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Now for some inexplicable reason, I got this strange urge to play some 4th edition D&D. I know, it's so simplistic, and there's tons of things wrong with it, but whatever. This led to me reading the rules for 4e organized play - Living Forgotten Realms. Now I am aware that LFR has its issues, but all organized play does. It's the nature of the beast. Of course, one of the rules intrigued me, so much to the fact that I wouldn't mind seeing it implemented in a fashion in Pathfinder Society.
This one is only slightly controversial: allowing players to generate characters above level 1 for play in Society scenarios. While such things may be viewed as a shortcut to higher level, I think that the benefits, along with the fact that already a majority of scenarios are aimed at lower levels, with a dash of proper restrictions, could counterbalance most abuse. I would suggest only being able to generate characters at levels of the low end of each tier, like at 3rd level, 5th level, and maybe even 7th level as well. Of course you would be penalized for taking such a shortcut, and given a reduced amount of Fame, something like equal to 1.5x the amount of starting XP, and an even more reduced PA to start with, probably equal to half your fame. Now the reason I'd like to see this rule implemented is twofold - first off, any friends who start playing Society could play with you at higher tiers, and you wouldn't have to feel obligated to play a lower level character or run a lower level scenario just so you could include them, if you didn't want to. Second, it would allow the campaign organizers more flexibility in terms of scenarios they can release, so they can release more 5-9 and 7-11 tier scenarios instead of just a small handful of each every season.
Now I know this sounds crazy, but give it some thought before you immediately toss it into the bin of bad ideas, would you? Of course, I'd like to read any comments about this idea, whether they be pros or cons.
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When this rule was added to LFR, it was easily the most controversial rule change under discussion. Lots of ugly, ugly posts.
In addition, PFSOP doesn't really need the rule, as there are the pregens available, along with the rules associated with their use, to allow someone to play at higher tiers with their friends.
The pregens are available at 1st, 4th and 7th levels, and the chronicle earned by using a pregen can be assigned, in one fashion or another, to either a new or existing character.
Venture-Lieutenant, Arizona—Tucson
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I've long wondered if we could implement something like this without the associated pitfalls. If I were building rules for such characters, I'd give them slightly substandard equipment compared to the gear a normal character would have: They would be given a small palette of items to choose from. As an example:
Level 8 Character (Start with up to 1600 gp worth of equipment and
choose three of the following items):
+2 armor
+2 shield or buckler
+2 weapon
+1 weapon (with +1 special quality)
+2 stat boost item
scroll of 4th-level spell
wand of 2nd level spell (14 charges)
ring of xx, yy, or zz
wondrous item XX, YY, or ZZ
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When this rule was added to LFR, it was easily the most controversial rule change under discussion. Lots of ugly, ugly posts.
In addition, PFSOP doesn't really need the rule, as there are the pregens available, along with the rules associated with their use, to allow someone to play at higher tiers with their friends.
The pregens are available at 1st, 4th and 7th levels, and the chronicle earned by using a pregen can be assigned, in one fashion or another, to either a new or existing character.
Just a slight correction. Per the new version of the guide, you can only apply a pre-gen chronicle to a new, first level character.
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Just a slight correction. Per the new version of the guide, you can only apply a pre-gen chronicle to a new, first level character.When this rule was added to LFR, it was easily the most controversial rule change under discussion. Lots of ugly, ugly posts.
In addition, PFSOP doesn't really need the rule, as there are the pregens available, along with the rules associated with their use, to allow someone to play at higher tiers with their friends.
The pregens are available at 1st, 4th and 7th levels, and the chronicle earned by using a pregen can be assigned, in one fashion or another, to either a new or existing character.
Todd,
The guide is a bit confused on that point, but, on page 4, it states:
If you don’t have time to create a new character or simply wish to try out a new character class, you may choose to use one of several level-appropriate pregenerated characters available at paizo.com/pathfindersociety or from your local event coordinator. If you play a 1st-level pregenerated character, you can apply the credit for her first adventure to a newly created character of your very own. If you play a non-1st-level pregenerated character, you can apply the credit to your character as soon as she reaches the level of the pregenerated character played. You may also opt instead to apply the credit from the non-1st-level pregenerated character played to a newly created character with the GP gained reduced to 500 GP (or 250 for characters using the slow advancement track). Equipment listed on the pregenerated character sheet may never be sold.
See the bolded section.
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In addition, PFSOP doesn't really need the rule, as there are the pregens available, along with the rules associated with their use, to allow someone to play at higher tiers with their friends.
The pregens are available at 1st, 4th and 7th levels, and the chronicle earned by using a pregen can be assigned, in one fashion or another, to either a new or existing character.
But if you're bringing in a new player to Society who already has extensive experience in either 3.5 and/or Pathfinder, making them play a pregenerated character just seems rude, especially if they already have a character in mind. This brings us back to the obligation to play/run a lower-level scenario, so that player can play the character they want to play.
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We already had something like this when it came to playing modules. The vast majority of players / GMs / organizers did not like the ability to just create level appropriate characters, and thus it was done away with. It is hard enough for all of us to keep track of our characters as is, adding in the element of random character generation is too confusing and will not add as much as you think it would. We have pregens for playing up, but I would not look any further than that. I would not place much stock in seeing this changed to how you'd like.
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I've long wondered if we could implement something like this without the associated pitfalls. If I were building rules for such characters, I'd give them slightly substandard equipment compared to the gear a normal character would have: They would be given a small palette of items to choose from.
I like this idea, but I'm pretty sure we can avoid the pitfalls using the system already in place they use for module character creation. Give them a fixed amount of gold appropriate for their level, and they cannot spend more than half that on a single purchase. For example, a 7th level character would have 23,500 gp, and couldn't spend more than 11,750 gp on a single item. (Source: PFS Rules for Realm of the Fellnight Queen)
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When these sets of allowances were brought into LFR, it was one of the main reason I stopped playing LFR.
When PFS allowed this for modules, I stopped playing modules.
Playing with a random set of people already has its challenges. Playing with a random set of people in which one or more doesn't know what their character does is even worse. It drags down the game since the person has to figure out what xxx level 5 spell/power does. It could also be hazardous to my PC that I've played 20+ games because some guy is showing up with a 1 shot PC. What does he care if he caused a TPK.
You bring up the example of somebody who has extensive perience in PF. Sadly, that is not the majority case for people for whom this rule would be utilized by. Typically its last minute stragglers that didn't realize that there was a higher level game going on. In LFR, to accomidate these people either the DM or another player had to help "level-up" their PC which delayed the start time of a game. Start and stop time is important in conventions or in gaming stores which give you limited time to play.
So for the record, no.
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I have read what you said, and I see your point of view. I would not prefer this rule. I prefer the way it is currently designed. See other relevant threads and comments to this scattered across the forums for further info from me.I have to say that on THIS issue, I agree with Dan and don't think I would say it better.
+1
+1
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When these sets of allowances were brought into LFR, it was one of the main reason I stopped playing LFR.
When PFS allowed this for modules, I stopped playing modules.
Playing with a random set of people already has its challenges. Playing with a random set of people in which one or more doesn't know what their character does is even worse. It drags down the game since the person has to figure out what xxx level 5 spell/power does. It could also be hazardous to my PC that I've played 20+ games because some guy is showing up with a 1 shot PC. What does he care if he caused a TPK.
You bring up the example of somebody who has extensive perience in PF. Sadly, that is not the majority case for people for whom this rule would be utilized by. Typically its last minute stragglers that didn't realize that there was a higher level game going on. In LFR, to accomidate these people either the DM or another player had to help "level-up" their PC which delayed the start time of a game. Start and stop time is important in conventions or in gaming stores which give you limited time to play.
So for the record, no.
I never said there were no downsides. But I know that if the proper restrictions are applied, those downsides could be effectively counterbalanced. Put in a clause that would highly recommend against this method for newer players, and that is should only be used in situations that the table couldn't be filled otherwise. Make it so they can only generate a single character above level 1st of each tier, and so on.
Of course, most of you are in the same boat the developers are, which is "If you don't change it, you can't make it any worse." I understand that position, which is why I don't expect it to be implemented any time soon. I just wanted the idea to be out there for consideration.
(On a side note, I thought that PFS always allowed you to generate higher level versions of characters for use in sanctioned modules. I guess I missed that change.)
Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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Now for some inexplicable reason, I got this strange urge to play some 4th edition D&D. I know, it's so simplistic, and there's tons of things wrong with it, but whatever. This led to me reading the rules for 4e organized play - Living Forgotten Realms. Now I am aware that LFR has its issues, but all organized play does. It's the nature of the beast. Of course, one of the rules intrigued me, so much to the fact that I wouldn't mind seeing it implemented in a fashion in Pathfinder Society.
This one is only slightly controversial: allowing players to generate characters above level 1 for play in Society scenarios. While such things may be viewed as a shortcut to higher level, I think that the benefits, along with the fact that already a majority of scenarios are aimed at lower levels, with a dash of proper restrictions, could counterbalance most abuse. I would suggest only being able to generate characters at levels of the low end of each tier, like at 3rd level, 5th level, and maybe even 7th level as well. Of course you would be penalized for taking such a shortcut, and given a reduced amount of Fame, something like equal to 1.5x the amount of starting XP, and an even more reduced PA to start with, probably equal to half your fame. Now the reason I'd like to see this rule implemented is twofold - first off, any friends who start playing Society could play with you at higher tiers, and you wouldn't have to feel obligated to play a lower level character or run a lower level scenario just so you could include them, if you didn't want to. Second, it would allow the campaign organizers more flexibility in terms of scenarios they can release, so they can release more 5-9 and 7-11 tier scenarios instead of just a small handful of each every season.
Now I know this sounds crazy, but give it some thought before you immediately toss it into the bin of bad ideas, would you? Of course, I'd like to read any comments about this idea, whether they be pros or cons.
Speaking as someone who coordinates multiple games for multiple systems: please, no.
LFR stagnated in my store for a lot of reasons. This was one of the reasons most often cited by those people who stopped playing. They felt there was no reason to actually play a character through levels if someone could simply come along and create whatever they wanted at the tier they wanted to play. In other words, there was no reward for playing through lower levels, and a lot of players were actually pretty pissed off that they were sharing space at Paragon Tier tables with people who were only just starting.
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That change was made with the release of Guide 4.1. Check out Chapter 6 for the rules that now govern Sanctioned Module play. Thanks.
So, before 4.1, no one could play Academy of Secrets or Tomb of the Iron Medusa for PFS credit, or were those just the exceptions to the rule? I'm not meaning to sound hostile, I just want clarification. If the former is the case, then I accidentally wasted two nights running Tomb of the Iron Medusa for my group, and should collect their chronicles, because they wouldn't be legal.
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If you hate playing low levels, you can always GM a bunch and then use the GM credit to skip the first few levels. It's really a win/win for the community that way.
I was just about to say the same thing...
I use all My GM credits to make a nice spread of different Character levels so I can join any game I want!...
Though, maybe it might not be a Win/Win for the community with some GMs *Not naming names, nop, not gonna, *cough* Kyle *Cough*, see no name dropping...;)
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I have read what you said, and I see your point of view. I would not prefer this rule. I prefer the way it is currently designed. See other relevant threads and comments to this scattered across the forums for further info from me.
+1.
I'm sorry, but no. I find it so hollow to just be able to make a character of any level.
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Registering my vote against the grain here, I would like to see this rule implemented and I trust the PFS heads to do it in a way that is reasonable. It would result in a lot more play of the 7-11 scenarios other than at large conventions (which seems the only place to find them).
When these sets of allowances were brought into LFR, it was one of the main reason I stopped playing LFR.
As long as we're registering personal experiences, when this rule came into LFR, I started playing LFR more, and I'm excited that I finally got to experience some of the higher-level adventures.
This issue seems to appear every few months. There is a vocal
minority that would like to start PCs at higher level, while the
somewhat less vocal majority does not. The majority prevails.
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I would like to see this added to the FAQ or campaign Guide.
This is not a rules question, rather it is a campaign question,
and it is frequently asked. It might save the campaign staff
and venture officers time if the campaign ruling and reasons
behind the ruling were posted somewhere we can reference.
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I dabble with DyingFR and I was happy to not know about that rule. Thanks. :P
If you want to "Play up" play a pregen. It's not an insult to ask someone to play a pregen, it's a gift. The player with the pregen has nothing to lose, everything to gain, and gets to play a higher level than they might otherwise could.
+1 to No.
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
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I dabble with DyingFR and I was happy to not know about that rule. Thanks. :P
If you want to "Play up" play a pregen. It's not an insult to ask someone to play a pregen, it's a gift. The player with the pregen has nothing to lose, everything to gain, and gets to play a higher level than they might otherwise could.
The biggest problem with pregens is that you are very limited in the selection of classes available. I'd like to experiment with several of the newer classes, but a lot of the time many of the interesting abilities don't show up for a few levels. If there was a 4th-level pregen it would let me try out the concept at a single session before running the character through the scenarios necessary to level up a few times.
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The biggest problem with pregens is that you are very limited in the selection of classes available. I'd like to experiment with several of the newer classes, but a lot of the time many of the interesting abilities don't show up for a few levels. If there was a 4th-level pregen it would let me try out the concept at a single session before running the character through the scenarios necessary to level up a few times.
That's not our problem. Like someone said upthread, you shouldn't expect us to put characters we've put time and effort into at real risk because you want to playtest an idea with no risk to yourself. That's what home games are for.
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
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That's not our problem. Like someone said upthread, you shouldn't expect us to put characters we've put time and effort into at real risk because you want to playtest an idea with no risk to yourself. That's what home games are for.
The biggest problem with pregens is that you are very limited in the selection of classes available. I'd like to experiment with several of the newer classes, but a lot of the time many of the interesting abilities don't show up for a few levels. If there was a 4th-level pregen it would let me try out the concept at a single session before running the character through the scenarios necessary to level up a few times.
That's all well and good, except that there aren't too many home games open around here (I know, I've looked). And, in any case, your argument only makes sense if no pregens are allowed at all, which isn't how things are.
I'm saying that if pregens are available, there should be a reasonable selection of classes to choose from, rather than just being limited to the seven options we have today.
I'm quite capable of playing a pregen without being a jerk and endangering the characters of other people at the table. Why is it any worse for me to want to play an Oracle instead of a Cleric, a Cavalier instead of a Samurai, or a Monk instead of a Ninja?
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:shrug:
I don't really have a good answer to that. I'm not sure I like the idea of players using pre-gens to play up, but thems the (current) breaks. It seems to me that the pregens are limited on purpose to be more accessible to players and GMs who have to use them.
Of course you're reasonable enough, but I'm sure you know someone who isn't. And you could be someone else's 'someone'. ;)
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I was thinking about running one of the Pregens as a PC... starting him/her at 1st level and working all the way up, seeing if I could "fit in" to your average party. Right now I'm thinking of doing Kyra, ... how does that sound? I'd be named "Pregen Kyra" or something like that...
Just don't name her Totally Pregen Kyra (TPK) ;)
In general, of course, a cleric is always welcome in a party...
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
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Of course you're reasonable enough, but I'm sure you know someone who isn't. And you could be someone else's 'someone'. ;)
Indeed I could. But I think that has a whole lot more to do with the player than it has to do with the fact that the character is a pregen.
Not 100%, admittedly - the pregens often seem to be quite bit weaker than PCs of a comparable level, and the disparity increases as the level goes up. That's why I only suggested experimenting with the level 4 pregens.
In fact I'm just back from a PFS evening tonight where I played at a table running a tier 7-11 scenario for which I had no level-appropriate character, so I played a level 7 pregen. And just to make it even more interesting, the other four players at the table chose to play up to the 10-11 tier (for which we only just qualified) even knowing that I was running a pregen (and not the one I'd expected to play that evening). This definitely kept me on my toes. AFAIK we didn't come close to a TPK, but there were a couple of times when a slightly different initiative sequence, or one very small difference to a roll, could have taken one of our main DPS dealers down in the middle of an extended fight. Still, we all survived, and I don't think I let anybody down.
I did learn several things, too, about what does (and more importantly what doesn't) work in certain situations.
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yeah, and there's something odd with the HP progression on them. But I think Kyra is pretty sound, and the one I'm most likely to go with (she seems to be the most used Pregen).
In general, of course, a cleric is always welcome in a party...
As I said above...
And, frequently, because not many people make "standard" clerics, since they don't want to run the healbot.
Heh. Saturday, running The Ruby Phoenix Tournament, one of the players is running an 11th level version of his Cleric, instead of the 11th level version of his Paladin (the class he plays the most), he was not as familiar as one would think with the spontaneous casting rules. Mainly because, of course, only two classes are affected by it, and he usually doesn't play either of them.
Took a while to convince him to vary up his spell list from the Cure spells....
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Pathfinder Society Organized Play, and a good living campaign in general, is about your character participating in stories, not having a character with no past and no future goals dropped into a random group of Pathfinders.
+1. I'm going to vote "NO" for all of the reasons mentioned above.
One thing I like about PFS, is that when you have a higher level table you know that everyone knows how to (reasonably) play their PCs.
Also, letting someone create a PC of level 7-11 would make the accomplishment of running through the level 12 retirement arc meaningless. I know it sucks that not many people buy/run those scenarios, but that's also part of what makes it an accomplishment.
I'd like to see a pregen for every core and base class, but I'm sure the organizers are already overloaded with things to do.
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I'd be cool with limited retraining in PFS myself. The ability to pay a set amount of prestige for re-training a feat or a class ability for example would be nice. I definitely don't want to see it wide open though.
...Right now I'm thinking of doing Kyra...
...she seems to be the most used Pregen...
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