Can a Bard continue to Sing and cast Cure Light Wounds


Rules Questions


Beginning performance is a standard action. Maintaining it is free. But you can't be interrupted.

Casting cure light wounds requires Verbal and Somatic components.

So... Could he/she?


No. Once you start casting a spell, you are interrupting the performance. You can do just about anything which is exclusively physical or exclusively mental, so perhaps you could cast a Silent Spell, or one without verbal components, but I would not be surprised if there is a rule preventing even this.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

"A bardic performance cannot be disrupted, but it ends immediately if the bard is killed, paralyzed, stunned, knocked unconscious, or otherwise prevented from taking a free action to maintain it each round."

Does casting a spell prevent you from taking a free action? Nope!


To continue the effects of the performance, take the Lingering Performance feat:

Lingering Performance

The effects of your bardic performance carry on, even if you have stopped performing.

Prerequisite: Bardic performance class feature.

Benefit: The bonuses and penalties from your bardic performance continue for 2 rounds after you cease performing. Any other requirement, such as range or specific conditions, must still be met for the effect to continue. If you begin a new bardic performance during this time, the effects of the previous performance immediately cease.

(From the Advance Player's Guide)

Hope that helps!


Yes, you can. One of the explicit design decisions of PF was to let bards do things while using bardic performance, especially cast spells. The PF bard is not like the 3.5 one at all. You don't even need to sing. You can do whatever you want, just specify if, say, Inspire Courage uses audible or visual components.

Effectively, once you start performing, the magic of the ability continues the performance.

Casting a spell is not interrupting the performance. There are no rules to support this at all. There are even abilities that let combine performance and spellcasting, letting you switch performances when you cast a spell, etc.

Also, bardic magic can't benefit from Silent Spell.


I stand corrected. I guess I have not examined the bard closely since 3.5. Interesting change, and one I certainly can get behind.


So...

A Bard is performing "Rock You Like A Hurricane" and using audible ( singing ) OR playing air guitar or a lute ( visual ) to inspire courage.
He then wants to cast CLW which requires Verbal AND Somatic. It stands to reason that the song he is singing is dependent on his continuing to perform THAT song and continuing to use appropriate gestures and wailing, and the components of cure light wounds would require different moves and or gestures.

So...?

Liberty's Edge

My DM in 3.5 let me stack song effects too. Essentially I had to take a standard action per song effect, but once it was in effect, I could add other effects that I knew via another standard action, while maintaining the original effect via free action. I'm not sure if this was allowed by RAW, or whether it's allowed in PF, but if your DM houserules this in, it makes the bard a very competent buffer.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
solo24601 wrote:

So...

A Bard is performing "Rock You Like A Hurricane" and using audible ( singing ) OR playing air guitar or a lute ( visual ) to inspire courage.
He then wants to cast CLW which requires Verbal AND Somatic. It stands to reason that the song he is singing is dependent on his continuing to perform THAT song and continuing to use appropriate gestures and wailing, and the components of cure light wounds would require different moves and or gestures.

So...?

There's nothing in the rules that says V components interrupt bardic performance.


How do you know that a bard doesn't use music/interpretive dance to cast spells?


Make sure you only sing songs with lyrics in Draconic, and no one will ever know the difference };-)

Liberty's Edge

Making a pitch for Cookie Monster style vocals from a heavy metal themed bard, Mabven? :)

Scarab Sages

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Nor is there anything in the rules that say exactly what the verbal component for any spell is...

perhaps the verbal component for CLW is something akin to:

"My body is burning
It starts to shout
Desire is coming
It breaks out loud
Lust is in cages
Till storm breaks loose
Just have to make it
With someone I choose"

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Mabven the OP healer wrote:
Make sure you only sing songs with lyrics in Draconic, and no one will ever know the difference };-)

Risky. You could get that one music critic dragon in your audience, who decides to correct your horrible rendition of his favorite song by eating you.


Quote:
A bardic performance cannot be disrupted, but it ends immediately if the bard is killed, paralyzed, stunned, knocked unconscious, or otherwise prevented from taking a free action to maintain it each round.

I don't see casting spells on that list.

I do see that when PF was being created, Jason Bulmahn asked about, and then changed, how bardic performance and spells interacted.

I also see that some feats show that this can't be the case.

Bards can use performances and cast spells. That's the intention and the rules.

Quote:

If a bardic performance has audible components, the targets must be able to hear the bard for the performance to have any effect, and such performances are language dependent. A deaf bard has a 20% change to fail when attempting to use a bardic performance with an audible component. If he fails this check, the attempt still counts against his daily limit. Deaf creatures are immune to bardic performances with audible components.

If a bardic performance has a visual component, the targets must have line of sight to the bard for the performance to have any effect. A blind bard has a 50% chance to fail when attempting to use a bardic performance with a visual component. If he fails this check, the attempt still counts against his daily limit. Blind creatures are immune to bardic performances with visual components.

Nothing in the sections dealing with the audible / visual components say anything about spells.

Bardic Performance continues to work as long as you spend a free action every round. It really is as simple as that.

Silver Crusade

Bomanz wrote:

Nor is there anything in the rules that say exactly what the verbal component for any spell is...

perhaps the verbal component for CLW is something akin to:

"My body is burning
It starts to shout
Desire is coming
It breaks out loud
Lust is in cages
Till storm breaks loose
Just have to make it
With someone I choose"

Or here's how I've thought about it in the past. Pick a song where you know the lyrics, and they aren't sung at an insanely fast pace. Now, whatever song it is, I'm sure there are breaks in the lyrics somewhere, even if it's just a half second pause between lines. Try singing the song loudly, then quietly muttering the words "cure light wounds" during one of those pauses in the song lyrics, then go back to singing loudly. Can you do it without breaking the rhythm of the song? I can. Given how well trained bards are at singing and spellcasting, they probably can, too.

Or you can just do an oratory bardic performance instead of a musical one, so that anyone in earshot is still affected, but you can work your spellcasting (and talking to your allies during the fight) to be part of the story you're telling.


Turns out this subject was pretty well addressed here.

Thanks for inspiring me to look it up, seems like I've been underutilizing my own versatility!

EDIT: Nuts, my link didn't work, here's the cut & paste:

http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz2sgk?Bardic-Performance-and-potions#11


It's clear that a bard who is singing, "Rock You Like a Hurricane" is both a master musician AND has exceptional taste. As such he is able to perfectly time the casting of the spell during the guitar solos that are magically riffing through the air.

Sean


Mabven the OP healer wrote:
Make sure you only sing songs with lyrics in Draconic, and no one will ever know the difference };-)

Sing in Druidic. Even less likely someone will catch you. :P


Gluttony wrote:
Mabven the OP healer wrote:
Make sure you only sing songs with lyrics in Draconic, and no one will ever know the difference };-)
Sing in Druidic. Even less likely someone will catch you. :P

Amusingly, you cannot use the sound an instrument creates to inspire courage.

But you can have the visual of you playing the instrument inspire courage.


Spellsong
You can blend the power of your performance and spellcasting.
Prerequisites: Cha 13, bardic performance class ability, able to cast 1st-level spells.
Benefit: You can combine your bardic performance and your spellcasting in two ways.
First, you can conceal the activity of casting a bard spell by masking it in a performance. As a swift action, you may combine your casting time of a spell with a Perform check. Observers must make a Perception or Sense Motive check opposed by your Perform check to realize you are also casting a spell. This uses 1 round of your bardic performance ability, regardless of the spell's casting time.
Second, as a move action, you can use 1 round of bardic performance to maintain a bard spell with a duration of concentration. You can cast another spell in the same round you are using bardic magic to maintain concentration; if you do this, your concentration on the maintained spell ends when you end the bardic performance the spell is part of.


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

Gorbazsc has it.
'A bardic performance cannot be disrupted, but it ends immediately if the bard is killed, paralyzed, stunned, knocked unconscious, or otherwise prevented from taking a free action to maintain it each round."
You should really read this line as saying 'bardic performance does not require concentration'.
In fact, bardic performance per RAW is NOT actually portrayed as something you must CONTINUALLY be performing thru-out all 6 seconds of each round, it's just something that you have to do ONCE every 6 seconds. ...It would be nice if the rules just stated that clearly and directly.


Quandary wrote:

Gorbazsc has it.

[ooc]'A bardic performance cannot be disrupted, but it ends immediately if the bard is killed, paralyzed, stunned, knocked unconscious, or otherwise prevented from taking a free action to maintain it each round."
You should really read this line as saying 'bardic performance does not require concentration'.
In fact, bardic performance per RAW is NOT actually portrayed as something you must CONTINUALLY be performing thru-out all 6 seconds of each round, it's just something that you have to do ONCE every 6 seconds.

Here JJ is saying that it's not even that.

Quote:
This means that when you inspire courage, you're not necessarily doing so by playing the flute or banging drums. It's more likely that you're singing or bragging or taunting or dancing or otherwise just showboating to raise your allies' morale. If you WANT to say that your bardic performance is from a particularly rousing violin solo, that's fine... but once it's started you don't have to keep playing the violin if you want to put the violin down and fight or spellcast or whatever because the actual Perform (strings) skill doesn't ever enter the picture.

You just start the performance and the magic of the ability carries it forth. You do not need to continue to play the instrument or whatever you did.

Wow, I just responded to two of your posts with the same link!


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

Yeah, I was thinking how both of these posts were sort of tangentially related... :-)

Hm, but if there is no playing of instrument/dancing/etc on future rounds, what IS the free action then?
Why is there a need for ongoing line of sight/hearing/etc if you aren't performing N rounds later?
As I read JJ's rationale (last line of his quote), it's the same rationale that people used up-thread,
namely that no check is needed... But as I wrote, no check is needed to DETERMINE EFFECT of the magical performance effect,
but Bardic Performance explicilty says that it's results are the result of using the Performance skill.

Anyways, I FAQ'd that one, so I'll FAQ this one too :-)


To add to the confusion, the Perform skill says this:

Quote:

Special

A bard must have ranks in specific Perform categories to use some of his Bardic Performance abilities.

This leads me to believe that that line in BP refers to those abilities. That is, of course, if I didn't think it was fluff anyways :)


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

Honestly, not needing ranks in perform (for all usages of Bardic Peformance), when the result of a check doesn't matter for the effect, doesn't seem that important to me... Perform is not a Trained-only skill, after all. Honestly, I don't see what usages of B.P. (e.g. the ones that call for a skill check to determine effect of magical performance) DO require Ranks in Perform for that very reason, you should be able to use un-Trained Performance in all of them, you will just have crappier results... So yeah, I'd say that line just adds to the confusion, given it doesn't ACTUALLY seem to have any effect..
/shrug

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Cheapy wrote:

To add to the confusion, the Perform skill says this:

Quote:

Special

A bard must have ranks in specific Perform categories to use some of his Bardic Performance abilities.

This leads me to believe that that line in BP refers to those abilities. That is, of course, if I didn't think it was fluff anyways :)

In 3.5 you actually had to put ranks into Perform to 'unlock' bardic music abilities.

Inspire Competence wrote:
A bard of 3rd level or higher with 6 or more ranks in a Perform skill can use his music or poetics to help an ally succeed at a task. The ally must be within 30 feet and able to see and hear the bard. The bard must also be able to see the ally.

Doesn't require a Perform check, just that the Bard have the minimum ranks in it. So it's legacy text from 3.5. A 3.5 Bard without ranks in Perform could not use Bardic Performance. A PF Bard can.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Cheapy wrote:

To add to the confusion, the Perform skill says this:

Quote:

Special

A bard must have ranks in specific Perform categories to use some of his Bardic Performance abilities.

This leads me to believe that that line in BP refers to those abilities. That is, of course, if I didn't think it was fluff anyways :)

In 3.5 you actually had to put ranks into Perform to 'unlock' bardic music abilities.

Inspire Competence wrote:
A bard of 3rd level or higher with 6 or more ranks in a Perform skill can use his music or poetics to help an ally succeed at a task. The ally must be within 30 feet and able to see and hear the bard. The bard must also be able to see the ally.
Doesn't require a Perform check, just that the Bard have the minimum ranks in it. So it's legacy text from 3.5. A 3.5 Bard without ranks in Perform could not use Bardic Performance. A PF Bard can.

D'oh. That line is about requiring ranks. Countersong and Distraction don't actually require ranks, it just uses the roll. So that explains that line.

I knew a bard didn't need ranks to use bardic performance, but I guess I just always misread the line I quoted.

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