Is an (effective) gun-wielding, sneak-attacking rogue able to me made?


Advice


I'd like to make a sort of politician-that-is-more-dangerous-than-he-looks for my friend's homebrew campaign. He's going to be soft-spoken and articulate, but very underhanded and power-hungry. As the campaign is steam-punk...ish, guns are a vital part. We've been told we'll be able to have advanced firearms by 5th level or so, and we're starting at 2nd.

Should I just go straight gunslinger, or can I possibly make a rogue that wields a gun effectively?


It depends on what you mean by "effective." You certainly can make a rogue that uses guns. As with all ranged rogues, you will have a problem getting your sneak attack damage consistently. The main benefit of guns (using touch AC) is often moot when you get your sneak attack damage. You will also have to take Exotic Weapon Proficiency and should probably take Gunsmith as well, or dip a level of Gunslinger.

I think you should just go with the Mysterious Stranger archetype for Gunslinger. This will allow you to pump CHA rather than WIS, which should make you a better talker. It doesn't sound like you want to be a trap finder/disabler, so that might be enough.


Ask your GM if he accepts the "Ranged Flank" feat in his campaign. This would make a gunslinger/rogue build really effective. With a little positionig you could sneak attack almost all the time.
I would aim for a gunslinger 13/rogue 7 build.
First get 5 levels of gunslinger (to get Gun Training an a huge boost in damage output) then change to rogue (sniper archetype). But check with your GM if he lets you use the "Accuracy" sniper class feature for guns, too. Build up rogue to lvl 7 (for 4D6 sneak attack) or maybe lvl 8 for Improved Uncanny Dodge, but you won't be in melee that much anyways...
And then switch back to gunslinger for the rest of your career...


You can get grit and firearm proficiency with rogue talents, if the guy has money I would use a gun with multiple barrels instead of loading quickly.


I was mistaken earlier when I said that you lose the main benefit from using a firearm if you can deliver a sneak attack. For some reason I was thinking that touch AC does not include a dex bonus when it actually does. That means that you do get a benefit from using a firearm while sneak attacking.

Getting the sneak attack at range is still going to be a big hurdle though.


Don't forget, once you get leadership and get your cohorts to carry around a catapult/trebuchet you'll have a long-range sneak attack - based on the Perception rules you'll probably get a few shots in even after taking the -20 to hide after a shot (see Sniping).

Before anyone takes me seriously...I would just make a rogue and use a talent for the firearm proficiency like rat_bastard suggests.


Of course you can gain firearm proficency and grit by spending feat slots. But it's not like you're losing caster levels when getting some levels as a gunslinger. What you essentially need is "Gun Training", gained at lvl 5. This class feature gives you a damage bonus equal to your DEX bonus on each firearm attack! So we're talking 5+ more dmg per shot. As DEX is also primary attribute for rogue, you might well end up with DEX 30something in endgame, adding +10 to your firearm damage.
Go rogue all the way after that, but imho Gunslinger 5 is a must.

You lose Master Strike, 2D6 sneak attack damage and trap sense bonus (which is replaced by Deadly Range anyway) by giving up 5 lvls of rogue, but you gain 5xD10 HP, full +5 BAB, all level 1 & 3 deeds, grit points based on you WIS, as well as access to firearms and all martial weapons.
Not a bad deal im my eyes.

Adressing the ranged sneak attack, I still recommend the Sniper Rogue archetype.
Deadly Range (Ex) will increase the range of Sneak attacks for 10' every three levels, starting by lvl 3.


invest in sniper goggles for any ranged rogue. Sneak attack at any range.


I was thinking quick draw, pocket pistols and quickdraw sheaths. Bluff the gun into your hand and shoot.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

There are 2 good possibilities:

-1 level gunslinger/ rest rogue
-11 level mysterious stranger/rest ninja

for both i would suggest to take improved feinting and eventually greater, to get your sneak attacks in.

Feats that let you threat ranged are also good.
Eventually opening volley or such stuff too.


Depends on your definition of effective. I'm working on a gunslinger 1/maneuver master 1/bandit 10 in PFS right now that seems to be doing fine. Pistols are such short range anyways that you can get away with a flurry of maneuvers to dirty trick blind a target then sneak attack shoot them in the face.

Liberty's Edge

If you have access to 3pp material, there's a quite nice archetype for ranged rogues in Rite's second tactical archetype books.


ShadowcatX wrote:
If you have access to 3pp material, there's a quite nice archetype for ranged rogues in Rite's second tactical archetype books.

Hey, thanks! As the author of that archetype (and co-author of the book), I will note that the most important part of that archetype can be found here. It's my replacement for sneak attack, and one of the explicit goals was to make rogues able to A) get some bonus damage at range more often and B) get rid of the "buddy system" that melee rogues currently must rely on.

It's been playtested for a long time too :D

But no matter what, you should probably take a level of gunslinger. The ability to fix the gun easily is huge.

Another option is a ranger that has firearms. They can be pretty darn roguish. An Urban Guide Skirmisher Ranger (that's 3 archetypes) can do the rogue job pretty damn well, and you'll get a boost from damage with Guide's Focus, as well as not being magical.

Liberty's Edge

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And now I know what the verbal component to the "Summon Cheapy" spell consists of.

On topic: Gunslinger is great as a 1 or 5 level dip.


In truth, I was planning to post the link to the Opportunities Aplenty in this thread today anyways <_<


I really don't care for gunslinger as a 1 level dip since it essentially gets you access to a buggy crossbow. However if you're willing to go in for 5 levels the benefits are sizable.

More importantly you say you'll have advanced firearms by level 5 in that case is he also ruling that guns are simple weapons? If not I'd highly advise just going all out into Gunslinger for 5 levels at least and dealing with the lesser quantity of skill points you'll have.

If they are simple weapons then perhaps the sword and pistol feat setup might work on a rogue with feint or with the dirty trick feats the real issue is you will need a lot of feats to make it work and I'm not sure you'd have enough to go around.

Shadow Lodge

slacks wrote:
You will also have to take Exotic Weapon Proficiency and should probably take Gunsmith as well, or dip a level of Gunslinger.

Not necessarily. UC has a bit about gun availability, and one of the things mentioned is how if they are more accessible the become martial weapons(commonplace guns), or even simple weapons(guns everywhere).

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