1. Touch spells ignore armor so that is the old stand by to get past high AC-shocking grasp being a favorite...
2. spells that require reflex saves
3. cmb maneuvers-especially grapple.
4. sunder-no armor no problems
5. I think part of your problem is you have a lot of PC's its hard to build encounters with that many PC's especially if they don't all build to the same power lvl.
Spells that require will saves work very nicely too. At 4 HD they're still vulnerable to sleep, scare, cause fear, and a whole bunch of others.
Remember that AC is not a characters only defense. That being said, nothing is wrong with party splurging on high AC as that becomes their tactical focus. They WANT to be able to stand toe to toe with a troll.... So let them. Just not necessarily every battle.
Combat Maneuvers are probably a good idea, trip is always good. Or if you want to lessen their AC, try sundering all that fancy new Full Plate (depends on your DM style).
Throw some low-level wizards at the party... Level 1 spells are fantastic. Grease the melee characters (none of them sound like they have high reflex). Obscuring Mist. Silent Image. Or level 2 spells have some good ones too.. Including my personal favorite, Glitterdust (how good are their will saves?). Other good ones to use would be Charm person, Hold Person, Hideous Laughter.. If you have ranged attackers, use Entangle or Web to slow the PCs down.
With 7 (thats a lot) PCs, you should be able to throw some big groups of stuff at them without worrying about them dying. Don't be trapped by throwing a couple big monsters or enemies at them, as action economy (2 trolls vs 7 pcs? 2 actions vs 7 actions) will always be in the PCs favor. Instead try something like 1 troll, 1-2 wizards, and some gunslingers.
Splash effects are your friends here, too. A bunch of fire-loving goblins with Alchemist's Fire would ruin their day (as would a few bomb-wielding alchemists). Actually, considering the party size, both.
|
Spells that require will saves work very nicely too. At 4 HD they're still vulnerable to sleep, scare, cause fear, and a whole bunch of others.
Also, Mutagen and Shield together should be something they've really only got one fight a day, maybe two if they push it. The durations involved are...rather low, especially Shield.
And Trols have one of the lower to hit bonuses for a CR 5 in the Bestiary. Check out a Barbed Devil, or Large Air Elemental for just a couple of higher attack bonus critters.
Touch attacks, ranged and melee, work well.
At low levels, nothing like a natural hazard such as a stream, with deep holes, to make the heavily armored rethink their gear. Have the land riddled with pesky little streams the character will be in and out of his armor all game long. Of course, this can slow the game down for others but it provides lots of role playing.
Mud reduces the land speed.
A heat wave, and risk of dehydration, the character can become sick and fatigued.
Just a few ideas.
Another simple trick is to string the party out in a line. The group could be in dense wooded area, or with brambles that limits the ability to work together. Hit the front tank with slippery muddy hillock trap, that requires a acrobatic check and possibly a reflex save. While you do this perhaps a low level caster throws a mirror imagine spell and/or darkness spell over the middle of the group. It really doesn't matter what the spell is just keep the group confused. Round it out with an attack on back of the line. Everyone involved and few can aid each other.
|
In my opinion, environmental hazards and traps aren't used enough. As they travel, bring on a heat wave or cold snap. Suddenly that metal armor is not so nice.
Also, they don't have to fight. Look in the "make them cry" DM thread on these boards for some creative traps.
Then again, they have put some considerable effort into their AC, so let it shine in a fight. Then let those other light armored PC's save their butts when that armor becomes a serious liability.
To avoid the hassle of killing the other PCs too easily with your tailored kill-the-AC-beasts encounters, get monsters or enemies that are out to get one or more of them specifically. Someone they killed has a brother, a mother, or a cousin who is really powerful and can have "unpleasantnesses" arranged.
Fireball for the win! :)
Sit down and talk to the players about how their AC has gotten out of hand, and work with them for ways to lower it to something more reasonable.
The players will find this more reasonable than you suddenly altering the campaign to thwart their high AC, and you'll find the game overall more fun too.
That being said, it is fair game to use some critters who don't base their attacks on AC.
If you aren't going to ask the PC's to tone it back though- don't go overboard with it.
The purpose of high AC is to not get hit. Don't just alter the campaign to make their hard work and investment suddenly worthless. All that does is 1) ruin the game for them and 2) make them worry that anything they become good at you'll just rearrange and skimp them out of in the future.
-S
Traps. Traps. And more Traps. And put them in situations requiring the use of Climb or Acrobatics.
just wait until the PCs are level 16. some of the PCs in my game are running around with ACs in the 48-50 range. That makes them very hard to hit. :-(
So, I have a couple of super high AC people in my game at the moment,
With mutagens up they're running around AC 20-22 and have the option to use Shield extracts which push their AC up another 4 points.
I wouldn't consider those to be crazy high. They are well armored but not impregnable. A 17 to hit still means you are hitting 1 out of five rolls. When you get to the always need a 20 point then start to worry.
Apparently people are willing to club together to get the combat monsters full plate really early in the game[.] What else could I use to challenge these 3 rather crazy characters while letting the other PCs not instantly die?
So, part of the problem is they've pooled their resources to armor half the party and left the other half vulnerable? Um, that seems to be their problem not yours. I wouldn't avoid the soft underbelly just because they chose to concentrate on buying armor for the melee characters. They heavily armored the front, don't think you only solution is to attack their strong point. I'm not saying go after them to be vengeful, but if they have an obvious vulnerability they need to fix it.
Again as to going after their strong point, mutagen only lasts 10 min/level, shield only lasts 1 min/level. Do they only adventure for about 45 minutes a day? Make sure encounters hit them even when they are low on resources. A long series of minor encounters is sometimes more effective than one massive assault.
20-25 AC is what level 4 PCs should be at. I mean a fighter with out magic armor can get 26 AC with Full plate, shield, shield focus, dodge and 16 dex. A Wizard can have the same dex with Mage Armor and Shield using the dodge feat as well for an AC of 22. The rogue in chain shirt with 20 Dex and dodge is AC 20. The Cleric is about a 22 with same stuff as the fighter but lower dex bonus and lacking dodge due to fewer feats, it's dodge or shield focus. And this is with no magic item to boost AC. By 4th having +1 armor is possible, possibly a ring of protection or amulet of natural armor. So even if the group didn't go as defensive the magic would still bring them up to the same AC.
They don't have that good of ac.
Uhm, how's the Touch AC? How 'bout Will saves? Have you considered swarm attacks?
Attack other things.
at fourth level Daze still works. very effective lock-down if used right, and a couple of first level adepts can spam it to buy your minions a couple of turns. of course once you've been affected by daze you're immune for one minute, but even so have a pair of 1st level casters throwing it around at whoever's currently being swarmed and you'll be amazed how many of them scramble to take iron will at 5th level.
Attack other things.
I second this don't fight the way the part would want you to...Have the enemies appear in the rear or the flanks and go after softer targets(if there intelligent). If you where intelligent and your option was the massive guy in full plate or the guy wearing robes you know hurls all different types of spells which would you chose(especially if you know you can take one out quickly). Don't be a dick about it but throwing tactics that go against party concept can really make things more challenging.
22 is not high
20+level is not high
no panic
By 4th level, my fighter had an AC of 27 and this was my first fighter. It's not that hard to get an AC in the upper 20's that early.
From here on, I'll be focusing on DR and upping the AC when I can. He doesn't hit hard but he's always the last guy standing.
As DM don't forget to pay attention to party wealth (pg 399 CRB). At 4th level, a PC can expect to have $6000 GP worth of equipment and by the time level 5 comes around the average wealth should be $10,500. Is the group ahead of the average wealth guidelines, if so trim the coin and gems awarded but provide items that need to be sold for coin. Selling treasure is at 50% (pg 140 CRB) Rather than give 2000GP in coin provide a +1 longsword ($2315 GP)instead. The local merchant is only going to pay $1157 tops...mayble less with RP the scenario and skill checks.
Of course, you could do something completely unconventional...
port in the Squad Rules from Star Wars Saga Edition.
Three critters of the same type.
Increase base size of critter by one category.
Double base critter's HP
Base critter TAB gets +4 bonus as other members of squad are aiding another for attacks.
All melee attacks are considered melee area attacks: targets suffers half damage on a miss, unless have Evasion.
All ranged attacks have a one square splash: all creatures adjacent to the main target also suffer damage, equal to what the main target suffers.
Squads can't be grabbed or grappled.
Area attacks against a squad deal +2 die of damage.
For example, a squad of Owlbears, using Pathfinder OGC:
XP 1,200
N Gargantuan magical beast
Init +5; Senses darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, scent; Perception +12
DEFENSE
AC 15, touch 10, flat-footed 14 (+1 Dex, +5 natural, –1 size)
hp 94 (5d10+20)
Fort +10, Ref +5, Will +2
OFFENSE
Speed 30 ft.
Melee 2 claws +12 (1d6+4 plus grab), bite +12 (1d6+4)
Space 20 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
STATISTICS
Str 19, Dex 12, Con 18, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 10
Base Atk +9; CMB +14 (+18 grapple); CMD 21 (25 vs. trip)
Feats Improved Initiative, Great Fortitude, Skill Focus (Perception)
Skills Perception +12
|
As others have stated a 20 AC is not very high. Plus be happy your players are focusing on defense rather than high DPR because defense is less effective.
I would highly suggest not tailor building your encounters to destroy them. Players shouldn't be punished for building strong characters.
You may want to try increasing your ECLs by 1 or more. After experimenting you will discover what your PCs can handle. Not only will this allow you to build more challenging encounters that are still balanced to the players, but they will also feel rewarded for obtaining experience/treasure faster.
If you do want to make an encounter built to destroy them, then create one that makes sense within the game. An example might be the PCs fighting a villain and the villain escapes. Since the villain knows the PCs are armored, he hires an infamous troupe of double-pistol toting pistolero mercenaries. The PCs now have an intelligent villain and a belly full of lead...
|
|
Aid Another is your friend.
Aid Another
In melee combat, you can help a friend attack or defend by distracting or interfering with an opponent. If you're in position to make a melee attack on an opponent that is engaging a friend in melee combat, you can attempt to aid your friend as a standard action. You make an attack roll against AC 10. If you succeed, your friend gains either a +2 bonus on his next attack roll against that opponent or a +2 bonus to AC against that opponent's next attack (your choice), as long as that attack comes before the beginning of your next turn. Multiple characters can aid the same friend, and similar bonuses stack.
15 goblins, or kobolds even. Multiple skeletons. Multiple anything. Give some spears. Give some whips. Give some short swords. The ones with whips stand out furthest, the ones with spears in some, and the ones with swords right next to the high AC guys.
AC 10. Any mook can hit THAT.
Then the one guy jacks them up for the hit!
|
|
I agree with the people saying that 20-22 AC isn't high. I suppose that is the AC before taking the mutagen and/or the shield extract, so that their combat AC is around 26-28.
Fastidiously high if the other party members are several points below that but not overwhelming.
I see the choice to make 2 characters that dip 1 level in the alchemist class much more troubling, in particular the Armored Hulk (Barbarian archetype)/alchemist. It seem that your players are more interested in being munchkins than playing a RPG.
At this point you need to check if they are at least honest munchkins. Use the encumbrance rules and check how much gear they are carrying around and its weight.
Remember that they can have only 1 dose of mutagen ready and that it take 1 hour to brew another dose.
With a 1 level dip in a class they can make 1 or 2 shield extract every day. Don't fall in the 15 minute adventuring day trap. Throw multiple middle strength encounters against them in a day.
At least some of the time throw an encounter at them while they are remaking their mutagen. They would have stopped in a dangerous area for 1 hour, while mixing weird smelling concoctions. Someone can and will be attracted by that.
If they get in the habit of retreating to a safe spot every time they make a mutagen moving back and forth will take time. When they are facing intelligent enemies have them react to the this kind of tactic.
A strong force is attacking them in waves? They will either gather all that they have to defeat a wave or flee while the attackers are away.
They could even give the important or valuable but not useful loot to some of them to take away for safekeeping.
The players tactic has his drawbacks. Evidence them.
|
any good grappling monsters (or other combat maneuvers)
Want to scare the bajeezus out of them, have a fighter sunder their equipment! Don't do it more than a couple times though it looks petty otherwise.
anything that can cause them to be flat-footed will help some, as does movement impairing spells and monsters.
Never underestimate the power of conditions. Entangled, Prone, Blinded, Cowering, Exhausted, Fatigued, Grappled, Helpless, Paralyzed, Petrified, and Stunned all modify AC in some way or another.
An Entangled, Blinded, Grappled and Prone PC is just screwed... mmm gives me an idea... >;-)