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The Young Justice cartoon and the Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes cartoon have been some of the best superhero fare of the last few years.
Given the success of other cartoon characters crossing over into comic-book continuity, like Harlequin, I'm disappointed that cartoon-Artemis wasn't given a better treatment in the comics.
As for the original topic, I 'miss' a lot more characters that are technically still alive, just written so out of character, or having been rebooted so drastically in personality, than actual 'dead' ones.
Probably my number one preference for cartoons over comics these days is that the cartoon interpretations of Young Justice / the Avengers / the Legion / etc. tend to be so much more likable and heroic than the comic-book versions, where the creators seem almost *embarrassed* to portray them in a heroic or hopeful or even likable manner.
For non comics characters that were good, I am STILL bitter Chloe Sullivan didn't get introduced into the comics. OTOH, probably better she's not in the nDCU, but damn... she was the best thing to come out of Smallville.
And for missing characters that seem so different that they aren't around any more... totally with you, Set.
I accepted a little while ago that nearly all my childhood heroes are basically dead and probably won't ever be coming back.
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For non comics characters that were good, I am STILL bitter Chloe Sullivan didn't get introduced into the comics. OTOH, probably better she's not in the nDCU, but damn... she was the best thing to come out of Smallville.
I totally agree. Every few seasons, they would cliff-hang killing her off (house exploding, etc.) and I would be all nerd-rage-y and threaten to walk away, and then they'd keep her.
It was a pleasant surprise when they kept Chloe and wrote out Lana. :)
Lionel Luthor was another non-comics-canon original-to-Smallville character that I ended up liking a lot.
Arrow is similarly doing a fine job of introducing compelling characters that never really appeared in the comics (like Moira Queen or Laurel's cop dad). Indeed, it's occasionally the comic-canon characters (like Laurel herself, or Clark over in Smallville) that I'm not feeling...
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Johnny Alpha and Nemesis the Warlock.
Lionel Luthor was another non-comics-canon original-to-Smallville character that I ended up liking a lot.
He was awesome, a very well written magnificent bastard.
Arrow is similarly doing a fine job of introducing compelling characters that never really appeared in the comics (like Moira Queen or Laurel's cop dad). Indeed, it's occasionally the comic-canon characters (like Laurel herself, or Clark over in Smallville) that I'm not feeling...
Laurel's dad was in the comics for a long time... just in the Golden Age, and he was called "Larry" rather than Quentin. (My headcanon is that her father's name is "Quentin Laurence Lance.")
Since they've retconned Black Canary back to being Dinah Drake in the comics, I'm really surprised they haven't brought Detective Lance (whatever first name you decide to give him) back into the comics as well.
Certainly, Q. Lance has a lot of great development. They've also done some interesting stuff with Felicity Smoak, who really is a new character with the same name as an obscure character from Firestorm.
I like the idea of what they are doing with Laurel, but different writers try to take her different, and conflicting places, and she's ended up with very wishy washy characterization as a result. They're also pulling stupid stuff with "we have to show she's strong/a fighter but we also have to repeatedly make her a damsel in distress so Ollie has someone to save." Most importantly, she really needs to NOT be a love interest, because once a character on the CW becomes "the love interest," they are not allowed to say, do, or be anything except a plot device for the male lead. And Laurel deserves to be a character, and not a device. The creators have said she gets a strong arc next season and I am really hoping they get a solid handle on her and she gets a good story. She may just need more time to be developed properly.
Assuming there is a 'Bat Embargo' I'd love to see an episode with Felicity, Helena (thank you DCTV for keeping 'My' Helena) and Laurel being the focus. IT's a CW Birds of Prey!
Bonus if Gail Simone writes it. :-)
I'm glad they used Helena Bertinelli, but her characterization has been AWFUL. It's like she was written by someone who heard about what the character was like secondhand from someone who didn't like the character and never really paid attention to what she did in the comics. I get that ArrowverseHelena is an alt universe character, but she's so one-dimensional in a TV show where most of the other characters have shown tremendous depth, or at least potential for it. She's just GRRRRRARGHPSYCHO, which is NOT what the Huntress was supposed to be about, not when she was written by her creators, not when she was written by anyone who knew what she was about. Huntress was RUTHLESS--she was a mafia princess after all--but she actually seldom killed and her viewpoint was a reasonable one for someone whose original "rogues gallery" were hard core mafiosos, drug runners, weapons dealers, and the like who would kill anyone for looking at them wrong. I remember an early issue of the original Huntress monthly where she gets mailed somebody's fingers. Those were the kind of enemies she had, you kind of had to be a little hard core to face them. She also had a nice side to her--she loved kids, became a teacher, was very protective, was very loyal to the few friends she kept. I don't care if Arrowverse Huntress has a different background, but her character profile in their series bible apparently just says, "Raging b&~+!," with no other personality traits, nothing to make her relatable or human, and it just makes me sad.
And if they'd hired an oak tree to play her, it'd be less wooden than Jessica deGaow. That doesn't help either.
If they bring Huntress back and give her some discernible humanity and complexity, I will be all for what you say.
And yes, why DCWarner's film and television offices are not banging down Gail Simone's door to have her at least CONSULT with their efforts if not write for them utterly baffles me.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I can see character development for her, in the same way I can see character development for Oliver becoming Ollie over time. I don't need EVERY hero being grimdark, for G_d's sake.
That's my concern about Winter Soldier, I don't need Steve going all angsty either.
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Eh. Helena Bertenelli can get off my lawn. I still miss the Helena Wayne Huntress that died in Crisis on Infinite Earths.
They brought back Supergirl, *three times.* They brought back the entire Multiverse. They even brought back friggin' Barry Allen. Yawn.
When's Kole gonna come back? She's really the only person who died in Crisis that I'd pay to see again. I love me some third tier forgotten characters... :)
Other random folk I wouldn't mind being not dead;
Garth/Tempest/Aqualad (although I really liked the cartoon Kalduran/Aqualad also!)
Arani Caulder/Celsius, of the second, even more ill-fated Doom Patrol.
Nightcrawler of Earth 616, from before he became the spawn of Azazel and / or the Pope. (wtf?)
Eh. Helena Bertenelli can get off my lawn. I still miss the Helena Wayne Huntress that died in Crisis on Infinite Earths.
Helena Wayne is the current DCU Huntress now, in World's Finest, so they've granted you your wish.
Wayne was my first (I used to enjoy her backups in the Wonder Woman comics), but Bertinelli was my favorite, personally. She's got a great character background and I always liked that she was connected to "real" criminals rather than costumed crazies. Plus I can't imagine Helena Wayne in this scene (mostly because Wayne would be too sane to challenge Lady Shiva to a fight, but still).
I can't see any reason why BOTH can't exist, however. Especially since you go, "they are from two different universes. They are here now. Done." It's not like there's ever been two characters with the same superhero ID before, or even with the same first name.
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I can't see any reason why BOTH can't exist, however. Especially since you go, "they are from two different universes. They are here now. Done." It's not like there's ever been two characters with the same superhero ID before, or even with the same first name.
True. It's not like Earth doesn't have three to five humans code-named 'Green Lantern' at any given time.
(No human women allowed, 'though. There can be Supergirls and Batwomen aplenty, but Power Rings and the Speed Force only seem to latch onto dudes, despite Green Lantern and the Flash having perfectly serviceable unisex names...)
I was unaware that the new refugee-from-Earth-2 Huntress is a flashback to the old child of retired Batman and retired Catwoman. Still, not the same character, so it's not really 'my' Huntress anymore than it's 'your' Huntress.
Go go gadget DC, split the difference and fail to make anyone happy.
(No human women allowed, 'though. There can be Supergirls and Batwomen aplenty, but Power Rings and the Speed Force only seem to latch onto dudes, despite Green Lantern and the Flash having perfectly serviceable unisex names...)
There aren't any female Green Lanterns? I was certain there were a decent number of 'em (if only as bit parts), even if they were alien women.
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(No human women allowed, 'though. There can be Supergirls and Batwomen aplenty, but Power Rings and the Speed Force only seem to latch onto dudes, despite Green Lantern and the Flash having perfectly serviceable unisex names...)There aren't any female Green Lanterns? I was certain there were a decent number of 'em (if only as bit parts), even if they were alien women.
There have been a few alien Green Lantern women, if they haven't killed them all again (last I heard both Katma Tui and Arisia were dead). But of the five or six humans (Hal, John, Kyle, Guy, Alan, the Asian guy whose name I forget...) who have been Green Lanterns, they've all been dudes.
Earth has even been temporarily assigned almost a half dozen *male* alien Green Lanterns (Kilowog, Ch'p, Salakk, G'nort), but still, no human women are 'worthy' to wear the ring.
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(No human women allowed, 'though. There can be Supergirls and Batwomen aplenty, but Power Rings and the Speed Force only seem to latch onto dudes, despite Green Lantern and the Flash having perfectly serviceable unisex names...)There aren't any female Green Lanterns? I was certain there were a decent number of 'em (if only as bit parts), even if they were alien women.There have been a few alien Green Lantern women, if they haven't killed them all again (last I heard both Katma Tui and Arisia were dead). But of the five or six humans (Hal, John, Kyle, Guy, Alan, the Asian guy whose name I forget...) who have been Green Lanterns, they've all been dudes.
Earth has even been temporarily assigned almost a half dozen *male* alien Green Lanterns (Kilowog, Ch'p, Salakk, G'nort), but still, no human women are 'worthy' to wear the ring.
If it makes you feel better, apparently men can't embrace the power of love* and be Star Saphires either. "anyone can join, but most men are not worthy." - Geoff Johns
If it makes you feel better, apparently men can't embrace the power of love* and be Star Saphires either. "anyone can join, but most men are not worthy." - Geoff Johns(No human women allowed, 'though. There can be Supergirls and Batwomen aplenty, but Power Rings and the Speed Force only seem to latch onto dudes, despite Green Lantern and the Flash having perfectly serviceable unisex names...)There aren't any female Green Lanterns? I was certain there were a decent number of 'em (if only as bit parts), even if they were alien women.There have been a few alien Green Lantern women, if they haven't killed them all again (last I heard both Katma Tui and Arisia were dead). But of the five or six humans (Hal, John, Kyle, Guy, Alan, the Asian guy whose name I forget...) who have been Green Lanterns, they've all been dudes.
Earth has even been temporarily assigned almost a half dozen *male* alien Green Lanterns (Kilowog, Ch'p, Salakk, G'nort), but still, no human women are 'worthy' to wear the ring.
The idea that only men can be strong willed and only women can be full of love shows a lot of why DC just DOESN'T GET IT in... well, mostly everything.
(I think it is more that strong willed-ness in a woman is seen as unattractive, and love in men is seen as a weakness, and THAT is the real problem.)
** spoiler omitted **
I would so read that comic.
I can't see any reason why BOTH can't exist, however. Especially since you go, "they are from two different universes. They are here now. Done." It's not like there's ever been two characters with the same superhero ID before, or even with the same first name.True. It's not like Earth doesn't have three to five humans code-named 'Green Lantern' at any given time.
It could even become a shared title, a team... actually, seeing Wayne team up with Bertinelli would be totally kickass.
I was unaware that the new refugee-from-Earth-2 Huntress is a flashback to the old child of retired Batman and retired Catwoman. Still, not the same character, so it's not really 'my' Huntress anymore than it's 'your' Huntress.
How is she different? Helena Wayne has always been from Earth 2. She is very specifically the daughter of Earth 2 Batman and Earth 2 Catwoman (read: Golden Age versions).
I only looked at the comic briefly, but as far as I can tell, the purple clad lady traipsing across the pages of World's Finest is the same one that used to swing through the stories in the back of Wonder Woman.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Deathquaker,
From a 'purist' viewpoint, she's different in the same way Nightwing is different post DCnU. Same character, different background. Now it's not as drastic as, say Raven or Gar, or Cassie Sandmark are in their DCnU versions. But there are differences, inclduing the 'lost in another world' aspect.
And she's clearly not as different as Alan Scott is. :-(
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For me it has to be War Witch from the original run of the City of Heroes comic. I really liked that character.
Deathquaker,
From a 'purist' viewpoint, she's different in the same way Nightwing is different post DCnU. Same character, different background. Now it's not as drastic as, say Raven or Gar, or Cassie Sandmark are in their DCnU versions. But there are differences, inclduing the 'lost in another world' aspect.
And she's clearly not as different as Alan Scott is. :-(
Fair enough. Like I said I only looked at the comic briefly, and it's been a very long time since I read the old Helena Wayne stories, so at a glance they looked the same, but I'll take your word for it she has that same "stranger cosplaying as a favorite character" feel that most DCU characters have these days.
And if you saw any of the "War of the Lantern Corps" storylines, they have some pretty strange ideas about compassion too... the Indigo Corps was alien to the point of incomprehensible, incredibly brutal and callous, and generally useless. That's 'compassion' in the DCU?
Not to mention, I tend to link love and compassion as sides of the same coin, so why they need to have both is puzzling. If you possess a great capacity for universal love, you are compassionate toward them; if you are compassionate, you find it easy to be loving toward others...
Deathquaker,
From a 'purist' viewpoint, she's different in the same way Nightwing is different post DCnU. Same character, different background. Now it's not as drastic as, say Raven or Gar, or Cassie Sandmark are in their DCnU versions. But there are differences, inclduing the 'lost in another world' aspect.
And she's clearly not as different as Alan Scott is. :-(
Fair enough. Like I said I only looked at the comic briefly, and it's been a very long time since I read the old Helena Wayne stories, so at a glance they looked the same, but I'll take your word for it she has that same "stranger cosplaying as a favorite character" feel that most DCU characters have these days.
Not to mention, I tend to link love and compassion as sides of the same coin, so why they need to have both is puzzling. If you possess a great capacity for universal love, you are compassionate toward them; if you are compassionate, you find it easy to be loving toward others...
And if you saw any of the "War of the Lantern Corps" storylines, they have some pretty strange ideas about compassion too... the Indigo Corps was alien to the point of incomprehensible, incredibly brutal and callous, and generally useless. That's 'compassion' in the DCU?
from what I understood, with the exception of maybe black hand, the indigo corps was composed of people who lacked compassion and then discovered it through the indigo power battery. It seems to be an artificial source of the emotion, as when removed fromit they go back to their original ways, but recall their actions with remorse.
Strikeforce Morituri.
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Ooh, X-Men 2099! Best X-team ever!
I have no idea how many of them are / are not dead, given that they pretty much drowned the entire continuity, but I loved just about every member of that team (and tagalongs like La Lunatica who probably weren't ever officially members of the team). Xian, Meanstreak, Krystallin, Bloodhawk, all awesome. As is typical for me, my least favorite was the one they focused the most time on, who never used his 'codename' of 'Skullfire' in the comics themselves.
Did someone already mention Oracle?
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Did someone already mention Oracle?
I think we mentioned the pre-boot 52 as a whole. :P
rant
"We want the character that is most visible in the media." Really, so that's why Robin is Dick Greyson or Tim Drake? Or why Wally West is the Flash?
"We don't want multiples of characters" Which is why there's only one Green Lantern, right?
"We want younger superheroes" Right, which is why Vic is now older since he was a peer of Dick and Kory and Roy (And Donna, and Wally, and Garth...)
What we got was a) a downgraded Barbara who lacks the skills, and confidence that Oracle had (note how Dick doesn't suffer any real downgrades from his own lobotomized past. He may not be an (ex-)cop anymore, but he was still Batman) and b) loss of two characters that had small but vocal followings. (And an apparent hatred of at least one, excising her from any continuity)
I need to amend that. Dick has lost a lot from the reboot. He's no longer loved by the super hero community, no longer a respected leader, and no longer his own man. All of that has been lost or parcelled out to Jason and Tim, ruining them as well.
If Didiot had just mandated flat out, "We're rolling back the clock, and part of that is a Barbara Gorden who is in her teens/20's and who was never paralyzed by the Joker" I think it would have gone over better. Instead, by making excuses... DC did something stupid.
Hmm, I need to work some more on getting my X-factor trade collection completed.
Matthew, tangenting off your spoiler, in my (likely unpopular) opinion, the Batgirl Title should be retired. We can have Oracle, Spoiler, Black Bat and ... Firebird (I think that was her name--Bette Kane). But no one ever gets called Batgirl again, and thus no one ever fights over who the best one is again.
I was thinking that if I was Quesadea or Didiot, I'd require a 5 year rule. If a character is killed off, he's at least dead for 5 years. Revisit him in 5 years and see if he should be let out of the fridge.
not a bad idea.
Matthew, tangenting off your spoiler, in my (likely unpopular) opinion, the Batgirl Title should be retired. We can have Oracle, Spoiler, Black Bat and ... Firebird (I think that was her name--Bette Kane). But no one ever gets called Batgirl again, and thus no one ever fights over who the best one is again.
but Fights over who is the best (insertcharacter name here) are awesome!
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Matthew, tangenting off your spoiler, in my (likely unpopular) opinion, the Batgirl Title should be retired. We can have Oracle, Spoiler, Black Bat and ... Firebird (I think that was her name--Bette Kane). But no one ever gets called Batgirl again, and thus no one ever fights over who the best one is again.but Fights over who is the best (insertcharacter name here) are awesome!
Well you're always going to have 'fights' but I think anything that allows a character to develop differently than be a carbon copy of a legacy is good.
Though I will admit the discussions between Gordon and Gage had an amusing element since Babs was Batgirl prior.
Gage: "No one raises an eyebrow when you talk to Batman."
Gordon: "I'm pretty sure Batman's legal, detective!"
Oh, and characters I miss. Catman.
Matthew, tangenting off your spoiler, in my (likely unpopular) opinion, the Batgirl Title should be retired. We can have Oracle, Spoiler, Black Bat and ... Firebird (I think that was her name--Bette Kane). But no one ever gets called Batgirl again, and thus no one ever fights over who the best one is again.Flamebird, now Hawkfire I think, has appeared in Batwoman, though I don't think she's ever been Batgirl in the new continuity. Or possibly even in the post-crisis continuity.
Have any of the others even appeared? Other than Barbara of course.
I just named everyone I could think of who's had the Batgirl mantle.
Oh, Helena Bertinelli also actually went around as Batgirl temporarily during No Man's Land, but that was basically as a disguise.
And yes, to my knowledge, Cassandra Cain and Stephanie Brown are still unaccounted for in the nDCU. I've heard rumors about plans for Stephanie coming back. That could be good or horrible, depending on what the plans actually are. Sometimes it's safer to think they aren't doing anything with characters you like, that way you know they won't mess them up.
But in a world where you have (potentially) all those characters show up, nobody gets called Batgirl. That's just all I'm sayin'.
Matthew, tangenting off your spoiler, in my (likely unpopular) opinion, the Batgirl Title should be retired. We can have Oracle, Spoiler, Black Bat and ... Firebird (I think that was her name--Bette Kane). But no one ever gets called Batgirl again, and thus no one ever fights over who the best one is again.but Fights over who is the best (insertcharacter name here) are awesome!
Split fanbases aren't. Especially when they diminish potential sales, because a group of fans won't buy a book unless (insert favorite version of superhero here) is the lead. When that split goes at least three ways, it's not helpful.
General Glory from the Moore era of JLA. Too goofy, happy and fun to survive in today's grimdark nu52.
I was thinking that if I was Quesadea or Didiot, I'd require a 5 year rule. If a character is killed off, he's at least dead for 5 years. Revisit him in 5 years and see if he should be let out of the fridge.
Also works on girlfriends!
Kahvi from Elfquest, even though her death hasn't been written in the comics yet, Wendy says she's in spirit form now.