Does Rogue talent Major magic allow you to qualify for Dragon disciple?


Rules Questions

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Would minor talent be able to fill the mate hand requirement of arcane trickster? The AT requirements doesn't specify mate hand as spell.

Thinking witch/anatomist/trickster


stringburka wrote:

Would minor talent be able to fill the mate hand requirement of arcane trickster? The AT requirements doesn't specify mate hand as spell.

Thinking witch/anatomist/trickster

no and for the same reason. SLA's are not spells. they are "spell like."


But at doesn't mention "mage hand as spell", it just says "cast mage hand" and magic talent states you cast the chosen spell as a spell-like ability.


stringburka wrote:
But at doesn't mention "mage hand as spell", it just says "cast mage hand" and magic talent states you cast the chosen spell as a spell-like ability.

There is a thread on this. James Jachobs (I think) chimed in. This is a long road, but sufficed to say the answer is no. It's been tried, discussed, and shot down. Sorry.


Oh okay. Thanks!


stringburka wrote:
But at doesn't mention "mage hand as spell", it just says "cast mage hand" and magic talent states you cast the chosen spell as a spell-like ability.

The wording could be better, but a spell-like ability is not a spell and is not "cast" as such, rather activated. This might be helpful for understanding it:

Source: FAQ

Quote:

Spell-Like Abilities as Spells: Does a creature with a spell-like ability count as having that spell on its spell list for the purpose of activating spell completion or spell trigger items?

No. A spell-like ability is not a spell, having a spell-like ability is not part of a class's spell list, and therefore doesn't give the creature the ability to activate spell completion or spell trigger items.

—Sean K Reynolds, 08/22/11

You cannot activate items with it, you do not count as having the spell on your list - so it's pretty clear that you cannot use it to fulfill the arcane trickster's requirements :-)


A previous post on this http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz5eg5?SpellLike-Abilities-and-Bloodline-Arcana-t hat#21


Sangalor wrote:
You cannot activate items with it, you do not count as having the spell on your list - so it's pretty clear that you cannot use it to fulfill the arcane trickster's requirements :-)

My reasoning was that AT doesn't state that you need the spell Mage Hand - it says you have to have Mage Hand and doesn't specify if it's a spell or spell-like ability or not. While abilities are activated, activation and casting are not specified as exlusive descriptors to the action and it could be seen as SLA's being cast when activated (and indeed, a whole bunch of rules that apply to them use the word "cast" rather than "cast or activate").

So not being on spell lists and not being a spell, wouldn't necessarily mean anything as AT doesn't specify having it as a spell. In any case, JJ apparently has made a ruling on it and I'm not going up against that. We'll house rule it probably, I was mostly curious.


So did SKR and the rules themselves.


stringburka wrote:
Sangalor wrote:
You cannot activate items with it, you do not count as having the spell on your list - so it's pretty clear that you cannot use it to fulfill the arcane trickster's requirements :-)

My reasoning was that AT doesn't state that you need the spell Mage Hand - it says you have to have Mage Hand and doesn't specify if it's a spell or spell-like ability or not. While abilities are activated, activation and casting are not specified as exlusive descriptors to the action and it could be seen as SLA's being cast when activated (and indeed, a whole bunch of rules that apply to them use the word "cast" rather than "cast or activate").

So not being on spell lists and not being a spell, wouldn't necessarily mean anything as AT doesn't specify having it as a spell. In any case, JJ apparently has made a ruling on it and I'm not going up against that. We'll house rule it probably, I was mostly curious.

Cheapy referenced a better summary than I did :-)

In general when something says "ability to cast X" it references a spell. SLAs, like SUAs, are no spell and thus do not fulfill this basic requirement. So they do not need to write "...spell" explicitely for AT or any other class, feat or else :-)

Of course you are always free to house-rule it :-)


With sorc, you could do a tattoo sorc, where you get alertness, a familiar bonus, a SICK tattoo, and also the vasarian tattoo feat, which is another SLA 3/day.

As for spells and SLAs, what about the nightmare fist feat chain, from ultimate combat?

You need 1 rank intimidate and the ability to create magical darkness.

A tiefling or drow monk can take that at first level (some nasty cr 1/2 padawans!), but can they take the second feat when they meet the skill reqs? It says ability to cast darkness, and i'm not sure that SLA are cast, or just activated.


thoynan wrote:

With sorc, you could do a tattoo sorc, where you get alertness, a familiar bonus, a SICK tattoo, and also the vasarian tattoo feat, which is another SLA 3/day.

As for spells and SLAs, what about the nightmare fist feat chain, from ultimate combat?

You need 1 rank intimidate and the ability to create magical darkness.

A tiefling or drow monk can take that at first level (some nasty cr 1/2 padawans!), but can they take the second feat when they meet the skill reqs? It says ability to cast darkness, and i'm not sure that SLA are cast, or just activated.

I looked at the nightmare fist feat. It does not require you to be able to cast magical darkness, you only have to create it somehow. This is one of the easiest prerequisites of that kind I have ever seen - supernatural, spell-like, spells - they all fulfill it :-)

So it works.

SLAs would be activated, not cast, that is correct.


In regard to the OP, regardless of using spells, a level in dragon blooded sorcery is actually not that bad an idea.

It follows the rules for getting the prestige class and the levels stack with bloodlines powers ....

And should you decide to cast a spell, the extra spell levels grant more known spells as well as spellsnper day.

Not bad for a1 level dip

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