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I am DMing Carrion Crown currently and we want as a group to formulate 'rules' for dealing with character death in case it happens, so that we do not make hasty decisions at a potentially emotional or tired moment. Pretty much everything is agreed (I have pasted the rules at the bottom of this post for interest / use by others) as it comes from Paizo publications. However, there is one area about which I cannot find any guidelines in the Core Rulebook, Gamemastery Guide or on these messageboards and would appreciate some help please.
When a player chooses not to bring back their current PC in favour of adopting a new PC, should any XP penalties apply to the new PC or should the brand new PC take on the dead PC's XP total?
My gut reaction is there should be a penalty as choosing a new PC foregoes any financial penalties of casting / purchasing a raise dead or similar spell. Similarly, getting full XP can mean a more optimized PC in terms of feats, etc.
CURRENT RULES FORMULATED
In the event of a death in the party, the following rules shall guide us:* Any spell used to bring back a player shall be run as per the rules, including costs for spellcasting by a non-party member
* In the event a PC cannot be brought back from the dead, or in exceptional circumstances when the player wishes to adopt a new PC, the following shall be used to ensure death is not an easy route to wealth and XP:
** all the treasure of the dead PC will be forfeit except clear plot items; we shall assume that wealth is given to families, charities, paying for funeral, etc. (see Core Rulebook p403 for more guidance.)
** the new PC shall gain wealth according to the rules on Core Rulebook p400 and Table 12-4 on p399
** New PCs shall be built according to all the Character Creation rules
** When you all started you did not know each other and were thrown together through the common fact that the Professor knew you and trusted you. You had no choice in this and have now stuck together. A new arrival however, would realistically be vetted by the party for a number of reasons: what do they bring to the party? Do they fit the party ethic? Ad absurdam, would the PCs normally kill the PC, rather than adopt them in a completely unbelievable fashion?
*** This vetting should be performed sympathetically on all sides
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Not sure if there is actually a specific RAW to this either, someone better versed in the rules would have to speak to that.
I have always gone along with what your gut reaction is to do. Start that new PC off at the current level of the group with the minimum XP to be that level. The only exception to this is if YOU (as the DM) keep track of all XP for all the players and for ease of use would rather all the PCs keep the same XP for progression. I feel in the end it's the DM's call anyhow.
Your stated purpose is to prevent misuse of the gold and XP that would normally be consumed with raise or the like. OK that's reasonable. But you may want to consider that the PCs may be behind the wealth chart and thus a new character could be seen as a reward. If the low wealth PCs die off, the party average wealth would increase because of bringing in new wealthy PCs.
I wouldn't try to regulate every possibility beforehand. As you won't know the exact situation until it happens and now you've locked yourself into a solution before you know the entire problem.
I would simply state your goal that a 'replacement' PC is just that, it should not be substantially better (or worse) than the 'organic' PC it replaces.
Wealth and magic items should be similar. Organic characters will usually have suboptimal magic items that have been acquired during the course of the adventure, while a replacement character usually has an advantage in being able to buy just the right gear.
Here's what I've done in the past:
As you said, dead PC and all gear just disappears. Exceptions made for plot items and 'incidentals,' items that were bought with 'party treasure,' such as potions of cure light wounds, that were intended to help the entire party.
New PC starts with the average XP and wealth of the party. I've found even applying a just a one level penalty was counterproductive as it weakens the whole party and the player feels like they will always be behind the power curve.
Most players won't kill off a PC they like playing just to get ahead, so I don't think you have much to worry about on that front.
I've always found the hardest part is to integrate the new character with the others in a believable manner. If you can find an NPC that already exists, that's the best way, but is also the least likely.
While a 'job interview' seems reasonable, I don't imagine there are large numbers of itinerant adventurers wandering about, so a replacement will also likely be thrown into the party more out of necessity than as a result of searching for just the right person.
But hey whatever works for you and your table.
CURRENT RULES FORMULATED
In the event of a death in the party, the following rules shall guide us:* Any spell used to bring back a player shall be run as per the rules, including costs for spellcasting by a non-party member
* In the event a PC cannot be brought back from the dead, or in exceptional circumstances when the player wishes to adopt a new PC, the following shall be used to ensure death is not an easy route to wealth and XP:
** all the treasure of the dead PC will be forfeit except clear plot items; we shall assume that wealth is given to families, charities, paying for funeral, etc. (see Core Rulebook p403 for more guidance.)
** the new PC shall gain wealth according to the rules on Core Rulebook p400 and Table 12-4 on p399
** New PCs shall be built according to all the Character Creation rules
** When you all started you did not know each other and were thrown together through the common fact that the Professor knew you and trusted you. You had no choice in this and have now stuck together. A new arrival however, would...
Sounds like a good set of rules. If a player wishes to just ditch an existing PC for a new one, I'd impose an XP penalty, but otherwise I don't think new characters should be penalised.
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Full eps, same level.
Wealth one level below WBL table.
Yes, plot and party items stay with, everything else goes. Or the new guy come in with a lioncloth.
Yes, the new guy has to be part of the plot. No backstabbers or backgrounds where they will hate one of the other members. for being a elf, a wizard, whatever.
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let them loot the corpse. let the new guy come at Average Party Level with wealth as per the wealth by level chart.
but do the following
dissalow the same type of build (a 2WF rogue can't be used to replace a 2WF rogue, etc, an enchanter can replace a transmuter though)
dissallow more than half your wealth to be spent on a single item
assume any "background" craft checks took 10
introduce the new PC when you feel it's appropriate.
I say let them play what ever class they want no penalty just ensure that they don't try to get ahead wealth wise. I think that punishing a player for getting board with a character and wanting a new one is a major contributor to campaign fatigue. So long as they are not abusing new characters to gain an advantage.
dissalow the same type of build (a 2WF rogue can't be used to replace a 2WF rogue, etc, an enchanter can replace a transmuter though)
dissallow more than half your wealth to be spent on a single item
I like this! Some players like to do a 'rebuild' almost every level to optimise at that level - if a player wants to come in with the same class, race and concept then they lose a level is the way I'd play it.
How my group handles it is that they split the gold 5 ways. The 5th share goes to a party treasure pool that also handles events like dead characters. Since the treasure per encounter is slightly higher than the treasure per level this works out somewhat to the characters having slightly less than normal treasure individually but as a group they have what they should need.
Example: At level 9 with 18.75 encounters (the average to advance to 10th) the party should get 4,250gp per encounter. 4250*18.75/5 = just under 16,000gp per share. Added to 9th level individual treasure that is just under 62000gp which is where they should be at 10th level.
It isnt a perfect system, but by tweaking the split to anything between 4.5 to 5 shares for a party of 4 party equipment and consumables can be purchased.
Once this is done the replacement of a dead character with a new character should be a matter of 'you come in with same exp and gp' so that the player isnt feeling put out. The deceased character's equipment should never become part of party treasure (via a will or some such thing giving it to NPCs like family).
Unfortunately, in an thief or evil campaign all bets are off...but my way of dealing with that would be to tone down the treasure until things are in line again. Im a big believer that Weath by level is just as much a part of character power as feats are.
- Gauss
Besides, if you say it always goes to the heirs, then where are they? Why don't PCs ever start as the heirs of others that have left them thousands of gp worth of magic items? Doesn't happen, does it? Once again, immersion gets busted.
They do all the time. First there's a number of traits where you start with increased funds. Next, we have a 5th level PC who comes in out of the blue with full loot. Clearly, the reason he wasn't doing serious adventuring before, or didn't join up with this group, or even started adventuring, is that he got left that stuff by his rich uncle.
The problem is- if the dead guys stuff stays with the party, and the new guy gets to come in with full wealth we have the problem of too much WBL.
As a GM I can sympathize with the idea that the dead character's possessions disappear and are not available to the party, but I think it's far too damaging to any sense of immersion in the game world. There are many other ways to balance out the wealth system without such artificial and obvious steps.
Remind me not to invite you to my funeral.
That's too bad about Tim....let's see, what can I loot off his body.
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Dont give them wealth by level, the pcs will likely be behind on wealth and have little time to shop or craft. Start them off 1k gold behind what he had as a penalty. And the most expensive item they had is the cap on how much can be spent on any one item, give or take a few hundred gold to be nice.
If rewards were promised to the dead character the new one gets it.
As we have been running a little light on treasure (grumble) - and to attempt to rein in character cycling that doesn't contribute to the plot, our policy is that new characters come in with two negative levels to work off. This also goes for starting equipment.
we have also added that when a character levels, they also burn off a negative level.
If it fits the plot, works, and is fully explainable, then no penalties. Current group has had Four Deaths - two were replaced without penalties. One retirement was in no small part due to dissatisfaction with a Reincarnation.
I like the idea of taking the deceased characters equipment and, in effect, getting rid of it; there are any number of ways this can happen (church, family, buried in it, what have you).
Consumable equipment (magic ammunition, wands, potions, scrolls, etc) are probably best considered "party treasure" and can be absorbed by the other team members.
Plot items stay is just good sense.
DrDeth's idea of bringing in the new character at PC level -1 for wealth is smart, I think, especially for adventure paths; too easy to very quickly optimize the new character above what the party has otherwise.
As for having the new PC come in without being Landfill 2:
one of the things a fellow DM has done recently is have us create 2 or 3 characters at the start of the campaign, with some kind of tie between them. Logic is, if the unfortunate happens you have a backup ready to go who is already part of the story (however distantly).
Another option to consider is organizational ties. Is the PC a member of a Church? Order? Mercenary band? Academy of Magic? Any of those could be fodder for new PCs, and they allow some flexibility.
Recruitment: depending on the mission or cause the PCs are adventuring for, they may be able to simply travel to a large city and try to recruit a suitable adventurer to fill in the ranks. Can be a fun roleplay opportunity, too, for GM and players alike; one of those classic montage scenes you get in movies where the heroes are trying to find help (this guy is crazy, this guy is a wimp, this guy is terrifying, this guy will do!).
:) hope that helps!
Dead characters are buried with their loot.
1) From a game management point of view, this is the simplest solution. You don't have inflation of party resources with each death and you don't have the new guy showing up significantly weaker than the others and begging these new strangers to give him a lifetimes wealth of magic items.
2) It makes sense within the world as well. The trope of characters raiding tombs to find powerful items is so common, no one questions its existence. But how did those items get into the tomb in the first place? Someone buried them with them. You could even give the player of the dead character a budget and allow them to design a small tomb. Bam, instant tomb that can be raided in a future campaign.
Violent death is a common event among adventurers. I assume its something that gets talked about around the campfire, during long marches, etc. You see Billy, who didn't talk about what he wanted done with his body, so he got buried in the middle of no where with no grave marker. All because he didn't talk about what he wanted done with his dead body. So you mention that you've got family back in Magnimar and want your body sent back to them. I now assume these conversations come up between compatriots who regularly go into battle together.
CURRENT RULES FORMULATED
In the event of a death in the party, the following rules shall guide us:* Any spell used to bring back a player shall be run as per the rules, including costs for spellcasting by a non-party member
* In the event a PC cannot be brought back from the dead, or in exceptional circumstances when the player wishes to adopt a new PC, the following shall be used to ensure death is not an easy route to wealth and XP:
** all the treasure of the dead PC will be forfeit except clear plot items; we shall assume that wealth is given to families, charities, paying for funeral, etc. (see Core Rulebook p403 for more guidance.)
** the new PC shall gain wealth according to the rules on Core Rulebook p400 and Table 12-4 on p399
** New PCs shall be built according to all the Character Creation rules
** When you all started you did not know each other and were thrown together through the common fact that the Professor knew you and trusted you. You had no choice in this and have now stuck together. A new arrival however, would realistically be vetted by the party for a number of reasons: what do they bring to the party? Do they fit the party ethic? Ad absurdam, would the PCs normally kill the PC, rather than adopt them in a completely unbelievable fashion?
*** This vetting should be performed sympathetically on all sides
Sounds good for the most part. It challenges suspension of disbelief to have the PCs always turn over lost PCs gear. But it does work for game balance. I even use the same Vetting system in some games.
In my games however New PCs start at the minimum experience for the lowest level person in the party or one level below their old character whichever is higher. They start with NPC gear for their level. The party need not trade off the old PCs gear. This means the survivors will have higher wealth than the new guy pretty much always at introduction. It keeps WBL stable for the group as a whole. I am fairly generous with treasure and not very generous about selling treasure. I am also not prone to pulling punches when it comes to your gear. So very quickly the new guy starts to match the others in wealth (usually within two adventures). There is a bonus / penalty system I use for XP. Part of that system is a 20% bonus to earned XP for those who are below APL. This means you should catch up to APL inside 5 levels give or take a level based on the other bonuses or penalties they may have earned.
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Many thanks all for your time in debating this in order to help me make a decision.
For those interested I have gone with the following formal rule:
Any new PC to the campaign will start with a penalty to XP of half a level band of the PC they are replacing. If the old PC was in the lower half of their level, this reduction in XP will result in a negative level for the new PC until their XP reaches the entry point to the old PC’s level.
So an XP penalty is applied but not too harshly and in a way that the player never needs to construct a PC that is LEVEL-1, but can start with a new PC at the same level as the one he replaced, albeit maybe with some -1 penalties, etc. for a while.
Cheers all
J