Yet another eidolon question: the bite


Rules Questions


2 people marked this as FAQ candidate.
Advanced Players Guide wrote:
Bite (Ex): An eidolon’s maw is full of razor-sharp teeth, giving it a bite attack. This attack is a primary attack. The bite deals 1d6 points of damage (1d8 if Large, 2d6 if Huge). If the eidolon already has a bite attack, this evolution allows it to deal 1-1/2 times its Strength modifier on damage rolls made with its bite.

It look like this question was brought up a while ago here with no clear answer provided.

I tried my search-fu in the forums and saw more questions about the evolutions than answers with most of them ironically being brought up in playtest before the APG was even officially published OR errata-ed.

Given that most of them seem to have topped out around 2010, I was hoping perhaps an answer or some logical applicability has been reached unofficial or otherwise in the intervening years.

My question is simple: If an eidolon of any base form possesses a bite attack, can the bite evolution be taken twice (free for quadropeds and serptines and then 1 EP, 2 EPs for bipeds) to increase the damage?

My interpretation of the rules as written tells me no eidolon could actually achieve this extra damage since the evolution does not say it can be taken more than once. Logically, one would presume the intent of the wording is to allow it to be taken more than once, or to allow only those base forms that receive the evolution for free to take it. What is the general feeling about this?


If the eidolon already has a bite attack, this evolution allows it to deal 1-1/2 times its Strength modifier on damage rolls made with its bite.

This sentance answers that question. You already have a bite attack. The only way for an eidolon to have a bite attack is if it has a bite evolution. Yes you can take it again if you had the free bite initially to give yourself the 1.5x str to damage. But not for a new bite, just to enhance one that exists.


So your feeling is it should only apply to the free evolution granted quadropeds and serpentines and not to bipeds or extra heads which obtain a bite attack later through evolutions?


It would make some sense that it's limited to 1 attack (of the potential 7), but I'm not sure the text fully implies this.

I'd always assumed you could convert as many bites as you could get (taking bite twice for each).

(for the record, I found it difficult to reasonably justify more than 5 heads though)


If you want to go Cerberus style you could easily evolve an extra head for 2 evo points and an extra bite for 1 evo point. Team that up with quadruped, trip, and pounce to make a trip monkey which gains a trip attack with each successful bite attack.


My desire is to apply it a biped who obtained it through the use of EPs, but I am hoping to avoid a rules argument if possible by getting a general feel of what the community at large thinks of it seeing as no official stance has been taken to clarify it.


It definately needs a line of "This evolution can be taken two times per head" or something like that.

But it seems reasonable that they intended you to be able to have Bite twice. Once to bite it, twice for the extra damage.
It would also be reasonable to assume you can apply it to multiple heads.

Too lazy to look it up but wasn't multiple heads introduced in a later book?

-S


Spirit of Pinvendor wrote:
So your feeling is it should only apply to the free evolution granted quadropeds and serpentines and not to bipeds or extra heads which obtain a bite attack later through evolutions?
Quote:


Head (Ex): An eidolon grows an additional head. The eidolon does not gain any additional natural attacks for the additional head, but the additional head does allow the eidolon to take other evolutions that add an additional attack to a head (such as a bite, gore, or breath weapon). This evolution can be selected more than once.

Either way you have the bite evolution, you take it again to get the 1.5 str.

I think it should be clarified, but my reading is. You have a head, you may take bite, if you have a bite you may take bite again to increase it to 1.5 str. Rinse and repeat per had as desired within other limits of the class (natural attacks limit).


I agree with Kolokotroni -- if it tells you what happens when you have two copies of the evolution, that means you can have two copies of the evolution.


Don't the base forms just give free evolutions (thus are treated in all ways like evolutions)? So even if you say that a quadruped already has a bite attack, so it can have its damage increased by taking the bite evolution, it's really the exact same as a biped taking it twice. One was just granted it freely once, and the other paid for it twice.

I think it's rather obvious you can take it twice. It's almost redundant to add in a line clarifying "You can take this two times per head."


The question really isn't about what makes sense as it is about the way the rules are written. It is clearly stated that unless an evolution says it can be taken twice, it can't be. Hence the confusion as to why this evolution references itself without clarifying how, when, and by what base form can take it to apply the secondary effect. A truly strict reading would mean that despite what it says, no eidolon could ever take it twice.

I agree the spirit of the rule seems to contradict that, and it seems most people would rather it be viewed in that way. I will probably use it as if it did state it can be taken twice and refer any questions to majority opinion. Thanks guys!

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