Why no love for animal familiars?


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I like the concept of familiars but choose to disagree that you need to assume that every wizard is going to go Improved Familiar as soon as they get the chance. You want a homonculus and are willing to blow a feat? BUILD one with the Craft Wondrous Item (or is it Craft Construct? Whatever...) or for that matter if you've got the gold build 5 of them.

And for that matter, why does everyone go monkey if they DO go animal? I'm asking because I did a search of the messageborads under "Familiars" and almost every thread I read was about how great it was to have monkeys 'cause they have hands. Birds can pick up sticks to build nests; why can't THEY be your wand jockey?

I can see by my search that familiars have been done to death in terms of asking: can they get feats, how do they get hit points...etc. Heck, I even STARTED a couple of those threads! But I'm looking for a general discussion of reasons to encourage wizard/witch PCs in my game to consider the familiar and when they do to stick it out w/their animal and not go fancying it up as an imp or pseudodragon or whatever.

I'll start: The last game I was a full player in was a 3.5 game that made it to level 5; I was a sorceress focusing on cold and ice. My familiar was of course a snowy owl. In 3.5 owls could make a charging attack to up the damage on their talons, allowing them to do positive damage w/out magic help. They were also dang near impossible to hear coming. I used my owl on 3 different occasions to do a little damage and throw off enemy casters. Then when she got high enough my sorceress made a little cowl for her owl that gave it an admixture cold ray of frost 3/day. I only got to use it once but I had some serious plans for that game; I was working on going into a pair of prestige classes that would make me the master of ice and an ice elemental, and my familiar was going to get similarly tricked out. Coupled with naturally high stealth and familiar abilities I really thought my little owl would have stood the test of time.

I want to hear your love for the arcane pets.


monkeys have opposable thumbs, just like many improved familiars.
If you have use magic device (UMD) then they will have it aswell.
Give them a wand, cast twice as many spells.

Though I agree that a witch with a pig is so much more fun to play out, especially if you cast that spell-of-animal-cuteness or what's it called on it.

Scarab Sages

I never picked up a familiar because I was always afraid that enemies would target it first. You know, take out the weak link and hurt the caster at the same time. After all, that's what the groups I was in always did. The familiar is certainly easier to kill than the wizard it's attached to (if your familiar is tougher than you, something is wrong). So, although I like the idea of the little buggers, I never wanted to take the chance.


Sorry, I'm one of those who has no use for animal familiars.

I don't GET a familiar until 7th level, and then it's an imp.

Animals just aren't durable -- even with the familiar buffs.

And an imp with the familiar buffs is just nasty.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Obirandiath wrote:
I never picked up a familiar because I was always afraid that enemies would target it first. You know, take out the weak link and hurt the caster at the same time. After all, that's what the groups I was in always did. The familiar is certainly easier to kill than the wizard it's attached to (if your familiar is tougher than you, something is wrong). So, although I like the idea of the little buggers, I never wanted to take the chance.

The familiar should not be that easy to take out. It's got half your hit points (more if you buff it with False Life) and improved evasion to boot. Unless you're first level, in which case your enemy should still be targeting YOU first, it's not that hard to keep them alive.

In my experience, in campaigns that are familiar hostile, specials don't tend to last much longer.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

The push for improved familiars did get something of a boost with the addition of the Witch, for whom the loss of a familiar can be a crippling blow, so they have far greater motivation to upgrade to something tougher.

Scarab Sages

I would actually really like to see an archetype/spell group/prestige class that focuses on weaponizing traditional Familiars.

For example, perhaps you could get a Sorcerer Archetype (with the Arcane bloodline as a requirement) that grants you evolution points to spend on your Familiar (with restrictions to maybe only 1-2 point evolutions), though that would step on the toes of Summoner.

How about something similar (an arcane bloodline wildblood variant) that grants you abilities that amplify your Familiar (example: Level 3 grants an ability that allows your Familiar to use your Full HP total and a few small strength/dex/con buffs).

Or, you could throw in some damage dealing spells. For example, you could create a 1st level spell "Elemental Familiar" that causes your familiar's attacks to deal an extra 1d6 Acid/Cold/Fire/Lightning damage, 1 hour/level duration.

I dunno. I'd like to see something that focuses on familiar weaponizing without the obvious "Give it a wand!"


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Davor: right up my alley! Keep the suggestions flowing.

Obir.: I've had 3 characters over the last 10 years with familiars one w/an animal companion and one with Animal Handling maxed starting at 5th level with the intent of starting the game with a trained flanker animal. Here's the results: the rogue w/animal handling was never given the chance to have the trained beast as apparently there are no dogs in a 1000 mile radius or whatever (screwy one shot campaign); the druid lost her jaguar by third level in a pitched ranged battle against troglodytes in a cave; all 3 familiars lived the full campaigns.

Atilan: not a one of the above familiars were improved, but they were ALL birds.

Now, I'm not thusly responding to be a jerk, but just to say I've been really lucky with my wizards I guess. However those lucky breaks have colored my opinion of animal familiars into the apparent minority of players who think these things are a good idea.

Back @ Davor: remember - a familiar can deliver a touch attack. Also remember that many if not all touch attacks can be held until discharged. Wake up in the morning, pick up your baseball-sized toad and read a maximized scroll of shocking grasp, then slip him into your pocket. Around 5pm you arrive at the first door in the dungeon, on the other side of which is an ettin. As you ready yourself to cast knock your toad slips under the door positions itself under the ogre's stool. You cast the spell, the ogre (surprised) takes the rogue's sneak attack and this is followed by a toad's tongue delivering an additional 30 pts of damage. Good boy toady.

I've seen many threads call for the weaponization of animal familiars and I agree to a point but lets not forget that the intent of these favored pets isn't to be an attacker but rather a helper in your character's arcane studies. If I get another chance to be a player in a PF game I'm going wizard or witch, some kind of animal familiar, and I'm using the familiar as my re-roll chance on ALL knowledge checks. Ex: We have definitely stumbled upon the lair of...(rolls a 5 on knowledge: arcane) a hipogriff, I'm sure of it; look at these feathers. -looks down at black cat who puts a paw over its eyes while shaking it's head- Upon closer inspection (cat rolls a total 19 on its check) this would in fact appear to be a griffon's aerie. Its a common misconception...

No, I like thinking of my familiar as a tool, like a potion or scroll, to be used sparingly and at the right moment, and otherwise utilize their aid in more mundane situations.


But once you cast another spell, the toad loses the maximized shocking grasp... you can't cast new spells while holding the charge on a touch spell -- or rather, the charge is lost when you do.


Owl familiar - the party witch's pick up line to a friendly young man on a market: "you looked on my bird, I want to see yours".

When it comes to animal familiars: compsognathus. Yay, +4 bonus to initiative! But I do agree that pigglet familiar is fun.


Honestly, I have never had any problems with my animal familiars. I know that some GMs like to target the little guys, but I also like to remind said GMs that the abilities of classes are not common knowledge. As such, most non-casting opponents probably are not going to have anything more than cursory knowledge of arcane bonds, let alone the significance of a wizardy-type person's pet.

Given that animal familiars are not very imposing creatures, even the most sadistic of foes would wait until his victim was unable to stop him before tearing into his pet, rather than targeting an otherwise innocuous creature that the death of can only serve to draw fire on you.

That logic prevents attacks from at least the percentage of foes that don't have knowledge (arcane), and for the rest, there is the size bonus to stealth and the penalties that a foe takes for trying to spot a small critter while trying to fight characters that can actually be confirmed as legitimate threats.


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From GMs side. I have no problem with PC using his familiar and generally do not target the familiar unless it would be an obvious thing for the opponents to do, or they have enough knowledge of familiars to deliberately do it. I did warn the witch about potential dangers of sending her owl familiar into the fray of combat (she uses the nameless bird to deliver her healing spells: "I am energizing my owl" became her common action) which lead her a few time to rethink her and her familiar actions when I pointed to her that the owl would have to fly through threatened area and thus probably provoke an attack.


weaponise an animal familiar? like this? it uses a cat (3 natural attacks)and makes it able to take down a minor dragon in two rounds of combat, likely unscathed.

Silver Crusade

As a DM I never target passive familiars. If the familiar is just used to provide their basic familiar benefit then they are effectively immortal and invulnerable in my games.

If a player uses their familiar in combat or for scouting then things can get ugly quickly. I have nothing against doing that but a kobold is not gonna pass up a tasty toad treat.


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Because they will never match up to Boo.


Ok, so the rogue picks the lock. Ready action for toad explode, then hurl a toppling magic missile.

FD: Ridonculus. It's moments of brilliance like that which make taking a familiar worth it. You can't do THAT with a necklace wizards!

But it IS just that; a moment. FD said it himself in the thread he references; using your familiar as a full on attacker is a desperation move. But for your low level guys: keep a vanish handy and let fluffy deliver healing spells. At mid levels spare an invisibility and a seek thoughts and then send your pet all over town out to a mile radius to see if it picks up anything. I haven't played high level in 3x/PF so I honestly don't know what that would look like with a familiar.

But then there's also the aid another/use master's skills thing. Perchance you're a craftsman (had a wizard way way back who was a "maker" type with leatherworking and bookbinding) who was always polymorphing his familiar into a form to help him make spellbooks, regular tomes and scrolls. The familiar then had a pouch of holding to double carrying capacity.

And finally I as a GM have to concur with Sqirm. in that I don't have anyone target the wizard's familiar for no good reason. Why would 3 goblins focus any or all of their arrows on a house cat when the guy standing NEXT to the house cat just shot fire out of his hands and killed 2 of their fellow monsters.


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Mark, you are a freeking genius.
ok, gather round. i have a plan.
ingredients: one familiar.
caster: lvl 19. evoker 18 sorcerer 1 (cross-blooded red dragon and elemental (primal) fire).
feats: SF evocation, greater SF evocation, spell specialisation (detonate), greater spell specialisation, quicken spell, extend spell, maximise spell, intensify spell, spell perfection (detonate), empower spell, improved share spells. trait: magical lineage (detonate)
method: cast affecting both you and your familiar the following: protection from energy, resist energy, quickened extended intensified detonate, maximised empowered extended detonate, quickened empowered detonate, maximised empowered intensified detonate, dimention door (right into middle of badguys.) then, blow up.
damage = (20d8+120+7d8+22d8+160+10d8+9+9+9+9+40+30+14+44+40+20)= 59d8+504...*2. or 118d8+1008 damage to everyone within 15 foot, half that between 15 and 30 foot. and you and fluffy both take half as well... actually, on second thoughts i think you'll need a better defense than protection from energy and resist energy.

See what you've done now Mark? by saying the toad should explode you've done more than a thousand damage!


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FuelDrop wrote:
actually, on second thoughts i think you'll need a better defense than protection from energy and resist energy.

I think that it's time for that clone that you left in your mage tower to activate... Regretfully, Warty The Toad shall require your additional assistance in returning to life. Which begs question - would you deem limited wish powerful enough to return a wizard's familiar to life? I'd say yes.

Quote:
See what you've done now Mark? by saying the toad should explode you've done more than a thousand damage!

I knew there are Fuel-Air bombs... But Fuel-Drop bombs?


To invoke the sage Neo: whoa.

FD, that is the most insane "nth degree" I've ever seen anyone take it to, so congratulations. It is moments like this that lend credence to the dozens of threads that warn me that adventuring after you hit levels in the teens is pointless.

And hey; if you can have a clone prepped for you, and your familiar is actually an extension of you, can't you have one prepped for it too?

you've given me 2 things here: 1) confirmation again that using your familiar in combat seems like a sometimes treat and 2) a way to explain that mysterious crater in the middle of the forest with no earthly explanation in my homebrew campaign.

Oh, and just one more thing about the exploding toad scenario; the name of the thread is "Why no LOVE for animal familiars" so while this is magnaculuar it MAY not qualify...unless you've got that toad clone ready, then pull the ripchord.


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I think if someone saw an imp they might target it more than an animal actually. Also if your familiar looks like a crow or other black bird I will not have it targeted by orcs.

Scarab Sages

I like weasel familiars. Just the concept of a gnome wizard, with a pet weasel. I'd name it Knievel. This is my weasel Kenievel.

Also I like the word "weasel".


O fond memories! I have played a weasel familiar of a jerkass sun elf wizard. I was named Vizel and was the most loved memeber of the party.


Alitan wrote:

Sorry, I'm one of those who has no use for animal familiars.

I don't GET a familiar until 7th level, and then it's an imp.

Animals just aren't durable -- even with the familiar buffs.

And an imp with the familiar buffs is just nasty.

What are the "familiar Buffs"?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns, Rulebook, Starfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

@Davor , I swear remebering a feat that gives familiars a 1 point evolution from edition list...Ultimate Magic or Advance Player's Guide.

Scarab Sages

John Templeton wrote:

@Davor , I swear remebering a feat that gives familiars a 1 point evolution from edition list...Ultimate Magic or Advance Player's Guide.

That's correct. I hadn't actually forgotten about it, but I honestly can't see any familiar using class selecting the feat more than once or twice. I'd like to see something that provides you with more of them as a class feature.


Y'know what I've always wanted? A familiar specialist PrC or wizard archetype. Think about it; if you go back to 3x (for PrC's anyway) you've got arcane monks, specialists in almost every kind of school, range attack specialists and even just really smart secret knowers. You have PrC's focusing on EVERY aspect of being a wizard.

Now in PF you have a witch archetype that focuses on familiars. Why not wizards, or a PrC that would work for both. I could imagine the wizard version whould trade your scribe scroll for toughness on the familiar, then at higher levels trading bonus feats for either eidolon evolutions, bonus feats on the animal or something similar. If a PrC I could see the familiar and arcanist trading off each level, gaining some kind of synthesis bonus like when they're together in the same square or w/in 5' or whatever their spells (both cast by caster or held in familiar) are +1 level or the familiar grants it's master bonus to hit or whatever.

Does anyone know of something like this that ISN'T a witch archetype?


evolve familiar feat
ultimate magic

allows player to take lvl 1 evolution trait from the summoner's thingy.

so one can take a cat and make it breath underwater or fly or make its natural weapons magic or allow it ti use some minor spells.....

or increase its ac...

regardless I think the feat is a little weak and should allow to take 2 of the lvl 1 evolution traits instead of 1.

really, why do I want to burn two feats to make my familiar silghtly more powerful.


some spells that make any familiar combat worthy at reasonable levels:
Burning gaze: your familiar can glare people to death. it can deal 1d6 fire damage per round, which is not too bad as a second level spell.
Fire breath: another second level spell. at third level this can deal up to 7d6 damage at the cost of three standard actions. cast on your familiar, who at this point has standard actions to spare, and watch the fun begin.


oh, and i've found a way to survive the Fuel-Drop bomb (thank you Drejk). use form of the giant 2 to turn both you and your familiar into fire giants, who are immune to fire. at that point the fire damage you take from the spell becomes fairly meaningless.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns, Rulebook, Starfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Greater Magic Fang + Permancy or other Permancy Combos.


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FuelDrop wrote:
oh, and i've found a way to survive the Fuel-Drop bomb (thank you Drejk). use form of the giant 2 to turn both you and your familiar into fire giants, who are immune to fire. at that point the fire damage you take from the spell becomes fairly meaningless.

Other ways to survive it: dragon form III also grants immunity to fire if red, gold or brass dragon form is acquired. Also firebrand spell can be used to protect multiple creatures from own fire spells. I think that there were some more spells that granted fire immunity... One thing that I found strange is that none of the higher level elemental body grants immunity, all give the same resist <insert energy type associated with assumed elemental form> 20, regardless of level.

makes a note to consider creating familiar-focused wizard archetype... maybe sorcerer's too, if tattooed sorcerer can give familiar regardless of actual bloodline.

EDIT: Fiery body prior to detonation. Self-healing for 150-300 hit points...


gigglestick wrote:


What are the "familiar Buffs"?

The Int, Natural Armor bonuses applied by wizard level to your familiar; like, the last page of the Wizard class description in the CRB. [Or by Sorcerer level if you're Arcane bloodline.] Goes along with the by-level abilities like 'scry on familiar' and 'spell resistance,' 'speak with animals of its type,' etc., etc.


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Drejk wrote:
Fiery body prior to detonation. Self-healing for 150-300 hit points...

See Mark, i had warty the toad's best interests at heart all along [/blatent lies]


Personally I've always been partial to the grimalkin but due to limited opportunities I usually just take a standard cat. I recently started pathfinder society and my first characters familiar is a cat. Well technically its a childhood friend (rogue) who picked the lock on the characters masters booze supply with the result all four involved found out something they shouldn't and wound up transformed in various ways but that's another story.


I have a witch that is using a compy familiar.

In a 3.5 campaign I once had an elven fighter (archer)/wizard that had the elven wizard substitute classes. I had a hummingbird familiar and with feats and stats was able to get to a +18 iniative and became the bane of the DM! :)


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Personally? Ravens. Ravens ravens ravens. Flight and the ability to come back and tell you exactly what they saw in real speech is insanely useful, especially since no one usually worries about seeing a bird fly by. And if there are no ravens in the area, so it would stand out? Use Share Spell to cast Disguise Self on it, so it looks like, say, a parrot, or a buzzard, or a dove.

It may not be applicable to combat directly, but they make some of the best damn scouts and spies available.


genkumon wrote:
Ravens. Ravens ravens ravens. Flight and the ability to come back and tell you exactly what they saw

And don't forget that birds have an opposable digit, so wands are an option.


Genku: I KNEW it! Now I have PROOF that some familiars other than monkeys can be the wizard's wand jockey.

FD: I trust you man. I'm sure you only want the best for Dr Wartenstein.

So, here's a weird thought: you have a wizard that wastes a couple feats and some permanency combos on his familiar (cat) at 12th level. At this point he has a bipedal cat with opposable hands, has increased in size from tiny to small and it's claws are magical. It also has an intellegence of 11, can speak (through permanent tongues shared) and has all its master's skills. Its ALMOST a little person and per the fluff around the familiar may have it's own personality supplemental to whatever the wizard has. My thought is; does puss in boots now have sort of it's own life? I mean RAW says it's still a familiar and beholden to its master's every whim, but really by 12th level what use does the wizard have for a cat-man in combat anymore?

Reminds me of the cartoon movie The Last Unicorn. A wizard went off and died leaving behind its familiar which by virtue of the spells lobbed on it had been transformed as I described above. When introduced in the story he's a grizzled old apprentice w/one eye and sort of a tough attitude and he's maintaining his old master's tower.

Atilan or a couple others know this, but what happens in the case of permanently altered familiars if they are dismissed? I know the FAQ/Eratta states that the dismissed animal converts to a normal animal of its type, but like above, what if you've taken feats to permanently make it walk upright, given it hands, permanized an enlarge and tongues spell on it etc. Does it retain all these changes?


Is it just me or is it possible to cast alter-self on your familiar? I am sure that having thumbs would let kitty do some serious damage...


Mark Hoover wrote:

Genku: I KNEW it! Now I have PROOF that some familiars other than monkeys can be the wizard's wand jockey.

FD: I trust you man. I'm sure you only want the best for Dr Wartenstein.

So, here's a weird thought: you have a wizard that wastes a couple feats and some permanency combos on his familiar (cat) at 12th level. At this point he has a bipedal cat with opposable hands, has increased in size from tiny to small and it's claws are magical. It also has an intellegence of 11, can speak (through permanent tongues shared) and has all its master's skills. Its ALMOST a little person and per the fluff around the familiar may have it's own personality supplemental to whatever the wizard has. My thought is; does puss in boots now have sort of it's own life? I mean RAW says it's still a familiar and beholden to its master's every whim, but really by 12th level what use does the wizard have for a cat-man in combat anymore?

Reminds me of the cartoon movie The Last Unicorn. A wizard went off and died leaving behind its familiar which by virtue of the spells lobbed on it had been transformed as I described above. When introduced in the story he's a grizzled old apprentice w/one eye and sort of a tough attitude and he's maintaining his old master's tower.

Atilan or a couple others know this, but what happens in the case of permanently altered familiars if they are dismissed? I know the FAQ/Eratta states that the dismissed animal converts to a normal animal of its type, but like above, what if you've taken feats to permanently make it walk upright, given it hands, permanized an enlarge and tongues spell on it etc. Does it retain all these changes?

By RAW I believe it becomes a very confused cat, by common sense I'd say it should retain them (in my game a familiar retains all the magical changes permanently) but its up to the DM. Personally one of my favorite familiars was a grimalkin that due to a kind DM and the use of the improved familiar/leadership feats was able to gain its own class levels as a wizard.


BTW mark, if you scale down my idea back to reasonable level seven evoker:
traits: magical lineage, gifted adept (detonate)
Feats: Extend spell, spell focus (evocation), spell specialisation (detonate), greater spell focus, improved share spells.
Method:
pre-battle: resist energy.
round 1: vanish.
round 2: Extended detonate.
round 3: detonate.
round 4: protection from energy, boom!
end result: 40d8+12 damage to your enemies, 10d8+3-20d8+6 damage to your familiar, 20d8+6-30d8+9 damage to you. both you and your familiar reduce the damage by 70 (protection) then 20 per remaining spell (resist).

this works with any energy type, requires a min int 18 (by seventh level, that's quite conservative), and will end almost any encounter at that level (After all, any foe is vulnerable to at least 1 energy type! you can pick it when you cast, so you're all but garenteed to work around their resistances.
boss plus minions=toast.


Nice, but 50GP per casting of Detonate might be a problem at that Level.

Also does a duration of 1 Round not imply that the Detonate would detonate before the Prot from Enegry?


Improved Share Spells requires 10 ranks in Spellcraft, so it can't be done before 10th level, unless I missed some archetype or special ability granting it earlier.


Most people go with improved familiar because it gives you such a drastic improvement in your familiar. Just look at that nasty little imp compared to my favorite animal familiar the raven. So much for a single feat.

Richard Leonhart wrote:

monkeys have opposable thumbs, just like many improved familiars.

If you have use magic device (UMD) then they will have it aswell.
Give them a wand, cast twice as many spells.

Just so you know....yes monkeys have imposable thumbs and can hold items including wands. However, they can not speak. Wands are spell-trigger activated and require a single word to activate. I would say that because of this the only starting familiar that could possibly use a wand is the raven or the parrot.


Lab_Rat is correct

I love familiars. Both times I've played a character with one it was alot of fun. Just getting 2 perception rolls, 2 knowledge checks and so on made my character so much more the skillmonkey. Half the time, I'd roll better w/ the familiar and it would lead to party remarks on keeping my pet over me :P

Dark Archive

*croak*

Put that toad in spiked full-plate, throw it, and deliver the spell that way! Haha!


Animal familiars never have to worry about being kidnapped via the Planar Binding line of spells. Witches that go with outsiders and elementals for their familiar need to constantly fear having their hard drive wiped.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Lab_Rat wrote:

Most people go with improved familiar because it gives you such a drastic improvement in your familiar. Just look at that nasty little imp compared to my favorite animal familiar the raven. So much for a single feat.

Richard Leonhart wrote:

monkeys have opposable thumbs, just like many improved familiars.

If you have use magic device (UMD) then they will have it aswell.
Give them a wand, cast twice as many spells.

Just so you know....yes monkeys have imposable thumbs and can hold items including wands. However, they can not speak. Wands are spell-trigger activated and require a single word to activate. I would say that because of this the only starting familiar that could possibly use a wand is the raven or the parrot.

A major problem is that the only way these creatures can hold a stick is sideways. They DO NOT have true hands.


Yes...Ravens and parrots using wands is GM discretion territory. They could always stand sideways to get the wand pointed in the right direction. This is why I love improved familiar. It removes the ambiguity from familiars and UMD.


You can hold a wand sideways and still touch the person in front of you with it. It's not that hard. You could be all rules lawyery and say that you don't even have to tough the end of the wand to the person, since the rules don't say you have to.

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