Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 4
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I recently brushed up on the topic, so here's the technical answer. That being said, I'm not a rule enforcer type of guy. I'm all for common sense, individual judgment, and for what makes a good game.
A proximity haunt is triggered when you enter in the haunt's area of effect.
The area-of-effect SHOULD be listed right in the stat-block for the haunt.
How the area-of-effect is calculated is by 5-ft. per CR.
Haunts don't have to be radius, so you can theoretically stretch that area-of-effect down a corridor. That makes for a kinda big area sometimes.
ALL THIS BEING SAID: haunts are a manifestation of negative, and even malevolent emotions and feelings (i.e. there is not always an intelligence behind them, but I'd argue there is an intent there that doesn't exist in a trap). I wouldn't begrudge a GM letting the group wander into the area-of-effect before the tell-tale notice check is rolled. If the haunt starts in the very first 5-feet of the area-of-effect the entire haunt is fairly easy (too easy) to avoid. That's why I think GM good judgment is necessary when determining where in the area you want to start that notice check.
Hope that helps!
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Sounds good to me. The only haunt I know causes its victims to fall asleep... Best have water breathing up or it's an insta-kill if the save is failed. OK, elves might be safe. But at the higher tiers players probably take proper precautions.
If it's standard sleep, damage such as the first round of drowning, would wake you back up, just hope you can hit air before the next round, since obviously, you're out of breath if you're drowning.
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I recently brushed up on the topic, so here's the technical answer. That being said, I'm not a rule enforcer type of guy. I'm all for common sense, individual judgment, and for what makes a good game.
A proximity haunt is triggered when you enter in the haunt's area of effect.
The area-of-effect SHOULD be listed right in the stat-block for the haunt.
How the area-of-effect is calculated is by 5-ft. per CR.
Haunts don't have to be radius, so you can theoretically stretch that area-of-effect down a corridor. That makes for a kinda big area sometimes.
ALL THIS BEING SAID: haunts are a manifestation of negative, and even malevolent emotions and feelings (i.e. there is not always an intelligence behind them, but I'd argue there is an intent there that doesn't exist in a trap). I wouldn't begrudge a GM letting the group wander into the area-of-effect before the tell-tale notice check is rolled. If the haunt starts in the very first 5-feet of the area-of-effect the entire haunt is fairly easy (too easy) to avoid. That's why I think GM good judgment is necessary when determining where in the area you want to start that notice check.
Hope that helps!
Interesting that you responded as this is one of your scenarios that I'm prepping lol ... I know the players that will be at my table (including my VC) and I want to give him a fun and non-easy game lol .. so while I know I cannot change mooks/npcs ... Changing the triggers on the haunts could be a way to spice up the scenario
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Sounds good to me. The only haunt I know causes its victims to fall asleep... Best have water breathing up or it's an insta-kill if the save is failed. OK, elves might be safe. But at the higher tiers players probably take proper precautions.If it's standard sleep, damage such as the first round of drowning, would wake you back up, just hope you can hit air before the next round, since obviously, you're out of breath if you're drowning.
I was wrong that it would be an insta-kill... but per the drowning rules you go unconscious after a failed CON check. I'd give the player a save versus the deep slumber followed by a CON check if the save fails. If they make their CON check they wake up and can have an action (and may continue to do so as long as they continue to make their CON checks). If they don't they really fall unconscious and will die unless their friends can save them PDQ.
Drowning Unconscious characters must begin making Constitution checks immediately upon being submerged (or upon becoming unconscious if the character was conscious when submerged). Once she fails one of these checks, she immediately drops to –1 (or loses 1 additional hit point, if her total is below –1). On the following round, she drowns.
All this is assuming the haunt's attack is a sleep-effect...
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 4
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Interesting that you responded as this is one of your scenarios that I'm prepping lol ...
I guessed as much. :D
I'm really concerned about the number of haunts in ratio to traditional encounters, so I'm watching for feedback. I want to serve up the best possible scenario. If it's not perfect, I want to fix the next one.
I know the players that will be at my table (including my VC) and I want to give him a fun and non-easy game lol .. so while I know I cannot change mooks/npcs ... Changing the triggers on the haunts could be a way to spice up the scenario
Right!
So bear this in mind. There is no set rule about where inside that area-of-effect you start the haunt. Think of the notice check as like lighting the firecracker. I'd let them get good and inside of that area-of-effect and then "light the fuse".
And that is not bending any rules. That's all kosher with the standardized haunt rules in the GameMastery Guide. There is no set rule when the haunt is launched with a proximity trigger, other than they're inside the area-of-effect. Let 'em get close. Then you have more targets and potential saving throws.
EDIT: The rules dictate where it can be triggered. YOU determine WHEN it's triggered. That's the nuance.
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Interesting that you responded as this is one of your scenarios that I'm prepping lol ...I guessed as much. :D
I'm really concerned about the number of haunts in ratio to traditional encounters, so I'm watching for feedback. I want to serve up the best possible scenario. If it's not perfect, I want to fix the next one.
I know the players that will be at my table (including my VC) and I want to give him a fun and non-easy game lol .. so while I know I cannot change mooks/npcs ... Changing the triggers on the haunts could be a way to spice up the scenarioRight!
So bear this in mind. There is no set rule about where inside that area-of-effect you start the haunt. Think of the notice check as like lighting the firecracker. I'd let them get good and inside of that area-of-effect and then "light the fuse".
And that is not bending any rules. That's all kosher with the standardized haunt rules in the GameMastery Guide. There is no set rule when the haunt is launched with a proximity trigger, other than they're inside the area-of-effect. Let 'em get close. Then you have more targets and potential saving throws.
EDIT: The rules dictate where it can be triggered. YOU determine WHEN it's triggered. That's the nuance.
Lol
Ok .. so in that theme...
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 4
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Hmmmmmmmmmm.
I have to be careful. I was jumping to a conclusion. I took another look at the GameMastery Guide.
Haunts with proximity triggers are triggered as soon as a creature enters the Area-Of-Effect. Darn, I was wrong. I'm sorry. I gave some bad advice in the earlier post.
Touch triggers go off as soon as you touch the specified object.
Haunts will not go outside of a room, regardless of their range. That is also a fact. What I wrote was:
The haunt doesn’t require a PC to touch the water, but triggers only when they show some interest in the pool and its contents.
So you have the means to wait until they all enter the room. Nevertheless, once they show a concerted interest in the pool, the haunt should launch. And once it goes off, it's going to hit that entire room.
That's the RAW interpretation, and the way the scenario was written.
I'm sorry, your plan may hinge on how impulsive they are in investigating the pool. If they're cautious, you might not get one in the water first.
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Drowning Unconscious characters must begin making Constitution checks immediately upon being submerged (or upon becoming unconscious if the character was conscious when submerged). Once she fails one of these checks, she immediately drops to –1 (or loses 1 additional hit point, if her total is below –1). On the following round, she drowns.All this is assuming the haunt's attack is a sleep-effect...
Ah, memory failure on my part. Memory was that you drop to 0. So, you were essentially correct, unless he's saved by allies.
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Hmmmmmmmmmm.
I have to be careful. I was jumping to a conclusion. I took another look at the GameMastery Guide.
Haunts with proximity triggers are triggered as soon as a creature enters the Area-Of-Effect. Darn, I was wrong. I'm sorry. I gave some bad advice in the earlier post.
Touch triggers go off as soon as you touch the specified object.
** spoiler omitted **
but but ... I wanted to take out the Tiefling Magus ... cause that's the VCs pc ... and it would be fun
However, I'll have to make myself notes so I don't pull off my original plan anyway lol..
Jim, thanks for looking things up and for educating me :)
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but but ... I wanted to take out the Tiefling Magus ... cause that's the VCs pc ... and it would be fun
Maybe you'll get lucky and he will just jump in.
hehe that would be awesome .. hrmm ... maybe i could add an invisible "lurch" that would push someone in the waters and trigger it
hrmmmm
Oh Jim ... new idea for ya for the next scenario ;)
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The whole sleep haunt thing comes up in certain mid-level season 2 scenario. If you haven't played a scenario , don't read this:
Surprise Round: Haunt manifests, save vs. Deep Slumber. Those who fail fall unconscious, are reduced to 0 hit points and slip below the 3-ft of water.
Round 1: If your turn comes up before the monsters, you get a con check. Fail the con check and you go to -1 hp. If/when the monsters (sometimes a swarm) deal damage to you, you're at -x hp anyway.
Round 2: If you are dying at the start of your turn while underwater, you're dead.
Of course, before your turn comes up in round 2 someone in your party could pull your head above the water and the danger is averted.
For the record, I've only ever killed an Eidolon with this haunt (take that WelbyBumpus!). I go out of my way to explain the drowning rules in full detail after the haunt manifests so I don't kill any PCs with a subset of rules that rarely comes up.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 4
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@ Purple Fluffy CatBunnyGnome (and whoever is curious)
I remember why I designed it that way.
Hinojai Spoilers
Basically, I was hedging my bet against the PCs getting really cowardly. My own home group can be that way. "Oh, it's water. It's got to be poisoned, diseased, or turns you into a goldfish. I'm not touching it.
The way the pool haunt is set up, that whole room is gonna get it. In that sense, I felt like there was no chance for the haunt to go wasted and unused.
Now.. I love the idea of trapping someone under ice. In retrospect I might have gone with a touch trigger on the treasure. My only issue with that is that doesn't really fit the theme or the story. After all, they dumped the treasure down there because the haunt acts as an unintentional guard. Ehhh.. there are pros and cons either way.
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I don't like haunts. I think they should be done away with in PFS as only certain type of characters can effect them. As I understand Haunts there are only 2 ways to effect them. 1 Chanel Engery or 2 Talk to the Haunt and if it does no attack you [which all the Haunts that I have run into have,] negate why the haunt is a haunt in the first place.
I don't like type of creatures that the PC's have no or very little chance of defeating due to design of the game designers. Tough monsters are no problem but creatures that can kill with no chance for the player to save out from have no place in PFS IMO.
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I don't like haunts. I think they should be done away with in PFS as only certain type of characters can effect them. As I understand Haunts there are only 2 ways to effect them. 1 Chanel Engery or 2 Talk to the Haunt and if it does no attack you [which all the Haunts that I have run into have,] negate why the haunt is a haunt in the first place.
I don't like type of creatures that the PC's have no or very little chance of defeating due to design of the game designers. Tough monsters are no problem but creatures that can kill with no chance for the player to save out from have no place in PFS IMO.
The last haunt I saw was solved in 1 round by an adamantine lance. If the haunt is a problem, go around it. And PFS by its very nature has some things that certain parties are better suited to handling.
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I don't like haunts. I think they should be done away with in PFS as only certain type of characters can effect them. As I understand Haunts there are only 2 ways to effect them. 1 Chanel Engery or 2 Talk to the Haunt and if it does no attack you [which all the Haunts that I have run into have,] negate why the haunt is a haunt in the first place.
I don't like type of creatures that the PC's have no or very little chance of defeating due to design of the game designers. Tough monsters are no problem but creatures that can kill with no chance for the player to save out from have no place in PFS IMO.
Holy water also affects haunts, and is relatively cheap.
Additionally, for lower levels, haunts will not usually be triggered by proximity alone, but rather by a specific set condition (see First Steps Part II) and even in Haunting of Hinojai, a level 5-9 scenario, there were some very specific triggers that weren't likely, and some proximity triggers.
You also get a perception check to act in the "surprise round" for proximity triggers and Haunts usually go on Initiative 10 or 11.
Most haunts don't have a ton of HP, so a few vials of holy water usually takes care of them.
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Venture-Captain, Missouri—Cape Girardeau
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I GMed a game recently where the party had established a routine for taking care of haunts. Since they were specifically warned there might be haunts (via the handout and an NPC!), they sent the Zen Archer Monk forward with his high Perception, while the Cleric readied an action to Channel Positive Energy and the Alchemist prepared a ready action to throw Holy Water. Out of three haunts, only one triggered (proximity) without being detected first and ALL of them were neutralized fairly quickly. They just became a road bump for the rest of the encounters.
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I GMed a game recently where the party had established a routine for taking care of haunts. Since they were specifically warned there might be haunts (via the handout and an NPC!), they sent the Zen Archer Monk forward with his high Perception, while the Cleric readied an action to Channel Positive Energy and the Alchemist prepared a ready action to throw Holy Water. Out of three haunts, only one triggered (proximity) without being detected first and ALL of them were neutralized fairly quickly. They just became a road bump for the rest of the encounters.
I thought you couldn't ready actions before rolling initiative. Basically, even if the monk perceived the haunt and alerted the rest of the party, the cleric & alchemist didn't see it, and couldn't react in time.
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I don't like haunts. I think they should be done away with in PFS as only certain type of characters can effect them. As I understand Haunts there are only 2 ways to effect them. 1 Chanel Engery or 2 Talk to the Haunt and if it does no attack you [which all the Haunts that I have run into have,] negate why the haunt is a haunt in the first place.
I don't like type of creatures that the PC's have no or very little chance of defeating due to design of the game designers. Tough monsters are no problem but creatures that can kill with no chance for the player to save out from have no place in PFS IMO.
Holy water also affects haunts, and is relatively cheap.
Additionally, for lower levels, haunts will not usually be triggered by proximity alone, but rather by a specific set condition (see First Steps Part II) and even in Haunting of Hinojai, a level 5-9 scenario, there were some very specific triggers that weren't likely, and some proximity triggers.
You also get a perception check to act in the "surprise round" for proximity triggers and Haunts usually go on Initiative 10 or 11.
Most haunts don't have a ton of HP, so a few vials of holy water usually takes care of them.
A haunt can be affected by any form of positive energy, not just channeling. Thus, any healing spell (including the ubiquitous Wand of CLW) will damage it.
There's also a handy little item called a Haunt Siphon. It's from Pathfinder Adventure Path #43: "The Haunting of Harrowstone"
Haunt Siphon
Aura faint necromancy; CL 3rd
Slot none; Price 400 gp; Weight 1 lb.
DESCRIPTION
These glass vials are held within stylized cold-iron casings etched with strange runes, necromantic designs, or other eldritch markings. Within the vial roils a small wisp of white vapor, churning as if caught in a miniature vortex of air.
To capture a haunt’s energies within a haunt siphon, you need only twist the metal casing to open the vial in the same round that the haunt manifests (a standard action)—this can be before or after the haunt has acted. You must be within the haunt’s area of influence to use a haunt siphon. When you activate a haunt siphon, it deals 3d6 points of positive energy damage to a single haunt. If it deals enough damage to the haunt to reduce the haunt’s hit points to 0, the mist inside the haunt siphon glows green—if it does not reduce the haunt to 0 hit points, the haunt siphon is still expended and becomes nonmagical. It may take multiple haunt siphons to destroy powerful haunts. A haunt that is neutralized by a haunt siphon takes a –5 penalty on its caster level check to manifest again after its reset time passes.
A haunt siphon that neutralizes a haunt can no longer be used to harm haunts, but it can be used as a grenadelike splash weapon that deals 1d6 points of negative energy damage with a direct hit. Every creature within 5 feet of the point where the haunt siphon hits takes 1 point of negative energy damage from the splash.
CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS
Craft Wondrous Item, gentle repose; Cost 200 gp
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Since they were specifically warned there might be haunts (via the handout and an NPC!), they sent the Zen Archer Monk forward with his high Perception, while the Cleric readied an action to Channel Positive Energy and the Alchemist prepared a ready action to throw Holy Water.
You where a lot more lenient then I would have been. Even if they know there are Haunts, they don't know where they are, so they would still be surprised when they ran into one.
You can't notice a Haunt until the Surprised wound it manifests, unless you have Detect undead or detect alignment spells of the appropriate type allow an observer a chance to notice a haunt even before it manifests (allowing that character the appropriate check to notice the haunt, but at a –4 penalty).
Unless they have those spells up, they can't notice them until the surprise round, and then you go by initiative. The Haunt goes on 10, if the person sees it before 10, and the cleric goes before 10 then you can destroy it.
On Holy Water, it is slight reach, but Haunts can be damaged with any source of Positive energy, and Holy Water is made by the Bless water spell which infuses it with Positive energy.
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You can't notice a Haunt until the Surprised wound it manifests, unless you have Detect undead or detect alignment spells of the appropriate type allow an observer a chance to notice a haunt even before it manifests (allowing that character the appropriate check to notice the haunt, but at a –4 penalty).
The last scenario I ran that had haunts, had a perception check to hear a reference to the haunt; like the sound of pleading, or kids crying that kindo of thing. But I agree that the perception check isn't to "see" the haunt.
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The last scenario I ran that had haunts, had a perception check to hear a reference to the haunt; like the sound of pleading, or kids crying that kindo of thing. But I agree that the perception check isn't to "see" the haunt.
That is how it is supposed to happen, but still according to the Haunt Rules, that can't be done until the Surprise round the Haunt Manifests.
Although haunts function like traps, they are difficult to detect since they cannot be easily observed until the round in which they manifest. Detect undead or detect alignment spells of the appropriate type allow an observer a chance to notice a haunt even before it manifests (allowing that character the appropriate check to notice the haunt, but at a –4 penalty).
You can notice before they manifest with the above mentioned spells.
When a haunt is triggered, its effects manifest at initiative rank 10 in a surprise round. All characters in the haunt’s proximity can attempt to notice the haunt at the start of this surprise round by making a notice check.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 4
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Another observation in defense of haunts:
Regardless of the potential area-of-effect (i.e. which is determined by CR, 5-feet per CR in fact), a haunt is still limited to the room in which they occur.
So a powerful haunt in a 30-ft.-by-30-ft room is still confined to that room.
If you sense it activating with a Perception Check, and you can act before it does on the surprise round- you can just outrun it with a simple move action.
Yes Ladies and Gentlemen, you can just run if you see it going off. Get out of it's area-of-effect!
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Where does it say they can be affected by Holy Water? Ive never heard of that working.
You don't have to explicitly say that holy water affects or does not affect haunts.
Haunts are basically a merging of a Trap and an Undead creature. Detect undead sees haunts. Positive Energy effects haunts.
Bless water infuses a vial of water with positive energy. It affects undead by doing 2d4 damage to them.
Some rules you have to extrapolate.
In this case, I don't believe it is a reach at all as Dragonmoon suggested.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 4
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Yes Ladies and Gentlemen, you can just run if you see it going off. Get out of it's area-of-effect!This was the common tactic used by our group that went through your scenario.
To good affect?
Won't spoil much, but just to be safe..
And I really wanted four haunts, because you know- its a haunted house.
But I've been watching for reviews like a hawk, because I honestly don't know if the ratio of encounters is 'right'. Feel free to PM if you'd feel more comfortable!
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I think at best the holy water working should be situational. If the trigger is something you hear, you likely have no target with which to splash the water on.
Also Im glad to see some other people here treat Haunts as particularly difficult challenges that I think they are supposed to be. I was beginning to get a little worried I might wind up with a bunch of people who think Im running things incorrectly, but now my faith has been restored. :P
Rise of the Runelords has some pretty nasty Haunts. I've been particularly fond of them since running The Skinsaw Murders last year.
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I think at best the holy water working should be situational.
Absolutely you are correct here. If you can't see it, you can pick a square to dowse with the water, and hope the haunt is in it.
And in other cases, some haunts need you to damage some specific physical thing.
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Venture-Captain, Missouri—Cape Girardeau
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Since they were specifically warned there might be haunts (via the handout and an NPC!), they sent the Zen Archer Monk forward with his high Perception, while the Cleric readied an action to Channel Positive Energy and the Alchemist prepared a ready action to throw Holy Water.You where a lot more lenient then I would have been. Even if they know there are Haunts, they don't know where they are, so they would still be surprised when they ran into one.
You can't notice a Haunt until the Surprised wound it manifests, unless you have Detect undead or detect alignment spells of the appropriate type allow an observer a chance to notice a haunt even before it manifests (allowing that character the appropriate check to notice the haunt, but at a –4 penalty).
Unless they have those spells up, they can't notice them until the surprise round, and then you go by initiative. The Haunt goes on 10, if the person sees it before 10, and the cleric goes before 10 then you can destroy it.
On Holy Water, it is slight reach, but Haunts can be damaged with any source of Positive energy, and Holy Water is made by the Bless water spell which infuses it with Positive energy.
I should have clarified: The Zen Archer has a base Initiative of +12... he always acts before the haunt. So, yes, it came down to an initiative check between the cleric and the Haunt.
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But I've been watching for reviews like a hawk, because I honestly don't know if the ratio of encounters is 'right'.
Personally, I liked the scenario. I just wish there was more. More haunts. More varied non-corporeal undead. I would have loved to see this scenario developed into a full module with ghosts, and spectres, etc. It would have been a great Halloween mod to run. Even still, I liked it and once I get the chance to GM it to experience the other side of the screen, I will write an overall review. Nice job Jim!
What differentiates a primary effect from a secondary effect?
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 4
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What differentiates a primary effect from a secondary effect?
That's a very tricky question. In fact its a great question.
I'm going to try to answer, but I might be a bit clumsy, but bear with me.
A primary effect for a haunt can be physical, but in this case its still fear based. So a paladin is not affected by it. However that physical (but fear based) effect can do something that indirectly affects the paladin.
For example: a haunt that triggers a telekinetic effect that throws around characters and objects will not grab or slam a paladin into a wall. It might however pick up an object and throw it at a paladin, injuring them. In this example, what is injuring the paladin is not telekinesis or 'force', but rather the anvil that sailing towards their head at high velocity.
Using that same example, the haunt cannot use the effect to bullrush the paladin. It can however bullrush his ally into the paladin.
Another example: A haunt makes an entire room burst into flame. It does not affect the paladin, because its fear based. It is however physical. So if the paladin were standing in a patch of 'real' oil that had been spilled on the floor, that oil can ignite- and that real oil can produce real flames that will injure the paladin.
The logic is a little tricky sometimes.