The last bard who was in my party just stood around, flanked things, and used inspire courage. kinda helpful, but he never dealt any notable amount of damage.Did you count the extra damage the rest of the party did thanks to inspire courage? That flat bonus to damage came from the bard. Any attacks that would have missed without the to-hit bonus came from the bard.
This. In most conventional parties, a bard is an extremely damaging character. All the bonus damage from every attack? Bard's damage. Every attack from every ally that would have missed without inspire courage? Bard's damage. That's before any spell buffs. In a party with multiple martial classes (especially TWF/Monk/Summoner), I wouldn't be surprised if a bard was the most damaging character in the party, in addition to having about a jillion skills/level and 6-level casting.
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Level 7 opening round:
Move action: Inspire Courage for +2 to hit, damage and saves vs FearStandard action: Good Hope for +2 to hit, damage, saves, ability and skill checks. Or Haste for +1 attack, +1 to hit, AC, Reflex.
Everyone loves the bard for a reason.
Add a meta magic rod of "Quicken" to that, and it becomes:
SWIFT: Cast Haste
MOVE: Inspire Courage, +2 to hit, +2 damage, +2 saves vs fear
Standard: Good Hope
For grand total +5 to hit, +4 damage, +4 saves vs fear, +1 to AC, etc. etc.
Plus, can take a 5' step to set up a flank/charge for next turn.
I combined that, with 3 levels of rogue for a 10th level game, and did some pretty ugly SA damage. Lots of static bonuses, long spear so that I had 10' reach, lunge at one point...was like I could hit most things on the field of battle, flank most things on the field of battle, and usually being 10-15' away they couldn't hit back without moving and provoking AoO from someone, plus not getting a Full Round of attacks back on me.
Oh, plus it was just badass in general.
Holy cow this thread exploded.
Thanks everyone! I'm actually kind of excited to try bard now. I noticed the Detective Archetype so if we wanna keep this going anyone know what good uses that is for?
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@Deadmanwalking: I am loving all your points, you have some awesome insight on Bards! :)
Thanks, always happy to be of help. :)
I'm looking to make a new character for a group. I DM this group but want a character I can play some times as well, also plan on letting another player DM sometimes. This character will also be an extra character when we have extra players for the night (we have a few players who could show up).
I don't want to be a damage dealer nor do I want it to be a healer. I want to help the other characters shine and have fun. I esp want to help the barbarian in the group who is playing for the first time and has sucky attack rolls so far. I want to help in combat, but I don't want to be the star (at least not obviously).
That should definitely be workable as a Bard. :)
Right now we only have access to core and advanced players handbooks. Hopefully I can buy other books soon, but not viable for this character yet.
The existence of the PRD and SRD means that you don't need the actual books to use some limited content from them. Just FYI.
At this point the whip using tripper/controller has really stood out to me. But, it seems that any class can do the same thing with the whip. Bard class kind of feels added on to this character. What other skills, spells, feats, etc should I be looking at to make this character flow as a bard?
Also I love the spell grease, so that helps.
Max out Charisma and focus on controller spells as much as the whip use (if not more so). Use the whip on low-priority targets and the Bard spells on tougher stuff. That makes Bard the thing you do. Especially with some focused buff spells as well.
Holy cow this thread exploded.
Thanks everyone! I'm actually kind of excited to try bard now. I noticed the Detective Archetype so if we wanna keep this going anyone know what good uses that is for?
The Detective Bard is, as Chris Kenney mentioned, less than ideal. They give up Inspire Courage for...nothing I'd really want. Though I suppose groups with a Detective in them are hard to trap or sneak up on. And other Bard types debatably make better actual detectives, anyway.
The only real use I could see for it is in the All Bard Group (a concept that I think would be really fun) where someone else is already providing Inspire Courage, at which point their other abilities start being a lot more worth it.
Most of the bard archtypes do not impress me. However the bard is much more useful now (most of the jokes are leftover from 2nd ed and The Gamers II).
I think a lot of the RP use of a bard depends on the world you're in. The more advanced the better a bard is. Case in point, I'm running an Eberron game, the paladin has a habit of pushing NPCs around. Then he met a bard journalist and got his ass kicked across the entire setting in the pages of the Korranberg Chronicle.
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Most of the bard archtypes do not impress me. However the bard is much more useful now (most of the jokes are leftover from 2nd ed and The Gamers II).
Agreed. Mostly, anyway. Though some Archetypes are quite good. The Archivist is pretty handy, for example, as are the Arcane Duelist and the Magician.
I think a lot of the RP use of a bard depends on the world you're in. The more advanced the better a bard is. Case in point, I'm running an Eberron game, the paladin has a habit of pushing NPCs around. Then he met a bard journalist and got his ass kicked across the entire setting in the pages of the Korranberg Chronicle.
I agree it depends on the world, but a Bard in a low-tech world can be every bit as good, especially if you take a page from real-world cultures and have hospitality sacred and make it bad luck to harm Bards. Those two little traditions make Bards very cool indeed.
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I'm currently playing a bard and loving it. I control the battlefield and lock down enemies, buff my allies and basically win at any out-of-combat stuff.
I guess some people can't get over the old 3.x bard hate, or the myth that every bard needs to be played like a magical minstrel, strumming a lute in the middle of battle (which is simply wrong, a bard can represent just about any charismatic or knowledgeable heroic archetype).
In any case, you'll enjoy being the most important player in and out of combat. Bards carry the party, but they do so with subtlety. Perhaps that's why they don't seem very impressive at first glance.
I recently got into a game that's been going for a few session now, and I've been playing a Dirge Bard.
The ability to spontaneously reanimate a fallen enemy and have it start wailing on its previous allies simply cannot be overstated in its awesomeness. And you get to do it as a move/swift action. For no cost.
It's basically part time necromancy with no strings attached (Hell, I'm chaotic good!) and no startup costs.
I love the bard flavour, it's so flexible.
Playing a Street Magician styled street performer at the moment for pfs. I regret being new and picking the archetype along with other poor choices in character creation but it's fun so far and am working on being less of a drag, aha
Bards are not as good at buffing as a primary caster like cleric or wizard. Their spell list is nice, but offensively is heavily focused towards humanoid type opponents. I find their spell list appeal has diminished a bit since summoner came out, who gets MUCH nicer spells and level reductions (Summoner even gets haste, invis, and greater invis at a lower level than bards...what's with that?!). Likewise, being the arcane warrior type feels less cool now that Magus came along and does it so much better, while still effectively having the same skill points (due to being an int caster) and being a prepared caster (which is better than being spontaneous).
Bards still are decent, and certainly great at out-roguing the rogue. But they're definitely a bit too mediocre at everything, good at nothing, for many people's tastes.
I'm making a Dawnflower Dervish currently. Not really expecting to be that good, but the game has a lot of social encounters, so I figure I'll be decent in both that and combat rather than one or the other. I also really wanted to play a melee character yet not suck in such a game, so bard w/ combat oriented archetype seemed liked a good compromise.
Why play bard? Bard in my party has more lovers than the rest of party combined (including witch that is quite active in her pursuits) and will probably get more faster than anyone else.
Why play bard? Bard in my party has more lovers than the rest of party combined (including witch that is quite active in her pursuits) and will probably get more faster than anyone else.
Hah! I was actually planning on taking Unnatural Lust spell, since I'll be a melee focused character, and using it on enemy casters to make them run up to kiss/grope me before realizing how screwed (yay, puns!) they are. Sort of like a pre-errata Antagonize, except instead of getting punched in the face, you get to 1st or 2nd base. :)
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Bards are great...if you are an unselfish player. Because Bards are good at a lot of things but great at few things, are skill monkeys and buffers every party benefits from having a Bard. But if you are a power gamer and min/maxer especially one focused on combat and raw power, you will not be happy playing a Bard.
Bards are not as good at buffing as a primary caster like cleric or wizard.My brain... it HURTS...
Someone, quickly, explain why this is the wrongest statement on teh interwebz!
Well, bards indeed lack bull's strength on their spell list and don't get haste until 7th level...
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Bards are pretty awesome. They are wonderfully flexible and can always fill in when the party is in a tight spot.
This is also why bards are terrible.
If you are a barbarian, for example, you can walk around and hit things with your axe. Doesn't matter what the problem is, the solution is to hit it with your axe. Generally, the rest of the party will deal with the rest of it.
If you are a sorceror, you could easily cast magic missile at everything. That's where we get the joke "I magic missile the darkness". Again, the rest of the party will take care of the rest.
If you are a bard, you ARE the rest of the party. Now, you have to THINK. You have to CHOOSE. You have good skills, are decent in a fight, are decent with spells, have bardic abilities, and can usually heal. It's not as simple to know what the best move is. As a result, people can and do play bards poorly.
But when done well, bards are one of the strongest classes in the game. The barbarian and sorceror above will be 100% effective about half the time. A bard can be 75% effective about all the time. Overall, that's a more effective character, even if you never manage to do this.
Bards are pretty awesome. They are wonderfully flexible and can always fill in when the party is in a tight spot.This is also why bards are terrible.
If you are a barbarian, for example, you can walk around and hit things with your axe. Doesn't matter what the problem is, the solution is to hit it with your axe. Generally, the rest of the party will deal with the rest of it.
If you are a sorceror, you could easily cast magic missile at everything. That's where we get the joke "I magic missile the darkness". Again, the rest of the party will take care of the rest.
If you are a bard, you ARE the rest of the party. Now, you have to THINK. You have to CHOOSE. You have good skills, are decent in a fight, are decent with spells, have bardic abilities, and can usually heal. It's not as simple to know what the best move is. As a result, people can and do play bards poorly.
But when done well, bards are one of the strongest classes in the game. The barbarian and sorceror above will be 100% effective about half the time. A bard can be 75% effective about all the time. Overall, that's a more effective character, even if you never manage to do this.
Well put :-)
Bards are not an easy class to play effectively. They are good to let you try out a little bit of everything, though :-)
Okay. I've got a question here (perhaps a stupid one) that maybe you guys can help with.
An Archaeologist Bard gets Clever Explorer at 2nd level right? That gives a bonus equal to half his level on Perception skill checks and to Disable Device skill checks. At 6th level, he can also use his Disable Device to disarm magic traps and can Take 10 on Disable Device skill checks.
Bards do not have Disable Device as a class skill. And the Archaeologist archetype doesn't add it.
Why? Is the +3 class skill bonus worth all of the other things that the Archaeologist gives up?
Master Arminas
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Bards are not as good at buffing as a primary caster like cleric or wizard.
This is wrong -- they are strictly better than a cleric or wizard when it comes to buffing. They offer the most and best combination of bonuses as well as getting them out faster than anyone else can (especially of equal level).
I suppose if your GM is of the type where you really need longevity, there might be some buffing oracle-sorcerer builds that can outlast a bard. But anything in the reasonable 4-6 encounters a day range isn't going to.Bards are not as good at buffing as a primary caster like cleric or wizard.This is wrong -- they are strictly better than a cleric or wizard when it comes to buffing. They offer the most and best combination of bonuses as well as getting them out faster than anyone else can (especially of equal level).
Even then my money really isn't on the oracle-sorcerer either. They aren't going to be contributing as much directly most likely and the bonuses they can offer are also less meaning fights are going to take longer.
With things like lingering performance around the bard is highly likely to have enough slots to keep the buffs flowing for a long while.
Okay. I've got a question here (perhaps a stupid one) that maybe you guys can help with.
An Archaeologist Bard gets Clever Explorer at 2nd level right? That gives a bonus equal to half his level on Perception skill checks and to Disable Device skill checks. At 6th level, he can also use his Disable Device to disarm magic traps and can Take 10 on Disable Device skill checks.
Bards do not have Disable Device as a class skill. And the Archaeologist archetype doesn't add it.
Why? Is the +3 class skill bonus worth all of the other things that the Archaeologist gives up?
Master Arminas
Word of dev is that Archaeologist's not having DD as a class skill is indeed intentional, obstensibly so the rogue still has some niche (it does not). It's possible to pick up DD as a class skill as a trait if you're really looking to get that check up there.
Ok, secondary question, that might start a whole new argument, What race is best for bard(all core/3PP/previous editions)?
Ok, secondary question, that might start a whole new argument, What race is best for bard(all core/3PP/previous editions)?
I prefer humans. I just really love that extra feat. That said, I prefer races with a floating +2 ability bonus. Leaves you more options for your build. I've seen half elf as a common choice.
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Word of dev is that Archaeologist's not having DD as a class skill is indeed intentional, obstensibly so the rogue still has some niche (it does not). It's possible to pick up DD as a class skill as a trait if you're really looking to get that check up there.
Yeah, bit of a shame that the archaeologist was denied DD as a class skill and is still a far superior DD'er than the rogue by 6th level. Still can't imagine playing on over a vanilla bard. A bard who does not inspire is scarcely a bard at all.
Hmm I've never been partial to the floating +2.
Most combats in Jade Regent go from "This should be hard, be on your toes!" to "haha pwned lol cakewalk" because of a PC playing Ameiko-- the bard.
Before: Heroism (+2) and moment of greatness (doubles +2 to +4 for one called roll)
1st round: Inspire (+3) and haste (+1, extra attack)
2nd round: Good hope (+2) if noone has heroism
3rd round: PCs have a +6 to hit and +5 to damage or something absurd, and now the fighters can't miss unless they roll a nat 1. Combat may as well be over.
Bards are Party Multipliers. Ever waste a turn? A bard will guarantee that unless your die turns up 1 multiple times, you're going to deal some serious damage.
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Ok, secondary question, that might start a whole new argument, What race is best for bard(all core/3PP/previous editions)?
Depends on what you want. Humans and Halflings are both wonderful archer-bards (Dex+Cha for the Halfling, Precise shot at 1st instead of 3rd for the human), Half-Elves (with Ancestral Arms) and Half-Orcs are both excellent melee specialists (getting a nasty two-handed weapon). Gnomes or Humans are probably the best controller-bards (bonuses on illusions or language dependent spells), and any race with a Charisma bonus is pretty good. Humans are actually close to as good as the top picks for any Bard...their advantages as an archer are just more pronounced.
Yeah, bit of a shame that the archaeologist was denied DD as a class skill and is still a far superior DD'er than the rogue by 6th level. Still can't imagine playing on over a vanilla bard. A bard who does not inspire is scarcely a bard at all.
You don't play one if you want to play a Bard. You play one (and take Vagabond Child) if you want to play a Rogue but would rather have Charisma-based spellcasting and high Knowledge skills than Sneak Attack. That's really their role, after all, and I say this having one in my current game.
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And for the record, though I'm not gonna jump into the argument, I'll say that I am very much in agreement that Bards are beter buffers than anyone else...unless you have a lot of combats a day, and multiple rounds to prep before each, in which case some kinds of full caster pull ahead. A Bard can do all his buffing in a round, maybe two. A Cleric...really can't. Not to the same degree.
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Yeah, bit of a shame that the archaeologist was denied DD as a class skill and is still a far superior DD'er than the rogue by 6th level. Still can't imagine playing on over a vanilla bard. A bard who does not inspire is scarcely a bard at all.You don't play one if you want to play a Bard. You play one (and take Vagabond Child) if you want to play a Rogue but would rather have Charisma-based spellcasting and high Knowledge skills than Sneak Attack. That's really their role, after all, and I say this having one in my current game.
I think the bottom line here is the fact that there is a bard archetype that is better at disarming traps and opening locks than the rogue. Both classes really fulfill the same role in the end. You can want to play a bard and not want to deal with the extra resource management of performance buffs. I just would prefer keeping the buffs.
Ok, secondary question, that might start a whole new argument, What race is best for bard(all core/3PP/previous editions)?
I prefer Fetchlings. +Dex/Cha, -Wis, dark and low-light vision, extra concealment in darkness, some cool racial spell-likes. Great race. Taking a -4 on save DCs for Hideous Laughter kinda sucks, but oh well.
It's hard to top human, though, because they get something no one else does -- bonus spells known as a favored class bonus. Just like with Sorcerer, unless you houserule that option to any race, it basically makes humans the only valid choice from an optimization standpoint. A shame, really. I hate playing humans, 3/4 - 4/5 of all the PCs I've ever seen have been human, it's so stale.
Removed some posts and replies to it. Please try to be respectful of other posters.
Ok, secondary question, that might start a whole new argument, What race is best for bard(all core/3PP/previous editions)?
I love the bard and I will try to offer you a more extensive post later.
What race you should play depends much on what kind of bard you like and if you more into flavor than power.Me, I prefer humans. Halv elves and Half orks are nice too, but humans got a favored class option giving them more spells know, So humans are a rock solid choice.
As for Bards: I would play a core bard. If you want to play a melee bard the arcane duelist is great.
The arcane duelist have IC and DD. - the two most powerful Bardic performances in the game. It is one of the archetype that keep the most iconic Bardic abilities.
/zark
PS don't forget to get some good meta magic rods to you bard and as an archer a cross bow or a composite short bow is fine. You don't need the longbow.