Taldor


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion

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LordOfThreshold wrote:
BLloyd607502 wrote:

Another thing to keep on the books is that unlike Cheliax, Taldor isn't, well, Evil.

It's TN, not LE, while there is exploitation its not as organized, shameless or constant, people can advance slowly and unlike Cheliax, where hell rules, the law is filled with loopholes and there's complete exploitation (See the background of that one Hellknight from Skulls & Shackles who's father got basically raped, anything involving Hells Rebels, or the fact that a Pitfiend has to tell the current ruler to calm down and stop being evil, now and then)
Taldor isn't The Big Bad Empire, Mwhahahahah, its a crumbling bastion, based on outdated rules, too proud to admit its problems. But its people can still be decent people, kind and generous, or cruel.
They're not constantly planning to conquer their neighbours, just now and then, as shown by the fact they get on better with the druids and fey than the NG Andoran do.
That means that people can play nobility from it without feeling that they're either not playing to the culture correctly, or going to be obliged to eat a kitten to advance, the nobility of Taldor might be decadent, but they're (Mostly) just arrogant and detatched, not actually evil.

It'd be so refreshing and interesting to see a fantasy empire that isn't evil and to work for one, help it rise again. Backing the good (or ambiguous) Queen and helping direct her first few years of rule could be fantastic.
Mentally, the only comparison I can think of for an AP in Taldor relating to the civil war is Dishonoured, both in tone (Good and bad people, ambiguous allies, having to choose if you're going to do the easy thing or the right thing and that deciding the fate of the land) and plot (Civil war, intrigue, probably a lot less sneaking around and assassinating people and more setting up Balls to avoid battle, or setting up battle to avoid the darn Balls, knowing that if you fail the land is going to slip into either the hands of exploiters or complete anarchy.)

And

...

If you want another inspiration from a Computer Game I suggest you look into Thief. Although a bit too steampunk for Taldor the game's atmosphere lends itself perfectly to that kind of background. Also the last Assassin's Creed set during the Victorian Era could be a good inspiration as well.


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BLloyd607502 wrote:
And the Worldwound was closed over WotR; Korvosa lost its king. Every AP starts with a bit of a change in the local status quo.

And yet most APs resolve in the preservation of the status quo-

Spoiler:
Karzoug doesn't roll over Varisia, Ileosa doesn't turn into the second coming of Sorshen, the Drow don't drop a large rock on Kyonin, Xotani doesn't turn Katapesh into a charred wasteland, Westcrown doesn't become a massive Infernal incursion, Ydersius doesn't kick off a serpentfolk renaissance of power, the Whispering Way fails to kick off their shindig, Xin does not recreate Thassilon, the Forgotten Pharaoh doesn't take over, the Storm Tyrant's plan fails.

Moreover, there is a world of difference from "the king is dead and his wife is a pain" and "this nation has been so totally converted from the existing material that you probably wouldn't recognize it."

Even Hell's Rebels kicks off with Barzillai changing things up above and beyond the Chelish norm- the implication being if Kintarg had just kept being Cheliax as usual, that AP wouldn't go down.

There's "changing the status quo" and then there's "entirely rewriting the existing material."

Even Wrath of the Righteous (one of the biggest changes to the setting an AP has ever enabled) presumes what is more or less business as usual for Mendev and the Worldwound as presented- the demons are making a move, and the faltering crusade does precisely what faltering crusades do, until the heroes find the magical super-special McGuffin to alter the situation.

What has been proposed in this thread for Taldor is rewriting things before the PCs even hit the ground- which, as the folks in charge lack consensus on just what they want to do with the place, is about as likely as my waking up tomorrow and curing cancer. It's a fringe possibility, and it'd be awesome, but I wouldn't bet a bent penny on its likelihood.

Now.... I have a link to read. BE BACK LATER!


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Cole Deschain wrote:
BLloyd607502 wrote:
And the Worldwound was closed over WotR; Korvosa lost its king. Every AP starts with a bit of a change in the local status quo.

And yet most APs resolve in the preservation of the status quo- ** spoiler omitted **

Moreover, there is a world of difference from "the king is dead and his wife is a pain" and "this nation has been so totally converted from the existing material that you probably wouldn't recognize it."

Even Hell's Rebels kicks off with Barzillai changing things up above and beyond the Chelish norm- the implication being if Kintarg had just kept being Cheliax as usual, that AP wouldn't go down.

There's "changing the status quo" and then there's "entirely rewriting the existing material."

Even Wrath of the Righteous (one of the biggest changes to the setting an AP has ever enabled) presumes what is more or less business as usual for Mendev and the Worldwound as presented- the demons are making a move, and the faltering crusade does precisely what faltering crusades do, until the heroes find the magical super-special McGuffin to alter the situation.

What has been proposed in this thread for Taldor is rewriting things before the PCs even hit the ground- which, as the folks in charge lack consensus on just what they want to do with the place, is about as likely as my waking up tomorrow and curing cancer. It's a fringe possibility, and it'd be awesome, but I wouldn't bet a bent penny on its likelihood.

Now.... I have a link to read. BE BACK LATER!

As before you greatly exagerate in order to make the point of not wanting to develop Taldor. No one is asking for a complete rewrite of the material but about building upon the fundations already in place, adding inspirations that fit the taldan scenario is certainly not a complete change of scenery, but rather its evolution (something that happened with most regions that were further developed) despite what you like to believe.

As for the APs you don't even have a point there: APs don't change the status quo, they give DMs and players a POSSIBLE WHAT IF SCENARIO (several actually considering the "continuing the campaign" options).

WotR:
Taking this AP as an example, it doesn't change the status quo in any way unless IN YOUR GAME you choose to play it. The inner sea region has a worldwound and a crusader nation right on its doorstep, this can change ONLY if you play WotR, period, unlike the Forgotten Realms the game world doesn't evolve year after year implementing scenarios and adventures, so you can very well have an AP about trying to change Taldor's fate of decadence and Taldor will still be an "empire in decline" in the base setting


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As for other possible inspirations for a more developed Taldor I think the Empire as presented in the Wharhammer Fantasy Roleplay Adventure "The Enemy Within" could be an excellent inspiration for how things might work in Taldor. The "enemy within" idea could even be a greta idea for a Taldan AP.
Taldor should not be a little lighter than the Empire is but social interactions and division between classes should be pretty similar.


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Rogar Valertis wrote:
despite what you like to believe.

You have no idea what I want to believe.

I am responding to the words of others. Words like "it wouldn't be outrageous for them to make Taldor slightly more palatable or present it in a better light in order to make it the protagonist in any AP."

While opinion is divided about the scope of changes required to make that happen, there is a consensus of sorts that as things stand, it's not gonna work.

Quote:
As for the APs you don't even have a point...

I do when I'm addressing the post I'm quoting.

If you're trying to fit it into a wider worldview, it's not going to fit.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Well, the APs do assume massive changes to the setting if the PCs LOSE.

What if the PCs are fighting to preserve Taldor's decadence / status quo? The Bad Guy would be the one to restore its power if he were to win.


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Yakman wrote:

Well, the APs do assume massive changes to the setting if the PCs LOSE.

What if the PCs are fighting to preserve Taldor's decadence / status quo? The Bad Guy would be the one to restore its power if he were to win.

Actually a good idea for a Taldan AP is based on the themes of dissolution and (possibly) rebirth of an empire. Taldor has been presented as a nation on the brink of collapsing on itself, a Taldan AP makes that happen and gives the PCs a chance to decide the fate of a once powerful and mighty empire. The "bad guy" should not be the crown prince but rather an external agency hastening Taldor's fall for its own unscrutable and nefarious purpose (they target Taldor for this both because of its significance in the status quo of Inner Sea region and because it's way easier to topple Taldor and have chaos and war spread to the whole region than it is doing the same anywhere else).

Taldan AP suggestion:
Sativan is assassinated, Quadira invades, Galt incites a peasant revolt, a few corrupt noble houses invite Cheliax troops on Taldan soil for certain agreements stipulated in teh past and Andoran reacts since it cannot have chelish troops both east and west. This is actually part of a larger conspiracy and all these events have been carefully orchestrated by a cabal of very powerful NPCs who want to cause a giant conflict destabilizing the whole Inner Sea region in the process. Almost everything works as planned but for the PCs, who more or less by chance save Eutropia before she can be kidnapped. Then they have to choose what to do with Taldor also considering that saving Eutropia also made them targets

Such an AP would have political intrigue, mass combat, kingdom building as strong elements. And, being an AP none of this would truly reflect on the canonical version of Golarion, but would give players and GMs just another possible scenario of its evolution.

Sovereign Court

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I would love an AP set in Taldor. I trust the developers to do right by the country.


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TALDAN ADVENTURE IDEAS:

1. THE ONCE AND FUTURE KING: A charismatic peasant leader claiming to be Aroden Reborn has begun using his (lawful) cult to infiltrate the courts of Taldor in order to route out corruption and bring back the glory days of the Taldan Empire. The PCS are sent to find him and discover his true motives and how he is able to influence so many or whether he is simply another false prophet.

2. THE SECRET SIX aka TAKEN IN TALDOR: To weaken its old enemy, Qadira has sent SIX Master assassins to kill key members of Taldan society.
Each part of the Adventure Path is the hunt for a particular Qadiran assassin and each assassin has...
a very particular set of skills. Skills they have acquired over very long careers.
Skills that make them a nightmare for Taldans like you!

3. THE EMPIRE AWAKENS: A group of gnomish Taldan rogues have uncovered a buried "Time Gate" and went far back in time to steal valuable treasures from the ancient past when Taldor was at the height of its power,
but they have uncovered more than they bargained for...The Time Gate was a weapon of war, used during the Shining Crusade to combat the necromancer Tar-Baphon and this lost artifact has begun to resurrect a massive Taldan army of the past to enforce their “Imperial Crusade” on the present.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Rogar Valertis wrote:
Yakman wrote:

Well, the APs do assume massive changes to the setting if the PCs LOSE.

What if the PCs are fighting to preserve Taldor's decadence / status quo? The Bad Guy would be the one to restore its power if he were to win.

Actually a good idea for a Taldan AP is based on the themes of dissolution and (possibly) rebirth of an empire. Taldor has been presented as a nation on the brink of collapsing on itself, a Taldan AP makes that happen and gives the PCs a chance to decide the fate of a once powerful and mighty empire. The "bad guy" should not be the crown prince but rather an external agency hastening Taldor's fall for its own unscrutable and nefarious purpose (they target Taldor for this both because of its significance in the status quo of Inner Sea region and because it's way easier to topple Taldor and have chaos and war spread to the whole region than it is doing the same anywhere else).

** spoiler omitted **

Such an AP would have political intrigue, mass combat, kingdom building as strong elements. And, being an AP none of this would truly reflect on the canonical version of Golarion, but would give players and GMs just another possible scenario of its evolution.

WELL... what we've seen is that APs (or some version of them) exist in the timeline. Rise happened, Curse happened, etc.

That being said, at the end of a Taldor AP, I should think that things in that fractious realm should return to the status quo. The villain (whether it be a would-be Qadiran invader, an ambitious flumph-tainted noble, or the Giant Space Hamster of Ill-Omen) are the disruptors. Overwhelmingly, PCs are fighting to keep the canon of the Inner Sea World Guide intact.


Cole Deschain wrote:
Rogar Valertis wrote:
despite what you like to believe.

You have no idea what I want to believe.

I am responding to the words of others. Words like "it wouldn't be outrageous for them to make Taldor slightly more palatable or present it in a better light in order to make it the protagonist in any AP."

While opinion is divided about the scope of changes required to make that happen, there is a consensus of sorts that as things stand, it's not gonna work.

Quote:
As for the APs you don't even have a point...

I do when I'm addressing the post I'm quoting.

If you're trying to fit it into a wider worldview, it's not going to fit.

>making Taldor more palatable

You say that's impossible or would make Taldor unrecognizable, but it hasn't stopped Paizo so far in doing just that. They've butchered large parts of what little we know about Taldor, a few more swipes with a pen won't be that difficult. And you already said that whether Tador was the good guy or bad guy wasn't really the issue, it was the lack of interest. We're already pointed out that a lack of interest is subjective and that lack may largely be due to a lack of information.

Presenting Taldor as the good guys is as easy as pointing the players at the bad guys. It could be an external enemy, an internal conspiracy or a rival that gets introduced to the players through the AP. The players don't always have to side with the Noble Bright Good Guys, they can side with the Neutral Party if their goals are aligned.

Your so-called consensus is far from universal among us.

>Yakman
If you don't think the whole face of Avistan would be changed by the players closing the Worldwound, I think you are treating it as if it exists inside a vacuum. Don't underestimate the ipact that could have. The Continuing the Campaign article alone was chock-full of ideas and world shaking repercussions. The players alone, with twenty levels and ten mythic tiers, would be the single biggest event on Golarion since Aroden died. The Worldwound closing would also change Avistan greatly. A Taldor game, while bringing about big changes, would be on a far lesser scale that what Paizo has already demonstrated they are willing to make room in Golarion for.

If turning the path of Taldor around is too outrageous I don't ever expect we'll get a Galt AP that matters or an AP where the players face a foe like Arazni or The Whispering Tyrant. Try not to tie the APs to low expectations or treat Golarion like unchangeable gospel.

If you don't want a Taldor AP, fine, but I don't know why people are campaigning so hard against it.


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Deanmail wrote:

TALDAN ADVENTURE IDEAS:

1. THE ONCE AND FUTURE KING: A charismatic peasant leader claiming to be Aroden Reborn has begun using his (lawful) cult to infiltrate the courts of Taldor in order to route out corruption and bring back the glory days of the Taldan Empire. The PCS are sent to find him and discover his true motives and how he is able to influence so many or whether he is simply another false prophet.

2. THE SECRET SIX aka TAKEN IN TALDOR: To weaken its old enemy, Qadira has sent SIX Master assassins to kill key members of Taldan society.
Each part of the Adventure Path is the hunt for a particular Qadiran assassin and each assassin has...
a very particular set of skills. Skills they have acquired over very long careers.
Skills that make them a nightmare for Taldans like you!

3. THE EMPIRE AWAKENS: A group of gnomish Taldan rogues have uncovered a buried "Time Gate" and went far back in time to steal valuable treasures from the ancient past when Taldor was at the height of its power,
but they have uncovered more than they bargained for...The Time Gate was a weapon of war, used during the Shining Crusade to combat the necromancer Tar-Baphon and this lost artifact has begun to resurrect a massive Taldan army of the past to enforce their “Imperial Crusade” on the present.

4. THE FINAL ARMY OF EXPLORATION

In a desperate bid to grasp old glory and gain much needed popularity, Prince Stavian has ordered the creation of a Final Grand Army of Exploration and is pointing it right straight into the heart of Iobaria (alternatively, north to reclaim Galt and claim the Stolen Lands). The players and a cabal of desperate nobles, sensing Taldor's final gasps for breath, set about to sabotage the effort and prevent the military from undertaking such a foolish and suicidal endeavor. The attempts are stymied though by a strange cult of Nyarlathotep who seems oddly fervent that the Army is successful.


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Right, 6 book set up is a-go.

Book 1: A Crown of Fire & Iron -

Spoiler:
Background for the game is that for the last 6 months, Princess Eutropia has been leading the nation in her father's stead as Regent in Situ, after he was declared an Invalid and incapable of ruling actively due to illness. Rumors abound about his failing health.
Game begins not with a Coronation but with a traditional Taldane party, sort of a once a year summer fete situation where all the nobility are invited to come and be reminded that they do in fact, PCs could be guards, lesser members of the nobility, Knights or servants working within the Palace (Permanent or hired on temporarily to assist with crafting specific items for the party). A fair number of nobles haven’t arrived yet and some it seems aren’t planning to turn up at all in protest of a woman basically being on the throne. The main rumor being that the party is a cover for Princess Eutropia possibly finding a husband in order to avoid the upcoming succession crisis.
1st level involves dealing with social intrigue and the build up to the party, feasting, getting to know the movers and shakers, hunting Stags (And wolves) and being involved in Tournaments for small tokens, acting as catspaws in petty politics and so on, getting a feel for Taldane culture with some courtly work where a few peasants can bring in their grievances and the PCs have a chance to impress by appearing virtuous and helping with their troubles before the court, including a chance to deal with a few abuses by other lesser nobility to show that Taldor isn’t unnecessarily evil to the Unbearded (And to foreshadow a few of the villains)
Eventually after a few days the party begins to get underway, with the peasants invited in during the day (Only the outer courtyards) and the gates locked at night so the plebs can be kept out and the nobility can get down to really partying hard. Various gifts are both given and accepted by the Royal household, ect, ect, including a troupe of clockwork musicians who can play the most beautiful music.
On the night of the Summer Solstice the shorted night of the year the Castle basically has a Lock in, a true bacchanal and Masquerade, in the style of Masque of the Red Death.
As things start to get out of hand and people disappear off into various shady corners to indulge in their personal vices, the party turns into a bloodbath, starting with the apparent assassination of the Princess herself by way of bunderbuss, the clockwork inventions turning on the crowd revealing their instruments double as weapons (Including muskets), leaving the PCs trapped with the wounded in the sealed castle as various other presents are revealed to be clockwork creatures, hounds for hunting the stragglers being the most important, cunningly made in parts to be put together on the grounds.
Great chance to show the better side of the Taldorian nobility after the hedonism of the party, a knight who was bothering a serving girl (Or bullying a serving lad) fights and dies without hesitation to protect her and others, a pair of catty noblewomen who were causing each other as much trouble as possible put aside their differences to help carry the wounded, that sort of thing.
The PCs end up leading a group of wounded, guards and servants to fight their way out past the creatures avoiding the main dance hall where the unit is being constructed, gathering other survivors and attempting to find an escape, culminating in a roof top battle with a pair of clockwork dancers/soldiers survivors of the night escape down the wall and down into the gardens. Once they are free of the castle limits one of the servant girls reveals herself to be the Princess, having opted to go to the ball as her handmaiden, while the handmaiden went as her in what was meant to be a clever joke. The PCs are then sent under the castle by the Princess with the remains of the Royal guard to knock out the supports under the main dance hall before the clockwork warriors can finish the rebuilding of a clockwork dragon.
After doing so, the PCs are proclaimed bearded, as news comes to the Castle of clockwork leviathans dragging themselves onto the land in the harbour, creating a beach-head for an army coming down the other side of the river.
Through hook or crook, or exposition (Good chance for a spymaster type ally), the PCs learn that one of the North East Vassals has rebelled, ruler of a holding just east of the World’s Edge Mountains, just in time for the Oppara Navy to be roused.

Book 2: A Lion’s Pride -

Spoiler:
Big punch up between the Taldor Navy and the Leviathans starts the proceedings, showing just how technologically backwards Taldor is as the Navy is decimated, but manages to block the harbour and upstream with their own shattered boats. PCs are called upon to kill the one remaining trapped Leviathan by dropping several of the broken boats onto its body, the rest having fled.
Princess sends the various nobles off by horse to quickly gather their knights from the nearest holdings so they can head North-East together and take battle to the rebelling Lord by pushing up the eastern front of the World’s Edge Mountains, through Porthmos Gap and the various valleys within.
PCs are sent to the holdings of those Lords that died, with orders to gather any forces they can and quickly discover that it isn’t just a single Lord, but a conspiracy that stretches down the eastern edge of Taldor as far as the Border Wood, troops marching into villages, PCs having to put down petty Noblemen and would-be demagogues as they travel south, then up the north east to Sardis (And a chance to gain a penal unit), making difficult moral choices the entire way on if they stick to tradition and gain the support of the nobility, uplift the peasantry to gain more footsoldiers, or try to compromise between the two, coming to a head at Stavian’s Hold where they are expected to rally the local troops and meet up with the armies to the West, only to find that the current leader of the Phalanx is determined to remain neutral having been promised his own holding if he maintains it, while an ambassador from the ‘Buckshot Prince’ arms his troops with muskets as well as bows and spears as a sign of good faith.
Armed with their new dragoons the PCs bring their army west to join the main forces, the Grand Marshal, a staunch traditionalist who believes in doing things by the book, they head up the Gap and into the valleys beyond, fighting patrols of Clockwork, mercenaries and fey as they go, discovering more about the enemy forces as they do, that they contain Forumite sell swords, Phalanx of Fey who mirror and mock the Taldorian style and the like, leading to a pitched battle with the Self-Proclaimed King of Taldors Army.
Which, naturally is an ambush, as the knights charge down the hillside straight into cannonfire. Charge of the Light Brigade style. With the Grand Marshal dead at the head of the spear point the remaining troops (Including their own) fall back into the PCs hands as they fighting withdrawal over one hundred miles to Dalaston, or Stavian’s Hold, before holding out until relief comes to assist them, forcing a Stalemate near the headwater of the River Porthmos.

Book 3: The Cold Iron Oath -

Spoiler:
Now fully trusted by the Queen, the PCs are sent Westwards, to the Verduran Forest, an army needs supplies and with the muskets on the field the Taldorian army needs both strong shields and numberless arrows, the PCs are sent to renegotiate the number of trees that can be felled with the Wildwood Lodge and to find out if they can, why the fey are assisting the Prince.
What they find within is that the forces of Andoran (Or at least, the Lumber Consortium) have crossed the border and are taking advantage of their civil war, wolves circling the herd and that the Wildwood Lodge is locked in its own small, vicious war as the fey of the area begin to question if Taldor is a viable ally, if it can’t protect them. This attitude is of course being stoked by the minions of a Gunslinger Vilderavn, known as the Buckshot Prince, who has joined the would-be King for his own reasons (Those reasons being that Taldor will crumble under the force of civil war and he can laugh when it happens)
Eventually the PCs discover the ‘Andoran’ forces are actually a group of sell swords working under the enemy, who are planning to rile up the local fey and push an attack against Andoran civilians to make the war even worse. Hiding under the guise of being Gorumites, the Szuriel cultist warriors are ravaging the forest and eventually hoping to provoke a glorious 3 way war if they can get Galt involved. Hints of the Origins of the Clockwork army come into play as the PCs find one of the masters of the terror force uses not just blackpowder weapons, but fiendish Clockwork constructs.
After reassuring both the druids and a force of Eagle Knights that have come to see what on earth is going on, the PCs are joined by locals from the various towns/logging camps within the forest, a smattering of Fey (Blackwood Satyrs maybe?) and the Druid Cabal, before they receive a report from the east that the Taldoran army has seriously underestimated the capabilities of an army that’s immune to fatigue or cold and that a good chunk of them have crossed the World’s Edge Mountains and are flanking down towards Maheto, a core of Taldorian Industry.
If the Clockwork Craftsmen of the Would-be King get their hands on the raw materials of Maheto and the nearby mines at Dalaston, then the Kingdom is lost.
But, the PCs now have their hands on not just the plans for the Gunpowder weapons the enemy uses, but some of their simplest clockwork creatures, including clockwork knights, steeds and giants.

Book 4: Stoking the Fires of War -

Spoiler:
Run as a sort of reverse dungeon crawl, the PCs are forced to claim Marshal law over the city of Maheto, heaving with refugees from the north and overrun with fear, building up its defenses, making sure food goes around, refurbish the smithies of the city into powder factories and gun forges and then hold tight, as the local dwarven population works around the clock to perfect not just the defenses of the city, but also clockwork soldiers and other items that can counteract the enemy forces. Through their actions the PCs can define the new technology the Taldorian army has access to from here on and how it operates. Be it running a clockwork steed riding ‘flying platoon’ of dragoons to harry the enemy and whittle them down, heavy shielded Hussars with Blackwood Lances, tipped with explosives, Massed Musket Militia or drawing back into the mountain and creating an actual dungeon amongst the undercity the dwarves live in, for the enemy to throw their troops against, as well as some possible ‘dungeon crawling’ by doing raids on enemy supply wagons and finding bits and pieces to improve their army amongst the many and inventive weapons brought by the Szurielians.
Initial parlay with the Would-Be King, who is personally leading his forces reveals a striking similarity to the Princess and with some investigation and work, the PCs can discover that the Rebel Lord is in fact not planning to place himself on the throne if the Princess was to step back, instead he backs the claim of an Unbearded Watchmaker, the inventor of the Clockwork soldiers who claims to be the true King by right of blood. Who is revealed to be the Fitz/Bastard son of Stavian III, denied his birthright by his position as an Unbearded, backed by the Buckshot Prince as well as a cult of Szuriel (Lead by the Ero-daemon that first convinced the Clockwork Emperor to pursue his heritage) and funded by Qadira, with all its endless flow of gold, he’s convinced he can claim Taldor and then, when Qadira inevitably attacks, push them back with the army they funded. By this point it should be obvious to the PCs that such a ‘leader’ would be removed quickly enough, having no backing in politics and that as soon as he’s no longer useful, the Fey, Daemons and Qadira will turn on him, sending the empire sliding into oblivion.
Maheto becomes the turning point of the war, as the Lords regain some faith in the Princess and her choice in putting the PCs in charge rather than a good, honest blue-blooded leader bred for war and in holding the line the PCs avoid the balkanization of Taldor as others make a grab for the throne.
Attempts on the town range from salting the nearby earth, to week long sieges to assassination attempts on the PCs, until finally the invading army is forced back by the onset of winter, while Clockwork soldiers don’t need to eat, the rest of the army do and the efforts of the Wildwood Lodge using hit and run tactics have left their logistics lines devastated.

Book 5: Last Stand of the Buckshot Prince -

Spoiler:
With their new, technologically updated army the PCs are ready to start fighting back, unfortunately winter has set in and travel becomes more difficult as the PCs are called back to the Princess to be Knighted as heroes of the Empire, exemplars of battle and so on and so forth, bringing them back into the Sphere of intrigue for the first half of the book as they deal with the half-hearted threats of lesser nobles and broker supplies, weapons and men for their army.
Unfortunately this doesn’t last as long as it should, when the Buckshot Prince leads a daring raid upon the Forward base and kidnaps the Princess with his own unknown intentions for her.
Forced to react without chance to gather their forces, the PCs can only take a small group westwards, brute-forcing their way through an ambush at Temple Canyon and onwards over the Tandak Plains to the Blackswamps of Cassomir, where the the Vildravn plans to trade the Princess to the Derro, who will break her as they broke her father and thus ruin the moral backbone of the loyalists.
When the PCs ruin this plan, the Buckshot Prince pushes onwards, to the bombed out remains of Grayguard Castle, where his fey forces have overgrown the ruins in the image of the first world and where he makes his final stand.
Chance of course comes at the end of the book, if any of the PCs have grown close to her (Or are convenient), for a marriage with the Princess, thus removing the succession problem.

Book 6: The Watchmakers Empire -

Spoiler:
With his Fey allies fleeing, his lesser lords defeated, the Taldorian army now on an even footing almost and spring approaching the Watchmaker turns to ever more desperate measures, razing villages one after another behind him in his retreat up the World’s Edge Mountain line. PCs get to face off against his greatest clockwork horrors as well as powerful Daemons of war and are forced to push through the Valley of Azlant to cut off his retreating army.
In his desperation he turns to his last remaining ally, the Szurielian cultists and they offer a solution.
And so begins a ritual to call up the Dustbringer from Caina, for one last, horrific weapon, a Clockwork Goliath with a micro version of the Dustbringer as its main weapon, capable of grinding entire armies into dust. If he cannot be crowned master of Taldor, then let Taldor be lost to the ages.
This information comes by way of the PCs once enemy, defected to join them now that his previous lord intends not to rule Taldor, but destroy it.
Cue massive battle in the Thousand Relics Pass, followed by climax at Aroden’s Eye, which is both a thin point between the planes as well as now a magnificent clockwork workshop and fortress, filled with fiendish clockwork, lethal traps and eventually the Clockwork Augmented King-Pretender, backed by the forces of Abaddon’s Mistress of War and his half-finished golem.
Taldor has survived and been given a wake up call, as through the war it wasn’t the nobility that led the charge, but the common man, armed with musket and Taldorian bravery rather than Horse and Bred-in Arrogance, it was innovation rather than tradition that saved them and it was their traditions that gave rise to the conquerors claim to begin with and almost being accepting of their new Queen.
The PCs are now members of the Royal inner circle as the coronation finally gets underway and in their future lies the change of Qaria invading, or Szuriel’s cultists coming back for round two, or possibly even the Pale Stranger of the Buckshot Prince and the Queen of the Court of Ether, enraged by the death of her (One time) lover.
But, at least the Empire now has a glorious future to earn, rather than the memory of glory.

How's that?

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber
LordOfThreshold wrote:

4. THE FINAL ARMY OF EXPLORATION

In a desperate bid to grasp old glory and gain much needed popularity, Prince Stavian has ordered the creation of a Final Grand Army of Exploration and is pointing it right straight into the heart of Iobaria (alternatively, north to reclaim Galt and claim the Stolen Lands). The players and a cabal of desperate nobles, sensing Taldor's final gasps for breath, set about to sabotage the effort and prevent the military from undertaking such a foolish and suicidal endeavor. The attempts are stymied though by a strange cult of Nyarlathotep who seems oddly fervent that the Army is successful.

I don't hate this. The Armies of Exploration were one of my favorite parts of Golarion history. I like that the AP doesn't paint it as a Good Idea, either.


BLloyd607502 wrote:

Right, 6 book set up is a-go.

Book 1: A Crown of Fire & Iron - ** spoiler omitted **...

This sounds like a good campaign. Not outstandingly awesome, but it'd be more than a sure interest catch for me.


Tuvarkz wrote:
BLloyd607502 wrote:

Right, 6 book set up is a-go.

Book 1: A Crown of Fire & Iron - ** spoiler omitted **...

This sounds like a good campaign. Not outstandingly awesome, but it'd be more than a sure interest catch for me.

It does need some honing, I just sort of knocked that out off the cuff in the last hour or so so I'll admit its the roughest of a rough synopsis.

What do you think could improve it?


BLloyd607502 wrote:
Tuvarkz wrote:
BLloyd607502 wrote:

Right, 6 book set up is a-go.

Book 1: A Crown of Fire & Iron - ** spoiler omitted **...

This sounds like a good campaign. Not outstandingly awesome, but it'd be more than a sure interest catch for me.

It does need some honing, I just sort of knocked that out off the cuff in the last hour or so so I'll admit its the roughest of a rough synopsis.

What do you think could improve it?

When I say it's not outstandingly awesome, I don't mean it has any truly glaring flaws that limit it, but I mean that it isn't really a "unique and one-of-a-kind" story, in the same way an exotic dish is outstanding, but it doesn't make homemade food any less tasty by comparison. (Of course, with the people I generally play with and the characters they tend to make it seems like it'd be a great ride).


BLloyd607502 wrote:
Tuvarkz wrote:
BLloyd607502 wrote:

Right, 6 book set up is a-go.

Book 1: A Crown of Fire & Iron - ** spoiler omitted **...

This sounds like a good campaign. Not outstandingly awesome, but it'd be more than a sure interest catch for me.

It does need some honing, I just sort of knocked that out off the cuff in the last hour or so so I'll admit its the roughest of a rough synopsis.

What do you think could improve it?

I think it's a great way to differentiate a Taldan adventure from a Cheliaxian one. People can claim you can set any story from Taldor and do it in Cheliax better, but you would never see the type of sacrifice and nobility from the Chelaxians that you would expect from a Taldan. They are very different people and the Taldan love of charity is a strong motivator for this type of AP.


Kalindlara wrote:
LordOfThreshold wrote:

4. THE FINAL ARMY OF EXPLORATION

In a desperate bid to grasp old glory and gain much needed popularity, Prince Stavian has ordered the creation of a Final Grand Army of Exploration and is pointing it right straight into the heart of Iobaria (alternatively, north to reclaim Galt and claim the Stolen Lands). The players and a cabal of desperate nobles, sensing Taldor's final gasps for breath, set about to sabotage the effort and prevent the military from undertaking such a foolish and suicidal endeavor. The attempts are stymied though by a strange cult of Nyarlathotep who seems oddly fervent that the Army is successful.
I don't hate this. The Armies of Exploration were one of my favorite parts of Golarion history. I like that the AP doesn't paint it as a Good Idea, either.

I think even a passing glance at the Armies and their history show that they were a Bad Idea. They may have led to a great deal of prosperity in the short term, but they eventually became a extravagant waste of funds and lives when such effort would be better spent in many other places of Avistan (Belkazen, Mendev, The Worldwound, Galt, Qadira).

Also, giving a Grond-sized cannon to DemonGorilla-Grod is also a Bad Idea.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
LordOfThreshold wrote:
Your so-called consensus is far from universal among us.

Is it? You just said "butchered large parts of what little we know about Taldor." So you MISS the Beared business? You think the religious persecution of Sarenrae's worshipers was somehow integral to Taldor's core identity?

Don't get irritable just because my steady opposition has forced the pro-Taldor case to be better-articulated and better-supported over the past few pages.

We've gone from, "Let's do Taldor because Taldor is Important," to "let's do Taldor because these things about Taldor make it cool and interesting and we want to know more."

The case is stronger. Almost strong enough to get me onboard, and I'm a notoriously stubborn cuss.

You're welcome.


Cole Deschain wrote:
LordOfThreshold wrote:
Your so-called consensus is far from universal among us.

Is it? You just said "butchered large parts of what little we know about Taldor." So you MISS the Beared business? You think the religious persecution of Sarenrae's worshipers was somehow integral to Taldor's core identity?

Don't get irritable just because my steady opposition has forced the pro-Taldor case to be better-articulated and better-supported over the past few pages.

We've gone from, "Let's do Taldor because Taldor is Important," to "let's do Taldor because these things about Taldor make it cool and interesting and we want to know more."

The case is stronger. Almost strong enough to get me onboard, and I'm a notoriously stubborn cuss.

You're welcome.

Yes, I do miss the Bearded system. It was a great and hilarious way to illustrate just how obsessed with appearances the upper class was and how isolated and cast out the lower class were. The fact there are laws about who can wear facial hair and how they wear it was the best example we had that Taldor had so many bogus and redundant hereditary rights, the whole system would be liable to collapse under it's own weight.

If it was still part of Taldor, I would gleefully create my own system of what type of facial hair matches with your rights and privileges from your noble title.
That guy has a goatee and that man has a soul patch, but THAT guy has both, so he's got the most face accessories, so he's at least a Paracount!.

The persecution of Sarenrae, while not integral, was another quirk of Taldor, one that made sense. It's not TOTALLY INSANE to outlaw the most popular religion of your primary national rival, even if it is a Good religion. To the Taldanese, it represents everything Qadira and that means it is BAD. Also, it had more to do with the Dawnflower, who are not nice people, than Sarenrae herself, a sign that the Cult was giving the faith at large a bad name for their provocative actions. It would be a like a teetotaler being vehemently against the faith of Cayden Calian because he promotes the 'evils' of drink, which makes men abusers of women and prone to violence. It was something that separated Taldor from the rest of Avistan and demonstrated that these are not the Bad Guys, but they're far from the Good Guys either.

Considering you were being, as you admit, a 'stubborn cuss' who never added a single idea or positive addition to the exploration of Taldor lore, with your somewhat obstructionist 'just play in Cheliax' attitude, I think the thread owes more to the people who have expressed interest and moved the discussion forward more than either of us.

That's all I'll say on that. I would like to see what other people have to say about Taldor and not cause anything that could get the thread monitored.


Tuvarkz wrote:


When I say it's not outstandingly awesome, I don't mean it has any truly glaring flaws that limit it, but I mean that it isn't really a "unique and one-of-a-kind" story, in the same way an exotic dish is outstanding, but it doesn't make homemade food any less tasty by comparison. (Of course, with the people I generally play with and the characters they tend to make it seems like it'd be a great ride).

I did think of drawing a fair bit on British history for book 4 and the historic conflicts between the mining communities and the upper class as a good source of ideas and to air/show the Taldane class divide, but being Welsh I thought that'd probably be lost on a lot of people.

Having to deal with a miners strike, led by people who actually want to join the Clockwork Revolution (After all, its an Unbearded revolution, viva the worker!), having to face off against a fantasy version of the Scotch Cattle and protecting their own allies from a group who are hunting Blacklegs and the like, utterly oblivious to the greater political implications of their short lived revolution succeeding could put a great underline under the fact that tearing down society for personal (Or even gain for you and yours) isn't always going to mean you're in the right, just because you're the underdog and that the Working class can be the enemy of the working class as well.
After all, when you push someone down a mining shaft because they're continuing to work because they need to feed their children and you're striking for political reasons, you're not a good person.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7pnRgBan7c
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotch_Cattle

But, yeah, that'd probably be too Welsh in tone and theme.

Little things like that to fine tune on it, more, scenes and themes that're unique over the plot, I wasn't sure about throwing the Dustbringer in there either, having him be more morally in the right could really be satisfying for some groups, a good man manipulated by devious forces who you have to stop because you have no other choice.
First chance for a CG BBEG.


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Just in case the powers that be actually look at these things and take stock of the opinions, I thought I'd at least express mine to say I REALLY think we need more information, an AP, and/or a new source book for Taldor.

I could go into greater detail about it, but LordOfThreshold has nailed it completely. Every one of his responses I agree with entirely.

Even with as little information as we have for Taldor, it is hands down my favorite country. I've often wondered why that is and then Rogar's post hit it precisely. Taldor reminds me of The Empire from Warhammer Fantasy RPG, which is a game I ran for many many years. Morally gray is my favorite type of style, which fits to the gritty dark play of WHFRP. I think Taldor screams for this style of play, albeit on a higher fantasy setting.

Two of our campaigns have been set or mostly set in the land of Taldor and it's played out with more of a Machiavelli flare to it. Count me as one of those that thinks Cheliax as boring, but different strokes, right?


The Ulfen Guard is all the evidence I need to see Taldor as Byzantium.


For me the greatest part of Taldor is its past and any AP or module that played that up would attract me. Whether through haunts or illusion or some kind of time travel adventures that have the PCs take part at key events during the start of Taldor, the Armies of Exploration, the departure of the hierarchy of Aroden, the loss of the colonies, would be really cool. Maybe it would wrap up with some kind of potential to change Taldor from its eternal stagnation and decline, not by bringing back to a continent spanning empire, but some other future.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Pawns Subscriber

Oh, the underground catacombs and cathedrals that must exist under Taldor! There's probably no room left for natural cave and rock formations under Taldor; it's probably all worked granite/marble grand halls, untold vaults that make Mammon secretly jealous. Founded in -1281 AR, the campaign now stands at 4716 DR... that's 5997 years of history right?

Our modern civilization is about the same age (old testament starts with Creation and Garden of Eden back in -4000 right? so about 6000 years of history, comparable in scale to Taldor's)

How many empires have crumbled in our Earth's last 6000 years? in comparison, Taldor endured this entire, unbelievably large timeline so far. Sure it's always described as "in decline" but in reference to what? 4000 year old liches who reminisce about the good old days? TALDOR IS 6000 YEARS OLD FOR CRYING OUT LOUD! It's bound to have a few potholes and a few pressing infrastructure rejuvenation projects!!!

Oh, and........ If it's not due for an AP I don't know what is!!!!!! :P

Grand Lodge

blackbloodtroll wrote:
Molthune is so Soviet Russia.

Only in that it is expansionist. Nothing in the description suggests any kind of overriding ideology, reliance on large number of unskilled soldiers for human wave tactics, gulags, etc.

Maybe an idealized version of Imperial Russia would be a better model. (Soviet Union was basically Imperial Russia but with bad features magnified. Imagine Imperial Russia but make it a bit better, and with a lot more class mobility for those willing to serve in the military.)


Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I think an AP could take its lead from Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrell - in that book there are strong connections between the fey and Great Britain circa 1800 ...

Probably a spoiler for Jonathan Strange, a book you should read if you haven't already done so:
the fey are manipulating British high society at the time of the Napoleonic Wars, including a direct involvement in the madness of King George III

This would allow an extended look at the First World (one of the more fascinating ideas in Pathfinder, IMO), as well as Taldor, by connecting the two, and probably provide enough meat for an AP, which would also not just be a rerun of Hell's Rebels with slightly altered alignments. It also fits the Andoran/Galt uchronia of the latter part of the 18th century, and could possibly take in Galt (and even Andoran) as well.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Re: The Bearded/beardless being silly.

No sillier than threatening to burn the beards off of nobles to make them look more 'European' (Peter the Great) or barring various coloured fabric to the nobility/royalty.

It is one of the more historic things I enjoyed. (though I think it works better reversed)

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Pawns Subscriber
Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
Our modern civilization is about the same age (old testament starts with Creation and Garden of Eden back in -4000 right? so about 6000 years of history, comparable in scale to Taldor's)

Above timeline just for comparison purposes and to kinda appreciate the scope of how ancient Taldor is...

Ancient egypt started about 3500 B.C. I think... less time has elapsed since then for us than time elapsed for Taldans since the beginning of their empire.


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Yamara Potato Nose wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:
Molthune is so Soviet Russia.

Only in that it is expansionist. Nothing in the description suggests any kind of overriding ideology, reliance on large number of unskilled soldiers for human wave tactics, gulags, etc.

Maybe an idealized version of Imperial Russia would be a better model. (Soviet Union was basically Imperial Russia but with bad features magnified. Imagine Imperial Russia but make it a bit better, and with a lot more class mobility for those willing to serve in the military.)

Molthune is basically Prussia (a part of modern Germany, the one who unified it as a nation).

Taldor has nothing to do with Russia, tzarist or soviet. And btw, "human wave tactics" is what north korea and China used against South Corea and the US during the Korean war, it has nothing to do with Russian military tactics.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Human waves, i.e. throwing ten times the number of poorly trained soldiers at the enemy, is how Russia beat Germany in WW2. The germans kicked the crap out of 5 times their number of Russians and only that horrible winter stopped them from basically tearing Russia wide open.

Russia lost a million men against the Germans before that winter, and THEN started to actually fight back.
==========
If you read the Iron Medusa module, it gives some Taldoran back history. Among other things, the ruler of the kingdom actually has the bloodline of a family obligated to Asmodeus. So the outlawing of Saranrae is probably more a machination of Asmodeus then having anything to do with Qadira.

Outlawing the Angel of the Sun makes little sense. Outlawing a cult that misinterprets her as a goddess of war encouraging death to Taldor? that's something different. You can be pretty sure the faith of Saranrae predated Qadira, and the church in Taldor was NOT on the side of Qadira.

A lot of that stuff was 3.5 era, and some rewriting as Paizo went more independent is to be expected.

I did think the various beards did set up their fashion-conscious society quite well, but certainly they weren't integral.

==Aelryinth


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Aelryinth wrote:

Human waves, i.e. throwing ten times the number of poorly trained soldiers at the enemy, is how Russia beat Germany in WW2. The germans kicked the crap out of 5 times their number of Russians and only that horrible winter stopped them from basically tearing Russia wide open.

Russia lost a million men against the Germans before that winter, and THEN started to actually fight back.
==========
If you read the Iron Medusa module, it gives some Taldoran back history. Among other things, the ruler of the kingdom actually has the bloodline of a family obligated to Asmodeus. So the outlawing of Saranrae is probably more a machination of Asmodeus then having anything to do with Qadira.

Outlawing the Angel of the Sun makes little sense. Outlawing a cult that misinterprets her as a goddess of war encouraging death to Taldor? that's something different. You can be pretty sure the faith of Saranrae predated Qadira, and the church in Taldor was NOT on the side of Qadira.

A lot of that stuff was 3.5 era, and some rewriting as Paizo went more independent is to be expected.

I did think the various beards did set up their fashion-conscious society quite well, but certainly they weren't integral.

==Aelryinth

OT: Yeah, right. Please check out the siege of Stalingrad (and Leningrad) and how and why it failed (aside from the fact the Nazis did what Germany had always dreaded, they kept war open on 2 fronts even if they had reasons to believe teh conflict was all but won on the western side). Besides that the nazi brilliant use of mechanized infantry was what made them so successful in the early stages of the war, both against french and english troops (which were allowed to retreat at Dunkirk because "it's always good to let a broken army return home to show the civilian population what a beating they've had"...), which certainly were NOT poorly trained. The same strategy was vastly succesful during the early stages of operation Barbarossa, but failed to reach Moskow and that was not because of the winter but because taking Stalingrad was considered so important by Hitler. The Germans could not overextend themselves overmuch (in truth by reaching Stalingrad they were overextended already) and had done a lot to make themselves hated by the conquered populations which were not completely hostile initially (but that was to be expected as Hitler had planned to transform the slavic peoples into slaves for the Reich). Like it or not, Stalingrad was the turning point of the war and it was NOT won by human wave attacks, the nazi weren't able to conquer the city and then the russian regime had a powerful wake up call. Competent generals and officers were promoted and selected, factories were fully committed to the war effort and strategies were studied against the blitzkrieg that had proven so effective until that moment. That was what turned the momentum of war on the eastern front, not human wave attacks (which were a factor during the later korean conflict instead).

Edit IT: I must say I always hated what they did with Iron Medusa. Linking Taldor's ruling family to Asmodeus when we already have Cheliax and Thrune is completely redundant and therefore un-necessary, imo.

As for banning Saranrae, yeah it would make sense for it to be an Asmodean scheme BUT there's nothing in IM suggesting Hell has made any move to claim the agreement they had with Sativan's ancestors.

Grand Lodge

Rogar Valertis wrote:


Molthune is basically Prussia (a part of modern Germany, the one who unified it as a nation).

That is probably a much better way to think of it, if one must think of terms of RL analogies.

Quote:
And btw, "human wave tactics" is what north korea and China used against South Corea and the US during the Korean war, it has nothing to do with Russian military tactics.

The Soviets used them extensively (and often with great effect) during WWII, and during their war with Finland - this also explain in large part why Soviet losses were so enormous. The Fins got to watch in disbelief as the Soviets cleared minefields just by sending lots and lots of disposable troops through them.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

and you don't even need 'human waves', which often means just underequipped and disposable soldiers sent up against machine guns.

The Russians just outnumbered the enemy in every theater and pressed that advantage. They didn't need 'waves', per se. They just had more men.

Seriously, they lost a million people, and were just getting started. That tells you something about their willingness to eat losses.

And yeah, the Germans were overextended. They still killed everything the Russians threw at them, until that winter came, bought Russia time, and then the numbers really started coming at them.

==Aelryinth

Grand Lodge

Aelryinth wrote:

and you don't even need 'human waves', which often means just underequipped and disposable soldiers sent up against machine guns.

The Russians just outnumbered the enemy in every theater and pressed that advantage. They didn't need 'waves', per se. They just had more men.

Seriously, they lost a million people, and were just getting started. That tells you something about their willingness to eat losses.

And yeah, the Germans were overextended. They still killed everything the Russians threw at them, until that winter came, bought Russia time, and then the numbers really started coming at them.

==Aelryinth

The Soviets (not just the Russians, Russia and USSR were not exactly the same thing) had underequipped and disposal soldiers, and a huge numerical advantage.

The battle of Kursk, for instance, saw something like half a million deaths on each side. For the Germans, that was a disaster from which they never recovered. For the Russians, it was printing a few more draft notices.

So I am not sure what you are disagreeing with here, if anything.

An average German soldier was, in every way, superior to an average Soviet soldier. This did the German soldiers no good at all.


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OT: First thing for no army half a million deaths amount to just "printing a few more draft notices".
And yes, certainly the soviet army was outclassed in every way in the beginning of the war but expecially in equipment, armaments and above all tactical and strategical personell. Human wave tactics are what is generally employed by an army with inferior means in terms of equipment and technology to close the gap (it relies on HAVING superior numbers though, which may not always be the case), but you must understand that was not going to work well against the so called Blitzkrieg the nazis were employing. And it didn't work UNTIL Stalin was forced to do something so uncharacteristical for him: he had to appoint competent military personell (studies tell us he was always distrusting and often paranoid) promoted on merit and that's what changed the war on the eastern front not human wave tactics. Also you seem to forget operation Barabrossa was the largest military opration ever seen in history, one that could have taken Moskow well before the beginning of winter if not for Hitler tactical mistakes.
There are of course several reasons why the nazis failed on the eastern front: they were overextended after a while. They did nothing to endear themselves to the occupied populations (for example initially the ukrainian people was not opposed to them, but it gradually became so after witnessing what the germans had in mind for all the slavic people). They failed to break resistance in Leningrad and Stalingrad both. They failed to capture the oil fields in Baku (a vital goal considering the aforementioned overextension). All this gave the soviets time to regroup and rebuild, adapt tactics and mass produce new armaments which were often superior to their German counterparts (the soviet KV-1 and T-34 tanks for example).
And one last thing: resistance to invasion to the very bitter end like the one experienced on the eastern front of WWII cannot just be explained with political fanatism. The fact is the Nazis were making to mystery of what they were going to do: enslave the conquered peoples, starve a huge part of them to death and then replace them with ethnic "aryans". You might surrender to someone who let's you survive after. You generally won't surrender to someone who just wants to kill you and your family anyway.

P.S.

Always remember the death toll on the eastern front in WWII amounted to something like 26 million dead.

IT: Back on topic, after reading some of the above comments I think a time travel adventure in a Taldan AP could be a great idea of contrasting the grandeur of the past with the abysmal state Taldor exists in the present.


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Rogar Valertis wrote:
Back on topic, after reading some of the above comments I think a time travel adventure in a Taldan AP could be a great idea of contrasting the grandeur of the past with the abysmal state Taldor exists in the present.

For the record, this is the best "Taldor rather than anywhere else" reason to date- pity, then, that the powers that be are not, on balance, big fans of time travel within the Inner Sea region...

But it'd be cool to contrast the faded, tattered glories clung to in the present with the confident, powerful empire of the past.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

For the record, the soviet tanks were individually far, far inferior to the german tanks.

They were, however, much cheaper to produce, and so tank battles were the same thing...A german tank could take far more punishment and perform far better then the soviet tanks, but they were simply outgunned by 2-5x the number of the enemy, and overwhelmed. Leopard and Tiger tanks were the best tanks in the war, but slow and expensive to produce. Germany just got out manufactured and out gunned, again.

==Aelryinth

Scarab Sages

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Is there a forum thread somewhere that lays out the entire "stealth retcon," step by step?

I own (what I consider to be) a solid pile of Paizo products, but I'm pretty confident that I don't own every book that retconned some aspect of Taldor. I use the phrase "pretty confident" because I honestly don't know (as per the "stealth" part of "stealth retcon"). For that reason alone, I would support publication of an updated book that laid out the new baseline for Taldor.

Silver Crusade

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Short story:

Taldor started out as a vague Byzantine expy, and then while nobody was looking, Josh Frost (who isn't any more with Paizo, gaming industry, or matter of fact sane reality altogether) wrote a book that made Taldor a weird mix of caricature of medieval Europe combined with persecution against not-Islam (a.k.a. Church of Sarenrae).

As James and co. were back then busy with other things, the book slipped through and ever since the Paizo crew has been trying to make Taldor look what they wanted to have it look like form the beginning. But because the creative team is at disagreement as to what Taldor exactly is AND they're so super cool that nobody wants to enforce their vision while shutting out the others, the region is in a creative limbo with no major prospects for going anywhere soon.

Scarab Sages

On one hand, the fictional persecution of an Islam analog has distasteful implications. On the other hand, Earth's history is chock-full of ugly, violent interactions between government and religion.

Edit: Thanks for the recap. It helped.


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The changes have more to do with artistic intent than a desire to shy away from ugly subjects, so far as I can tell.

Taldor isn't supposed to be a place where Neutral Good Sarenites get persecuted for their beliefs- that sort of thing is more the province of hellholes like Nidal, Cheliax, Razmiran, and so forth.


KarlBob wrote:
Is there a forum thread somewhere that lays out the entire "stealth retcon," step by step?

This is a start.

Scarab Sages

Cole Deschain wrote:

The changes have more to do with artistic intent than a desire to shy away from ugly subjects, so far as I can tell.

Taldor isn't supposed to be a place where Neutral Good Sarenites get persecuted for their beliefs- that sort of thing is more the province of hellholes like Nidal, Cheliax, Razmiran, and so forth.

That may be true, but having a Neutral government persecute a Good sect, for reasons grounded more in politics than in morality, always struck me as very realistic.

Scarab Sages

Mudfoot wrote:
KarlBob wrote:
Is there a forum thread somewhere that lays out the entire "stealth retcon," step by step?
This is a start.

Thank you.

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