science, an amusing attempt at viewing mankind "biologically."
Also, from what little I picked up about him in an introductory essay, he was into boys, so, like, double relevancy, ding ding!!
Let's just say that if our ancestors got the chance, they probably killed and ate just about anything that moved, excepting their own tribe, and ate it if stuff no longer moved.
You pinkskins disgust me.
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Looks like that player I mentioned earlier is no longer interested in playing with us. The GM sent out a brief message about the game containing gay/bi characters when he sent out invitations to our table group via facebook (we hadn't even emailed him specifically about things yet); the player clicked "decline" on his game invite without another word and hasn't responded to any facebook messages or emails in a while despite being active online. Unless he was upset by seeing my posts here I can't think of another way we've offended him. I'd like to say no hard feelings over the matter but I find quite rude that he won't even speak a word to any of us via email. I'd call, but I don't think it would help matters and I'm not going far out of my way to get someone who believes I'm inherently inferior to play with us.
A shame but honestly it very likely is for the best in the long run. Some times no matter what, some people just don't fit in some groups and trying to make them fit rarely works. Now it leaves open another spot for someone else that will enjoy the game. :)
2 spots actually; we try to keep 6 in the group and another player had to drop because of a scheduling conflict (we try to play every other Saturday, his Saturdays are no longer free), so we only have 4. Sad day.
Time to scour the game shops and recruit some locals. I'll be sure to wear like a bazillion rainbows so everyone knows what they are getting into.
Sure in a perfect world he comes around and embraces the rainbow that little pink bunnies produce by touching themselves while unicorns frolic and it rains hot, willing guys from the sky...
That made my non-gay roommate nearly shoot cereal out his nose with laughter while eating his breakfast this morning. Good show, sir, love it.
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Sure in a perfect world he comes around and embraces the rainbow that little pink bunnies produce by touching themselves while unicorns frolic and it rains hot, willing guys from the sky...That made my non-gay roommate nearly shoot cereal out his nose with laughter while eating his breakfast this morning. Good show, sir, love it.
I didn't think that masturbating bunnies and horny paratroopers would be so amusing. I shall remember this fact for future use. :)
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I'm a gay guy who began D&D gaming about 6 years ago and I'm happy to report that I haven't suffered any kind of discrimination at the gaming table on account of my sexuality (though I have on account of my rules lawyering). The guys that I play with are all straight (as are the few gamer girls in our circle) and as far as I know, no one has indicated that they have any objections to my brophilia.Brophilia??!!? I LOVE that term!!!!
If half the straight guys in the world tried to step outside themselves and look at their enthusiastic, affectionate behavior towards their close friends we'd have amendments guaranteeing gay marriage in all 50 states and everyone would be happier for the increased honesty and much-diminished need to police one's behavior against the appearance of gayness.
I didn't think that masturbating bunnies and horny paratroopers would be so amusing. I shall remember this fact for future use. :)
Sure in a perfect world he comes around and embraces the rainbow that little pink bunnies produce by touching themselves while unicorns frolic and it rains hot, willing guys from the sky...That made my non-gay roommate nearly shoot cereal out his nose with laughter while eating his breakfast this morning. Good show, sir, love it.
HA!
I suppose I'll be the first to mention Stephen Fry in this thread.
I just learned of this Proud2Be (Sorry, that's how they spell it.) business off his Twitter. The similarities to the It Gets Better stuff are obvious, but the contrast is interesting too. Both seem like perfectly worthy causes with nice positive messages, which I think overlap but are not quite the same. I'm not quite sure what to make of the difference, or what ought to be made of it. Hm.
If half the straight guys in the world tried to step outside themselves and look at their enthusiastic, affectionate behavior towards their close friends we'd have amendments guaranteeing gay marriage in all 50 states and everyone would be happier for the increased honesty and much-diminished need to police one's behavior against the appearance of gayness.
Friend (jokingly): Those who don't watch soccer are gay!
Me: You say that *not* watching 22 young, muscular, sweaty males in shorts is gay?Friend: (starts to laugh)
If half the straight guys in the world tried to step outside themselves and look at their enthusiastic, affectionate behavior towards their close friends we'd have amendments guaranteeing gay marriage in all 50 states and everyone would be happier for the increased honesty and much-diminished need to police one's behavior against the appearance of gayness.
I agree completely. Many of my straight friends are often more physically affectionate with each other in public than they are with their girlfriends. It's an odd conundrum, but I suppose that their security in their own sexuality permits that kind of ... horseplay. In fact, I daresay that many of my straight friends ostensibly "act gayer" than I do.
Unfortunately, I almost immediately regret every sentence I've put down since commenting on this thread, since I can't seem to escape the pitfalls of using some loaded, potentially (though not intentionally) pejorative language.
@DeathQuaker: I'm inclined to agree with you. Boundary issues were more likely the cause of their discomfort than the guy's demeanor. That being said, however, it'd be a pity if that was some of my friends' only exposure to flamboyant men (which it may have been) because they might now be inclined to make assumptions about his sexual preference and could act apprehensively because of the perceived potential for him to invade their personal space. And that kind of misunderstanding would suck. :(
I was in Missoula just this past weekend for the race. I live at one of the nearby Job Corps centers (Trapper Creek).Missoula, MT.
Most liberal city in Montana...it's a little weird.
Really? Cool, always nice to hear about gamers in the area.
If my Pathfinder game wasn't currently a 'This happens when it happens.' (which doesn't so much work for out-of-town people), and my other game weren't pretty full, I'd invite you to join us.
From previous posts it sounds like you're pretty cool, and at least some of the gaming groups you've been playing with have been kinda crappy.
PM me if you don't mind traveling a ways to game, and maybe something could be worked out, in the future if not now.
Sorry, but I can't leave my Job Corps center except for official trips.
And you went and guessed my context. :)*raises hand as another guy with Aspergers*
I'm another.
Only a bit odd.
I've played female characters before. One(slightly crazy druid) was astonishingly oversexed, but that's about it in terms of personality quirks. They slew and stole and interacted like my various male characters.
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I've played a few female characters, and a lot of characters of different sexuality than my own...but that's certainly not why I got into roleplaying. On the other hand, I can certainly see how that might be a form of wish fullfilment for some, and that (wish fullfilment) is one of the main reasons I got into roleplaying, so it's not that weird per se. Many people game to be what they aren't in real life.
Speaking of playing characters of different sexualities, it's probably a bit odd that several of my most fun characters have been of very different sexualties than mine (gay or bisexual characters, since I'm straight). I wonder what that says about me? I'm pretty content in my sexual orientation, so that's probably not it...
Percieving the other sex as bisexual or homosexual is typically pretty easy for most people...
It's been a while since the last post.
So, is it odd that I kinda first got into "roleplaying" so that I can pretend to be the opposite sex for a bit?
I don't think that's odd. I know I've used roleplaying as a way to work through my feelings about different stuff over the years (it's cheaper than therapy) so I can see how that can be a really useful tool to explore something like that. I don't know if a lot of people do that, but I can see why someone would.
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Percieving the other sex as bisexual or homosexual is typically pretty easy for most people...
Oh, certainly. The characters I was referring to enjoying were mostly the same gender as me, though. :)
I was thinking that roleplaying may be popular for trangendered people, particularly those who can't/won't/don't/aren't transition(ing), as it allows them to "be", in a sense, their preferred gender.
It seems to me that a lot of people roleplay to be people they can't be, or do things they can't do. Overthrowing evil regimes, conquering cities, being impossibly strong or irresistably charming, etc.
What you describe is just another version of the same thing, so yeah, I'd expect it's not uncommon at all. At least, among transgender people who happen to wind up trying RPGs at some point.
I was thinking that roleplaying may be popular for trangendered people, particularly those who can't/won't/don't/aren't transition(ing), as it allows them to "be", in a sense, their preferred gender.
I only have a single data point for this, however, so it's just speculation.
I think this theory makes sense. It's certainly the case in my situation.
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Percieving the other sex as bisexual or homosexual is typically pretty easy for most people...Are you saying they're not?!
But...but...slumber parties? Makeover sessions? Why else would women have them?
The XXX Channels! THEY LIED TO ME!!!
Ever wanted to know why women go to the bathroom in groups? The truth is out there?
A friend of mine sent me this and it is amusing, he said this is what he has always pictured. More or less work safe.
More or less work safe.
I don't know if it's safe, but it sure is hawt!!
I mean, you know, for those so inclined.
Percieving the other sex as bisexual or homosexual is typically pretty easy for most people...Are you saying they're not?!
But...but...slumber parties? Makeover sessions? Why else would women have them?
The XXX Channels! THEY LIED TO ME!!!
my wife still laughs at me for believing that stuff. I was so disheartened to discover girls did not compare breast sizes and model underwear for each other.
my wife still laughs at me for believing that stuff. I was so disheartened to discover girls did not compare breast sizes and model underwear for each other.Percieving the other sex as bisexual or homosexual is typically pretty easy for most people...Are you saying they're not?!
But...but...slumber parties? Makeover sessions? Why else would women have them?
The XXX Channels! THEY LIED TO ME!!!
They don't?
<scratches out a couple of lines on bucket list>
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So, I just found out one of best friends is back from National Guard training, and it feels like nothing can ruin this day! So I'm sharing!
It was the first night he'd come over to stay the night at my house, and we got hungry and headed to Rally's. On the way, he told me he was bi. I was surprised, I hadn't thought he was anything but straight! On the way back, I told him I was bi too(I didn't know about pansexuality back then) and we hung out in the living room for a while.
When everyone else was asleep I got the courage to ask him if he wanted to fool around. He said yes and we went to my room. For the next hour or so we did... nothing but sit at different ends of the bed and talk. I told him several times he should be able to hear my heart trying to beat it's way out of my chest, and we laughed. It wasn't until I poked him in the knee with my finger and started a game I know call "Your turn" that we started having fun.
That was a fun night and we stayed awake for all of it. If we hadn't heard my little sister open her door across the hall, we probably wouldn't have stopped for another hour or two.
Huzzah! For glory!
So, I just found out one of best friends is back from National Guard training, and it feels like nothing can ruin this day! So I'm sharing!
It was the first night he'd come over to stay the night at my house, and we got hungry and headed to Rally's. On the way, he told me he was bi. I was surprised, I hadn't thought he was anything but straight! On the way back, I told him I was bi too(I didn't know about pansexuality back then) and we hung out in the living room for a while.
When everyone else was asleep I got the courage to ask him if he wanted to fool around. He said yes and we went to my room. For the next hour or so we did... nothing but sit at different ends of the bed and talk. I told him several times he should be able to hear my heart trying to beat it's way out of my chest, and we laughed. It wasn't until I poked him in the knee with my finger and started a game I know call "Your turn" that we started having fun.
That was a fun night and we stayed awake for all of it. If we hadn't heard my little sister open her door across the hall, we probably wouldn't have stopped for another hour or two.
I know. Sad., isn't it?
my wife still laughs at me for believing that stuff. I was so disheartened to discover girls did not compare breast sizes and model underwear for each other.Percieving the other sex as bisexual or homosexual is typically pretty easy for most people...Are you saying they're not?!
But...but...slumber parties? Makeover sessions? Why else would women have them?
The XXX Channels! THEY LIED TO ME!!!
They don't?
<scratches out a couple of lines on bucket list>
i
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I thought it was a convenient time to discuss plans for world domination... Those things take time, you know... Ooops, shouldn't have leaked that...
I thought it was a convenient time to discuss plans for world domination... Those things take time, you know... Ooops, shouldn't have leaked that...
You're too late. It leaked in '97. Probably NSFW...but then we all already knew what it said since the conspiracy is us.
Maybe.
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Here (New Zealand...but really I'm from Canada), queer, get used to it XP
The story of my first coming out goes something like this. A friend and I were playing video games, Halo 2 specifically, like seven years back now. I'd been debating telling him about my gayness for some time and I'd more or less resolved myself to doing it that day. So, he comes over to my place after school and we start killing each other. Finally -- while still playing the game, mind you -- I say something like "Hey, I got something to tell you...[long pause]...I'm gay." This was immediately followed by a momentary pause on his end, leaving me looking down the barrel of a rocket launcher. Taking advantage of the hesitation, I pistoled him in the face.
For the longest time, he thought I only said I was gay because I was loosing and needed the momentary pause to help make up the scoring difference. And then, a couple years ago, we were at a gay club together and I had brought one of my partners with me. My friend says, "You know what? I've never seen to guys make out before." So my partner and I made out pretty hardcore directly in front of him. He goes "OMG! Its EXACTLY like straight people do it!"
I like my breeder friend. His naivity is very fun to exploit for comic purposes ^^
I'd rather just raise the incidence of queerness to have a better dating pool, thanx.
:)
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lynora,
<3.
I'm wary with everyone. I'm shy. That's really all there is to it. :)I'm wary with everyone. However, I'm an extrovert. ;)
I am reasonably certain I am not the only socially awkward person on these boards either.You certainly sound like a reasonable person to me.
-- Andy
Print is kind to me. I don't stutter when I type. ;)