Advice sought on a monk obsessed with grapple>>pin>>bind with rope.


Advice


So I have this player who is playing a monk that spends a lot of time grappling enemies with the intent to pin and tie up. Basically he wants to carry short lengths of rope to bind enemies and I am unsure how many he could realistically carry, weight and length of them.

I have spent time getting my head around the grappling rules purely because of his obsession and it is kind of fun in a rp sense for his character. However the rogue piped up and asked if a coup de grace is possible on tied up enemies but I ruled it as a no for now.

Might sound a silly question but some other input will help my thoughts and feelings on the matter.

thanks!


Yes.

SRD wrote:


'Helpless'
A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy.
<snip>
An enemy can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless foe.
<snip>


I don't think the carrying/encumbrance rules are going to provide you much help here. The answer to "how many he can carry" is pretty much always going to be "enough" especially when they can be re-used.

Tying up rules are pretty awful (and start to not make sense at all with non humanoid enemies) but the grapple rules expressly state that a tied up character continues to be pinned (rather than necessarily helpless and thus eligible to be coup de graced). But the helpless condition does refer to "bound" so there is at least an argument otherwise (I think specific trumps general here leaving "bound" to apply to the kind of scenario where you beat something unconscious and then take your time tying it up but YMMV).

In terms of tying up, the grappler generally has to get the rope out so generally a move action plus the standard to actually tie. Whether that provokes to other adjacent enemies is less clear (and of course if any are still up its pretty easy to cut through a rope).

To be honest its not the tying that does much IMO. The grappler can simply hold the target pinned while the rest of the group smack it to death.

The only other thing I'd suggest is to read the rules very carefully. Applying the wrong bonuses to CMB and CMD can make things wonky very fast.


Thanks guys. I am going to go with not allowing a coup de grace on a concious tied up foe and state they are still able to at least wriggle to try and avoid some of a blow. As for his rope I guess a length of hemp rope cut into several lengths will have to do. I am just trying to make light of it as much as I can so we do not bog the game down with his personal crusade.


Probably "bound" for CdG purposes would be more of a full-body binding, as in stocks? Yea, my understanding is that, if you can wriggle and move your neck/head/heart around, I can't line up my axe to auto-headchop your head off... So I would rule with you, Huntersblades.


Dan E wrote:
Tying up rules are pretty awful (and start to not make sense at all with non humanoid enemies) but the grapple rules expressly state that a tied up character continues to be pinned (rather than necessarily helpless and thus eligible to be coup de graced).

I was also thinking of having a hog-tying PC at one point, and I agree that the rules are a little vague. For instance, do you need to be holding the rope in your free hand while tying the target up? If so, do you suffer the normal -4 penalty for grappling with only one free hand?

My interpretation: Using the Tie Up action is only good enough to keep your opponent "pinned", but you could spend some more time adding more rope (manacles, chains, whatever) to make your opponent "helpless".


honestly, I don't see the point of the designation of being able to wiggle a little bit if bound meaning I can't get a CdG.

In the end, if he is bound my [insert melee character here] will just stab repeatedly until dead. Effectively acting as a CdG, especially if the rest of the party joins me in the mess. The only time this isn't going to end that way is if the party paladin pips up and says we should take him to jail or we need info out of him first. Assuming all of this occurs after combat.

In the middle of combat, it would still be the same as the rouge most likely isn't going to pass up that sneak attack/the monk maintains the grapple (which I imagine him being able to do if he is specializing in it) and my [insert melee character here] stabs till dead.

SO, long story short such a designation seems largely unimportant to me. I admit their may be some cases where this wouldn't work out perfectly since if a DM wants something to live he can largely work to ensure that occurs.

Dark Archive

My friend Jason likes to do the same thing, and what I tell him when I run him is from the core rule book.
First and foremost you have to have a length of rope or quick draw. He has quick draw, so he initiates the grapple with two free hands.
If his opponent doesn't try to escape the grapple Jason than receives a +5 bonus for the rest of the grapple On round 3 if the opponent hasn't broken the pin, Jason can they quick draw rope, and attempt the tie up check at a -10, but with a +5 bonus for a total of -5 to his total bonus against his opponents CMD

Below is everything from the book to support the argument for bonuses and penalties and the how to's.

"If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make
a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the
hold. If your target does not break the grapple, you get a +5
circumstance bonus on grapple checks made against the
same target in subsequent rounds."

Pin: You can give your opponent the pinned condition
(see Appendix 2). Despite pinning your opponent, you
still only have the grappled condition, but you lose your
Dexterity bonus to AC.

Tie Up: If you have your target pinned, otherwise
restrained, or unconscious, you can use rope to tie him up.
This works like a pin effect, but the DC to escape the bonds
is equal to 20 + your Combat Maneuver Bonus (instead
of your CMD). The ropes do not need to make a check
every round to maintain the pin. If you are grappling the
target, you can attempt to tie him up in ropes, but doing
so requires a combat maneuver check at a –10 penalty. If
the DC to escape from these bindings is higher than 20 +
the target’s CMB, the target cannot escape from the bonds,
even with a natural 20 on the check.


So how does this work?

rounds
1. initiate Grapple (is that with rope in hand or not?)

2. hope to maintain and pin (is this when the rope is drawn?)

3. maintain pin and bind (tie-up BBEG?)

Dark Archive

How Jason does it

Round 1
Unarmed round one attempt grapple at natural check. if successful, and subject doesn't break free, proceed to round 2.

Round 2
Still unarmed attempt to pin with +5 bonus, as subject didn't break out last round, if pin is successful, and target doesn't break the grapple, proceed to round 3.

Round 3
Quick draw rope, attempt combat maneuver "tie up" with a -10 to start, but a +5 from target not having broken the grapple, however add an additional -4 to the roll, as you dont have both hands free now. So an effective -9 to your attempt to tie up.
Very hard to do, if successful BBEG now is considered "bound" and gains the helpless condition.
The DC to escape is now 20+ your CMB so if it's a base CMB of say 14, then the DC to escape being tied up is now 34 If your CMD is 13 then you cannot escape the tie up, as if the DC is higher than 20 + the targets CMB you cant get free even with a natural 20.

Dark Archive

The one thing to understand here however is. In Jason's case, he dosent want to do damage, he just likes to tie things up, and so when I GM I understand, some players want to do huge numbers, if his thing is to spend 3 rounds trying to tie something up, then who is hurting.
It slows down the game a bit, but no more than someone critting with a x3 or x4 weapon, and then coming up with 140 points of damage after ten minutes of math.


CptTylorX wrote:
On round 3 if the opponent hasn't broken the pin, Jason can they quick draw rope, and attempt the tie up check at a -10, but with a +5 bonus for a total of -5 to his total bonus against his opponents CMD

I think the -10 only applies if you have your opponent grappled but not pinned. So if Jason tried it on round 2, he'd have a -10 penalty, but not on round 3 (if he successfully pinned in round 2).


One of the problems with this concept is that it should only work on roughly humanoid and relatively low strength creatures. A bound creature can still use escape artist to get out or a strength check to break the rope. I would rule that a large target requires 4times as much rope and that a non-humanoid is harder still. Binding something like an ooze of course is patently impossible. - Gauss

Dark Archive

You could do it on round 2 if so desired. grapple does provide the restrained condition. Also Gauss, you cannot get free of tie up with a strength check, as the raw shows the dc to escape tie up. You can attempt to get free of a tie up with a CMD check, however if your check with a natural 20 + your CMD doesn't beat the Dc imposed by tie up then you can't get out.

Also the -10 stays in effect as it's part of the combat maneuver, as written.

Silver Crusade

Geez, just let this guy have his fun with his character.
So the rogue is able to coup de grâce a tied target ? And what ? You've got players working together, what are you complaining about and what else could you ask for ? The monk player spent feats to grapple foes, is using his whole rounds to debuff a single target and may still fail easily because of the -10 penalty to rolls just to make this strategy valid, and you'll in addition DM fiat that it doesn't work ? The monk may throw scorching rays from his eyes, fall several meters like if it was nothing, close wounds with his mind, grow a bark skin, kill creatures by shouting at them or throw Hadoukens, but it's irrealistic to have several cords around himself ?

I'll let you know, I'm currently playing the exact same tetori monk concept... at level 15. A level where I can pin a foe in a single round.
Last game session, I Ki Shout'd an air elemental to death with my voice, just before going against a living tornado creature that I grappled. The tornado teleport'd with me over 150 feet high in the sky and did a natural 20 to escape the pinned condition and throw me on earth with all it's strength. I fell like a stone, but dimension door'd over it just before hitting the ground, and smacked it's ugly windy face for a nasty 46d6+20 damage of falling object before going again straight to the ground with the same momentum. I only survived the fall because I drank a potion of Fluid Form while in the air... or better, because I actually freaking ate the aluminium flask that contained it.
Everyone laughed around the table as I hit the pinacle of sheer badawesomenessery in the shape of a large water puddle, and the DM granted me two successive "good points", the chips used to reward good roleplay or collaborative game.

So, is the binding rope monk overpowered ? Only if you do single target fights, the same way you don't complain about an archer paladin being overpowered if you put him each time right in a plain in front of a single evil dragon without any kind of concealment or protection.

Dark Archive

Maxx I'm with you. My buddy jason just does it because he wants to have fun doing different and weird things. I just make sure he takes care of the rules, and then hell let people have fun with their concepts and builds.


Where can I find a build for this? - I'd like to make an NPC bounty hunter (the lawful type) who catches lawbreakers like this.

Edit: I found bits of what I'm looking for here http://www.koboldpress.com/k/front-page13331.php -- such as what archetypes are good for that.

Barbarians (and thus including the Brutal Pugilist) have to be non-lawful, while monks (including maneuver master) have to be lawful -- unless you start with a monk and then lose your way (i.e. no more levels in monk, but yay for abusing the killing machine that your body has become), and sell your body for money... no not like that. In the ring, brawling... - Would there be much of an advantage to multi-classing here though?

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