Can an Ooze be knocked Prone?


Rules Questions

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The 3.5 FAQ wrote:


Being tripped makes you prone. Who can be tripped?
Beholders? Gelatinous cubes? What effect does tripping
have on these creatures? Can a prone character be tripped
again? What about flying and swimming creatures? Many
creatures have neither legs nor any relationship to the
ground or gravity. How does tripping affect them?
Anything using limbs for locomotion can be tripped.
Things that don’t need limbs for locomotion can’t be tripped.
You can’t trip a snake, a beholder, or a gelatinous cube. You
won’t find this in the rules, but then it really doesn’t need to be
in there—the rules can leave some things to the DM’s common
sense.

A creature flying with wings can be “tripped,” in which
case the creature stalls (see Tactical Aerial Movement on page
20 of the DMG). You can’t make an incorporeal creature fall
down. You also can’t trip a prone creature.
Creatures can’t be tripped when they’re swimming (the
water holds them up). Likewise, a burrowing creature is driving
its body through a fairly solid medium that serves to hold it up.

Undoubtably someone will make the "...but thats 3.x and it doesn't count!" arguement. I will preempt that to say, "I don't care. I was posting this so that you could make of it what you will."

IMO, nothing important in Pathfinder has changed about being prone or about oozes. The original question was not in regards to tripping but that is answered not only here but in Pathfinder under the trip rules.

Since an Ooze can choose to go prone I would suppose it could be made to be prone by other methods as well. Just not trip as that is a specific exception noted in the trip description.

...does that about cover it? Aside from the "nuh uh, its 3.x, not PF!" refutations, that is?

Liberty's Edge

In light of the D&D 3.5 FAQ clarifications to the "prone" condition, that can be applied to Pathfinder, I would agree you could use descriptive flavor to indicate a "prone-like" condition in an ooze, or it's like.

The previously mentioned "spread too thin" description would suffice, and one I could accept as "common-sensical".

I think the next line of the "prone" rules clarification in the 3.5 FAQ sums it up though: "You won’t find this in the rules, but then it really doesn’t need to be in there—the rules can leave some things to the DM’s common sense."

As well as: "...(Although giving something like a gelatinous cube that option defies common sense and should not be allowed.)..."

Apparently, they also ruled that limbless creatures do not move slower when "prone": "If a creature has no motive limbs, you move at your normal speed when prone..."

You, as a GM, would have to rule as to whether that is good enough for you, or if you will decide to house-rule prone conditions in Oozes.

For myself, I will rule in the favor of common sense.


Kinda stopped reading, but...

Already weighed in on oozes, but I find comparing them to snakes is inaccurate.

Snakes themselves should be the corner case rather than mer/serpentfolk/naga type creatures which clearly have a standing/upright position to which to go prone from. (but are immune to trip)
(The corner case on snakes being that they should already get the +4AC vs ranged when flat on the ground but only a -4 on attacks if say you threw one on the ground from a tree and it lands prone -- pretty confident the rules don't currently reflect this particular bit of realism)

*As a note, I'm not comparing oozes to naga either.


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People often have the fear that snakes will chase them. This is a silly fear as snakes are most likely to run away from you if they can. However, I have heard that this is not true of the king cobra. I have heard stories of people being chased through the forest by these snakes. They definitely will charge you and when they do they stand up 3 or 4 feet off the ground!

I see fantasy snakes acting like the king cobra. When in combat they're standing up.

Silver Crusade

Mergy wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:

This does need to be fixed, because my I still have yet to be able to draw a mental image of a snake or puddle of liquid taking a position that allows it to get +4 against ranged attacks.

edit:long story made short-->Sometimes RAW fails, and even the devs say it is not to be used in a vacuum.

I don't think it needs errata or anything else. If you're playing a home game, fix it. If it's for PFS, ignore it or laugh about it, because there are much larger issues.

Says the poster who's logic is "if the book don't say I can't then it must be able to do it."

Silver Crusade

The Elusive Jackalope wrote:
So...if a marilith or a lilend azata falls prone to gain a bonus to AC against ranged attacks it is stuck that way forever, shallowsoul?

You do understand that the Marilith has arms that it can use to push it self up and the Lillend has wings.

Got anything else?

Silver Crusade

Lakesidefantasy wrote:

People often have the fear that snakes will chase them. This is a silly fear as snakes are most likely to run away from you if they can. However, I have heard that this is not true of the king cobra. I have heard stories of people being chased through the forest by these snakes. They definitely will charge you and when they do they stand up 3 or 4 feet off the ground!

I see fantasy snakes acting like the king cobra. When in combat they're standing up.

Also, if you notice a King Cobra will form a coil like a spring and lift itself up in the air.


You said:

'shallowsoul' wrote:
Now in order to make some of your absurd logic work then the designers need to make it clear that creatures without legs can still stand up.

...and I responded with a couple of creatures of the top of my head that most certainly can be prone or not by the rules. However, by your logic, they could never stand up from prone. Now you say they can by arbritarily ammending your logic when someone shows you that you are wrong. How do you suppose the rule should be written this time?

'shallowsoul' wrote:
Got anything else?

Yes; the rules being completely on my side with nothing to suggest otherwise.

How 'bout you?


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Coming up next on PF Springer:
How does a character use the chokehold feat on a plant? It explicitly says they breathe... therefore you can suffocate them.


Tarantula wrote:

Coming up next on PF Springer:

How does a character use the chokehold feat on a plant? It explicitly says they breathe... therefore you can suffocate them.

Yeah, right next to : ooze can't hurt me 'cause in the rule it's nowhere stated that a human is organic... same for the grease... :p


The Elusive Jackalope wrote:

You said:

'shallowsoul' wrote:
Now in order to make some of your absurd logic work then the designers need to make it clear that creatures without legs can still stand up.

...and I responded with a couple of creatures of the top of my head that most certainly can be prone or not by the rules. However, by your logic, they could never stand up from prone. Now you say they can by arbritarily ammending your logic when someone shows you that you are wrong. How do you suppose the rule should be written this time?

'shallowsoul' wrote:
Got anything else?

Yes; the rules being completely on my side with nothing to suggest otherwise.

How 'bout you?

While 3.5 clarifications support your argument I will also add that the RAW is not always the rules.

The rules "don't say I can" or "can't" is not a valid argument in and of itself for every occasion. Not every ruling that deviates from RAW is a houserule. Ruling that deviate from RAI are houserules. This is important, and that is the point I was trying to get across earlier, even though I was wrong about the prone issue. Yeah sometimes RAI is hard to figure out, but that does not make deviating from it any less of a houserule. I will get back to this later in the post.

Quote:
At some point, common sense HAS to step in and help things out. If it can't and won't, then the rulebook needs to be a lot bigger so as to cover every possible thing that could come up. And the rulebook's quite big enough already.

I did not write the quote, but I support it.

Telling a player they can do something that clearly is not the intent is not helping anyone.
------------------------------------------------------
@Shallowsoul: Even though I hope this prone issue is clarified officially only the ooze for some reason is not supposed to be able to go prone by RAI. Snakes can go prone assuming PF follows 3.5. I did not make that one up. It was answered twice by the 3.5 FAQ. I will houserule it out of my games if someone tries to make a creature that is already down(as low as it can get to the ground) become prone, but for actual rules there it is what it is.

In EJ's defense he did say he would specificy the RAW, but suggest against it if it did not fit the RAI, now if only he would stop using the antagonize feat.
-----------------------------------------------------
Example of RAW not being RAI in case proof is needed.

Quote:

Paladin: Does a paladin's lay on hands (page 61) use positive energy?

Yes.

Quote:

Beginning at 2nd level, a paladin can heal wounds (her own or those of others) by touch. Each day she can use this ability a number of times equal to 1/2 her paladin level plus her Charisma modifier. With one use of this ability, a paladin can heal 1d6 hit points of damage for every two paladin levels she possesses. Using this ability is a standard action, unless the paladin targets herself, in which case it is a swift action. Despite the name of this ability, a paladin only needs one free hand to use this ability.

Alternatively, a paladin can use this healing power to deal damage to undead creatures, dealing 1d6 points of damage for every two levels the paladin possesses. Using lay on hands in this way requires a successful melee touch attack and doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity. Undead do not receive a saving throw against this damage.

RAW it does not use positive energy.

PS: Your posts come across as snarky. I don't know if it is intentional or not, but all it does is make people want to try harder to prove you wrong.

In short if you want people to focus on the point, then the way you respond is important.

PS2: I am in no way defending anyone who may have said anything rude to you.


wraithstrike wrote:

RAW it does not use positive energy.

You can't say that, what you can say is : RAW you can't say whether or not it is positive energy or something else, RAW nothing is specified... It ma be positive energy or not... ;)

Shadow Lodge

*shakes head*

Liberty's Edge

This is an insane discussion. lol. Cannot believe it is up to 3 pages.

I am a huge fan of running games as close to RAW as written as possible, but this is a situation, seeing as oozes are amorphous and have no defined top, bottom, side, front, back, that they cannot sit, stand, lay down thereby excluding the chance of being prone, from my perspective. There are a lot of things written strangely that cause odd situations when taken blindly RAW.


I know it has been years since this was posted but going off of all the banter in here it wasn't the best to refer to snakes in regard to oozes and prone so what I have found with all this is that what people are saying is that a swarm can be knocked prone because they are not immune to prone they are however immune to trip


MarqueMailliw wrote:

I know it has been years since this was posted but going off of all the banter in here it wasn't the best to refer to snakes in regard to oozes and prone so what I have found with all this is that what people are saying is that a swarm can be knocked prone because they are not immune to prone they are however immune to trip

Basically

Immunity to Trip =/= Immunity to Prone

There are many ways you can knock someone prone without tripping them.

Liberty's Edge

Scavion wrote:
MarqueMailliw wrote:

I know it has been years since this was posted but going off of all the banter in here it wasn't the best to refer to snakes in regard to oozes and prone so what I have found with all this is that what people are saying is that a swarm can be knocked prone because they are not immune to prone they are however immune to trip

Basically

Immunity to Trip =/= Immunity to Prone

There are many ways you can knock someone prone without tripping them.

You need something that has an area effect, as affecting a limited number of creatures do nothing.

Recently I used Holy word on an Insect plague. As I am "only" level 15 I stunned and paralyzed them, so they did fall to the ground and were prone.


Okay, since it did get necroed, and nobody ever mentioned it, I'm going to bring in an animal science major's perspective.

Yes, a snake can be made prone. When snakes fight, specifically when they bite, they arch their spines (basically their whole body), draw at least a third of their length into a coil or straight up from the ground, then fire their muscles, lunge/spring forward, and strike. A snake going prone would be when it either voluntarily falls back to the ground as it dodges or disengages, OR being somehow clobbered into a sprawled out spread of it's length outside its previously intended configuration. From growing up on a farm that snakes would occasionally slither onto, I can also attest, that yes, it's much harder to shoot a "prone snake" than one that's reared back or coiled up.

You want to give a snake the ranged AC bonus during normal movement, fine, but when it's engaged in a fight, that suckers not as low to the ground as it can get. If it doesn't confuse the issue to much, I visualize the state of a snake being prone similar to a snake being stunned, thought they are mechanically distinct.

Also, for similar reasons, yes, the ooze can be prone. It has to mound up or extend some part of itself to make contact with an attack. At that moment it's not an inert liquid, it's more a viscous semi-solid. An "ooze" as the name clearly states. When an ooze, slime, etc. gets made prone, whatever surface tension or cohesion it had, temporarily disperses, and it does puddle or spread out more.

Like Diego's example of a possible way to prone a swarm as well. Won't matter as much though, because the properties of swarms will still negate or reduce any damage, even if the attacks are more accurate.

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