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If a LE party is contracted to bring back children alive, then they will attempt to do just that. Otherwise, they don't get paid. Performance Contracting seems the best way to go.
Lawful Evil gets such a bad rap. As long as you demonstrate your usefulness on a daily basis, the LE guy really has no problem with you. Keep your head down and just stay out of his way, okay?
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Well the mistake is to try and apply real life instances into the equation. US military,spetznaz,IRA, it really doesn't matter, as soon as you get close enough you act. What real life doesn't have is initiative. All you have to do is start the initiative order, see who may need to hold their action until a better time comes up. It's not really that difficult at all.OK, so exactly what spells and abilities will they use now that they are unarmed and within arm's reach (or near enough) to the foes that they could not have used when still fully armed and functional? The bad guys won't let go of the kids (if they ever planned to) until they have the casters all tied up, so the situation is the same as before - save for them being unarmed and close up.
They have a freaking Summoner that can drop a load of summons as a standard action. The Sorcerer doesn't need material components to cast his spells.
A situation only becomes impossible when you make it impossible.
Summon air elementals who have a fly of perfect to rescue the children while everyone else does their thing.
Once you ruled that it was an illusion, you really lost all rights to punish them for the act.
Not necessarily. The failure to commit an evil act due to the children being illusions does not negate the fact that the intent was to kill the children.
It would be the same as firing a gun at someones head, but missing because it was just a reflection in a mirror... The intent behind the action was clear.
I do not suggest retconning the retcon but the sorc willfully tried to murder what in his mind was the children. If it were my call, the alignment of the sorc would shift to evil. The rest of the players get a pass as there was nothing they could do about it.
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Well the mistake is to try and apply real life instances into the equation. US military,spetznaz,IRA, it really doesn't matter, as soon as you get close enough you act. What real life doesn't have is initiative. All you have to do is start the initiative order, see who may need to hold their action until a better time comes up. It's not really that difficult at all.Real life doesn't have a die roll for initiative. :P
To think that seizing the initiative in combat doesn't matter in real life-- would be a display of such overwhelming ignorance, that I'm sure that's not what you mean by "real life doesn't have initiative"-- firefights are often decided by which side got in the first accurate shots. On a larger scale, a lot of military planning and training, and a lot of the effort in actual operations, involves ensuring that your side has the initiative and the other side is stuck with having to react to your attacks before they can try to do anything else.
On the other hand-- yes, if you're speaking of game mechanics and what actions (in game) will work better than others for accomplishing a particular purpose or goal in this situation-- okay, break out the game-mechanics, not the real world examples with weapons the characters don't even have.
However, since much of this thread has been about motivations and morality and the 'whys' behind the actions-- if one likes realistic fiction (and in this case-- even in total fantasy settings, likes reasonable, understandable 'human' motivations and feelings displayed in the story), it's not a mistake to bring up and apply real life instances into the equation as part of that discussion.
Seriously? Did you even have to go there? You have to be taking the piss with me. If you have to actually question what I meant in my response then I don't really know what to tell you. No, real life does not have game mechanic initiative. Unlike real life, I can actually sit there a moment and contemplate what I, or my fellow party members, need to do or can do.
Going in a certain order in initiative can win or lose the battle. Real life has gone out the door in this regard because the discussion is now about what the party could have done to save the children because some people are talking about how impossible a situation it is.
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Once you ruled that it was an illusion, you really lost all rights to punish them for the act.Not necessarily. The failure to commit an evil act due to the children being illusions does not negate the fact that the intent was to kill the children.
It would be the same as firing a gun at someones head, but missing because it was just a reflection in a mirror... The intent behind the action was clear.
I do not suggest retconning the retcon but the sorc willfully tried to murder what in his mind was the children. If it were my call, the alignment of the sorc would shift to evil. The rest of the players get a pass as there was nothing they could do about it.
Well the Paladin isn't off the hook if he doesn't do anything to the sorcerer like demand that he stand trial etc...
Well the Paladin isn't off the hook if he doesn't do anything to the sorcerer like demand that he stand trial etc...
That would depend on if the Sorc sucessfully bluffs the Paladin that he saw through the illusion. (No bluffing necessary if the Pally never asks) If the Pally believes him, then he wont have to turn him in. However, the Paladin will eventually cast a detect evil someday and will find the Sorc is glowing of evil.
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They have a freaking Summoner that can drop a load of summons as a standard action. The Sorcerer doesn't need material components to cast his spells.A situation only becomes impossible when you make it impossible.
Summon air elementals who have a fly of perfect to rescue the children while everyone else does their thing.
Good set of plans-- but something to do while the negotiator buys a little time, not something to do after surrendering and hoping you didn't just get gagged and/or dismembered. Still-- summon air elementals to do an aerial evac, while other people keep the bad guys occupied-- sounds like a possible win to me.
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I feel like they should be punished for their behavior.
What do you think? Do you think this is a good way to set an example of what to do/what not to do? What would you do in this bizzare situation?
It's not evil to blow up illusions.
To summarize what the PCs accomplished: The PCs saved all of the children including the NPCs favorite nephew. They also killed a group of gnolls that previously had been trying to destroy a town. And lastly, they killed a named enemy of the empire.
None of the PCs should be punished. They should be rewarded.
The military characters should be given medals, commendations and a promotion in rank. The non-military paladin, should be offered an equal rank to the other players. If the paladin turns it down, he should be given a civilian-equivalent medal.
Given they level of success, I'd probably go over the top and give the PCs a parade in the capital city and a brief meeting with the emperor. Maybe even a grand banquet in the palace. Though, I wouldn't seat them near the emperor himself. There are other people higher in station than the PCs after all.
The only thing that people in that campaign can really frown upon is the destruction of the bridge, but given their success, I think everyone would just laugh at such a trivial lose. [Given that the bridge was described somewhere as old and wooden and in a remote area, I'm guessing it wasn't on a major trade route.]
Nobody knew they were an illusion because they weren't illusions until after the fireball was thrown. RD changed the children to an illusion. You can't claim everything is okay because they turned out to be an illusion. The only thing the party knew is the children were real. The fireball went in with the intention of killing those children.
So while he might demand and hope you surrender, its a stalemate. So roleplaying is what was needed. Not fragging the kids.
I think we all agree on that.
Oh yes. My response in this situation would be to wave everyone back from attacking and opening negotiations to buy time. However, the party are not thinking this way, and one player is notorious - from what SD says - for doing random stuff.
OK, so exactly what spells and abilities will they use now that they are unarmed and within arm's reach (or near enough) to the foes that they could not have used when still fully armed and functional? The bad guys won't let go of the kids (if they ever planned to) until they have the casters all tied up, so the situation is the same as before - save for them being unarmed and close up.They have a freaking Summoner that can drop a load of summons as a standard action. The Sorcerer doesn't need material components to cast his spells.
A situation only becomes impossible when you make it impossible.
Summon air elementals who have a fly of perfect to rescue the children while everyone else does their thing.
Yes, but you missed the point: why does he have to surrender in order to do this? He can do it from flying over the chasm. You were trying to justify why the party would use surrender as a viable tactic, and so far there is no justification I can see, because there is nothing to be gained by doing so.
I take it, RD, that you expected the PCs to surrender and had contingencies for such? I can appreciate that. Not every encounter is supposed to be a winnable frontal assault. It doesn't really sound like diplomacy or intimidation was going to have any real effect on the outcome, but maybe that's incorrect.
I was fully prepared for them to not surrender. Didn't really expect them to, to be honest.
I wasn't at all prepared for them to murder the children (proven by my having panicked and retconed the situation).
RD: If it's not too much trouble, would you post the stats on the PC's along with spell-lists etc..?
I bet I could find a way to save the kids without fireballing them to death.
Here's a link to our site. Scroll down a bit and you will find the download links for the character sheet PDFs.
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So while he might demand and hope you surrender, its a stalemate. So roleplaying is what was needed. Not fragging the kids.
I think we all agree on that.
Oh yes. My response in this situation would be to wave everyone back from attacking and opening negotiations to buy time. However, the party are not thinking this way, and one player is notorious - from what SD says - for doing random stuff.
Yes, but you missed the point: why does he have to surrender in order to do this? He can do it from flying over the chasm. You were trying to justify why the party would use surrender as a viable tactic, and so far there is no justification I can see, because there is nothing to be gained by doing so.OK, so exactly what spells and abilities will they use now that they are unarmed and within arm's reach (or near enough) to the foes that they could not have used when still fully armed and functional? The bad guys won't let go of the kids (if they ever planned to) until they have the casters all tied up, so the situation is the same as before - save for them being unarmed and close up.They have a freaking Summoner that can drop a load of summons as a standard action. The Sorcerer doesn't need material components to cast his spells.
A situation only becomes impossible when you make it impossible.
Summon air elementals who have a fly of perfect to rescue the children while everyone else does their thing.
Because when you surrender it can get you closer.
Let's say there is 120ft between your party and the enemies. You throw your hands up in a surrender and you toss your weapons down on the ground. Melee people are not helpless without their gear, walk towards the enemies with your hands in the air. As soon as you get close enough the DM(RD) could ask the group to roll a Bluff to see if they can fake their surrender and if they succeed then they can get a surprise on the enemies, be closer to them, all get to act before the enemies and still have a chance to win initiative as well.
It's not rocket science, all it takes is a little thinking and the task can be overcome.
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So while he might demand and hope you surrender, its a stalemate. So roleplaying is what was needed. Not fragging the kids.
I think we all agree on that.
Oh yes. My response in this situation would be to wave everyone back from attacking and opening negotiations to buy time. However, the party are not thinking this way, and one player is notorious - from what SD says - for doing random stuff.
Yes, but you missed the point: why does he have to surrender in order to do this? He can do it from flying over the chasm. You were trying to justify why the party would use surrender as a viable tactic, and so far there is no justification I can see, because there is nothing to be gained by doing so.OK, so exactly what spells and abilities will they use now that they are unarmed and within arm's reach (or near enough) to the foes that they could not have used when still fully armed and functional? The bad guys won't let go of the kids (if they ever planned to) until they have the casters all tied up, so the situation is the same as before - save for them being unarmed and close up.They have a freaking Summoner that can drop a load of summons as a standard action. The Sorcerer doesn't need material components to cast his spells.
A situation only becomes impossible when you make it impossible.
Summon air elementals who have a fly of perfect to rescue the children while everyone else does their thing.
Unless you can read my mind, if I tell you I am going to surrender you don't know if I mean it or not.
Because when you surrender it can get you closer.
Let's say there is 120ft between your party and the enemies. You throw your hands up in a surrender and you toss your weapons down on the ground. Melee people are not helpless without their gear, walk towards the enemies with your hands in the air. As soon as you get close enough the DM(RD) could ask the group to roll a Bluff to see if they can fake their surrender and if they succeed then they can get a surprise on the enemies, be...
When you negotiate you can get closer. Close range at 9th level is 45 feet, getting that close in order to negotiate is hardly beyond the pale.
It's not evil to blow up illusions.
To summarize what the PCs accomplished: The PCs saved all of the children including the NPCs favorite nephew. They also killed a group of gnolls that previously had been trying to destroy a town. And lastly, they killed a named enemy of the empire.
None of the PCs should be punished. They should be rewarded.
The military characters should be given medals, commendations and a promotion in rank. The non-military paladin, should be offered an equal rank to the other players. If the paladin turns it down, he should be given a civilian-equivalent medal.
Given they level of success, I'd probably go over the top and give the PCs a parade in the capital city and a brief meeting with the emperor. Maybe even a grand banquet in the palace. Though, I wouldn't seat them near the emperor himself. There are other people higher in station than the PCs after all.
The only thing that people in that campaign can really frown upon is the destruction of the bridge, but given their success, I think everyone would just laugh at such a trivial lose. [Given that the bridge was described somewhere as old and wooden and in a remote area, I'm guessing it wasn't on a major trade route.
You're confusing intent vs result. The intent of the Sorc was to murder the children. The Sorc intended to commit an evil act and should be punished accordingly by an alignment shift to evil.
-Everything else can be reasonably explained away. The Paladin can trust that the sorc new they were illusions.
The rest of your post I completely agree with. In game terms, they are hero's who managed to save the children and kill the bad guys. They should be rewarded as such for thier efforts. That still doesn't erase the evil intent that was performed by the Sorc.
It's like robbing a bank only to find out later in your hideout that the money is fake. You still commited bank-robbery, you just didnt get any money for it.
I wouldn't call it punishment to change alignment unless alignment causes a class function to stop working (ex: paladin)... if you do evil things you slide toward an evil alignment... if you didn't want to be considered evil you shouldn't have done evil things.
The paladin should have spoken up immediately if he thought one of his traveling companions was going to even potentially harm innocents ("Hey! Turn that spell off! It is crushing those children!"). Once the 2nd black tentacles hit he should have done everything in his power to save the kids because he never made a will save to disbelieve the illusion. Until it is shown those aren't real kids he has a divine responsibility to protect the innocent. If he disregards that responsibility, he needs to atone for that lack of action alone, and until he does he shouldn't have any divine powers.
True, the way the sorc plays, he may not consider an evil shift a punishment. However, it would add an interesting dynamic since he is traveling with a Paladin.
From the perspective of the Paladin, the first spell was counterspelled, so even if he had known what spell it was via spellcraft check, he wouldnt have known he was targeting the children with the spell. The second spell hit the kids, and the BBEG said something to the effect of "Curses! you've seen through my illusion!" Which may have been alarming to the Paladin right away once he saw the kids being targeted, but he would have realized there was no harm being done here.
He didn't really have a chance to intervene in the way this played out before understanding that these were indeed ilusions.
*edit for clarity
Summoner. Not sorcerer. Black tentacles. Not fireball. Put a stop to the confusion.
(This message brought to you by the Office of Eschewing Obfuscation.)
Summoner. Not sorcerer. Black tentacles. Not fireball. Put a stop to the confusion.
(This message brought to you by the Office of Eschewing Obfuscation.)
My bad, summoner.. :)
RD, has there been any further developments in this story since that encounter?
RD, has there been any further developments in this story since that encounter?
I've spoken with the fighter player, and intend to talk to both the summoner and paladin player as well, but scheduling conflicts have so far prevented it.
RD, has there been any further developments in this story since that encounter?I've spoken with the fighter player, and intend to talk to both the summoner and paladin player as well, but scheduling conflicts have so far prevented it.
Do you know how you're going to proceed in this instance? Whats your plan?
I didn't read the whole thread, so my apologies if its already been said.
You shouldn't have ret-conned the children away. They chose to kill the children, they succeeded. Now they can say they were too late and try to bluff the kingdom, and you can sprinkle in getting hateful stares from parents of the dead kids as they go to shops/bars etc. Anyone good who participated I would immediately shift neutral, and they can work on re-learning what good is. Those who didn't directly attack the kids, wouldn't get an alignment shift, but it would be a point towards one in the future.
Since you did ret-con it. Play it out with the town suspicious, and in the future, let them make their evil decisions, and change their alignments to match their actions. Maybe let them know that if the party gets more than 50% evil without actively working to redeem themselves, the campaign will just end with a narration of the evil party becoming the next big threat. (Maybe even the start of the next game, to go back and take out this evil party.)
I never said anyone was following them.
The surviving children are the only witnesses to their own murder.
Why would the town be suspicious?
Yep, no reason for the town to be suspicious.. The hero's were sent out to find the children, and now they are returning with the children. Job well done from the point of the townsfolk.
-If it were me, and I wanted to "punish" the players for their actions, I might make these children possesed, with the plan of infiltrating the town for some dasterdly purpose. Introduce new BBEG whom previous BBEG was working for in your plotline.
Of course, I wouldn't call that punishment, just story development.
I definitely would not have taken that route. I would have let the players massacre the children, and when they arrived back at town there would be officials there to arrest them. It would be easy for someone to have been scrying on their efforts, or for some passing woodsman to have seen them commit the atrocity. I also would have shifted alignments of the players which could definitely have caused issues with their deities, especially for any cleric in the party.
I think they can and should face the consequences of their actions, this is an RPG after all, not a board game so any whining about you "not being their Daddy" is just that, whining. the whole point is to pseudo-replicate a real world wherein actions have consequences and the where displeasing the gods have very real, visible, and directly attributable effects. think about how Hera reactes to Hercules...
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What do you think?
I like it.
Do you think this is a good way to set an example of what to do/what not to do?
I don't expect my players to do anything, so I don't set examples on how to play.
What would you do in this bizzare situation?
I would laugh when all the children died. I'd take the opportunity to describe some of their deaths in detail. Maybe one would be hanging on a ledge screaming "Help!...Why won't you help?" before he loses his grip and shouts F bombs at the party while falling to his death.
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I never said anyone was following them.
The surviving children are the only witnesses to their own murder.
Since you retconned them into being illusions the children would be obviously able to see that the illusion of them is an illusion then what they saw is that the heroes were not fooled by the bad devil man's tricks and blasted him into oblivion.
Why would the town be suspicious?
Because the kids will talk. Maybe it takes a few weeks. But their parents will probably believe them.
"It looked like we were on a bridge, but we were actually in the woods. Then all of a sudden the whole bridge was exploding in fire and stuff, like they didn't even care about us! Only <fighter name> tried to find us."
Or you can even just have the few kids who are suspicious give them dirty looks/feel bad about having attempted to manslaughter them. And next time, don't retcon the kids out of harms way, let them deal with doing the "wrong" thing.
Note that the bridge did not 'explode in fire'. Also, how could the kids see what was going on?
The kids were more or less just behind the nearby tree line. Though there were some visibility issues in the beginning (the kids had been taken from their homes in the night and the bridge was longer than peoples' darkvision), the moment the fighter came onto the scene (in round 1) the area lit up quite nicely thanks to his everburning torch (which he left on the middle of the bridge at one point).
It is perfectly reasonable to believe that at least a handful of kids could clearly see (and comprehend) what was going on around them under those conditions.
You would fit in just fine with the rest of my players Surbrus.
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Also, how could the kids see what was going on?Because they have the ability to see through the fourth wall, and want to screw over the players.
Seriously, this talk about how the children will rat them out is just a weakly thought out "FU" to the players.
Besides, in the party's opinion the [illusions of kids] were as good as dead... so they might as well maximize the damage done to the baddies by ignoring the fact that the kids are sitting right in the middle of the optimum position for laying down that Black Tentacle. If they were real kids, then the gnolls probably would have carried out their readied actions to kill them should the party have made a move... assuming that they were actually physically threatening to kill the hostages.
That's such a cop out. You can play the "DM's an A-Hole" card everytime you don't get your way.
There is nothing wrong with the children knowing what went on.
The fact of the matter is the players f-ed up and they are trying to use any means necessary to get themselves out of it. They did know from Adam that the kids were an illusion. Screaming the DM's being a dick when you screw up shows which one is the real "D".
Honestly, your game just seems to have a lot of player and GM burnout, and I have not bore witness to a game where the GM goes around punishing the characters for actions they felt were unavoidable that has actually continued. I guess you might as well have fun with the end of your campaign.