Dragon with Wizard Class levels.


Rules Questions


So, I have a dragon in my game that has become a wizard.

I am trying to work some things out, namely, does this in anyway stack with its CL as a dragon (aka, pseudo sorcerer)? That becoming Wizard 1 makes an adult green dragon go up a CR seems a bit odd to me, as all of its spells are ridiculously ineffectual for its current power level (though the ability score changes are considerable).

I understand that sorcerer and wizard are separate things, but I'm still puzzled here. Do any of its spellcasting abilities stack together (monster advancement in bestiary seems to imply this, but not state too clearly as it relates to different spellcasting types)? I suppose I'm confused by the fact that it isn't a 5th level sorcerer, but merely casts spells -like- a sorcerer.

Thank you.

Dark Archive

I suppose you could replace his sorcerer caster levels with wizard caster levels. It now casts spells as a 6th level wizard.

Or you might just want to add a sorcerer level instead.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

No, sorcerer and wizard never stack together which why you never see a dragon wizard. If you added sorcerer levels, those would stack with it's innate abilities, but it's seldom neccessary as the major dragons will make it to 19th or greater casting level on their own.

When you sub in wizard instead of sorcerer than you've got to deal with things that are problematic for such huge creatures, spell books, spell pouches, material components.

That's the beauty thing about being a sorcerer for a dragon with it's inherent charisma. They don't need any of that baggage and being a sorcerer is an expression of their inherent magic. That's why in 3.x being a sorcerer implied a bit of dragon in your bloodline somewhere.


Fair points, and thank you for the quick replies.

I was reading through Dragons Revisited and I loved the idea of a scholarly green dragon. That it was determined to amplify its power through research and study of magic rather than simply waiting to grow older and let more of its innate power manifest.

Plus it has already become a plot point that it exchanged tutelage from a wizard in exchange for the protection of that wizard and his village.
As the last session left it, it traded the PC wizard's spell book for the diamond needed to bring back the paladin, so I definitely want to go with it being a wizard.

Perhaps I can work with the idea of it somehow permanently converting its sorcerer CL into wizard? It loses spontaneous casting in exchange for the ability to learn from books...
Eschew Materials takes care of the most glaring problem (I do have trouble picturing it with a bag of ingredients), which just leaves its spellbook and a bonded item. Both things that the PCs could try to destroy before the final confrontation comes.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

You're the DM, you write it up however you want it, and you're only obliged to answer questions that the characters can legitimately ask. And remember for a Dragon asked about his personal life, his legitimate answer can very well be. "None of your scaleless pink skinned buisness."

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Tim Hunt 103 wrote:
Eschew Materials takes care of the most glaring problem (I do have trouble picturing it with a bag of ingredients), which just leaves its spellbook and a bonded item. Both things that the PCs could try to destroy before the final confrontation comes.

If the dragon has some way of assuming a humanoid form then it could have a normal spellbook hidden away in its lair somewhere. Alternatively, it could use telekinesis to turn pages, have a familiar which does so for it, use a really big book, have its spells inscribed on the walls of its lair rather than in a book, or if you are ok tweaking things a bit further have a Witch style 'familiar which is also a spellbook'.

The easiest way to handle it would be to just swap effective Wizard level in for Sorcerer level. In original AD&D it was actually fairly common for creatures to have different possible spell-casting classes... for example Faerie Dragons could cast spells as a Wizard (65%) or Druid (35%). In v3 the whole 'spontaneous casting = sorcerer' thing seems to have killed off most of that potential for different spell-casting types, which is a shame IMO.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
CBDunkerson wrote:


The easiest way to handle it would be to just swap effective Wizard level in for Sorcerer level. In original AD&D it was actually fairly common for creatures to have different possible spell-casting classes... for example Faerie Dragons could cast spells as a Wizard (65%) or Druid (35%). In v3 the whole 'spontaneous casting = sorcerer' thing seems to have killed off most of that potential for different spell-casting types, which is a shame IMO.

AD&D isn't really a fair comparison given that the bulk of your PC population was really only fighter, magic-user, thief, and cleric. There was no such thing as spontaneous casting or a spellcasting class for every letter of the alphabet.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
LazarX wrote:
AD&D isn't really a fair comparison given that the bulk of your PC population was really only fighter, magic-user, thief, and cleric.

Sure, so long as we ignore Bard, Druid, Paladin, and Ranger... and all the additional classes which were added in other materials than just the original PH. Were you thinking D&D Basic Set?

Quote:
There was no such thing as spontaneous casting or a spellcasting class for every letter of the alphabet.

Except, of course, the fact that various creatures COULD spontaneously cast spells. As noted, the Faerie Dragon could spontaneously cast Wizard spells (e.g. be what we now call a 'Sorcerer') or DRUID spells... which is a spontaneous option that no longer exists. The Oracle re-introduced the idea of spontaneous divine spell-casting so hopefully we'll eventually get back to creatures that inherently have such abilities.


By the rules (as indicated), wizard wouldn't stack, sorcerer would.

I use Magic Rating and that way the caster level (but not spell progression) would stack.

I'd suggest just letting it cast as a wizard, it's not a buff to the dragon in any way.


You are the GM, if you want a green dragon that developed as a wizard instead of a sorcerer, then you can have a green dragon that developed as a wizard instead of a sorcerer.

If it were me, I'd just swap out the sorcerer levels for wizard levels and move on. I'd probably take "eschew materials" as a feat, although I really don't see any problem with dragons manipulating items with their hands. They have big hands for sure, but they are still able to hold and manipulate items. Some of my dragons use magic weapons. Most wear barding.

As a player if I encountered a dragon with wizard instead of sorcerer levels I'd congratulate my GM for being flexible and original.

I'm not sure I'd make a green dragon scholarly though. I did something like this once with a blue dragon.


You could also go with the Sage sorcerer bloodline from Ultimate Magic. The flavor there of controlling one's magical ability through intellectual understanding of it seems to fit what you're going for.

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