I know that there are a lot of things in D&D/Pathfinder that simply don't bear logical weight. A society with prevalent magic would look NOTHING like the society of any fantasy world I've ever seen, because magic of the power, reliability, and utility of the magic presented in the rules and the settings would warp every level of society beyond all recognition. Relatively simple spells like Purify Food and Drink, Cure Disease, and Plant Growth alone would create a massive population boom if applied logically, as just one example. In other words, ya can't look too closely or the whole thing falls apart.
However, assuming the basic nature of humanity (and certainly dwarves and halflings, among other races) isn't wholly altered by magic, there's one basic law of existence that can't be broken without shattering disbelief: the law of supply and demand. Or, to put it simply, things aren't worth what some notional schedule of prices say they're worth, they're worth what people are willing to pay.
Consider, for our purposes, the diamond. Or, more explicitly, consider the 5,000 GP diamond. Now, by everything we know about human nature, a 5,000 GP diamond is not worth just one more GP than a 4,999 GP diamond, for the simple reason that a 4,999 GP diamond is a shiny rock, while a 5,000 GP diamond is a key to bringing dead people back to life. Diamond miners (or, more likely, the owners of diamond mines) know this perfectly well (unless somehow this information vital to their business interests is kept from them), and no doubt they have keen appraisers scanning every rock that comes out of their mines for diamonds that might meet the standards of size and clarity and color, or whatever else, that separates a 5,000 GP diamond from the lesser sorts, and so presumably he adds some amount for the raw diamond when he sells it to a jeweler for cutting.
Similarly, a jeweler applying his expertise to cutting the diamond would understand that he can get much, much more from the middle men who transport the diamonds to market for a 5,000 GP diamond than one worth just one gold less, and so he would need to be made of virtuous stuff indeed if he didn't pass along his additional costs plus a little something for himself when he sells them.
Likewise, the merchants transporting such gems to market incur extra risks by doing so, because every thief would know that the merchant might be carrying a vital component to a genuinely life-saving spell, and therefore extra security is required that simply isn't needed when carrying a bunch of garnets or tourmalines; who's going to pay for those costs if not his customers?
So, at every stage of the way, costs get added to a diamond that's notionally worth 5,000 GP that simply don't get added to one worth 4,999 GP. The question is, how much do those costs come up to when a PC goes into a gem shop in Campaign City and asks for a diamond suitable for use as the material component of a Raise Dead spell? Should a 5,000 GP diamond cost 15,000 GP? Or 20,000? Surely that's not too much for a chance to be raised from an untimely death. What's certain is that if the PCs balk at paying that much, the nobility, rich merchants, and other far-sighted folk would be delighted to snap them up, horde them, and drive up the prices even further (while ensuring their own access to Raise Dead, of course!).
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A 5000 gps diamond is, by definition, one that costs 5000gps. It's not size or carat weight, it's cost. In GPs. Which is 5000 of those.
Now yes, you do raise a point. Certainly there is very likely a steep price shelf for diamonds. They likely grade up in size and quality about as normal until they hit what sells for close to 5000, then they jump to that value.
To put it another way. In one region the PC's pay 5000 gps and get a large only slightly flawed stone with a nice color. A year and a nation away, they pay the same 5000gps and get a flawed, brownish piece of junk half the size. Both work perfectly for the spell, as the Deities recognize the same sacrifice has gone into the casting= 5000 gps.
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If you use economic theory, a 5000gp diamond is any diamond you'd be willing to pay 5000gp for.
It sort of breaks down that way, in that there is no inherent value to diamonds, there is only perceived value.
Thus, a diamond mined for 100gp, transported for 20gp, sold to the jeweler for 1000gp, and then sold to the customer for 5000gp is perfectly fine to use in a raise dead spell.
Another diamond that was mined for 500gp, transported for 300gp, sold to the jeweler for 4999gp, and then sold to the customer for 5000gp is also perfectly fine to use in a raise dead spell.
At the end of the week, the jeweler makes a Profession: Jeweler check and receives his money from that.
Voila, the system works.
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You misunderstand the nature of Raise Dead's material component. It's not about the size or purity of the diamond (that does indeed vary as usual, with supply and demand) it's about sacrifice. Giving up something of a specific value to you in exchange for the dead returning to life. How large or pure the diamond is is immaterial, it's the fact that you paid 5,000 gp (more money than most peasants ever see) that you will never see again (well, not without a lot of effort) for it that matters.
Indeed, some diamond merchants probably sell s&&#ty, close-to-worthless diamonds to adventurers for purposes of Raise Dead...but that doesn't matter. They aren't the ones begging the Gods for a comrade's soul, are they? They aren't the ones who need to sacrifice. And, since the price was paid, those pathetic little diamonds work as well as much purer and more beautiful stones.
Or that's my take on it, anyway.
If you use economic theory, a 5000gp diamond is any diamond you'd be willing to pay 5000gp for.
It sort of breaks down that way, in that there is no inherent value to diamonds, there is only perceived value.
Thus, a diamond mined for 100gp, transported for 20gp, sold to the jeweler for 1000gp, and then sold to the customer for 5000gp is perfectly fine to use in a raise dead spell.
Another diamond that was mined for 500gp, transported for 300gp, sold to the jeweler for 4999gp, and then sold to the customer for 5000gp is also perfectly fine to use in a raise dead spell.
At the end of the week, the jeweler makes a Profession: Jeweler check and receives his money from that.
Voila, the system works.
I saw a comic once where the an adventurer paid excessive amounts of gold pieces to a vendor so that the item in question qualified for his gold piece requirements. Sure, it wasn't a particularly large, or even pretty diamond, but it cost him the appropriate amount and the vendor was amused (and naturally delighted to be of service).
You misunderstand the nature of Raise Dead's material component. It's not about the size or purity of the diamond (that does indeed vary as usual, with supply and demand) it's about sacrifice. Giving up something of a specific value to you in exchange for the dead returning to life. How large or pure the diamond is is immaterial, it's the fact that you paid 5,000 gp (more money than most peasants ever see) that you will never see again (well, not without a lot of effort) for it that matters.
Indeed, some diamond merchants probably sell s%~$ty, close-to-worthless diamonds to adventurers for purposes of Raise Dead...but that doesn't matter. They aren't the ones begging the Gods for a comrade's soul, are they? They aren't the ones who need to sacrifice. And, since the price was paid, those pathetic little diamonds work as well as much purer and more beautiful stones.
Or that's my take on it, anyway.
That's an interesting take...but then why not accept a 5,000 GP donation to the temple? Or throwing 5K down a hole? If there's nothing inherent in a diamond, and said diamonds are easy to get, then there's essentially no difference (except that a diamond is easier to carry than 5,000 coins). 5,000 GP to the temple even has the benefit of advancing the deity's agenda in the world. Or why not anything else that you paid 5K for?
Darn it, I'm overthinking this, aren't I? :-)
The 'invisible hand of the market' waves about in FSM fashion and fixes it -- I have assurances from the Libertarians that this is so.
I think that something else that you should consider is that in the basic DnD system gems are considered trade items. <http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final> This link goes to the equipment page of the Pathfinder System Reference Document. There right beneath the heading "Coins" is a heading called "Other Wealth". Under that heading it says exactly "Merchants commonly exchange trade goods without using currency. As a means of comparison, some trade goods are detailed on Table: Trade Goods."
What this means is that while certain items might cost more or less as a rule of supply and demand there are certain goods that retain there value not simply based on their supply but based on there usefulness or the items unending demand. Things like certain cloth goods, gems, spices, salt, grains, flour, livestock and metal. That means that these goods work just like coins for the purposes of buying and selling.
As for how these things keep their constant value, there are several different ways this might come about. It might be that certain goods like gems and metals have quality controls just like this world does. People who are specially trained to understand the financial significance of most gems and metals, this is easily done by even a 1st level expert. While other things like cloth, grain, spices, and livestock are likely regulated in price by the kingdom for purposes of trade with it's neighbors. Or if not that these items can be kept at constants to represent the wealth of the kingdom as a whole, rather like the wealth of the US is partially based on the amount of gold that we have in the treasuries. Technically the value of gold never changes (although television adds would have you believe otherwise), what changes is the economic value of a countries currency against the understood wealth of the gold kept in reserve.
I know I've typed too much as it is but I thought that this small explanation might help with your question or even improve your game play experience.
Peace and Good Gaming
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That's an interesting take...but then why not accept a 5,000 GP donation to the temple? Or throwing 5K down a hole? If there's nothing inherent in a diamond, and said diamonds are easy to get, then there's essentially no difference (except that a diamond is easier to carry than 5,000 coins). 5,000 GP to the temple even has the benefit of advancing the deity's agenda in the world. Or why not anything else that you paid 5K for?
Actually, James Jacobs once specifically said that different material components of the same value were fine and that (if there were room) different ones for every deity were a very thematic and appropriate idea. The game-rule importance is strictly the amount of money needed, so you can change the rest as a very easy and approved House Rule. Diamonds are just the thing listed for simplicity.
Darn it, I'm overthinking this, aren't I? :-)
Maybe, but as the one-time author of a level demographics thread for Golarion (the conclusions of which I still utilize), I'm hardly in a position to throw stones from my glass house.
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Darn it, I'm overthinking this, aren't I? :-)Maybe, but as the one-time author of a level demographics thread for Golarion (the conclusions of which I still utilize), I'm hardly in a position to throw stones from my glass house.
Sorry for venturing off the beaten path... But link? That sounds fascinating.
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another way of looking at is that some material components either work or don't work, and those generally who are interested in using them or selling them know what's what -- like how most fighters aren't going to get duped into paying masterwork prices for a regular weapon. So given supply and demand, the price naturally settles around 5,000 for diamonds which can raise dead or 25,000 for wishes, etc.
Sillier examples exist when you look too closely at the economics of an rpg, but riffing off a souls consider the treasure value per encounter: getting a 25,000 diamond won't happen until level 16 (medium progression) and remember that is total loot -- and most loot, like pc equipment, won't be concentrated into one item, much less one gem and I gotta believe that there is more demand for wishes than there are level 16 adventuring parties camping out whatever encounters are going to pop out 25,000 gp diamonds.
Or consider the soul trade, pathfinder has no rules for this, but 3.x did (if i recall), something like HD squared times 100 -- but when you examine the cost it takes to even trap a soul (1,000 per hd) you aren't even breaking even until hd10, not even considering the risk and difficulty it takes to trap a soul -- generally you have to kill the thing then cast a level 8 spell.
But if you really want to go down the rabbit hole check out the tome of awesome (http://code.google.com/p/awesometome/downloads/list), especially the book of gears (and the 3 economies)
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Sorry for venturing off the beaten path... But link? That sounds fascinating.
Link. Feel free to Thread Necromancy it if you want to discuss it.
Ergo, just sell every diamond you come across for 5000gp.
If you can find some desperate adventurers, sure. :)
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The gamesmastery guide puts diamonds in the 5,000gp or more bracket of Grand Jewels so we might infer that all diamonds that are not flawed are worth at least 5,000gp.
Which would make sense: every non-flawed diamond can be used to raise the dead, as such they have a minimum price of 5,000gp.
All diamonds are spectacularly expensive because of the spell, anything over 5,000gp is a charge for quality and prestige.
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Perhaps it's just a divine in game version of the crap the diamond sellers in the real world pull.
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The "it's just the sacrifice" angle is harder to push for arcane spells, IMO.
No it isn't. Sacrifice has a power to it, a metaphysical weight. It bends reality itself to the will of a dedicated caster. That's what it's for.
Why else is human sacrifice practiced to open dread portals or similar things?
My take on this is that all the prices listed in the book are suggested median prices for said goods in the campaign world. The prices are set there by supply and demand. Full plate costs so much, because they are rare (because they are difficult, time consuming and expensive to make) and wanted.
Lets say the only requirement for a diamond useable as a component for a Raise Dead spell, is sufficient size. Now, we can assume that the bigger the diamond is, the rarer it is. So, the diamonds of sufficient size for a Raise Dead, are of certain rarity. Now in the rulebook the suggested mid price is set by assumed rarity (supply) and the assumed demand for it. If you try to sell your diamond for 6000gp, it's propably worth for the customer to go elsewhere, because he'll find it for 5000gp (supply). If you offer your diamond for 4000gp, you'll propably sell it quicker than average, but take a loss, since you propably could have sold it for 5000gp on the longer run.
So this assumes the supply/demand ratio that the rulebook makers decided. If in some remote city would exist only one big enough diamond for a raise dead, the asking price for it could be a whole lot more.
In this scenario I think an interesting point is that there propably wouldn't even exist a '4999gp diamond'. A diamond could be sold for 4999gp sure, but then it would propably be a '5000gp diamond' that is usable for a Raise Dead. A diamond even a tiny bit smaller than the size required for raise dead, would be worth considerably less, because even though the rarity might be about equal (supply), the demand would be just fractions.
"I don't know why you all want those things anyway -- don't you know they are... nevermind." -- dragon on the source of dragon diamonds.
"I don't know why you all want those things anyway -- don't you know they are... nevermind." -- dragon on the source of dragon diamonds.
LOL. Wow that is a great reference. I think the dragon says something like "I don't understand why you humans value such things, don't you know it's my sh... Oh never mind." I've yet to play that game however I am going to be doing so in the very near future. Again great reference, it made my day.
It's just a wording nuance.
The wording for the spell should say:
"Material Components: A diamond of certain qualities easily identifiable by the caster, which typically costs 5000 gp in markets appropriate for purchase."
..but that's too long, and they figured the GM wouldn't try to screw you on it or rules lawyer it to death. Alas, for some GMs, they were wrong.
"Don't do it! The diamond business is a trap. Spellcasters are the driving force for diamond price. As such there are really only values for diamonds. Your diamond is either worth very little (used in rings and jewelry) or 5000gp. It doesn't matter how big you diamond is or how perfect it is. The market determines that diamonds will be worth no more than 5000gp. And trust me, I tried to pawn off the smaller diamonds to spellcasters at 5000gp a pop. That didn't work out at all, they took one look at my diamonds and ran next door to buy a better diamond for the same price. Superstitious lot, thinking that a poor quality diamond for 5000gp may not work with their spells."
To avoid much of this silliness, for my games my house rule is that magic makes change. Let's say your wizard has his 25,000 GP diamond for a wish. The cleric grabs it and uses it to raise dead instead. Rather than the universe taking the extra and letting out a cosmic giggle, I simply have the stone crack or cloud or shrink or some combination thereof which reduces it to a 20,000 GP stone. Similarly, less greedy wishes will get a discount. And if you start with a 29,343 GP gem and cast a full price wish, you have a 4343 diamond remaining.
I also use 1st ed "jewels of flawlessness" that increase the value of other gemstones. My thought is that these are minor artifacts that either naturally occur, or the gods salt the earth with, or both, so that the universe doesn't run out of gems and magic can keep going.
What happens if you debase your currency does that make raise dead cheaper or otherwise cause inflation. Likewise if you debase your currency and engage in seignorage does this make materail components cheaper? Infaltion is teh broken. stone of seignorage sounds like it could be an mythical artifact that would end up making costly materail components cheaper.
To avoid much of this silliness, for my games my house rule is that magic makes change. Let's say your wizard has his 25,000 GP diamond for a wish. The cleric grabs it and uses it to raise dead instead. Rather than the universe taking the extra and letting out a cosmic giggle, I simply have the stone crack or cloud or shrink or some combination thereof which reduces it to a 20,000 GP stone. Similarly, less greedy wishes will get a discount. And if you start with a 29,343 GP gem and cast a full price wish, you have a 4343 diamond remaining.
That's the opposite of this silliness. Can a cleric use 100 50gp diamonds?
If so, that at least helps restore the continuum of diamond prices.
Yes.
And in fact I let any gemstones be used. Saves the trouble of people having to carry vials of gemstone dust and just assuming that pulverizing the stone into glitter is part of what happens with the spell.
I have a degree in economics and I fall on the simulationist side of roleplaying. For my own sanity I have to take things as is and not think about the logical implications of Pathfinder economics. I don't want my brain to explode.
The forum ate my post, so here's a short version. The diamond is likely important. A caster knows what he or she needs to use to cast a spell, but a jeweler likely doesn't know exactly what kind of diamond is good enough, be it size, purity, clarity or whatever else. The exact qualities that make a diamond good for spellcasting are unknown, maybe even to casters.
The caster simply knows that in order to cast this spell, they need a diamond that usually goes for a normal market value of about 5000 GP. "What do we need to do, bring someone back from the dead? I'm gonna need some diamond. That 5000 GP one aught'ta do it."