The Andoran Effect


Pathfinder Online

Goblin Squad Member

If I remember correctly it was revealed not too long ago that the Andoran faction was played by a majority percentage of Pathfinder Society players.

The Jedi rush in Star Wars Galaxies has been cited, and it seems to be a natural trend to want to play on the side of good.

How will this play out in PFO? I'm interested to know if there will be any systems to counter balance a super majority of players, if one was to form.


Well, if you look at the "typical" Pathfinder party, it is going to be comprised of non-evil characters. In PFO, players will have the opportunity to play their character however they want to play. If you want to play an "evil" character, do you really want to have alot of other "evil" characters out there in the world?

Sure, you may group with other "bad guys," but do you trust them? Do they trust you? After all, you are all evil and just as likely to turn on eachother as you are to prey on helpless travelers if the opportunity presents itself.

Even lawful evil characters keep an eye on their associates and keep their organizations small or spread out for practical purposes. While you may have some RL allies that would never betray you in-game, the majority of evil people you are likely to run into in PFO will be people you don't know and potential rivals/enemies.

From what I understand (which is inherently limited due to my astounding ignorance of the mundane), "evil" characters are more likely to be "anti-heroes" or PvP individuals who organize themselves in pockets away from NPC communities. Since there are no "battle grounds" and no clearly set "good guys" and "bad guys" player character must absolutely align with, there should be no issue for whether player characters are rolling more paladins than rogues.

Goblin Squad Member

The Andoran faction dominating Pathfinder society does not explcitely fall under the vale of an inconvenience of evil.

Goblin Squad Member

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As long as no one breaks The Six River Freedoms I don't care what the citizens of the River Kingdoms do, they are free here to live as they wish. But once you break your Oath I will be forced to track you down and slide my blade across your throat, your blood will flow like the Sellen River leaving your last mark on this planet.

Silver Crusade

organized wrote:

If I remember correctly it was revealed not too long ago that the Andoran faction was played by a majority percentage of Pathfinder Society players.

The Jedi rush in Star Wars Galaxies has been cited, and it seems to be a natural trend to want to play on the side of good.

How will this play out in PFO? I'm interested to know if there will be any systems to counter balance a super majority of players, if one was to form.

I'd love to know where you saw stats that Andoran faction are a majority. That hasn't been my experience. I have 4 characters in 4 different factions, including 1 Andoran. To my knowledge, there's only 1 other Andoran faction PC in my local group, made up of 8 players, most of whom have multiple characters.

Attending my first convention recently, I think I played at tables with 2 other Andoran faction members in the 5 sessions I played, and we had at least 5 PCs at every table.

From what I've seen, I'd actually guess that Grand Lodge is the most popular faction, just because it's the default for newbies who don't know enough to choose a faction based on their different personalities.

Anyone official care to share stats on this?

Goblinworks Founder

I'd like to see your actions affect how people react to you, whether it's lower prices or people waving to you as you pass, or guards chasing you on sight.

Think it'd be interesting to group with a character who tends towards the evil side, with how camping/resting works that evil guy might have a contract to take out a party member. His action would be if he chose to do it, or not do it and stop the next assassin who wants to off that player and himself.

Think something like Mass Effect in how actions affect you later on.

Goblin Squad Member

Fromper wrote:
I'd love to know where you saw stats that Andoran faction are a majority. That hasn't been my experience.

I most likely heard about it in either the Know Direction or Pathfinder Chronicles podcasts. It was right before the new factions became available.

It was presented that some of the new factions (and the ability to change factions) were created to help break up Andoran dominance.

It could have been speculative information but I believe the stats came from official sources.

With all this talk of PVP and Kingdom building I can't imagine that factions won't be a large part of the game. (Not necessarily the same ones as society play)

Factions will be a much more interesting game element if there are balanced factions of opossing players.

What I'd actually like to see is scaling greater incentives and rewards available for aiding minority factions. On the opposing end any super group of players should begin to face an increasing scale of diminishing returns.

Probably not the most realistic economic model, but I'm interested in something that will maintain balance and competition.

Sovereign Court Goblin Squad Member

I've heard the Andoran effect (I suspect the silver crusade might be catching up) myself.

Rey is Shadow Lodge because it fits his idea of not being controlled by anyone (yes, I know, insert irony here). He's also Taldor born, so he would likely aid any Taldan missions that don't compromise his ethics. He also doesn't have the 'Taldor mission skillset'

If I get a chance to play my fighter/rogue, she'll be Taldan, because I as a real life person like the plot hooks in Taldor.

Cheliax just needs better PR :-)

Goblin Squad Member

organized wrote:

Factions will be a much more interesting game element if there are balanced factions of opossing players.

What I'd actually like to see is scaling greater incentives and rewards available for aiding minority factions. On the opposing end any super group of players should begin to face an increasing scale of diminishing returns.

Probably not the most realistic economic model, but I'm interested in something that will maintain balance and competition.

I think what you're asking for is mechanisms to strengthen local barons and discourage the formation of large centralized kings (using European history as a rough example).

More realistic economic models could be the balancing factor, but I'm sure the MMO-player base won't accept a game that requires 80-90% of the players to be bound to the land as serfs. But there's no reason GW couldn't make the cost of operating and maintaining structures high enough that ~80% of the resources created within a hex went to various maintenance requirements. Also, if resources and treasure have to actually be moved by players from a settlement in one hex to the next settlement, then multi-hex lords have to apply player-power to running and protecting the caravans, creating and maintaining road networks, etc. Friction, waste, and small holdings is what we're looking for, not efficient and modern states.

Silver Crusade

Urman wrote:
organized wrote:

Factions will be a much more interesting game element if there are balanced factions of opossing players.

What I'd actually like to see is scaling greater incentives and rewards available for aiding minority factions. On the opposing end any super group of players should begin to face an increasing scale of diminishing returns.

Probably not the most realistic economic model, but I'm interested in something that will maintain balance and competition.

I think what you're asking for is mechanisms to strengthen local barons and discourage the formation of large centralized kings (using European history as a rough example).

More realistic economic models could be the balancing factor, but I'm sure the MMO-player base won't accept a game that requires 80-90% of the players to be bound to the land as serfs. But there's no reason GW couldn't make the cost of operating and maintaining structures high enough that ~80% of the resources created within a hex went to various maintenance requirements. Also, if resources and treasure have to actually be moved by players from a settlement in one hex to the next settlement, then multi-hex lords have to apply player-power to running and protecting the caravans, creating and maintaining road networks, etc. Friction, waste, and small holdings is what we're looking for, not efficient and modern states.

I think one of us just accidentally wandered into the wrong conversation, and I'm honestly not sure which.

Goblin Squad Member

I thought the OP was talking about factions within the Pathfinder Society as an example of how one faction could grow and dominate a game-space. From what I've read from the GW blog, players in PFO won't belong to NPCs factions set by the game; they'll form factions/kingdoms as they choose, combining and allying settlements or chartered companies.

The question that I thought he asked was: would there be mechanisms in PFO to counter large factions that would otherwise dominate the game-space. That's the part I was answering, but yeah, I could be in the wrong conversation.

Goblin Squad Member

I imagine the players will actively resist any attempt by a single player-faction to dominate the game-space.

I mean, it happened in EVE with the Band of Brothers Alliance.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Skwiziks wrote:

I imagine the players will actively resist any attempt by a single player-faction to dominate the game-space.

I mean, it happened in EVE with the Band of Brothers Alliance.

I want that guy (the writer) on PFO. Preferably as a GM, but I'd settle for having him as an ally.

Goblin Squad Member

I wasn't exactly sure how to word the question in my original post, but I must have missed the part about joinable NPC factions not being in game.

I still have the same question about player created factions/guilds or whatever you would like to call them.

Skwizik's EVE example is excellent, but is this the exception or the rule with most mmorpgs?

Goblin Squad Member

When you introduce a mechanic in an MMO where you can build any kind of meaningful presence, there will always be a dominating faction. It's human nature to want to be part of the most successful enterprise. At the same time, it's also human nature to want to tear that down.

Will there be mega-factions at play in Pathfinder Online? Yes. They might not appear for a couple of years until the first kingdoms begin to stabilise, but it will happen, either through merging of kingdoms in light of a greater threat or simply by pounding their enemies into the ground.

This will happen, there is absolutely no doubt in my mind, and it shouldn't be discouraged. Running a large enterprise like that is a difficult thing to do without having the organisation fall apart so if they can actually run something like that successfully in-game, more power to them. If they hold some choice resources, then there will be opposing factions looking to take those resources from them. Heck, small-scale PvP companies can get in on the action too, as the larger factions purchase their time to harass their enemies in the field of battle.

Pathfinder Online is shaping up to be a game of many different levels, from the solo crafter who wants to spend all his time in a safe environment up to the egomaniacal players who want to run a kingdom.

Goblin Squad Member

Here's a trick: I don't think these NPC factions will be what winds up dominating the landscape. It's the PLAYER factions that shape the world; the player-created charters, towns, and later kingdoms. Those will be what is important. The NPC factions are just there to give players a kick-start at the beginning.

Goblin Squad Member

Sorry, yes, that's what I meant. NPC factions won't be able to control hexes outside in addition to the ones they control at the start of the game, I would think.

Dark Archive

I want to add that I think andoran being so big was untrue. It seemed to me that in the past, back when there were only 5 factions, being first in the alphabet made andoran the default faction unless the player went online to change it. I am rather ticked off that a few of my early points from my true factions went to andor, home of the "REBEL SCUM." I think the new default is the grand lodge. Much less offensive to me. Though I still dislike that he sends people he does not like on the hard missions. I think he should save his best people for the tough assignments if he wants things accomplished and not failed so the consortium can swipe it away from the society.

Goblin Squad Member

Everybody wants to be the good guys? I think that also depends on the playerbase - which does not yet exist for PFO. I remember, before Darkfall launched, everyone in the forums wanted to play a bad guy, an assassin, a robber and such, while no one was interested in "being good" - I think in the end, if the playerbase is unbiased (which I could see happen for PFO) the game's reward system will determine to which side players tend to go. (by the way don't forget the neutral characters!)
Most games have much content and playground for good guys which makes it really hard to play an evil character.

So, devs, give us some theme park elements! World events which feature creatures spawning and evil characters joining them or something like that.

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