Create Spawn Questions

Rules Questions

Ok so i was browsing libris Mortis which has a large section on Undead, and how the undeads spawn ability ends up functioning. The basics are that the undead created by the spawn ability are under the control of the creature that created it.

The question I ask does this transfer over to pathfinder? I see no universal Monster rules about the create spawn ability and it matters for undead that you can create as if you make a Juju/brain eating zombie it is intelligent and if it kills a creature it has bitten it rises 2D6 hours later as the same type of zombie it was killed by, in this case a braineating juju zombie.

In vampires and other undead they gain control of their spawn but are limited. I can see why this wasn't clarified with the brain eating zombie as most people will only put it on regular zombies which are unintelligent but with the release of undead revisited and hard rules for creating skeletal champions and juju zombies (and by proxie Zombie Lords), this has come to a very real possibility that an intelligent brain eating zombie might come to exist.

There is also the issue of Juju Zombies made through the Spirit Vessels ability that are not Evil. Now when they create spawn do they rise as intelligent juju brain eating zombies or do they follow the exact type as the parent I.E whatever alignment the creator of the first was?

I'm looking for hard, quotable rules, not just what people think, i know the developers are busy people so i don't expect a response from them but if there are rules that exist for this situation i'd love to see them.

Thank you for your time and helping me find an answer for this

Elias Darrowphayne wrote:

I'm looking for hard, quotable rules, not just what people think,

If only this was always people's goal, and always people's response. Sadly, with a question like this you're likely to only get opinions, because there really isn't a lot of hard fact on this topic.

Libris Mortis came out late in 3.5, and basically created a lot of the undead control rules. Its goal was to make playable necromancers more viable (we won't comment on whether or not it succeeded, heh). . . and Pathfinder just isn't there yet. The monsters that do exist that do have the Create Spawn ability have been created by dozens of different developers, and while those developers doubtless work diligently to make them as similar in both scope and applicability as possible, their desired end creations are different, so small inconsistencies occur.

So in direct answer to your first, direct question ("The question I ask does this transfer over to pathfinder?"), sadly, no. Not yet. :(

You did say you're not interested in opinions on how the rules work, so I won't offer mine in that area, but I would suggest talking to your DM. Hopefully you and he can cobble something together that works for both of you. Alternatively, you might try the Homebrew section. They may have already done just that. Tri-alternatively, I may be wrong, and this post may be just the bait someone more knowledgeable than me needs to come out of the woodwork. ;-)

Either way, best of luck to you. :)

Thank you very much for that Brogue, i've unfortunately asked this question before and not gotten any answers, which is why i put the "not looking for opinions" part as i was hoping that there were some hard rules out there that i was just not finding. Sadly it seems there is not.

I will end up taking your suggestion Brogue, my group ends up doing the usualy of 3.5+pathfinder in our games as pathfinder doesnt have too many options yet and quite frankly our group prefers 3.5 barbarian/bard for rage and music. (i dont understand why, but eh, to each there own) so if it has not been reprinted then it will most likely fly using libris mortis until pathfinder comes out with more solid rules on the subject.

Unfortunately with the way it seems pathfinder is going with there wanting to keep as much PFS safe as possible it doesnt seem likely a libris Mortis like book is ever to come out as in Golorian Undead are evil. Period. Even the juju Oracle's Spirit Vessels doesnt work as written because all undead are evil, no neutral undead or good undead.
And as pc's must not be evil in PFS....

It seems like playing a necromancer will never be viable.

Yeah, that's pretty much right on all points. To be fair, it's exceedingly difficult to balance a necromancer type class (at least, the kind that controls oodles of minions, a la Diablo II). It just doesn't make for balanced gameplay, and it slows the game down considerably. If they had a good solution for making it viable they'd no doubt post it, but, well, they may never have that option, heh.

I wish I could give you hard rules on the subject, because, honestly, anyone can spout out an opinion on here, but it's generally not worth a drop in a bucket because your DM won't care about the opinion of some random dude on the internet, and most people don't get that, heh.

If your DM is already OK with running Libris Mortis as it is and modifying it slightly for pathfinder, I say go for it. If you're already running a hybrid game, it shouldn't be too destabilizing. Another thought might be to modify the Summoner class a bit. Change the flavor, modify the spell options, add in some channeling, that sort of thing, to make it more necromantic.

Just a thought.

Good luck. :)

When creating vampires, it says they have to be the same type. Does that include subtype? Could a goblin vampire create a human vampire, or vice versa?

Liberty's Edge

TonyFio702 wrote:
When creating vampires, it says they have to be the same type. Does that include subtype? Could a goblin vampire create a human vampire, or vice versa?

Why you necroed two threads that were started and closed 11 years ago to ask this question?

Create Spawn (Su): A vampire can create spawn out of those it slays with blood drain or energy drain, provided that the slain creature is of the same creature type as the vampire’s base creature type. The victim rises from death as a vampire in 1d4 days. This vampire is under the command of the vampire that created it, and remains enslaved until its master’s destruction. A vampire may have enslaved spawn totaling no more than twice its own Hit Dice; any spawn it creates that would exceed this limit become free-willed undead. A vampire may free an enslaved spawn in order to enslave a new spawn, but once freed, a vampire or vampire spawn cannot be enslaved again.

A type doesn't include the subtype.


Monster Types

Each creature has one type, which broadly defines its abilities. Some creatures also have one or more subtypes. A creature cannot violate the rules of its subtype without a special ability or quality to explain the difference—templates can often change a creature's type drastically.

Monster Subtypes

Some creatures have one or more subtypes. Subtypes add additional abilities and qualities to a creature.

Your Vampire has the subtype Goblinoid, but he can create a spawn from every creature of the Humanoid type.

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