Any CAGM Barbarian builds out there?


Advice


Hey all,

I'm about to start a new campaign and decided to give the Invulnerable Rager a try from level one. I want to build into the CAGM rage power in the most optimized way possible.

Going to use a 20 point build, Pathfinder stuff only. Race doesn't really matter (though I don't like small races much).

So are there any links to decent builds I can use (my search didn't turn up any :( )?


SithHunter wrote:

Hey all,

I'm about to start a new campaign and decided to give the Invulnerable Rager a try from level one. I want to build into the CAGM rage power in the most optimized way possible.

Going to use a 20 point build, Pathfinder stuff only. Race doesn't really matter (though I don't like small races much).

So are there any links to decent builds I can use (my search didn't turn up any :( )?

For feats, obviously you're gonna need Combat Reflexes if you want to be able to make all of those AoOs, Power Attack for the damage boost, Vital Strike and its friends are good choices if you're limited to a standard action, Improved Critical is good if you're using a Falchion, and Improved/Greater Sunder for if you like breaking stuff.

for Rage Powers, Reckless Abandon gives you more to hit at the sacrifice of AC, making those power attacks have a better chance of landing, the beast totem line is always a great option(full attack at the end of a charge plus Natural Armor? Hell yes!) Smasher is also good(only if you like to sunder), and knockback can get something scary away from you if you think it might kill you.

I'll have more ideas when I have my books in front of me(at work right now).


Martiln wrote:
SithHunter wrote:

Hey all,

I'm about to start a new campaign and decided to give the Invulnerable Rager a try from level one. I want to build into the CAGM rage power in the most optimized way possible.

Going to use a 20 point build, Pathfinder stuff only. Race doesn't really matter (though I don't like small races much).

So are there any links to decent builds I can use (my search didn't turn up any :( )?

For feats, obviously you're gonna need Combat Reflexes if you want to be able to make all of those AoOs, Power Attack for the damage boost, Vital Strike and its friends are good choices if you're limited to a standard action, Improved Critical is good if you're using a Falchion, and Improved/Greater Sunder for if you like breaking stuff.

for Rage Powers, Reckless Abandon gives you more to hit at the sacrifice of AC, making those power attacks have a better chance of landing, the beast totem line is always a great option(full attack at the end of a charge plus Natural Armor? Hell yes!) Smasher is also good(only if you like to sunder), and knockback can get something scary away from you if you think it might kill you.

I'll have more ideas when I have my books in front of me(at work right now).

Thanks for the reply Martiln! For a weapon I was going to go with a 2 hander. Perhaps a greatsword or greataxe (falchion if 1/2 orc). Combat Reflexes is a must. With Power Attack, should I also use Furious Focus? Would be good to get rid of the penalty for Power Attack. I'm not really looking to specialize in sundering things.

Beast Totem sounds awesome, I have to look into that. Is that an archetype that can be used with invulnerable rager? I'll check out Reckless Abandon as well.


Definitely consider Dazing/Stunning Assault feats, available about the time you get CAGM. Since your AoOs hit before the enemy, these feats can stop a full attack in its tracks and leave you from even being hit.

Another idea to combo w/ the Dazing Assault thing I had was the In Harm's Way (requires Bodyguard) feat. Now you can protect adjacent allies by getting hit instead, use CAGM and Dazing Assault to hit first and possibly never actually get hurt. May require a favorable DM ruling since technically the enemy wasn't originally "attacking you," whatever.


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Awright bro, here it is. THE CAGM barbarian build.
Offers stupid high saves.
Interrupt enemy Attacks and for multiple save or Daze.
Pounce!!!
Massive damage.
KILLAAA!

Spoilered for awesomeness, WEAR Glasses:

Fast Movement, Rage, Power Attack, Raging Vitality

Barb2
DR1/-, Lesser Beast Totem

Barb3
Extreme Endurance, Improved Sunder

Barb4
DR2/-, Power: Strength Surge

Barb5
Extra Rage Power: Superstition

Barb6
DR3/-, Cold Resist1, Beast Totem

Barb7
Extra Rage Power: Reckless Abandon

Barb8
DR4/-, Witchunter

Barb9
Cold Resist2, Combat Reflexes

Barb10
DR5/-,Gtr Beast Totem

Barb11
Greater Rage Dazing Assault

Barb12
Cold Resist3, DR6/-, Come and Get Me

Barb13
Extra Rage Power: Spell Sunder

Barb14
DR7/-, Eater of Magic

Barb15
Cold Resist4, Raging Brutality

Barb16
DR8/-, Ghost Rager

Barb17
Tireless Rage, Extra Rage Power: Smasher

Barb18
DR9/-, Cold Resist5, Surprise Accuracy

Barb19
Extra Rage Power: Sunder Enchantment

Barb20
Mighty Rage, DR10/-, Good for What Ails You

The most Vital Point is the Trait: Optimistic gambler. Morale bonuses.last 1d4 rounds longer once the normal duration ceases. This means when you drop rage or are taken out of rage by a spell, your Str/Con and Will bonuses and superstition bonuses persist for 1d4rounds.

I am at work so can't fully explain why this rocks. Maybe other forum readers can say why. Or I'll be back later.

For optimal 20 point build ability scores, check the avatar.


I'm playing something similar to what calain posted, currently level 7.
I second his suggestion.

Just one quirk: I was building toward come and get me but I did not consider dazing assault optimal because I would like to get attacked and counterattack. If I'm am correct, you must activate dazing assault during your turn: if your enemy fails his save you don't get to use come and get me during his turn, which kind of defeat it's purpose. In addition you have to suck up a -5 to hit, which is pretty relevant (I consider powerattack and reckless abandon to balance each other out).
While I agree that one-on-one dazing assault is the optimal choice I don't like it so much in a real battle with multiple enemies. Anyone cares to sell me on it?


What does CAGM stand for?


wraithstrike wrote:
What does CAGM stand for?

I guess it is Come And Get Me.


I would suggest a reach weapon with Lunge and Pushing Assault. Barbarians don't have very good AC as it is. You mitigate this by trying to limit your opponents to only getting one attack on you by standing away from them (lunge) and using pushing assault to move them even further away from you, while still doing damage. You also get the added benefit of AoO when they move through a threatened area. I would add Unexpected Strike (usable every round with Rage Cycling) for a free AoO when the foe enters your threatened square. Flesh Wound (again usable every round with Rage Cycling)is also very good - you should be able to reduce one attack a round to half damage and convert to non-lethal. If the DR is applied after converting the damage, you can essentially negate one attack a round.

Definitely take the Invulnerable Rager Archetype and the Beast Totem Line like everyone has said. Superstition is great too. Not every GM may allow Optimistic Gambler (mine did not, since it was specific to an adventure path - but it's worth a shot)


D'arandriel wrote:

I would suggest a reach weapon with Lunge and Pushing Assault. Barbarians don't have very good AC as it is. You mitigate this by trying to limit your opponents to only getting one attack on you by standing away from them (lunge) and using pushing assault to move them even further away from you, while still doing damage. You also get the added benefit of AoO when they move through a threatened area. I would add Unexpected Strike (usable every round with Rage Cycling) for a free AoO when the foe enters your threatened square. Flesh Wound (again usable every round with Rage Cycling)is also very good - you should be able to reduce one attack a round to half damage and convert to non-lethal. If the DR is applied after converting the damage, you can essentially negate one attack a round.

Definitely take the Invulnerable Rager Archetype and the Beast Totem Line like everyone has said. Superstition is great too. Not every GM may allow Optimistic Gambler (mine did not, since it was specific to an adventure path - but it's worth a shot)

While this sounds like a very good barbarian build I will say this does not sound at all like a CaGM barbarian.


TarkXT wrote:
While this sounds like a very good barbarian build I will say this does not sound at all like a CaGM barbarian.

I think all CaGM me builds need to mitigate damage to some extent. Even a barbarian can only take so much. This build allows you to utilize all your extra AoO through both CoGM and Unexpected Strike, and mitigate the damage you take.

At the end of the day, its just a suggestion, and all you really need for any CaGM build is Combat Reflexes and CaGM.


D'arandriel wrote:
TarkXT wrote:
While this sounds like a very good barbarian build I will say this does not sound at all like a CaGM barbarian.

I think all CaGM me builds need to mitigate damage to some extent. Even a barbarian can only take so much. This build allows you to utilize all your extra AoO through both CoGM and Unexpected Strike, and mitigate the damage you take.

At the end of the day, its just a suggestion, and all you really need for any CaGM build is Combat Reflexes and CaGM.

Well I think I made an error myself in reading the post assuming you'd be using a reach weapon, which in all honestly it does not appear to be. So yes this does make for a good CaGM build.


TarkXT wrote:
Well I think I made an error myself in reading the post assuming you'd be using a reach weapon, which in all honestly it does not appear to be. So yes this does make for a good CaGM build.

I did suggest a reach weapon. Most creatures should have a 10ft reach by the time a barbarian gets to level 12. This is all part of the strategy of mitigating the damage the barbarian takes, while still dishing out as much as possible.


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Since the OP wanted a build...

Human Invulnerable Rager Barbarian 8 / Dual-Cursed Oracle 1 / Barbarian +X

Favored Class: Bonus to Superstition

Curses: Lame and Tongues (tongues does not accrue higher level benefits)
Mystery: Whatever. Pick one you like. Metal will let you recoup the speed loss via a revelation if you want.

Feats, Rage Powers, and Revelations:

1 Power Attack
1 Raging Feat Tax...err...Vitality [Human]
2 Superstition rage power [Barb 2]
3 Combat Reflexes
4 Reckless Abandon rage power [Barb 4]
5 Extra Rage Power (Lesser Beast Totem)
6 Ghost Rager rage power [Barb 6]
7 Extra Rage Power (Beast Totem)
8 Stength Surge rage power [Barb 8]
9 Misfortune revelation [Oracle 1]
9 Extra Rage Power (Knockdown) or Extra Revelation
11 Greater Beast Totem rage power [Barb 10]
11 Extra Rage Power (Flesh Wound)
13 Come and Get Me rage power [Barb]
13 Dazing Assault
15 Eater of Magic rage power [Barb]
15 Extra Revelation?

Chose dual-cursed because losing some class skills and only being able to speak celestial or whatever is worth unlocking Misfortune revelation, which lets you both debuff enemies and save allies. Of course Lame at 9 is for fatigue immunity. Oracle dip can be shunted off later or taken earlier if you want, 9 is just the exact point where it all "clicks." With Fatigue immunity, you can hop in and out of rage to use 1/rage powers much more often.

The Opportunistic Gambler trait might be worth getting, but it might be a burden if you can't choose when to use it or not. If you're forced to use it, it will hurt your rage hopping ability and probably should be avoided.


D'arandriel wrote:
Most creatures should have a 10ft reach by the time a barbarian gets to level 12.

Ah, the trouble is that there are plenty of creatures at this CR that are jsut as dangerous and don't have reach.

Still nothing stops you from carrying a pole arm and a falchion.


Step Up also helps. Could be worth putting in the build.

Dark Archive

Quote:
Of course Lame at 9 is for fatigue immunity.

forgive me for not understanding how you get fatigue immunity with only a 1 level dip in oracle. I was under the impression you didn't get that until you are a 5th level oracle because when the text refers to something in generic terms of levels that it specifically refers to the class level. I myself have wanted to build a dual cursed melee oracle, because it fits the fluff for my character but I've been having major issues getting it to be effective because most of the character's life is in oracle trying to get the curse benefits to help offset the penalties.

Quote:
One of your legs is permanently wounded, reducing your base land speed by 10 feet if your base speed is 30 feet or more. If your base speed is less than 30 feet, your speed is reduced by 5 feet. Your speed is never reduced due to encumbrance. At 5th level , you are immune to the fatigued condition (but not exhaustion). At 10th level, your speed is never reduced by armor. At 15th level, you are immune to the exhausted condition.

-Vel


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Oracle's Curse states, "An oracle’s curse is based on her oracle level plus one for every two levels or Hit Dice other than oracle."

So at other stuff 8 / Oracle 1, you have effective level of 5 for curse.

You could dip the oracle earlier for the advantages of being able to use wands of cleric spells and such, or wait till you have CAGM at Barb 12 for it if you want. But if you drop in at 9th, with a single level only in Oracle that just happens to be the exact moment you hit pay dirt.


Thanks for all the responses and the builds. I really like them both. Calain's is good because he goes Barb all the way. StreamOfTheSky's build is awesome because I like the idea of a cursed person, raging in battle...the background could be amazing.

I've seen multiple suggestions on reach weapons. My question is once the enemy gets inside (within 5 ft) you can't use them right? Or is that only with certain reach weapons.

I was going to go with human (for feats and skills)with a 20pt buy along the lines of Calain's build. Maybe I should keep a reach and a 2 hander ready for all circumstances. Perhaps take quick draw for fast weapon switching.

Oh, and what is Rage Cycling?


Use armor spikes, spiked gauntlet, regular guantlet/unarmed strike, something like that, and you can threaten at reach and adjacent, though the adjacent attacks will be MUCH weaker. Better option is to probably use a non-reach weapon, get right up on foes, and use Step Up to keep them from exploiting superior reach with a 5 ft step. If you suffer an AoO getting into adjacent...yet another CAGM AoO! :)

And rage cycling, or rage hopping, is using rage for only one round at a time. You can enter rage as much as you want in a fight, but not while fatigued. So...you get fatigue immunity, and now leaving rage won't leave you fatigued, and you can just keep cycling in and out. You do this to turn once/rage powers into once/round powers. Most are so pathetically weak that they're still not worth learning, but there's a few gems.


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SithHunter wrote:

Thanks for all the responses and the builds. I really like them both. Calain's is good because he goes Barb all the way. StreamOfTheSky's build is awesome because I like the idea of a cursed person, raging in battle...the background could be amazing.

I've seen multiple suggestions on reach weapons. My question is once the enemy gets inside (within 5 ft) you can't use them right? Or is that only with certain reach weapons.

I was going to go with human (for feats and skills)with a 20pt buy along the lines of Calain's build. Maybe I should keep a reach and a 2 hander ready for all circumstances. Perhaps take quick draw for fast weapon switching.

Oh, and what is Rage Cycling?

Once someone comes within the reach of a reach weapon, I think most GMs would be OK with having you use the reach weapon as an improvised weapon. But it's always advisable to carry a back-up weapon anyway. If you have the Beast Totem line, you can also just drop the weapon and use your claws if you needed to do so. I love CaGM, but it could also be a trap. Eventually, the barbarian will go down. You are better off making sure the opponent can't even hit you because you have superior reach. If they move into your threatened area you get a free AoO (through Unexpected Strike) then get another AoO when they move through your threatened area to attack you. That's 2 free AoO without ever taking a hit through CaGM. At this point, you can just let them attack you and trade blows through CaGM.

Rage Cycling or Rage Hopping is when you can hop in and out of rage every round because you can ignore fatigue. Once you can do this, you can start using the once per rage abilities once per round (because you are activating rage every round). You don't even need to dip into lame oracle. You can just pick up the allnight herb and ignore fatigue for 8 hours. You do become exhausted after, but if you have the Heart of the Fields alternate racial trait from APG, then you can ignore fatigue and exhaustion once per day.

Lastly, no matter what build you go with, I find GMs have a way of throwing curve balls, and when you grow the character organically from 1st level, feats and rage powers may need to change from what you had initially mapped out.


Don't need the herbs, either. Get potions of the Invigorate spell. It's a level 1 bard spell, 50 gp a pop, lasts 10 minutes.


Okay so I'm beginning to understand why this particular barb build is so popular.

Which 1/rage powers are worth getting?


Not many, honestly. Even at 1/round, most are pretty weak. Flesh Wound is the best of the lot. Eater of Magic or the one to specifically reroll a will save are decent. Stength Surge if combined with Knockdown (which is listed as 1/rage instead of 1/round like Knockback, strangely) can be ok for a near guaranteed trip attack.

The energy-based rage powers are pretty weak and cost many to get up the whole chain, but if you just wanted a really cool "dual-tech" with the party mage, Energy Eruption can be funny, albeit of questionable worth. Basically, caster uses a blast spell and purposely catches you, the barbarian, in it. You absorb the damage instead of taking it, and then on your turn unleash it as a breath weapon attack to hit the enemies with it again. Requires 16 levels and FIVE(!!!) rage powers to learn, all for the opportunity to trade your pouncing full attack for a breath weapon. So...definitely falls into the "do it solely because its cool" territory.

Liberty's Edge

SithHunter wrote:
Which 1/rage powers are worth getting?

Strength Surge is the stand-out. Particularly when combined with Spell Sunder and Sunder Enchantment from Ultimate Combat. Spell buffs you say? Not any more.


Was thinking about going with a wizard hating type of barb. Haven't played one like that in a long time. So Spell Sunder is definitely on the list. Eater of Magic looks amazing as well.

Um, I doubt I have room for all these feats lol.

Liberty's Edge

SithHunter wrote:
Um, I doubt I have room for all these feats lol.

Extra Rage Power exists for a reason.


That's why he said feats, not rage powers. :)
He's planning on taking Extra Rage Power a lot. There's simply not enough feat slots to do all the sorts of different stuff mentioned.

Spell Sunder: Maybe it's because I come from 3E, where the Mage Slayer feat line has Pierce Magical Protection and Pierce Magical Concealment feats, which work MUCH better than that rage power, and the Tome of Battle had Iron Heart Surge, which dispelled a single spell effect with 100% success rate. But...it just doesn't impress me much. You basically need to beat a CMD of 25 + caster level to sunder a spell effect. That's crazy! You need Strength Surge just to have a chance, even then, not sure how easy it would be. Also...is Sunder a standard attack action, or can you just use it on AoOs and part of a full attack like trip and disarm? If the latter, I guess Spell Sunder is much more attractive.

Liberty's Edge

StreamOfTheSky wrote:
Spell Sunder: Maybe it's because I come from 3E, where the Mage Slayer feat line has Pierce Magical Protection and Pierce Magical Concealment feats, which work MUCH better than that rage power, and the Tome of Battle had Iron Heart Surge, which dispelled a single spell effect with 100% success rate. But...it just doesn't impress me much. You basically need to beat a CMD of 25 + caster level to sunder a spell effect. That's crazy! You need Strength Surge just to have a chance, even then, not sure how easy it would be. Also...is Sunder a standard attack action, or can you just use it on AoOs and part of a full attack like trip and disarm? If the latter, I guess Spell Sunder is much more attractive.

Eh, by 6th level, with Improved Sunder, you should have a minimum of +15 not counting Strength Surge. Quite possibly more like +18. That's without any real focus on it beyond the one Feat, and without Reckless Abandon. And it increases by more than one per level. And most spellcasters aren't exactly masters of CMD in the first place, I mean a 6th or 7th level Wizard might easily have a CMD as low as 14 or so. That's DC 29 and doable without the Strength Surge. An Adult Red Dragon's quite a bit harder (CMD 39, so DC 54 for this), but by 14th level your bonus is likely +30, +44 with Strength Surge, and that's very much on the high end, hardness-wise.


The caster's CMD doesn't matter. All that does is their CL, which casters tend to max the hell out of as much as possible.

"Benefit: Once per rage, the barbarian can attempt to sunder an ongoing spell effect by succeeding at a combat maneuver check. For any effect other than one on a creature, the barbarian must make her combat maneuver check against a CMD of 15 plus the effect’s caster level. To sunder an effect on a creature, the barbarian must succeed at a normal sunder combat maneuver against the creature’s CMD + 5, ignoring any miss chance caused by a spell or spell-like ability. If successful, the barbarian suppresses the effect for 1 round, or 2 rounds if she exceeded the CMD by 5 to 9. If she exceeds the CMD by 10 or more, the effect is dispelled."

I guess to sunder effects on the caster... but if you can melee the caster, the caster is dead anyway. More likely, you'll be sundering area spel effects hindering you or trying to dispel a haste or something that the caster buffed his melee brute (whose CMD +5 will be decent, and adding 10 to that for an actual dispel will make it nigh impossible) with that you're now fighting.


Even suppressing something for one round is more than enough in many cases. How long does that wall of force need to go away for the rest of your group to pour through anyway?

So 15 plus caster level at 6th is typically what? 21? Most of the time its higher but I think 23-25 is about the maximum.

So with Improved Sunder, greater sunder, 22 str (including rage), and bab I'll have a +15 not including other feats, spell bonuses, or weapon bonuses. And those numbers grow much more quickly. It's very easy for me to get mroe cmb. But very difficult to get more caster levels. :)


I suppose that's fair, there's plenty of situations where removing it for 1 round is sufficient. Bonus points if the caster, who really has no reasonable way of knowing how long his spell is gone for, or even whether or not it was truly dispelled, ends up thinking it's gone, is pursued by the party, and ends up going into the (now clear) area his black tentacle field used to be, only to realize when the barb's turn comes up that it wasn't actually totally dispelled. That would be pretty hilarious.

Liberty's Edge

Ah! I was indeed assuming Sundering things like buff spells. Basically because Sundering area spells becomes trivial pretty quick. At 6th level it's hard without Strength Surge, but look at the 14th level guy I mention above. He can Sunder CL 20 spells permanently a full 30% of the time unaided and can't fail to do so with Strength Surge.

Now, there's a lot of levels between 6th and 14th and that power gets progressively better that entire time.


All this is in the build I posted.

Calain can:
Pounce with or Without Raging Brutality
Spell Sunder or Sunder Enchantment
Has Crazy High Saves when raging and can use Eater of Magic in tje Unlikely event of a failure.
Can use CaGM and Dazing Assault together to interrupt enemy attacks and force multiple.saves or daze effects per round.
Can rage cycle from level 1 (Thanks to Heart of the fields and a bad Allnight addiction.)
Has 1d4 extra rage rounds everytime he rages from level1. (Great if you fail a calm emotions save before you get Superstition)
Has a Higher to Hit than a Fighter can get (via Reckless Abandon and a Furious Weapon)
Can sunder the Armor of Super High.AC turtle fighters (Ignorning hardness)
Gets +6 damage vs anything that casts. (Which is nearly everything over CR10)
Does enough DPR to 1round nearly anything of a level appropriate CR.

All 100% raw.

I mean, what else d'ya want people? High AC as well? That's what HP and Clerics are for.
Bows? Bows are for Pu$$ies!


Okay so as I look at these two builds, I see that Stream's uses a dip into Lame Oracle to avoid the fatigue problem post raging, and STR Ranger uses allnight herbs (potions of Invigorate work as well). Both are solid in their own right. Man I want to play them both lol.

But from level one I think both are very viable. I'm definitely dropping this thread in my favorites tabs. Thanks to everyone for the builds and advice. :)

Liberty's Edge

SithHunter wrote:
Okay so as I look at these two builds, I see that Stream's uses a dip into Lame Oracle to avoid the fatigue problem post raging, and STR Ranger uses allnight herbs (potions of Invigorate work as well). Both are solid in their own right. Man I want to play them both lol.

Based on wording, I'd personally say Allnight doesn't work for this (though Heart of the Fields will once a day). Allnight specifically says that it removes the effects of Fatigued, not the condition itself, and Rage cannot be entered while Fatigued, so I'd rule that while you won't suffer the penalties, you still can't enter Rage for a few rounds after ending it, since you're still Fatigued, just ignoring the penalties.

But that's just me, many GMs might allow it.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
SithHunter wrote:
Okay so as I look at these two builds, I see that Stream's uses a dip into Lame Oracle to avoid the fatigue problem post raging, and STR Ranger uses allnight herbs (potions of Invigorate work as well). Both are solid in their own right. Man I want to play them both lol.

Based on wording, I'd personally say Allnight doesn't work for this (though Heart of the Fields will once a day). Allnight specifically says that it removes the effects of Fatigued, not the condition itself, and Rage cannot be entered while Fatigued, so I'd rule that while you won't suffer the penalties, you still can't enter Rage for a few rounds after ending it, since you're still Fatigued, just ignoring the penalties.

But that's just me, many GMs might allow it.

Interesting take on that Deadmanwalking, so would the potion of Invigorate work? Or is it the fact that it's an illusion make it fall under the same effect as Allnight?

Scarab Sages Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games

I think this interpretation is technically correct. Removing the ill effects of a condition is not the same thing as removing the condition. It covers it up; it doesn't actually get rid of it.

Liberty's Edge

SithHunter wrote:
Interesting take on that Deadmanwalking, so would the potion of Invigorate work? Or is it the fact that it's an illusion make it fall under the same effect as Allnight?

The fact that it specifically states (as does Allnight, in very similar language) "the subject takes no penalties from the fatigued or exhausted conditions." means that I would indeed not let it work for this.

If it actually removed the condition (even temporarily), I'd let it wortk, illusion or no (if the illusion's enough to make you actually no longer tired, it's enough to permit Rage)...but that's not the case.

To Rage, you actually need to not be Fatigued, not just be ignoring the penalties you get from it. Neither would prevent a hypothetical effect that only targets Fatigued characters from working, either. They explicitly don't eliminate the condition any more than Delay Poison does, they just (again, like Delay Poison) temporarily suspend it's effects. That doesn't make someone under Delay Poison not poisoned, and it doesn't make someone under Invigorate not Fatigued.

Now, both Invigorate and Allnight still let a Barbarian stop raging and avoid the penalties from Fatigue for the rest of the fight, it's just that neither in and of itself allows rage-cycling.

EDIT: Ninja'd with support! Best ninjaing I've ever had. :)


Y'all are missing the combo.

Allnight will let you rage cycle every OTHER round.

Ed take all night. Have a fight. Rage 1 round and use a rage power. Drop rage and fatigued 1 round (ignoring penalties) rd3 rage again and use rage power etc.

Optimistic.Gambler is what breaks this because it makes the effect of rage (hp, str, will bonus) persist for 1d4 rounds which covers the fatigue duration.

So with this, from level 1, you can drop in and out of rage every other round and never lose your rage bonuses. Allowing your 1/rage powers to be used every other round.


STR Ranger wrote:

Y'all are missing the combo.

Allnight will let you rage cycle every OTHER round.

Ed take all night. Have a fight. Rage 1 round and use a rage power. Drop rage and fatigued 1 round (ignoring penalties) rd3 rage again and use rage power etc.

Optimistic.Gambler is what breaks this because it makes the effect of rage (hp, str, will bonus) persist for 1d4 rounds which covers the fatigue duration.

So with this, from level 1, you can drop in and out of rage every other round and never lose your rage bonuses. Allowing your 1/rage powers to be used every other round.

Please explain. I would think you can rage cycle every round with allnight, since you ignore the effects of fatigue while using the herb. One of the effects of fatigue being that you can not enter into rage while fatigued. I think to argue otherwise is just semantics and rules lawyering. If you can ignore the effects of fatigue, then for all intents and purposes, you are not fatigued.


D'arandriel wrote:
Please explain. I would think you can rage cycle every round with allnight, since you ignore the effects of fatigue while using the herb. One of the effects of fatigue being that you can not enter into rage while fatigued. I think to argue otherwise is just semantics and rules lawyering. If you can ignore the effects of fatigue, then for all intents and purposes, you are not fatigued.

Hard to explain it any better than Jason Nelson did above but here goes: Fatigued is a condition. While Allnight and Invigorate remove the EFFECTS of the condition, it's not the same as removing the condition itself.

Therefore a fatigued barbarian may not be suffering the effects of the fatigued condition, but he's still fatigued and cannot rage until that condition goes away.

My DM has ruled the same way, so I have to take a hard look at Optimistic Gambler and see how that works.


Seems like its arguing semantics. If the effects of the condition don't exist, then for all intents and purposes, the condition does not exist. Luckily, I play with a far more reasonable GM.


Doesn't matter as it's better to use Optimistic Gambler this way, because not only does it get around the fatigue issue (if your gm is tough) is DOUBLES your effective rage rounds at least.

Scarab Sages Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
D'arandriel wrote:
Seems like its arguing semantics. If the effects of the condition don't exist, then for all intents and purposes, the condition does not exist. Luckily, I play with a far more reasonable GM.

The condition DOES still exist. It's just not causing penalties at the moment.

The analogy with delay poison is apt; you still have the poisoned condition, you are just suffering no penalties from the condition of being poisoned until the spell wears off or is dispelled.

Why does it matter?

1. If you still have the condition of fatigued, and you suffer an additional fatigue effect, you become exhausted. The fact that you are suffering no penalties from the fatigued condition is irrelevant to the fact that the two fatigued conditions stack into exhausted.

2. If there are game rules that depend on the the condition of being fatigued (like, for instance, a barbarian not being able to enter a rage while fatigued), you are still fatigued. The condition is not removed.

Hope that helps.

Liberty's Edge

STR Ranger wrote:

Y'all are missing the combo.

Allnight will let you rage cycle every OTHER round.

Ed take all night. Have a fight. Rage 1 round and use a rage power. Drop rage and fatigued 1 round (ignoring penalties) rd3 rage again and use rage power etc.

Optimistic.Gambler is what breaks this because it makes the effect of rage (hp, str, will bonus) persist for 1d4 rounds which covers the fatigue duration.

So with this, from level 1, you can drop in and out of rage every other round and never lose your rage bonuses. Allowing your 1/rage powers to be used every other round.

Rage fatigues you for two rounds for every round you Rage. So this only works if you roll 2+ on that d4, and only lets you use the powers once every three rounds.

Additionally, taking that Campaign Trait anywhere but Second Darkness is very shaky rules-wise (as in, not allowed RAW), and applying it to Rage when Rage wasn't even a morale effect when it was written (3.5 era), is at least equally exploitive and shaky for anything but the strictest RAW interpretation.

So the combination (not allowed to be taken RAW, only works with the strictest interpretation of RAW) means this tactic only really works if your GM isn't paying attention or happens to be running Second Darkness.


I strongly disagree w/ Jason. I don't like the idea that removing every single aspect of a condition isn't the same as removing the condition. That leads to really awful places.

It was a 3E thread, not sure if it's still true, but I recall someone pointing out that by strict RAW, a seeking bow, Improved Precise Shot, basically every ability like that, does not remove concealment, it just removes the miss chance due to concealment. Due to how rogue's SA was worded (lose it if the foe has concealment), that meant there was basically no way for the poor rogue to counter a 1st-freaking-level spell (obscuring mist).

So no. That way madness, and projectile-launched rulesbooks, leads. If nothing defining the condition is there, the condition should not count as there.

In any case, I don't like having to rely on drugs or potions, so I'd do the oracle dip regardless.


StreamOfTheSky wrote:
So no. That way madness, and projectile-launched rulesbooks, leads.

I have definitely been here during 3E and 3.5 lol.

I'm leaning toward the Oracle dip route as well, as my DM has ruled the same way Jason did above. It might take a little longer to get there but it's worth it once I do.

Once again thanks for all the suggestions. Looking back, I think this is a very informative thread :)

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