Dual Wielding Bastard Sword Fighter


Advice


I am testing out the idea of a fighter that dual wields bastard swords. He will use the Two Weapon Warrior format in the advanced players guide. I’m looking for advice about how I should advance him as he levels.

Lawful Neutral Human fighter

Str: 18
Dex: 16
Con: 14
Int:12
Wis:15
Chr: 8

Feats: Two weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Bastard Sword) Exotic Weapon training (Bastard Sword).

Traits: Rich Parents (900 gp at the start of the campaign.) Eyes and ears of the city (Perception is a class skill)
Equipment: two Masterwork Bastard Swords, chainshirt random other things,

Attacks:
Bastard Sword (Primary) +2 (1D10 +4)
Bastard Sword (offhand) +2(1D10 +2)

For my second level feat I’m planning on choosing Double Slice.

Sczarni

Sounds awesome. I'd hate to meet him angry out in an open field.

Grand Lodge

AInteresting... if you want to be REALLY impressive? Titan Mauler 2nd level Barbarian dual wielding Great Swords.


Should be +3/+3. I think you didn't tally Masterwork back into your equation.

Your stats are really high, so that should offset some of the pain of the -4/-4 I think. Really just leveling up and picking up any dual wield appropriate feats at the levels they are available and having the prerequisite dexterity to take the feats at that level should put you in the clear.

Attack Bonus is going to be your meat and potatoes, so anything you can get to try to boost it is going to be your best bet. Static damage is king at higher levels, so pick up power attack as soon as your attack bonuses can support it.

You should manage quite a few free feats, so I would personally pick up AC or save enhancers myself. I always like quick draw too, but all of that is personal preference.

Scarab Sages

Here's a similar option to consider: switch out to a dwarf and dual wield Dwarven waraxes. You'll lose the human bonus feat, but then, you won't need it since you'll get the waraxe proficiency for free. Not any better, statistically, just a different flavor, and one you may not have considered.

Otherwise, I second the notion of grabbing every two-weapon feat you can. Perhaps Iron Will and Lightning Reflexes when you can to boost the weak saves, but anything to offset the stiff penalties for dual-wielding.

At some point, try to pick up a Ring of Spell Storing and have a friendly ranger fill it with the Lead Blades spell. Then your 1d10 damage will go up to 2d8. That's what I'm talking about...

Dark Archive

I would advise not starting with Rich Parents or two bastard swords. The -4 to hit is not made up for by having Weapon Focus or Weapon Specialization with your off-hand. You will eventually be able to pull off two of them, but I would suggest waiting to do that until level 11.

Rich Parents is a poor feat (unless you're choosing it just for roleplaying purposes or if this is a total one-shot) because it will be a drop in the bucket compared with +1 to a saving throw or +2 to initiative.

If you go with a single bastard sword and a short sword your attack routine will be as follows:

bastard sword +4 (1d10+4/19-20) and short sword +3 (1d6+2/19-20)

By the end of first level you'll have enough money to afford a masterwork version of both of those; Power Attack is a better initial choice than Double Slice as well.

Another option to consider until you reach the level where you can competently use two one-handed weapons is a bastard sword and a dagger in a spring-loaded wrist sheathe. That would allow you to use the bastard sword two-handed on the move, and then draw the dagger as a swift action when you're able to take a full attack.

Shadow Lodge

i have a friend who played this same character, and he hated it. you will miss very often. even with an 18 strength you will only hit a 14 ac 40% of the time. go up against anything with an ac and you may as well sit down and play jacks in the corner.

what i would suggest, is that you play with short swords until you're about 6th level then switch to bastard swords. you could even keep the current feat build just chose not to use the bastards swords right away.

but if you dont care about being very effective in combat, and you can miss alot without being discouraged, then have fun playing this guy. it will build up slowly, but get good after 6th.

Dark Archive

Believe it or not, I actually did the math on the dwarf wielding two dwarven waraxes. Not surprising at all is that a Half-Orc with a double axe wins everytime. Less damage, more hits is the way to go.

Scarab Sages

@David: Yes, I've seen a few excel spreadsheets floating around the boards that compare DPR for various weapons and tactics. You are correct, the way to do the highest damage is to not dual wield. If I remember correctly, the highest DPR weapon, statistically, is a falcata being used two handed. As you said, the penalties for two-weapon fighting are too significant.

While I'm actually a fan of two-weapon fighting, it doesn't really work well unless the targets have pathetic AC and all of your iterative attacks can hit. Again, you're absolutely correct in that it is better to stack the odds so that you hit more even if it means fewer chances to do so. Hit more swing less!

I was just offering an option that the OP may not have thought of, but was similar to the build proposed. It has a different flavor but uses the same mechanics. If someone is really set on playing a two-weapon combatant for the fun of it, I say go get 'em. I'm sure there will be times when having so many attacks will be a benefit.


The others are correct, but if you insist on dual wielding wait until the TWF archtype can treat a one handed weapon as a light weapon. You actually get better numbers using kukris if damage is the goal.


This build can be quite good later in levels (once you get balance) as it bumps up your attacks by +2. I'm playing the exact same thing in a homebrew game right now. here are his attack and damage.

+24/24/19/19/14/14+19 +1d10+6 (TWR) (at 18 STR) (my GM doesn't allow +1 type weapons so thats without them)
you can dual attack as a standard action as well, so TWR is really nice.
So really just hold out for abit and you can do some nice damage later, also as you level getting to hit is hardly a problem.


Check.my handbook. Str Rangers guide to TWF for fighters.

Best bet before 9 is Scimitar/Cestus (So you can 2 handed power attack if you move), and Scimitar/Kukri once double strike comes online.
At 11 you get go Dual Kukris.

IF you are gonna drop a feat on EXP then replace Scimitar with Bastard Sword in my example.
Though if EXP is your choice I'd go Doublesword.


Why would you go bastard sword over the falcata?

Grand Lodge

Have you considered the sawtooth sabre?

Liberty's Edge

TheSideKick wrote:
i have a friend who played this same character, and he hated it. you will miss very often. even with an 18 strength you will only hit a 14 ac 40% of the time. go up against anything with an ac and you may as well sit down and play jacks in the corner.

That's actually not true. With this build, including the masterwork bonus, he needs a 7+ to hit AC 14 once with his bastard sword (attacking as a standard action) or an 11+ to hit with one of his TWF attacks (as a full-round action). That means he has a 70% chance of hitting with a standard action attack, but a 75% chance of hitting with at least one of the two full-attack actions, and a 25% chance of hitting with both. Against AC 14, his chance of hitting is actually better going TWF.

(Note that this doesn't include a damage comparison against a build that, for instance, two-hands a bastard sword and has Power Attack instead... I'm just talking about to-hit here.)

Some to-hit comparisons, single-weapon vs TWF full attacks (chance of hitting at least once), against various ACs:

AC 15 - 1W (65%), 2WF (70%)
AC 16 - 1W (60%), 2WF (64%)
AC 17 - 1W (55%), 2WF (51%)
AC 18 - 1W (50%), 2WF (44%)

For a 1st level character and the typical ACs of 1st level opponents, this isn't actually a terrible build idea. It's certainly not optimal, but it's not as bad as it's being made out to be, I think.


If you are going for EWP: Bastard Sword, you may want the EWP: Falcata instead.


Acquire a small Bastard Sword for your offhand. You lose a little damage on it (2 pts on average), but you gain +2 to hit on your main hand which is more than worth -2 damage on your offhand.


Shisumo wrote:
TheSideKick wrote:
i have a friend who played this same character, and he hated it. you will miss very often. even with an 18 strength you will only hit a 14 ac 40% of the time. go up against anything with an ac and you may as well sit down and play jacks in the corner.
That's actually not true. With this build, including the masterwork bonus, he needs a 7+ to hit AC 14 once with his bastard sword (attacking as a standard action) or an 11+ to hit with one of his TWF attacks (as a full-round action). That means he has a 70% chance of hitting with a standard action attack, but a 75% chance of hitting with at least one of the two full-attack actions, and a 25% chance of hitting with both. Against AC 14, his chance of hitting is actually better going TWF

Both his hands will be at a -4. So he will need 11s to hit AC 14.

Grand Lodge

The Sawtooth Sabre is much better for two weapon fighting. It's a 1d8 19-20/x2 one-handed weapon that counts as a light weapon for the purposes of two weapon fighting. It also looks cool.


For Two Weapon Fighting with Bastard Swords using the Two Weapon Fighter archetype I'd start out with one Bastard sword and short sword. Wait till level 11 when you get Improved balance with reduce the penalties for TWF by 1 and allows you use a one handed weapon in your off hand as though it were a light weapon. That's when you switch to two Bastard swords with -1/-1 penalty for Two Weapon fighting. You'll hit more often in your first 10 level with -2 to hit on both weapons and you weapon specialize in both swapping out Short Sword Specialization at 12th for another feat if you use a fighter bonus feat to get that specialization.

Liberty's Edge

CommandoDude wrote:
Shisumo wrote:
TheSideKick wrote:
i have a friend who played this same character, and he hated it. you will miss very often. even with an 18 strength you will only hit a 14 ac 40% of the time. go up against anything with an ac and you may as well sit down and play jacks in the corner.
That's actually not true. With this build, including the masterwork bonus, he needs a 7+ to hit AC 14 once with his bastard sword (attacking as a standard action) or an 11+ to hit with one of his TWF attacks (as a full-round action). That means he has a 70% chance of hitting with a standard action attack, but a 75% chance of hitting with at least one of the two full-attack actions, and a 25% chance of hitting with both. Against AC 14, his chance of hitting is actually better going TWF
Both his hands will be at a -4. So he will need 11s to hit AC 14.

Right... That's what I said...?

Shisumo wrote:
With this build, including the masterwork bonus, he needs a 7+ to hit AC 14 once with his bastard sword (attacking as a standard action) or an 11+ to hit with one of his TWF attacks (as a full-round action).

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