Our CotCT campaign is coming to its end, and I have to decide which AP we are going to play next. At the moment I am still undecided between
# Jade Regent,
# Kingmaker, and a heavily rewritten
# Road to Revolution (based in Korvosa after the events in CotCT).
My players like strong, interesting NPCs and decent possibilities to roleplay - therefore I tend to Jade Regent. But I don't know if the whole traveling aspect is right for us, and maybe we get what we want from Kingmaker as well. So your opinions are welcome: Why Kingmaker - or why not?
Thanks, Exeter
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Kingmaker is an interesting Adventure Path in that there is a lot of scope for actually making your own content due to it being . I borrowed heavily from the 6 player conversion, but also for example am doing a heavy rewrite of the third book because of there being a large scope for putting a personal twist to the whole story.
The Adventure Path is really what you make of it. The harder you work to make content, the happier and more engaged your party will be
I love Kingmaker and so does my group. It is the only path I've ever run plus there are so many great ideas on here if your willing to look for em.
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Exeter,
For GMs like me who tend to run sandbox anyway, it is amazing. For groups, especially long time players, this AP is a dream come true, with rules for running your own kingdom.
In my opinion, Kingmaker works best if they players drive the campaign. If your group does not do well with taking initiative and waits to be directed to the next part of the adventure, the AP doesn't seem to be as well received. I also believe that to succeed really well, the GM needs to add his own storylines that mesh well with the party. GMs should do this for any AP really, but since this one works best player driven and is sandboxy by nature, there seems to be the need for a good amount of GM creativity.
Fortunately there is a ton of mods and extra material to be found in the Kingmaker forum here so that does cut down on some of the extra work.
Alternatively, you might find running the Jade Regent sets you up nicely for your group to finish off the Varisian Quartet of APs with the Shattered Star AP coming out after Skull and Shackles. It appears to assume a timeline that starts AFTER Runelords and Crimson Throne.
I'm playing in a Jade Regent group right now, and it's a lot of fun. There are lots of potential roleplaying opportunities and tons of interesting NPCs. The entire AP jumps around from place to place as you journey to where you're going (we're only in book 2 right now so I can't say much beyond that).
I'm prepping to run Kingmaker after we are done JR (yes I know it may be a while, Kingmaker just looks so awesome :( ).. It requires a lot of effort on YOUR part to make Kingmaker amazing. There are lots lots lots of opportunities for you to expand the AP and add things in. If your players are the type to take initiative and get an adventure started, I would suggest KM. If they are the type that wants to simply "go here, do this" then pick something else as they will get quite tired of asking you "okay what next" and you replying "I dont know, what IS next? Do something".
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Kingmaker IS awesome.
The reason is everything that has been stated above. There are alot of roleplaying situations and a vast field to make the path whatever you want it to be. With that being said here are the cons.
- Exploration - I'm not talking about simply going out and findinging things...well. I guess I am. The aspect I am centering in on is the need to fully explore a hex. This can slow the game down if the hex has nothing and the PCs are hopping from one hex to another. I have heard this part referred to as the "board gaming" aspect. Your PCs will become bored if nothing happens for a while and no random encounters occur. Keep in mind that this is needed for later on (kingdom building).
- Accounting - This part is figuring out and using the kingdom building rules. There is alot of accounting that goes with this. You will either want to use one of the Excel lists floating around on the Kingmaker forum, or keep a detailed account of everything that occurs month to month. Some PCs might also not enjoy the kingdom making part where others do.
- Wandering Monsters - If not done properly it can wipe a party. Yes I am looking at you 1d6 trolls and Mr. Shambling Mound. However the Stolen Lands are a dangerous place. My advice...dont put on the kid gloves.
Now for the good stuff (Pros)
- You get your own freakin KINGDOM!!! - Who doesn't want that? The PCs get to choose their own laws, the type of government, and how their Kingdom develops. Sa-weet!
- Political Intrigue - You as the DM can decide how much you would like to put in. You can make it very heavy, due to the forthcoming civil war getting ready to occur in Bevroy, or ignore most of it and let it do its own thing. It's kinda like adding seasoning to a pot of spag. sauce.
- Villains you love to Hate - This depends on how you develop the villains. However the big bad in Mod 1 is a bandit king... The Stag Lord. He is an imposing figure and can be made to be a real pain in the arse for the PCs. Book Two there isn't a true Big Bad, but the closest there is to one is Hargulka the Troll King. He is trying to set up his own kingdom in the area, and as such can also harass the PCs. Both of these are just for starts. It is easy enough to create and add in your own reoccurring villain to get the PCs blood boiling.
- Sub-Plots galore - The PCs will actually be making up the sub-plots for you. There is alot of possible speculation possibilities in the game. The PCs will second guess themselves, and at that time it is great to run with it. I had a group thinking that there was a wizard experimenting on trolls in order to improve on them and do his bidding. There is no wizard as such in the books, so I made one up. The group hated him as he was always one step ahead of them, and never met up with him, just his toys.
- Pushes the Party down a path, but doesn't - What is meant by this is the PCS will get a general notion of what to do, but they can decide when and how to go about it. The path in gametime should take at a minimum 4-5 years to fully develop. This allows the PCs to grow and discover things that they normally wouldn't couldn't do. They get to research and create new spells/items. Or simply just take a break of always feeling like they are being rushes in order to beat a timer.
Regardless of how I feel about Kingmaker it is my players who I look toward to see if they are enjoying it. Might first group couldnt get enough. With the second group (I moved to a different city) I currently have a waiting list if any people drop out. Learned from the mistakes from the first group and improved on it. There are not alot of modules out there where the players talk about the story to others, and those others want to play as well. I place this path up there with the Dragonlance Series as well as the Witchfire Trilogy. It is simply one that your players will remember.
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Kingmaker IS awesome.
The reason is everything that has been stated above. There are alot of roleplaying situations and a vast field to make the path whatever you want it to be. With that being said here are the cons.
- Exploration - I'm not talking about simply going out and findinging things...well. I guess I am. The aspect I am centering in on is the need to fully explore a hex. This can slow the game down if the hex has nothing and the PCs are hopping from one hex to another. I have heard this part referred to as the "board gaming" aspect. Your PCs will become bored if nothing happens for a while and no random encounters occur. Keep in mind that this is needed for later on (kingdom building).
- Accounting - This part is figuring out and using the kingdom building rules. There is alot of accounting that goes with this. You will either want to use one of the Excel lists floating around on the Kingmaker forum, or keep a detailed account of everything that occurs month to month. Some PCs might also not enjoy the kingdom making part where others do.
- Wandering Monsters - If not done properly it can wipe a party. Yes I am looking at you 1d6 trolls and Mr. Shambling Mound. However the Stolen Lands are a dangerous place. My advice...dont put on the kid gloves.
Now for the good stuff (Pros)
...
- You get your own freakin KINGDOM!!! - Who doesn't want that? The PCs get to choose their own laws, the type of government, and how their Kingdom develops. Sa-weet!
- Political Intrigue - You as the DM can decide how much you would like to put in. You can make it very heavy, due to the forthcoming civil war getting ready to occur in Bevroy, or ignore most of it and let it do its own thing. It's kinda like adding seasoning to a pot of spag. sauce.
- Villains you love to Hate - This depends on how you develop the villains. However the big bad in Mod 1 is a bandit king... The Stag Lord. He is an imposing figure and can be made to be a real pain in the arse
Well said Dusk. As long as you the gm puts in your due diligence in preparation your group will love it. Only you know your group so tailor it to fit their style of play and make it memorable.
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I really like the mass army combat and tying your PCs to a kingdom, giving them responsibilities, and anchoring them in the world. It gives them access to a separate story where their actions influence entire nations instead of just a few town folk.
I recommended starting slowly with kingdom building and not to rush it. eventually the rolls become routine and a lot of the ambiguity gets removed thanks to familiarity.
The advancement of time and checks can become really tedious and painful if too much is taken on at once, so its best parsed out over multiple gaming sessions.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts, that's really helping. I never thought of KM as an heavy roleplaying AP and had the impression there would be no strong NPCs, but looks like I was mistaken
Of course, but there are NPCs and then there are NPCs, if you know what I mean. ;) There is a difference between a kind of generic NPC like Eats What He Kills and a heartbreaking insane sidekick/antagonist like Laori Vaus.
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Alexander is exactly right. It really helps if you are a "read and react" type of GM as well rather than a "plan everything out in advance". Since its a really big sandbox no set timeline (mostly), there is all sorts of opportunity for going off the beaten path.
For instance, I have a table of night sounds that I roll on every night as well as a wandering monster table when my party is in the wilderness. One of the sounds is the sound of a pursuit. Several more rolls got me who the hunter and who the prey was, and the party took the bait and went after them. It turned out to be a female elven prisoner being chased by bandits. When they rescued her and questioned her about how she came to be there, on the fly adventuring started. Now there is a destroyed elven village in the forest where there wasnt before. Later on, when the party went in the woods, the wandering monster table generated an angry woodsman off of a NPC list. I decided to dovetail this in with their earlier encounter, and now we have a vengeful elven ranger who hates humans for what they did to his village. Thus was the Harbinger of Human Tears born, an NPC that kept my party out of the forest until 6th level, when they managed to come to a sort of detente with him.
Another example is the party was attacked by some ghouls in the night. When they went to track them, the inquisitor rolled a natural 20, so now I had to figure out where they came from. I rolled on a table of small settlements I created as part of my random encounter tables, and thus was born the village of Green Meadows, a small colony of Sarenrae pilgrims making a holy retreat in the wilds (the oracle of Life favors Sarenrae). When the party explored, they found several other items that will continue this story thread into the future.
This is the sort of thing that really develops this AP, and if you read the forums here, you will see all sorts of similarities where GMs have ad-libbed and expanded their stories greatly, sometimes in ways not ever expected or intended.
Exactly. Kingmaker really rewards a GM who is ready to ad-lib and expand, and it rewards players who take the initiative in doing stuff.
Just don't allow them to branch out of the Stolen Lands unless you're willing to deal with unforseeable consequences.
Okay thanks again, guys! Kingmaker is now much more attractive than before, and has replaced "Jade Regent" as favorite. I'll see how my group will think about it.