Vicious Stomp + Greater Trip?


Rules Questions

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Man, how many "game the system" threads are you guys going to create? It's amazing how I can accurately predict who is going to argue for game-breaking misinterpretations to the very end. I have shown you how this doesn't work and quoted the relevant portions of the rules for you, but you persist in trying to break action-economy restrictions of the game. I don't understand how breaking the rules and outshining all the other players at the table is fun, but go ahead and put this to your GM's - see how fast they shut you down.


Jarl wrote:

Where did I say that?

Here:

Jarl wrote:


Attack roll > CMD = Successful Trip attempt

-James


james maissen wrote:
Jarl wrote:

Where did I say that?

Here:

Jarl wrote:


Attack roll > CMD = Successful Trip attempt
-James

That AOO resolves before the target ever goes prone.

AOO:
An attack of opportunity "interrupts" the normal flow of actions in the round. If an attack of opportunity is provoked, immediately resolve the attack of opportunity, then continue with the next character's turn (or complete the current turn, if the attack of opportunity was provoked in the midst of a character's turn).


Jarl wrote:
james maissen wrote:
Jarl wrote:

Where did I say that?

Here:

Jarl wrote:


Attack roll > CMD = Successful Trip attempt
-James

That AOO resolves before the target ever goes prone.

What AOO?

I'm talking about making a trip maneuver check against a target that is currently prone. Not from an AOO, but a normal standard action attack.

You are claiming that this is valid and that you can successfully trip a prone creature. What do you imagine that even means?

-James


You misread. That says that if your attack roll for a trip attempt is greater than your target's CMD, the trip attempt is successful. Nowhere does it say that you are tripping an already prone target. Not sure where you got that from to be honest.

My next line asserts that the successful trip provoked an AOO which would resolve immediately, and before the target falls prone.

To be sure we are clear, nowhere did I ever say that you can trip a prone target (even if the FAQ says otherwise).


2 people marked this as a favorite.

I Talonhawke being of sound mind and body, and being the main GM for my local groups, do hereby give my endorsement as a representation to other GMs that this method of gaining multiple AoO off one trip is to the best of my 10 years of gaming both sound and legal within the rules. Furthermore I would allow this at my tables without question and feel that attempts to defame the users of these feats as cheaters is an abhorrent, slanderous, and outright lie.

These feats when used in combination produce nothing more game breaking than any min-maxed build could. The problems that can arise from this combo are not from a single character doing this but the thought that somehow your group might choose to build a group with the intent of making ludicrious attacks on one enemy each turn by surrounding them. This is an easily couterable tactic that would turn against them faster than work with them, and secondly would doubtfully ever actually be seen in play outside of peoples imaginations.

In conclusion I find that if you are wondering how to adjucate these feats in conjuction with one another I would suggest trying it out in favor of the player and seeing if you feel that letting a chacter deal that extra damage (remeber outside of a monk or specailized fighter unarmed damage is fairly small) is really as game breaking as some posters would have you believe.

Sincerly yours TalonHawke


I, Mabven the OP healer, being of sound mind and body, and being the main interpreter of reality for the universe inside my brain, do hereby give my endorsement of the fact that the sky is green, and that this method of interpreting the color of the sky is, to the best of my 10,000 years of interpreting reality for the universe inside my brain, is factual and true. Furthermore, I would assert this fact despite any reasonable and logical arguments to the contrary.

This fact about the color of the sky, when used in any context, produces nothing more universe-destrying than arguments with fact-hating anonymous people on the interwebs. The problems that could arise from this fact are not caused by the refraction of light through the spherical lens of the earth's atmosphere, and I guarantee that this fact is unlikely to cause the moon to fall out of the sky and destroy the earth. Such an eventuality as the fall of the moon is easily counteracted by my utter refusal to believe that the moon is falling.

In conclusion, I find that if you are worried about world-destroying repercussions of asserting that the sky is green, I would suggest trying it out, and should the moon fall out of the sky, simply refuse to believe it.

Sincerely yours,

Mabven the OP healer


Still waiting on you to bold the rules i quoted and show us where falling prone is a qualification for trip to be successful over being the result of it being successful.


Spinning Throw (Combat)
You whirl your foe around and then let go.

Prerequisite: Combat Expertise, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Trip, Improved Unarmed Strike, Ki Throw.

Benefit: On a successful unarmed trip combat maneuver against an opponent your size or smaller, you can spend a swift action to attempt a bull rush combat maneuver against that opponent. If your bull rush succeeds, you can move that opponent to any unoccupied square you threaten, then push that opponent the number of 5-foot increments your successful bull rush allows. The target is then knocked prone. If the bull rush fails, you can use the Ki Throw feat as normal. If you also have the Improved Ki Throw feat, a successful bull rush allows you to push the opponent into a space secondary targets occupy. You resolve this effect as if you used the Improved Ki Throw feat to throw the opponent into that space.

Special: Per the Ki Throw feat, a monk can use ki to affect creatures larger than himself with this feat.

Further Proof that succedding and going prone are not the same thing. notice the target isnt knocked prone until after a successful unarmed trip unless you want to argue that I knock them prone pick them up move them and knock them prone again.


Read back in the thread, I quoted it on the last page. I will not repeat myself just because you don't read my posts.


I've been switched to the 2 AoO's side of the camp.

Mabven the OP healer wrote:
Read the definition of trip. The rules themselves state that a trip is not successful until someone falls prone. If you succeed at your cmb against an already prone character, it still is not a successful trip.

From the Combat chapter under combat maneuvers and therefore exactly what we are looking for:

"Determine Success: If your attack roll equals or exceeds the CMD of the target, your maneuver is a success and has the listed effect. Some maneuvers, such as bull rush, have varying levels of success depending on how much your attack roll exceeds the target's CMD. Rolling a natural 20 while attempting a combat maneuver is always a success (except when attempting to escape from bonds), while rolling a natural 1 is always a failure."

This explicitly states that the success of the maneuver is a result of the attack roll >= the CMD of the creature. That is all. As a result of being a success, the maneuver has the listed effect.


Mabven the OP healer wrote:

Read the definition of trip. The rules themselves state that a trip is not successful until someone falls prone. If you succeed at your cmb against an already prone character, it still is not a successful trip.

If you succeed at your cmb against an ooze, a creature without legs or a flying creature, it is still not a successful trip. Succeeding at your CMB does not indicate a successful trip, your opponent falling prone does. You are dividing it into two parts -> succeed at trip -> opponent falls prone. This is not how it works. Once the opponent falls prone, and not before, it is a successful trip. Seriously, read the rules before making statements that have no basis in the rules.

Do me a favor this is the best i can find of you showing us how its wrong you dont qoute anything though so either bold my quotes where it is or give me a rule to look at because I dont see a single Quote from the rules from you.


I don't need to quote, because you have done it for me: "If your attack roll equals or exceeds the CMD of the target, your maneuver is a success and has the listed effect" - the listed effect is that the opponent falls prone. Until it has the listed effect, it is not successful, thus there is no separation between success and falling prone. Thus one aoo. I have quoted the rules for AOO and combat expertise, which is entirely explicit. You can continue bolding stuff in the rules that proves my point for me, or you can continue to quote feats which have nothing to do with the issue, either way, it does not make a trip and its result (falling prone) two separate opportunities.


1. your still confusing success and effects.

2. Then How does Spinning Ki throw work? Am I picking them up after they are prone?


Mabven the OP healer wrote:
I don't need to quote, because you have done it for me: "If your attack roll equals or exceeds the CMD of the target, your maneuver is a success and has the listed effect" - the listed effect is that the opponent falls prone. Until it has the listed effect, it is not successful, thus there is no separation between success and falling prone.

What? Your maneuver is already a success before the listed effect comes into play *at all*. I don't see how you can quote something without conditions then place conditions on it.


Let's try an analogy... I doubt you'll really care, but its worth a shot.

Dirty trick.

A fighter attempts to use a dirty trick against a creature with blindsight. The fighter doesn't realize the creature has blindsight, and tries to blind it. He makes his roll, and beats the CMD of the creature. Did the fighter successfully dirty trick the creature?


Yes its now blinded its other senses make up for that fact and it recieves no penalty.


What happens if you trip someone under the effects of levitate that's just standing there?


Tarantula wrote:
A fighter attempts to use a dirty trick against a creature with blindsight. The fighter doesn't realize the creature has blindsight, and tries to blind it. He makes his roll, and beats the CMD of the creature. Did the fighter successfully dirty trick the creature?

A creature with Blindsight is not immune to having the Blinded Condition.

Your Dirty Trick attempt *succeeds* and as a result they gain the Blinded condition. The creature suffers no penalties because they can negate that condition with blindsight.


Glutton wrote:
What happens if you trip someone under the effects of levitate that's just standing there?

If they are just standing there then they are doing just that standing thus the get tripped and go prone.


Jarl wrote:

You misread. That says that if your attack roll for a trip attempt is greater than your target's CMD, the trip attempt is successful. Nowhere does it say that you are tripping an already prone target. Not sure where you got that from to be honest.

My next line asserts that the successful trip provoked an AOO which would resolve immediately, and before the target falls prone.

To be sure we are clear, nowhere did I ever say that you can trip a prone target (even if the FAQ says otherwise).

So what happens, Jarl, when you have a character make a trip maneuver against a prone target?

They roll their check vs CMD and succeed. Have they tripped the already prone target?

What if they try to trip a flying creature and roll their check vs CMD and succeed? Have they tripped the flier that can't be tripped?

-James


No James no more than beating a ghost AC allows you to hit it with a stick off the ground.

As to Tripping already prone creatures i agree that its an issue in and of its self but the rules are clear that once you beat the CMD you succeed .

I would like to know your take on the Ki throw feats however since you feel that the trip is not successful until the target is prone.

Do they cause a creature to go prone get picked up and go prone again?
Notice that they all require a successfull unarmed trip attempt which by your and Mabven reasoning means that the feat cannot trigger until the target is prone.

Dark Archive

It seems one of the arguments from the single AoO crowd is anyone who is arguing for two is 'gaming the system'.

Everybody who disagrees with me is a worse kind of gamer! Let it be known!


Talonhawke wrote:
No James no more than beating a ghost AC allows you to hit it with a stick off the ground.

So merely beating the CMD is not sufficient to make a successful trip check, we agree.

Now we need to see if Jarl is on board with that.

Talonhawke wrote:


As to Tripping already prone creatures i agree that its an issue in and of its self but the rules are clear that once you beat the CMD you succeed .

So you say the rules are the problem here?

When given a choice in reading rules, why not try to go with the reading that doesn't require you to see the rules has problematic and that doesn't allow absurd cases.

Talonhawke wrote:


I would like to know your take on the Ki throw feats however since you feel that the trip is not successful until the target is prone.

Do they cause a creature to go prone get picked up and go prone again?
Notice that they all require a successfull unarmed trip attempt which by your and Mabven reasoning means that the feat cannot trigger until the target is prone.

Basically. The successful trip check is not enough to make it a successful trip. It must be the cause for the opponent to become prone. This caveat removes the ambiguities that you are finding in the rules.

Your reading would also allow this when the target begins prone, so there is certainly a problem if you subscribe to your reading of the rules, right?

Likewise when looking at greater trip, you could use the AOO they provoke to greater trip them again.. right?

Moreover you could make a successful trip check against a flier. You don't trip them, but via greater trip they provoke AOOs. Correct?

Your reading of trip is saying that you can successfully trip a prone person. If there is another reading that makes more sense, why not go with it?

-James

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

I removed a post. If you're disengaging from a discussion, then do so. Posting to make a big deal of it is just trying to get the last word.


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

DISCLAIMER: I WILL START BY SAYING I HAVEN'T BOTHERED READING ALL 176 POSTS PRIOR TO MINE BECAUSE I AM LAZY. THAT IS ALL.

Now that's out of the way...

Making an Attack of Opportunity:

An attack of opportunity is a single melee attack, and most characters can only make one per round. You don't have to make an attack of opportunity if you don't want to. You make your attack of opportunity at your normal attack bonus, even if you've already attacked in the round.

An attack of opportunity "interrupts" the normal flow of actions in the round. If an attack of opportunity is provoked, immediately resolve the attack of opportunity, then continue with the next character's turn (or complete the current turn, if the attack of opportunity was provoked in the midst of a character's turn).

Combat Reflexes and Additional Attacks of Opportunity:

If you have the Combat Reflexes feat, you can add your Dexterity modifier to the number of attacks of opportunity you can make in a round. This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity). Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn't count as more than one opportunity for that opponent. All these attacks are at your full normal attack bonus.

Alright, so we've established how AoO's work in tandem with Combat Reflexes. Let's look at Greater Trip and Vicious Stomp.

SRD wrote:

Greater Trip (Combat)

You can make free attacks on foes that you knock down.

Prerequisites: Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, base attack bonus +6, Int 13.

Benefit: You receive a +2 bonus on checks made to trip a foe. This bonus stacks with the bonus granted by Improved Trip. Whenever you successfully trip an opponent, that opponent provokes attacks of opportunity.

Normal: Creatures do not provoke attacks of opportunity from being tripped.

So it's pretty clear by RAW that Greater Trip lets you take an Attack of Opportunity whenever you successfully trip an opponent. Not when your opponent becomes prone (even though it is the result of a trip) but when you specifically trip the opponent. Nowhere does it say "Once your opponent is prone from a successful trip maneuver" or anything of the sort.

SRD wrote:

Vicious Stomp (Combat)

You take advantage of the moment to brutally kick an enemy when he is down.

Prerequisite: Combat Reflexes, Improved Unarmed Strike.

Benefit: Whenever an opponent falls prone adjacent to you, that opponent provokes an attack of opportunity from you. This attack must be an unarmed strike.

So this is pretty clear too. If an opponent falls prone adjacent to you, regardless of why, they provoke an attack of opportunity.

If you go back up to "Combat Reflexes and Attacks of Opportunity" you'll see the sentence I've bolded. We know at this point that he's provoked an AoO from 1) being tripped (from Greater Trip) and 2) from being prone adjacent to you (from Vicious Stomp). So that's two different sources (tripping and falling prone).

Now, the triggers for the AoOs are, in my mind, two different events because the first results in the opponent becoming prone and the other requires the opponent to be prone.

IMO I don't see this as broken. You can only use this combo once per foe per round since you can't trip again when taking an attack of opportunity on a creature that is standing up (the infamous 3.5 "TripLockCombo"). I'm sure it can be abused to Stupid but I can't see how off the top of my head. Enough time though, and I'm sure we can all come up with various insane ways to turn this into an AutoKillOption.


ThatEvilGuy wrote:
DISCLAIMER: I WILL START BY SAYING I HAVEN'T BOTHERED READING ALL 176 POSTS PRIOR TO MINE BECAUSE I AM LAZY. THAT IS ALL.

Good synopsis. However, even if the event was the same (falling prone), 2 AoOs would still be generated because they are generated specifically by obtaining & possessing certain unrelated feats and how those feats interact with a certain event.

james maissen wrote:
Talonhawke wrote:
No James no more than beating a ghost AC allows you to hit it with a stick off the ground.
So merely beating the CMD is not sufficient to make a successful trip check, we agree.

Wow James, I'm surprised at you. You're reading in your favorable conclusion to his clearly sarcastic remark. We all know that a mundane stick cannot damage a ghost even if you beat its AC. Likewise you cannot trip a flying creature because the trip maneuver states you cannot. I repeat: you can't even target a flying creature with a trip maneuver so the rest of your hypothetical is not valid.

PRD - Core - Combat - Combat Maneuvers - Trip wrote:
Some creatures—such as oozes, creatures without legs, and flying creatures—cannot be tripped.

Note how it says they cannot be tripped (the maneuver), not they cannot be knocked prone.

He even says in his next sentence:

Talonhawke wrote:
the rules are clear that once you beat the CMD you succeed


Stynkk wrote:

I repeat: you can't even target a flying creature with a trip maneuver so the rest of your hypothetical is not valid.

Any support for this?

You cannot trip a flying creature (or an incorporeal one for that matter) but that doesn't mean that you cannot try to make a trip maneuver against them. It just means that you won't succeed.

Likewise you can try to trip a prone creature, but that doesn't mean that you can succeed (heck what would that even MEAN?). You can try to trip an ooze as well...

To be successful at tripping something you need to be causing it to become prone. If you haven't done this, then you haven't succeeded at tripping them. That's plain English.

You get into problems when you try to deviate from that.

-James


Are there ever times when tripping someone results in something other than (or in addition to) falling prone?


Bob_Loblaw wrote:
Are there ever times when tripping someone results in something other than (or in addition to) falling prone?

Depends who you ask.

To me.. a successful trip is defined as causing the victim to fall prone.

Yet for others, you could make a successful combat maneuver check but fail to do anything (target is already prone, target is immune to being tripped, target is falling prone already, etc) and they will consider this successfully tripping the victim.

So YMMV. The later interpretation leads to some bad cases as you might imagine (or read about up-thread).

-James


TOZ wrote:
Since the same action is cause the provoking, only one AoO.

Actually the same action isn't causing the provoking.

Succeeding on a trip attempt causes the first AoO.

Having an opponent land prone adjacent to you causes the second AoO.

You get the first AoO once you succeed whether or not the opponent lands prone (if they have a feat that prevents it, for instance).

You get the second when they land prone.

The first does not get the +4 to hit for them being prone. The second does.

Being tripped/=being prone. One ofter leads to the other, but they are not the same.


james maissen wrote:
Bob_Loblaw wrote:
Are there ever times when tripping someone results in something other than (or in addition to) falling prone?

Depends who you ask.

To me.. a successful trip is defined as causing the victim to fall prone.

Yet for others, you could make a successful combat maneuver check but fail to do anything (target is already prone, target is immune to being tripped, target is falling prone already, etc) and they will consider this successfully tripping the victim.

So YMMV. The later interpretation leads to some bad cases as you might imagine (or read about up-thread).

-James

That's not my question. My question is: are there feats, spells, abilities, etc. that are effects that occur due to being tripped other than the prone condition? In other words, is there an ability that says something like: "on a successful trip, you also cause the target to turn blue."

I understand the argument about the attacks of opportunity. I'm looking for something other than that.


Cainus wrote:


Succeeding on a trip attempt causes the first AoO.

Having an opponent land prone adjacent to you causes the second AoO.

You get the first AoO once you succeed whether or not the opponent lands prone (if they have a feat that prevents it, for instance).

So you could use greater trip to cause an enemy to provoke AOOs if you succeed on the CM check?

And it wouldn't matter if the target was:

1. Already prone (what does it mean to trip a prone character)
2. Incorporeal (what exactly have you done, especially if your weapon is non-magical)
3. Flying
4. Already falling prone (say from a prior trip that provoked)

This is your contention, that the rules would accept a person with greater trip and combat reflexes to successfully trip an opponent 5 times as they are falling, provoking 5 AOOs from his/her allies on the poor victim?

-James


Here's the way I read it.

PRD wrote:
Combat Reflexes and Additional Attacks of Opportunity: If you have the Combat Reflexes feat, you can add your Dexterity modifier to the number of attacks of opportunity you can make in a round. This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity).

This says nothing about multiple AoOs from the same action, just the same opportunity. Further, it specifically says if an opponent provokes multiple times each is its own opportunity. I believe the wording, "This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity," is there so that you don't make the mistake of taking all of your available AoOs on a single provocation.

So all of these semantic arguments about what it means to be a "successful trip" are all moot, in my opinion. The opponent provokes twice. Each provocation is a separate opportunity, so two AoOs are allowed.


Bob_Loblaw wrote:


That's not my question. My question is: are there feats, spells, abilities, etc. that are effects that occur due to being tripped other than the prone condition? In other words, is there an ability that says something like: "on a successful trip, you also cause the target to turn blue."

You mean like the Aldori Swordlord (ftr archetype) that does normal damage when successfully disarming a foe?

There's trick throw for unarmed fighter, but that's similar to the AOO provoking.

Also flowing monk can sicken an opponent on a successful trip made in their redirection ability.

You have of course ki throw and the AOO provoking feats (and derivatives thereof) already mentioned in this thread.. but I assume you're looking for other things more akin to the Aldori disarming so I mentioned those.

-James


I've tripped and just flailed around a bit before walking away like nothing happened.


Bob_Loblaw wrote:
Are there ever times when tripping someone results in something other than (or in addition to) falling prone?

Spinning Throw (Combat)

Benefit: On a successful unarmed trip combat maneuver against an opponent your size or smaller, you can spend a swift action to attempt a bull rush combat maneuver against that opponent. If your bull rush succeeds, you can move that opponent to any unoccupied square you threaten, then push that opponent the number of 5-foot increments your successful bull rush allows. The target is then knocked prone. If the bull rush fails, you can use the Ki Throw feat as normal. If you also have the Improved Ki Throw feat, a successful bull rush allows you to push the opponent into a space secondary targets occupy. You resolve this effect as if you used the Improved Ki Throw feat to throw the opponent into that space.


james maissen wrote:

You cannot trip a flying creature (or an incorporeal one for that matter) but that doesn't mean that you cannot try to make a trip maneuver against them. It just means that you won't succeed.

Likewise you can try to trip a prone creature, but that doesn't mean that you can succeed (heck what would that even MEAN?). You can try to trip an ooze as well...

To be successful at tripping something you need to be causing it to become prone. If you haven't done this, then you haven't succeeded at tripping them. That's plain English.

You get into problems when you try to deviate from that.

I'll agree I was a bit hasty on my reading, from further reading what I get from that is that: Trip attempts vs a target that are attempted against a listed creature result in an automatic failure no matter the result of the Combat Manuever Check. Even if the roll would normally *succeed* - it fails. It's like trying to use mind-control on a zombie...

james maissen wrote:
To be successful at tripping something you need to be causing it to become prone. If you haven't done this, then you haven't succeeded at tripping them. That's plain English.

But I can't agree here, sorry, that's not english and it's not pathfinder either. In english, tripping someone can cause a variety of things like stumbling and regaining your balance. As talonhawke, jarl and Bob are trying to allude to a trip attempt can result in other things too. Going prone is just one result of a successful trip.

Succeeding on a trip attempt means exactly what is defined in the Combat Maneuver section. (they even spell it out for you so there is no debating this - trip does not carry its own unique success scenario).

PRD - Core - Combat - Combat Maneuvers wrote:
Determine Success: If your attack roll equals or exceeds the CMD of the target, your maneuver is a success and has the listed effect. Some maneuvers, such as bull rush, have varying levels of success depending on how much your attack roll exceeds the target's CMD. Rolling a natural 20 while attempting a combat maneuver is always a success (except when attempting to escape from bonds), while rolling a natural 1 is always a failure.

Based on the text AND the FAQ you *can* perform a trip maneuver against a prone opponent. They will not go prone, however, even if you succeed. That's just reiteration for my own good.


Stynkk wrote:

from further reading what I get from that is that: Trip attempts vs a target that are attempted against a listed creature result in an automatic failure no matter the result of the Combat Manuever Check. Even if the roll would normally *succeed* - it fails. It's like trying to use mind-control on a zombie...

...

Succeeding on a trip attempt means exactly what is defined in the Combat Maneuver section. (they even spell it out for you so there is no debating this - trip does not carry its own unique success scenario).

PRD - Core - Combat - Combat Maneuvers wrote:
Determine Success: If your attack roll equals or exceeds the CMD of the target, your maneuver is a success and has the listed effect.
...

So your attack roll equals or exceeds the CMD of the ghost...

Thus there are other factors there.

Now you believe that someone with greater trip can elect to trip the victim that they've just tripped as an AOO, right? And then after all of those AOOs that they generate they can continue to 'trip' the prone victim (with a +4 now because they're prone..) to provoke even more AOOs.

First question: do you believe that this was intended to be the case?

Second question: do you think that this is in any way abusive?

Second (part b): would you call shenanigans if this happened to your PC sometime?

Third question: what does 'tripping' a prone character even mean?

-James


Stynkk wrote:


james maissen wrote:
To be successful at tripping something you need to be causing it to become prone. If you haven't done this, then you haven't succeeded at tripping them. That's plain English.

But I can't agree here, sorry, that's not english and it's not pathfinder either. In english, tripping someone can cause a variety of things like stumbling and regaining your balance. As talonhawke, jarl and Bob are trying to allude to a trip attempt can result in other things too. Going prone is just one result of a successful trip.

In English, a trip can also mean a journey or a hallucination.

In combat, a trip means a takedown. If you don't take you opponent down (knock them prone) you didn't trip them.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
Cainus wrote:


Being tripped/=being prone. One ofter leads to the other, but they are not the same.

If you do not fall prone, you were not successfully tripped, and do not provoke either AoO.


james maissen wrote:


So your attack roll equals or exceeds the CMD of the ghost...

Thus there are other factors there.

Now you believe that someone with greater trip can elect to trip the victim that they've just tripped as an AOO, right? And then after all of those AOOs that they generate they can continue to 'trip' the prone victim (with a +4 now because they're prone..) to provoke even more AOOs.

First question: do you believe that this was intended to be the case?

Second question: do you think that this is in any way abusive?

Second (part b): would you call shenanigans if this happened to your PC sometime?

Third question: what does 'tripping' a prone character even mean?

1. If you succeed on a trip vs a ghost or flying creature your attack roll always fails. Period. Please stop using these as examples, the rules text is clear that they can't be tripped. That is the only other factor.

2. Regarding greater trip and AoOs: the rules are cloudy because the developers have left them that way. Successfully tripping a standing opponent provokes an AoO. Since AoOs take place and resolve before anything happens, tripping a tripped ("falling") opponent with your AoO is valid. Do you disagree with the statement that trips can be substituted in for AoOs?

Your First Question: Tripping a prone opponent is valid under the rules (if illogical) and was clarified to be thus in the FAQ. If the developers did not mean for this, they would not have written it. If they do not mean it, the can easily add in: a prone creature cannot be tripped into the trip exceptions (fliers, ghosts and oozes).

Your Second Question: This is only abusive in regards to Greater Trip, but that is an easy clarification to make.

Your Second Part B: Would I call shenanigans on a universal rule being applied evenly across to both players and monsters? No. Although I would like greater trip to be clarified.

Your third question: Tripping a prone character means succeeding on your CMB against a prone creature (definition of combat maneuver success). This is not the same as exceeding the CMD of an ooze (or other non-trippable) because trip attempts vs an ooze always fail per the rules (cannot be tripped) and the scenario is explicitly called out in the trip rules entry.

Do you have to fall prone to be successfully tripped? No. That is not what determines success.


Jarl wrote:
Bob_Loblaw wrote:
Are there ever times when tripping someone results in something other than (or in addition to) falling prone?

Spinning Throw (Combat)

Benefit: On a successful unarmed trip combat maneuver against an opponent your size or smaller, you can spend a swift action to attempt a bull rush combat maneuver against that opponent. If your bull rush succeeds, you can move that opponent to any unoccupied square you threaten, then push that opponent the number of 5-foot increments your successful bull rush allows. The target is then knocked prone. If the bull rush fails, you can use the Ki Throw feat as normal. If you also have the Improved Ki Throw feat, a successful bull rush allows you to push the opponent into a space secondary targets occupy. You resolve this effect as if you used the Improved Ki Throw feat to throw the opponent into that space.

This is more of what I was looking for. So would this feat trigger the attack of opportunity for successfully tripping an opponent and when would it be resolved? By answering questions like this, we can make sure that the feats trigger consistently.


It should trigger any AOO that is provoked by a successful trip combat maneuver, which by the way is if "your attack roll equals or exceeds the CMD of the target". Going prone is NOT a requirement nor does it define success.

Also, the RAW already defines when it occurs. "An attack of opportunity "interrupts" the normal flow of actions in the round. If an attack of opportunity is provoked, immediately resolve the attack of opportunity, then continue with the next character's turn (or complete the current turn, if the attack of opportunity was provoked in the midst of a character's turn)".

It is already very clear on how it is resolved.


Stynkk wrote:


1. If you succeed on a trip vs a ghost or flying creature your attack roll always fails. Period. Please stop using these as examples, the rules text is clear that they can't be tripped. That is the only other factor.

No, my attack roll exceeded their CMD. Period. I rolled a nat 20 even!

But you are correct that they cannot be tripped.

Still my roll did not fail to exceed their CMD.

As to your question of me: I do not disagree that you can trip on an AOO. I DO disagree on the definition of a successful trip.

As we see in the case with a ghost (on multiple levels.. make him a ghostly ooze for added fun) that the rule for success is NOT as simple as you would like it to be.

There is a difference between exceeding the CMD with your attack roll and successfully tripping the opponent. That is clear, and we are agreeing upon it. However you are being sporadic about that agreement.

-James


Jarl wrote:

It should trigger any AOO that is provoked by a successful trip combat maneuver, which by the way is if "your attack roll equals or exceeds the CMD of the target".

It is already very clear on how it is resolved.

So you can get a flying creature to provoke AOOs using greater trip, yes?

Likewise you could greater trip a victim multiple times as they fall to provoke multiple AOOs, yes?

Really?

-James


james maissen wrote:
As we see in the case with a ghost (on multiple levels.. make him a ghostly ooze for added fun) that the rule for success is NOT as simple as you would like it to be.

James, you can't even make a trip attempt on them. It was a terrible example to begin with.

"Incorporeal creatures cannot make trip or grapple attacks, nor can they be tripped or grappled. In fact, they cannot take any physical action that would move or manipulate an opponent or its equipment, nor are they subject to such actions."

You should stop trying to trick people into talking about making trip attempts against targets that are not subject to such actions. It's not likely that you are going to trip the beluga whale you are swimming next to either.


Guys, guys, guys. Guys. For the question at hand, it doesn't matter. The text in the section on attacks of opportunity is clear. You only attack once per opportunity, but each time an enemy provokes, it represents a new opportunity.

Arguing for three pages over whether you can trip a prone opponent is a pretty major deviation from the topic.


You also can't trip flying creatures either so it's a moot point there as far as Greater Trip goes. You actually have to succeed at tripping the opponent. It's kind of written in the feat itself.

SRD wrote:

You can attempt to trip your opponent in place of a melee attack. You can only trip an opponent who is no more than one size category larger than you. If you do not have the Improved Trip feat, or a similar ability, initiating a trip provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver.

If your attack exceeds the target's CMD, the target is knocked prone. If your attack fails by 10 or more, you are knocked prone instead. If the target has more than two legs, add +2 to the DC of the combat maneuver attack roll for each additional leg it has. Some creatures—such as oozes, creatures without legs, and flying creatures—cannot be tripped.

Can you trip a prone creature? RAW I don't see why not, a creature with the "prone" condition does not become immune to the trip combat maneuver.

RAI. Well. Does anyone really need to say why "tripping" a creatures that's already "lying down" can't fulfill the "successfully trip your opponent" clause of the feat? SRSLY?

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