The Pouch of Infinite Stars (Help me price it, please!)


Homebrew and House Rules


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All righty then, folks. I need help pricing out this magic item, the Pouch of Infinite Stars. Let me give some background information, first.

There are many times when I have played a monk and desired to use shurikens as ranged weapons. Three things have stopped me dead in my tracks each time:

1. They function as ammunition and are destroyed upon hitting their target.

2. At a half-pound for 5 throwing stars, having any endurance is going to quickly add up, especially at higher levels when a monk might get off as many as ten (10!) in a single round.

3. The cost of enchanting these disposable weapons is quite high, considering how quickly a monk goes through them.

Now, these problems must have come to the attention of some sage or wizard somewhere, and perhaps a monk in the game world had them craft an item to solve this. Which brings us to . . .

The Pouch of Infinite Stars:

THE POUCH OF INFINITE STARS

This leather pouch is designed to worn on a belt. Unremarkable in appearance, it is actually quite heavily enchanted. Upon looking into the pouch, it appears to contain ten shuriken. The wearer may draw and throw them as needed. The magic of this item then becomes readily apparent. At the start of the wearer's next turn, the pouch once again refills with ten new shuriken! The bearer of this item never need fear running out of throwing stars so long as he wears this item. Shuriken removed from the pouch vanish after one round, whether or not they are thrown or if they strike a target.

Twice per day, the bearer of the pouch may utter a command word as a swift action. After doing so, any shuriken he draws from the pouch possess a +2 enhancement bonus. This effect lasts until the start of the possessers next round. A few rare pouches only possess a +1 enhancement bonus, but also provide a +1 special weapon property, such as distance, flaming, frost, or seeking. Such pouches of infinite shuriken never possess the returning property.

Weight: 2 lbs.

The problem that I am having is pricing the dang thing! Any advice?

Master Arminas


I think I would price it as a +2 returning weapon. Since effectively that's what it is. I would prolly make it a bandolier though.

Liberty's Edge

The spell abundant ammunition is a 1st level spell.
Add to that the cost of weapon enchantment.

If it just conjured standard shuriken, I would say it has a base price of 2000 gp. (1x1x2000) with a crafting cost of 1000 gp.

Add to that the cost of enchanting a +2 weapon, another 4,000 gp base price (2,000 gp cost)

Since the pouch has two powers, the least expensive power costs 1.5 times as much as normal.

So, total base price: 7,000 gp. Crafting cost 3,500 gp.

EDIT: Oh, and it doesn't take up a slot, so that doubles the cost again, to 14,000 gp base price (or 7,000 gp crafting).

I would make it a belt slot item to avoid this extra cost.


+1 i like this item immensely :)


Hmmmmmm. 14,000 gp. That sounds reasonable. But question: 4,000 gp for a +2 weapon? It's 8,000 gp for a +2 weapon (price; 4,000 gp cost). But that property is usable only 2 rounds a day. I don't know.

Definately not a belt slot; monks are screwed without that Belt of Physical Perfection.

Master Arminas


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"My god, it's full of stars!"


stardust wrote:

The spell abundant ammunition is a 1st level spell.

Add to that the cost of weapon enchantment.

If it just conjured standard shuriken, I would say it has a base price of 2000 gp. (1x1x2000) with a crafting cost of 1000 gp.

Add to that the cost of enchanting a +2 weapon, another 4,000 gp base price (2,000 gp cost)

Since the pouch has two powers, the least expensive power costs 1.5 times as much as normal.

So, total base price: 7,000 gp. Crafting cost 3,500 gp.

EDIT: Oh, and it doesn't take up a slot, so that doubles the cost again, to 14,000 gp base price (or 7,000 gp crafting).

I would make it a belt slot item to avoid this extra cost.

Actually, I would price this item at 11,320 slotted and 22,640 unslotted. My reasoning being 8,320 GP for +2 Shuriken, 3,000 gp for the abundant property (1*1*2000*1/5) totaling 11,320 gp; or 11,320*2 (for no body slot) to make 22,640 gp.

However, keep in mind, that would be for the ability to always have +2 shurikens. For the ability requested in the OP, it would be (2/5)8320 + 3000 = 6,328 for a slotted item, or 12,656 for an unslotted item. So that would be (for the unslotted) 12,656 gp to throw an infinite supply of masterwork shuriken and twice per day make all shuriken thrown in a round be treated as +2 shuriken.

[Edit] An alternative is an item I whipped up as an idea. It's very much so a spell-in-a-can but that wasn't a concern of mine.

Ice Shard Bracers:
Ice Shard Bracers
Aura
Faint Conjuration (creation); CL 3rd or 6th
Slot wrists; Price 6,000 gp (for lesser) 12,000 gp (for greater); Weight 3 lbs.
Description

These clear, blue bracers appears as slabs of ice forged into armor and come in two versions, lesser and greater. With but a thought, the lesser ice shard bracers create masterwork quality daggers in each hand. The daggers do normal damage if used, plus one point of cold damage. If thrown, the bracers automatically create new daggers allowing those with multiple attacks to throw multiple daggers each round. The daggers created by the lesser ice shard bracers melt one round after leaving your hands.

The greater ice shard bracers function in all ways as the lesser variant, except the daggers created are +1 frost daggers.

Construction
Requirements
Crafter Wondrous Item, Craft Arms and Armor, icicle dagger; Cost 3,000 gp (for lesser) or 6,000 gp (for greater)

Liberty's Edge

Oh, yes, sorry... +2 weapon is 8000 gp.

I always forget to put in the price of the masterwork weapon when crafting enchanted weapons too... So nice catch there too.

Just correcting your format above.

(2/5)8,320+(1*1*2000*1.5)=6,328 or 12,656.


Have you looked at the 3.5 gauntlet of infinite blades?

Skimming over the relevant bits:

  • Activate as a swift action to produce a dagger which lasts 3 rounds
  • Use 1 charge to create a +3 dagger instead
  • Use 3 charges to create a +3 dagger of seeking
  • Use 5 charges to create a +3 bane dagger of seeking, you pick the type
  • Has 5 charges/day
  • Cost 6500 gp

    It's not exactly what you're after, but it seems like a relevant data point


  • If I was your GM I would break it down like this:

    A pouch of infinite stars is, effectively, the equivalent of an archer having a magic bow and a version of an efficient quiver.

    I would therefore have making a pouch the equivalent of making a magic bow. you would require a masterwork pouch then the cost of the modifiers on top. I'd let you build this up to the standard +5 modifier with +5 effects for a total of +10.

    The effiecient quiver normally only allows a limited number of arrows in it, but also allows staves and javelins. The benefit is that you can put different types of arrow and carry wands and things about. The disadvantage is that you still have to buy the arrows and you can run out in a long fight. I would reckon that losing the flexibility of being able to put different types of star (different bane stars or aligned stars) in the pouch is the equivalent of being able to have infinite stars of one type, and allows a tedious bit of book keeping to be hand waved into the bargain, so I would allow you to add the "infinite" part of the item to be the cost of an efficient quiver. 1800gp

    With a few modifiers To use a bow you need to hold it one hand and potentially drop it when going into melee combat, your pouch does not use up a hand or require you to drop valuable equipment mid combat. I would add 2000gp to the price because of this.

    I would argue that this is a no slot item to keep the costs in line with other weapon style items.

    So total cost: MW cost of item (150) plus 3800 plus whatever weapon modifiers you add.

    Liberty's Edge

    I disagree, this is a considerably more powerful magic item than the efficient quiver which is based on the secret chest spell. This *creates* ammunition at will, rather than providing a place to store ammunition.

    Although, I agree that if a pouch of infinite stars provided extradimensional storage space for, about 60 shurikens without providing any extra enhancements, then it would be the same value as an efficient quiver.

    In the case of a pouch of infinite stars that holds 60 shurikens in an extradimensional space, and can enchant them as +2 weapons twice per day would be as follows:

    (2/5 8,320)+(1*1*900*1.5) = 3,328+1,350 = 4,678 gp if slotted or 9,356 gp if unslotted.


    So, we are looking at a price range of 13,000-14,000 gp for the version that can enhance the shuriken twice per day. I can go with that.

    Craft Wondrous Item is a must; would this item also require craft magic arms and armor? What caster level would be used? 6th (for the +2)? Any spells beside abundent ammunition and magic weapon?

    Master Arminas


    Oh. The price would be higher, Stardust. Abundent ammunition has a duration of 1 minute/level, which by the magic item creation chart is a x2 multiplier.

    So . . .

    Create shuriken (caster level 1 x 1st level spell x 2,000 gp x 2) is a price of 4,000 gp.

    +2 Shuriken (in two batches of 10) (8,000 gp + 140 gp (masterwork shuriken cost 7 gp each) divided by 2.5 (for the 2 charges)) is a price of 3,256. Now this property is the secondary, becoming 4,884 gp.

    That brings the price to 8,884 gp, which is then doubled for a slotless item to 17,768 gp, costing 8,884 gp to craft.

    Right?

    Master Arminas

    Liberty's Edge

    Ah, yes you are right, I missed that footnote. There are too many footnotes in magic item creation. (It's not very streamlined, is it?)

    But the second version I put up, could also work (costs less too).


    The extradimensional space that holds 60 shuriken? I'll have to think about that one. It is cheaper.

    Master Arminas


    Creating magic items is as much a science as it is an art. Frankly, I ignore a several of the footnotes if I get the item to a price that 'feels right' balance wise. 13,000 ish is a number that feels right for an infinite supply of shuriken that can be enhanced to +2 twice per day. Anything more than that and it really isn't worth it, for the most part.


    Okay then. So how does this look as magic item?

    THE POUCH OF INFINITE STARS
    Aura: Moderate conjuration
    CL: 6th
    Slot: None
    Price: 13,000 gp
    Weight: 2 lb
    Description: This leather pouch is designed to worn on a belt. Unremarkable in appearance, it is actually quite heavily enchanted. Upon looking into the pouch, it appears to contain ten shuriken. The wearer may draw and throw them as needed. The magic of this item then becomes readily apparent. At the start of the wearer's next turn, the pouch once again refills with ten new shuriken! The bearer of this item never need fear running out of throwing stars so long as he wears this item. Shuriken removed from the pouch vanish after one round, whether or not they are thrown or if they strike a target.
    Twice per day, the bearer of the pouch may utter a command word as a swift action. After doing so, any shuriken he draws from the pouch possess a +2 enhancement bonus. This effect lasts until the start of the possessers next round. A few rare pouches only possess a +1 enhancement bonus, but also provide a +1 special weapon property, such as distance, flaming, frost, or seeking. Such pouches of infinite shuriken never possess the returning property.

    CONSTRUCTION
    Requirements: Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Wondrous Item, abundent ammunition, magic weapon*
    Cost: 6,500gp

    *Pouches of infinite stars with a special weapon property, such as the pouch of infinite flaming stars or the pouch of infinite seeking stars add the spell listed in the special weapons property to the requirements listed above. See Magic Weapon Special Ability Descriptions (pg. 461-463) in the Core Reference Document for exact details.

    Master Arminas

    Liberty's Edge

    I think you should also have the spell requirements for distance, flaming, frost, seeking enchantments be part of the construction method, or else those won't be available as enchantments. You could make themed versions (those that only use distance, flaming, frost, or seeking). In fact, I might even hypothesize that the ability to choose any of those enchantments increases the value quite a bit. But I could be wrong.

    The Pouch of Infinite Stars of Distance
    The Pouch of Infinite Stars of Fire
    The Pouch of Infinite Stars of Sight
    The Pouch of Infinite Stars of Ice

    could all be distant versions with their own creation technique, but similarity in price.


    I've edited the post above to incorporate your suggestion, Stardust. Does that work better?

    MA


    +2 returning dagger would cost 18,000gp. I might even add more since it is weapon which breaks the standard game design. I would add an additional 1000gp to it.

    Making a flurryable weapon cheaper than that is too cheap.

    pricing it as a weapon would make it easier to change the level of enchantment.


    19,000 gp? The weapons are only +2 for TWO ROUNDS each day. The rest of the time they are just normal shuriken. And you want to price that higher than a +3 weapon that is always on?

    Master Arminas


    Don't insist on pricing it by a strict formula based on spell levels and stuff. Price it based on how powerful it is.

    Unless you know some broken trick to use with shuriken that wouldn't work with a bow, just price it the same as a normal magic weapon. 2000 for +1, 8000 for +2, etc., with an infinite number of shuriken that fade a few minutes after you throw them.


    Wow, I had totally missed that twice per day part...=\

    Wow, that's of limited use then. So needs to be cheaper...

    For soem reason I had read it as a pouch that just produced +2 shuriken, which would have made perfect sense for how I priced it, I think I would want +1 distance instead however...since they have such short range to begin with.

    Liberty's Edge

    I would price a bag that produced one type of magical shuriken at 13,000. But for a bag that lets you choose the enchantment, I think an extra 2,000 isn't too bad a deal. So 15,000 for that one. (7500 to craft)


    Just throwing this in quickly and avoiding the Math-Fu, but considering how little damage a shuriken does, having the ability to stand there and go "Wah-tah-tah-tah-tah-taaaaaaah!" for several rounds without needing to have a packmule carrying your ammunition wandering around in your general vicinity does not make the item 'better' than a Magical Bow with a Extradimensional Quiver.

    Let's say, a 12th level Monk who has a Strength and Dexterity of 18 (14+4 from a Belt) and the Pouch of Stars, vs a 12th level Ranger with Strength and Dexterity of 18 (14+4 from a Belt) with the Archery tree, a unenchanted Composite (+4) Longbow and ye olde tardis-quiver.

    Monk is dealing (assuming point-blank feat and precise shot feat) 1d2+5 damage with a Flurry of +17/+17/+12/+12/+7 total maximum damage 35 points of damage total minimum damage 30.

    Ranger is dealing (assuming point-blank bonus feat and precise shot bonus feat) 1d8+5 damage with an attack rate of +17/+12/+7 total maximum damage 39 points of damage total minimum damage 18.

    Not too bad, but now add on enhancement effects to both, and again the Bow will pull ahead of the Shuriken noticeably. That said, I like this idea, as it gives a 'ranged' Monk a chance to be viable without nicking the Archer's gear to do so.

    Mind you considering the Monk can run up and punch God in the face, at best the Pouch of Infinite Stars seems to be more a harrassment tool for a Monk to use at range, possibly to attract and 'aggro' a group and then use his unmatched speed and reflexes to bring them to the PC's trap.

    Liberty's Edge

    True, and as I had pointed out above, an extradimensional space would be priced differently. But lets look at something else. Lets say that the magical properties of an extradimensional space are suppressed, and the shurikens (or arrows) then burst through their container.

    It's quite a different effect from an item which creates ammunition at will. If the ability to create ammunition at will is suppressed, the item just stops making ammunition.

    For example, we can look at some 3PP. The everloaded ability is regarded as a +2 weapon enchantment. (creates ammunition at will). The storing enchantment is regarded as a +1 weapon enchantment. (creates an extradimensional storage space for ammunition.)

    It is indeed possible, however, to create a magical bow with unlimited ammunition, but it should also be priced different from a magical bow with an extradimensional quiver. One relies on conjuration(creation) magic, the other on conjuration(summoning) magic. So there are some differences.


    So what is the consensus here, LOL. Is 13,000 gp appropriate or does it need to go up? (Or down, but if anything, probably up.)

    Master Arminas


    HalfOrcHeavyMetal wrote:

    Just throwing this in quickly and avoiding the Math-Fu, but considering how little damage a shuriken does, having the ability to stand there and go "Wah-tah-tah-tah-tah-taaaaaaah!" for several rounds without needing to have a packmule carrying your ammunition wandering around in your general vicinity does not make the item 'better' than a Magical Bow with a Extradimensional Quiver.

    Let's say, a 12th level Monk who has a Strength and Dexterity of 18 (14+4 from a Belt) and the Pouch of Stars, vs a 12th level Ranger with Strength and Dexterity of 18 (14+4 from a Belt) with the Archery tree, a unenchanted Composite (+4) Longbow and ye olde tardis-quiver.

    Monk is dealing (assuming point-blank feat and precise shot feat) 1d2+5 damage with a Flurry of +17/+17/+12/+12/+7 total maximum damage 35 points of damage total minimum damage 30.

    Ranger is dealing (assuming point-blank bonus feat and precise shot bonus feat) 1d8+5 damage with an attack rate of +17/+12/+7 total maximum damage 39 points of damage total minimum damage 18.

    Not too bad, but now add on enhancement effects to both, and again the Bow will pull ahead of the Shuriken noticeably. That said, I like this idea, as it gives a 'ranged' Monk a chance to be viable without nicking the Archer's gear to do so.

    Mind you considering the Monk can run up and punch God in the face, at best the Pouch of Infinite Stars seems to be more a harrassment tool for a Monk to use at range, possibly to attract and 'aggro' a group and then use his unmatched speed and reflexes to bring them to the PC's trap.

    The ranger will probably have Rapid Shot as a feat by 12th level, which then matches the -2 penalty the monk has with flurry of blows. So add one more arrow to the ranger and I think it works. Also we need to take into consideration the differing range increments: bows have 60-ft. to 110 ft. increments, depending on size (short or long) and composistion (normal or composite). Shuriken have a range increment of 10 ft.

    Master Arminas

    Liberty's Edge

    master arminas wrote:

    So what is the consensus here, LOL. Is 13,000 gp appropriate or does it need to go up? (Or down, but if anything, probably up.)

    Master Arminas

    I believe it should be 15,000 gp if the user can choose any of the enchantments when he uses them, but only 13,000 gp if the bag comes with a certain enchantment.


    Well, I had intended for it to be one specific enchantment, so that means 13,000 gp it is!

    Thanks guys.

    Master Arminas

    Liberty's Edge

    And actually I was wrong about abundant ammunition being a conjuration (creation) spell. It too is a conjuration (summoning) spell, but that does not really make sense to me, as a summoning spell brings something to you from somewhere else (usually extraplanar, but not necessarily). The only way abundant ammunition could be a summoning spell is if that ammunition existed elsewhere in the universe and was moved from their location to the caster's.


    i'd make it like 3k.


    I think I would make it Gloves of Infinite Stars. Kind of flick the wrists and blades pop into your hands. I think I'd prefer the Wushu Dart version though.


    One of my friends made something like this for me and the total price came out to 15,000gp for me because it was use-activated, allowed me to have endless shuriken that I could throw as many times as I was allowed per turn (which at the time was three when spending a ki point)

    *edit: I forgot, they were also enchanted with 1d6 fire damage.
    Also...I'm not the actual owner of this account, just the girlfriend that is too lazy to log out and in again...


    Hmm I see everyone making the cost of the enchantment at for the stars at a 1.5 multiplier. But I thought that was for items that were different abilities. Would not summoning the stars and the enchantment to go with it be instead similar abilities?

    Multiple Similar Abilities: For items with multiple similar abilities that don't take up space on a characters body, use the following formula: Calculate the price of the single most costly ability, then add 75% of the value of the next most costly ability, plus 1/2 the value of any other abilities.

    To me something that is creating the ammo would defiantly be something that goes along with the actual enchantment, and we have been talking about an item that does not take up a slot which also goes along with the statement.

    10 +2 Shuriken 8070gp (usable 2x per day) / 2.5 = 3228gp

    1st level spell (abundant ammunition) x 1st level caster x 2000gp x 2 for spell only lasting 1 min per level = 4000gp

    So 4000gp + (3228*0.75=2421) = 6421gp

    Now this to me would depend on the GM, are they treating this like a weapon? If so then I would rule that it does not get the x2 multiplier for taking up no space, because you never see that on other weapons because realistically they are taking up your "hand" slot like a normal weapon would when you use them.

    If your GM rules it is just a no space item then give it the x2 price for a total of 12,842gp

    Thoughts on my interpretation of the rules??


    So around 13,000 gp since it a slotless item. Good.

    Master Arminas


    Banecrow wrote:

    Hmm I see everyone making the cost of the enchantment at for the stars at a 1.5 multiplier. But I thought that was for items that were different abilities. Would not summoning the stars and the enchantment to go with it be instead similar abilities?

    Multiple Similar Abilities: For items with multiple similar abilities that don't take up space on a characters body, use the following formula: Calculate the price of the single most costly ability, then add 75% of the value of the next most costly ability, plus 1/2 the value of any other abilities.

    To me something that is creating the ammo would defiantly be something that goes along with the actual enchantment, and we have been talking about an item that does not take up a slot which also goes along with the statement.

    10 +2 Shuriken 8070gp (usable 2x per day) / 2.5 = 3228gp

    1st level spell (abundant ammunition) x 1st level caster x 2000gp x 2 for spell only lasting 1 min per level = 4000gp

    So 4000gp + (3228*0.75=2421) = 6421gp

    Now this to me would depend on the GM, are they treating this like a weapon? If so then I would rule that it does not get the x2 multiplier for taking up no space, because you never see that on other weapons because realistically they are taking up your "hand" slot like a normal weapon would when you use them.

    If your GM rules it is just a no space item then give it the x2 price for a total of 12,842gp

    Thoughts on my interpretation of the rules??

    Also if you make it so that it needs a command word to activate the +2 enhancement part you can trade that x2000 cost for a x1800 cost and end up saving yourself 800gp on the x2 price. Bringing the total to 12,042. Only problem with that though is if someone knows the command word they can activate it on you without you wanting too.

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