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Forums,
One of my players is an undead bloodline sorcerer specced into the necromancy school. One of his staple spells is chill touch, which apparently hasn't had a good read at our table in quite some time.
In reviewing ths spell, it seems that chill touch, like scorching ray, allows multiple attacks per casting. Also like scorching ray, these attacks appear to be "stackable" against a single target.
For clarity, the chill touch spell is presented, below:
Chill Touch
School necromancy; Level magus 1, sorcerer/wizard 1, witch 1CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, SEFFECT
Range touch
Targets creature or creatures touched (up to one/level)
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw Fortitude partial or Will negates; see text; Spell Resistance yesDESCRIPTION
A touch from your hand, which glows with blue energy, disrupts the life force of living creatures. Each touch channels negative energy that deals 1d6 points of damage. The touched creature also takes 1 point of Strength damage unless it makes a successful Fortitude saving throw. You can use this melee touch attack up to one time per level.An undead creature you touch takes no damage of either sort, but it must make a successful Will saving throw or flee as if panicked for 1d4 rounds + 1 round per caster level.
The spell (like scorching ray) is instantaneous and can target one or more creatures. The description says that I can use this melee touch attack up to one time per level, and nothing in the description suggests that I cannot use all of these attacks against a single target.
So... can I? One chill touch for five seperate attacks against one single target?
Yes, you may use all of the attacks against a single target, but you need to make all the attacks. That is, you get one attack as part of casting the spell, and subsequent attacks as per "holding the charge". You don't get all of the attacks as part of casting the spell.
It works a lot like "Produce Flame", except that you can't hurl Chill Touch and you get a set number of touch attacks rather than a duration.
They'd have to be done on separate rounds with melee touch attacks, but yes. The Charge holds for that many touches until you dismiss it or cast another spell.
One chill touch for five seperate attacks against one single target?
The way it's generally understood (including how Creative Director James Jacobs would run it) is that it's like every other touch spell, but instead of being discharged as soon as the first touch is made, the spell remains in effect until you have touched the appropriate amount of creatures (or cast another spell).
This works balance wise, too. Comparing it to Shocking Grasp, you can get one big burst of damage, or use Chill to get a bunch of little bits of damage spread out (to help conserve spells from round to round).
Allowing a level one spell to grant CL touches as a free action is completely devastating, especially when combined with something like Elemental Touch. At CL 10 that's ten touches dealing 20d6+Str+extra in one round.
Sadly, our FAQ Thread was marked "Answered in the errata" which isn't very helpful. Does anyone know which errata they mean, or what part they're addressing?
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Ah... the "holding the charge" rules are under the Combat chapter now, and not the Magic chapter. This would be why I was confused - I thought that holding touch spells had simply been done away with as a game mechanic.
Even with that clarified, I think the "instantaneous" duration of this spell is still a poor choice. If chill touch is instantaneous, does that mean it can't be dispelled or dismissed? Not even a mage's disjunction can end a simple, first-level chill touch?
Does it mean that I can walk into an antimagic field and start using it, as long as I cast it before I enter?
Does it mean that I can cast it before the end of the day, go to bed without touching anything, and prepare my spells the next morning while still enjoying the benefit of a full spell list and an extra chill touch in my hand?
I am also curious as to what errata is being referenced, Grick.
If chill touch is instantaneous, does that mean it can't be dispelled or dismissed? Not even a mage's disjunction can end a simple, first-level chill touch?
Does it mean that I can walk into an antimagic field and start using it, as long as I cast it before I enter?
Touch Spells and Holding the Charge: "In most cases, if you don't discharge a touch spell on the round you cast it, you can hold the charge (postpone the discharge of the spell) indefinitely. You can make touch attacks round after round until the spell is discharged. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates."
I would say that since it's still a spell effect, a dispel/disjunction/antimagic would end the spell. This doesn't mesh well with the Instantaneous duration rules, but it's the most reasonable way to interpret it, I think.
Does it mean that I can cast it before the end of the day, go to bed without touching anything, and prepare my spells the next morning while still enjoying the benefit of a full spell list and an extra chill touch in my hand?
Yep. Assuming you have 8 hours between casting and prepping to open up that spell slot.
I am also curious as to what errata is being referenced, Grick.
The only mention of "touch" I can find in Update 1.3 (First to Fifth) is Laughing Touch (making it mind-affecting), target plant touched (for Blight) and Ghoul Touch (making it a poison effect). So I assume that whoever un-FAQ'd that thread meant that it will be answered in the next errata, whenever the sixth edition of the CRB happens.
Good luck holding that hand away from everything else while you're sleeping. Just wait for that insect to tickle your nose while you're just waking up ...
My understanding is that chill touch can be used with iterative attacks in the same round as well. Most of the long term touch spells have a line in them about "once per round as a standard action" or some such -- a line that chill touch has always lacked.
As such my understanding has always been that if you have 3 attacks a round (say from having a BAB of +11 or better) and a caster level that allows multiple touches from chill touch that you could full attack and get all three touch attacks off in a round.
This definitely doesn't work with Calcific Touch or Elemental Touch since those specifically limit you to once a round.
The reason chill touch does not contain a line that says, "as a standard action" or "once per turn" is it can be used once per attack that you posses. There for, at levels where you only have one attack you only get one touch per level. If you use more than one attack say in a full attack action where your bab grants more than one attack or you are using natural weapons(claw,claw,bite) you get to expend more charges per round than just one. Chill touch is per touch you are able to deliver. The held charge eratta in the combat section explains how this is capable of happening.
Holding the Charge: If you don't discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the charge indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren't considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack normally doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack. If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge.
This seems to clear up alot about the few spells writen like that.
My understanding is that chill touch can be used with iterative attacks in the same round as well.
There's no rule I can find stating that you can make iterative touch attacks. James Jacobs has said touches are not weapons, and iterative attacks are only for weapons (or weapon-like spells).
It's a spell, and should therefore function similarly to other touch spells like chill touch. Iterative attacks are SOLELY the province of weapons (and of spells that specifically work like weapons)—touch attacks and natural weapons do not work this way. Therefore, one touch per round with a produce flame, or one hurled flame per round.
He does say it probably wouldn't break the game to allow it, though.
This definitely doesn't work with Calcific Touch or Elemental Touch since those specifically limit you to once a round.
For Elemental Touch the duration is limited to 1 round/level, but it doesn't state you can only use it once per round. If you have iterative unarmed strikes, elemental touch would explicitly apply to each of them. Remember, Elemental Touch is not a Touch spell.
Calcific Touch on the other hand, is a touch spell, so in addition to the normal benefits/restrictions, it has a specific restriction of once per round.
If you use more than one attack say in a full attack action where your bab grants more than one attack or you are using natural weapons(claw,claw,bite) you get to expend more charges per round than just one.
While the rules still say you can use a natural attack to deliver a held charge, a recent FAQ mentioned, specifically, storing the charge in one hand. If this is actually the case, it breaks discharging via multiple natural attacks. If it was rather just a slip rather than an intentional change, then there's no reason for it not to still work with natural attacks, iterative strikes, etc, all independent of limb.
There's a (sadly neglected) FAQ request here if anyone is interested.
I refer you to the line "If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges". I would rule that as usable by all natural attacks. I have found no where (accept drawings by artis) that says "the magic is stored in your hand. There are a few spells that state that as part of their discription tho. Like elemental touch.
I refer you to the line "If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges". I would rule that as usable by all natural attacks. I have found no where (accept drawings by artis) that says "the magic is stored in your hand. There are a few spells that state that as part of their discription tho. Like elemental touch.
Chill Touch specifically states "A touch from your hand" in the spell though.
I have found no where (accept drawings by artis) that says "the magic is stored in your hand.
Official FAQ - Magus: Can a magus use spellstrike (page 10) to cast a touch spell, move, and make a melee attack with a weapon to deliver the touch spell, all in the same round?
"On a related topic, the magus touching his held weapon doesn’t count as “touching anything or anyone” when determining if he discharges the spell. A magus could even use the spellstrike ability, miss with his melee attack to deliver the spell, be disarmed by an opponent (or drop the weapon voluntarily, for whatever reason), and still be holding the charge in his hand, just like a normal spellcaster. Furthermore, the weaponless magus could pick up a weapon (even that same weapon) with that hand without automatically discharging the spell, and then attempt to use the weapon to deliver the spell. However, if the magus touches anything other than a weapon with that hand (such as retrieving a potion), that discharges the spell as normal."
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Even if you don't restrict it to only a hand, it still sets precedent for the charge being stored in a specific extremity. Meaning, if you hold the charge in your right hand (which has claws) you could discharge the spell by making one claw attack with your right hand. But your left hand claws can't, nor can your bite, or tail slap, or wing buffet. If a magus has a held charge and loses his weapon, he can't make a spellstrike with his armor spikes or the spiked gauntlet on his other hand.
Before that FAQ, it could safely be assumed that the charge is stored within the caster, to be deployed as chosen using the examples in the books. (with a touch, weapon via spellstrike, unarmed strike, or natural attack)
(my post formatting is getting all weird, bear with me)
There's a (sadly neglected) FAQ request here if anyone is interested.
I'll support you Sir Grick!
Just using the whole claw claw thing as an example of multiple attacks, your right bites don't count for that one. At a Min the only thing that really counts is bab for number of delivers of charges. All others, like using a secound hand; would be up to the gm.
Puting this out there too (multiple castings of elemental touch on different hands; or using the spell and the feat on different hands). What do you think?
Can't do multiple castings on different hands, casting a second spell while holding another causes the first to be dismissed.
If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates.
No casting shocking grasp, holding the charge, and then casting invisibility on yourself either !
Can't do multiple castings on different hands, casting a second spell while holding another causes the first to be dismissed.
Elemental Touch is not a touch spell. There is no charge to hold. It's Personal/You with a duration, much like Shield.
Ok, so elemental touch works more like Produce Flame than Shocking Grasp, got it.
So, this makes me wonder...
If I have a "gravewalker" archetype witch, which can deliver touch attacks at range via their poppet, can a witch deliver "chill touch" attacks round after round at range?
And if so, can the witch make full attacks at range, assuming he/she has high enough BAB or haste or some means of doing multiple touch attacks per round?
Even with that clarified, I think the "instantaneous" duration of this spell is still a poor choice.
The duration is instantaneous because the spell effect (the damage plus the possible ability damage) is instantaneous. If it said anything else, like, "one round per caster level", then that would mean the damage & ability damage would go away after a few rounds, which is just plain weird.
Instead, it's an instantaneous touch spell and follows all of the rules of such- except that it allows for multiple touches, which is an uncommon mechanic. It's two mechanics working together that don't usually mesh, but fortunately, it follows the rules for both. Changing the duration would just muddle things up unnecessarily.
Good idea, but I don't think so since the act of casting and delivering the touch spell in itself is a full round action. Therefor fogoing any additional attachs the spell may grant. There aslo doesn't seem to be the ability to hold the spell and then deliver it later that way.
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Yes, you may use all of the attacks against a single target, but you need to make all the attacks. That is, you get one attack as part of casting the spell, and subsequent attacks as per "holding the charge". You don't get all of the attacks as part of casting the spell.
It works a lot like "Produce Flame", except that you can't hurl Chill Touch and you get a set number of touch attacks rather than a duration.
Chill touch is also more fun with a rogues major magic talent:
great way to get some sneak attack damage, + some str drain on a target in.
Good idea, but I don't think so since the act of casting and delivering the touch spell in itself is a full round action. Therefor fogoing any additional attachs the spell may grant. There aslo doesn't seem to be the ability to hold the spell and then deliver it later that way.
Actually, delivering a touch spell is part of the spell's casting time. So if it's a standard action to cast the touch spell, you get a free touch attack as part of that standard action. (You can even cast the spell, move, and touch someone, all in one round.) Additional touches would require additional actions, however.
I'm not sure what you mean by your last sentence. Isn't holding the charge what this discussion is about in the first place?
You can deliver a touch spell as a free action the round you cast it allowing you to cast->move->touch in one round.
It is not however part of the standard action used to cast the spell.
In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target
-Flash
Yes yes yes but go read the pin cushion like action that the grave walker has.
Spell Poppet: Each gravewalker carries around a gristly, inanimate poppet stitched from human skin and stuffed with shards of bone, fingernails, and grave dirt. A gravewalker's spells come from the will of evil spirits residing in the poppet, and its ability to hold spells functions in a manner identical to the way a witch's spells are granted by her familiar. The gravewalker must commune with her poppet each day to prepare her spells and cannot prepare spells that are not stored in the poppet. This ability replaces familiar. The following familiar ability works differently for a gravewalker:
Deliver Touch Spells (Su): At 3rd level or higher, a gravewalker can use her poppet to deliver touch spells. After casting a touch spell, as a full-round action, the witch can designate a target and stab a pin into her poppet, delivering the spell as a ranged touch attack. The target must be within range of her aura of desecration ability (see below).
so not the normal touch spell fomula.
Yes yes yes but go read the pin cushion like action that the grave walker has.
Spell Poppet: Each gravewalker carries around a gristly, inanimate poppet stitched from human skin and stuffed with shards of bone, fingernails, and grave dirt. A gravewalker's spells come from the will of evil spirits residing in the poppet, and its ability to hold spells functions in a manner identical to the way a witch's spells are granted by her familiar. The gravewalker must commune with her poppet each day to prepare her spells and cannot prepare spells that are not stored in the poppet. This ability replaces familiar. The following familiar ability works differently for a gravewalker:Deliver Touch Spells (Su): At 3rd level or higher, a gravewalker can use her poppet to deliver touch spells. After casting a touch spell, as a full-round action, the witch can designate a target and stab a pin into her poppet, delivering the spell as a ranged touch attack. The target must be within range of her aura of desecration ability (see below).
so not the normal touch spell fomula.
No, not normal, but can the witch deliver multiple chill touch attacks through her poppet as you could by physically touching an enemy? Even if it's a full round action to do so, could a fourth level witch spend four rounds using full round actions to deliver chill touch attacks?
Hmm.... thinking about this, I'm not sure you'd want to though. You couldn't continue cackling during those rounds... But you could attack, then cackle, cackle (move and standard action) then chill touch attack, then cackle, cackle...
Hmm... probably better for more powerful one-shot save-or-die touch spell attacks....
well it say putting a pin in the doll as a completion and that it takes a full round to do all that. maybe the next round.