Inquisitor, Infiltrator and Heresy Inquisition Bluff bonus


Rules Questions


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Hi folks,

So the question is pretty simple, yet unclear to me.

From heresy inquisition:
Righteous Infiltration (Ex): You use your Wisdom modifier instead of your Charisma modifier when making Bluff and Intimidate checks.

From Infiltrator Archetype:
Guileful Lore (Ex)
At 1st level, the infiltrator’s will is bent toward subterfuge and deception. She adds her Wisdom modifier on Bluff and Diplomacy skill checks in addition to the normal ability score modifiers.

So I'm just curious to know if everyone sees it the same way I do.

Would it allow the inquisitor to add TWICE his WISDOM Modifier to all his bluff checks?

Amuny,


Yep.


Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Ditto Conversion, except it's better.

Charm of Wisdom (Ex): You use your Wisdom modifier instead of your Charisma modifier when making Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate checks.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

I love the Inquisitor.


Yeah I also saw Conversion Inquisition but I definitly prefer Heresy assuming the other powers. Conversion just add diplomacy to the list, but you have a bunch of "roll twice take best" with Heresy, and a curse that is efficient on everything instead of a dominate PERSON ^^

Well thanks for he fast&sweet answers ;)

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Done right, an Inquisitor can have his wisdom do all the heavy lifting on just about everything.


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Archetypes:

-Heretic: Wisdom to Bluff and Stealth in addition to normal ability score modifiers

-Infiltrator: Wisdom to Bluff and Diplomacy in addition to normal ability score modifiers.

You cannot stack those archetypes.

Inquisitions:

-Heresy: Wisdom INSTEAD of Charisma for Bluff and Intimidate.

-Conversion: Wisdom INSTEAD of Charisma for Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate.

Then let's not forget the Inquisitor itself.

-Cunning Initiative: Wisdom to Initiative as well as Dexterity. (Safe for use with both archetypes)

-Stern Gaze: 1/2 inquisitor level as a morale bonus to Intimidate and Sense Motive. (Replaced by Infiltrator. Just thought I'd share it since it gives a bonus to Intimidate)

Mix and match as you will. I tend to lean more towards a theme... The Heretical Heretic hunter (Heretic arch/Heresy inq), or the Converting Infiltrator (Infiltrator arch/Conversion inq)...

Inquisitors do love their Wis.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

The guided weapon property and wisdom of the flesh trait are an Inquisitor's friend.

Shadow Lodge

Would these really stack? It's the same type of bonus afterall - the wisdom modifier. I thought only dodge, circumstance and racial boni stacked. I guess one could argue that a modifier is not a bonus, if they were so inclined though.

EDIT: Stop the presses: ""A positive modifier is called a bonus, and a negative modifier is called a penalty." - Core Rulebook, page 16." Right, so it's not legit.

The combination also hinges on the "in addition" clause that, to me, feels to refer to the original talky stat - Charisma. Paizo employs a lot of writers and this might be one of those occasions where two developers never saw each other's contributions before it went to printers and it passed under the editor's radar.

Dark Archive

*casts Animate Dead*

Muser wrote:
Stop the presses: ""A positive modifier is called a bonus, and a negative modifier is called a penalty." - Core Rulebook, page 16." Right, so it's not legit.

Sounded clear to me when I recently had the same interrogation about the Infiltrator archetype and Conversion inquisition.

Yet still no official answer (not even for Pathfinder society): maybe am I missing something?

I also found an exception in an alchemist archetype (Mindchemist) that gives an intelligence bonus twice. So it brings me back to the question of having two wisdom bonus...

Perfect Recall
At 2nd level, a mindchemist has honed his memory. When making a Knowledge check, he may add his Intelligence bonus on the check a second time. Thus, a mindchemist with 5 ranks in Knowledge (history) and a +2 Intelligence bonus has a total skill bonus of +9 (5 + 2 + 2) using this ability. The mindchemist can also use this ability when making an Intelligence check to remember something.
This ability replaces poison use.

I *really* like the Infiltrator / Conversion or Heresy mix and it would **** me off to see a player in a Pathfinder Society come up with this build when I gave up on it ;-). Any official word or PF society experience to confirm it's not legit?


I've always played it as though they stack. The wording suggest one replaces and one adds to whatever the primary score is. No one questioned me when I brought it to PFS, if thats any indication. Was great for helping create a flavor of the vigilant and trustworthy knight. With a bluff above 30 you just have to trust them!(kidding btw).

The most abusable aspect of it all though is that all these wisdom to replace blah are frontloaded. Druids or Clerics who stack wisdom can become much more sad at the cost of putting spell progression at the same rate as spontaneous casters. Its just a few skillpoints though for the most part, and skillchecks aren't the hardest to meet. Inquisitors themselves are giving up other features they have and not as likely to have a sky high wisdom score.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

It stacks.

Nothing suggests otherwise.


I always read it as they stack.

The archetype uses the phrase "in addition to the normal ability score modifiers" not "in addition to the WIS bonus". So the archetype allows you to add your WIS bonus to whatever youre already using for those skills....if that happens to already be WIS then all the better for you.


I also believe they stack, but it took some time to convince my gm of this.

Liberty's Edge

blackbloodtroll wrote:

It stacks.

Nothing suggests otherwise.

It does not stack.

And JJ says it ;-)

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
The black raven wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:

It stacks.

Nothing suggests otherwise.

It does not stack.

And JJ says it ;-)

The Creative Director James Jacobs goes out of his way to note, he is not a rules guy.

Asks to not be quoted as a rules source, and does so often.

He notes how he would run things in his own game, and that's it.

Are you doing what he asked so many, not to do?

Liberty's Edge

blackbloodtroll wrote:
The black raven wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:

It stacks.

Nothing suggests otherwise.

It does not stack.

And JJ says it ;-)

The Creative Director James Jacobs goes out of his way to note, he is not a rules guy.

Asks to not be quoted as a rules source, and does so often.

He notes how he would run things in his own game, and that's it.

Are you doing what he asked so many, not to do?

I just knew you were going to say that ;-)

My post was to counter your argument of "nothing suggests otherwise". The words of the Creative Director of Paizo are indeed more than "nothing" IMO.

Note also that in this specific case of stacking the same bonus twice, he very much DID NOT say all of the above (ie "he is not a rules guy", "Asks to not be quoted as a rules source", "He notes how he would run things in his own game, and that's it.").

All of these he did mention in other threads on other topics, but IIRC not about this specific case.

Also I do not know that we got an answer to this from ANY OTHER Paizo staff, so I will use what we get from the Creative Director until one of the "rules sources" clarifies it once and for all :-)

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Well, I was not trying to seem, accusatory.

Quoting JJ, as a rules source, is a pet peeve of mine, and his, and confuses other posters.

My line was to say, they stack, and that nothing RAW, suggests otherwise.

Also, as no Dev involved in the rules system has commented, nothing suggests RAI would disallow these to stack.

If I say it never rains sulfuric acid, and your response is a "HA! It does so on Venus!", that doesn't mean you're clever.

What it does make you, I will let you figure out on your own.

Grand Lodge

Sorry to once again drag this poor old thread into the light, but I really need an official call on this issue because I want to play this in my weekly game but my DM doesn't believe it's valid.

Pretty much the only way to convince him it is valid is a call from one of the devs. Any chance we can get a ruling on this?


The FAQ on secondary sources shot this down.
Until that FAQ it worked, now it does not work anymore.

But that FAQ was stupid anyways because now taking some feats makes you worse, not better.

FAQ wrote:

Do ability modifiers from the same ability stack? For instance, can you add the same ability bonus on the same roll twice using two different effects that each add that same ability modifier?

No. An ability bonus, such as "Strength bonus", is considered to be the same source for the purpose of bonuses from the same source not stacking. However, you can still add, for instance “a deflection bonus equal to your Charisma modifier” and your Charisma modifier. For this purpose, however, the paladin's untyped "bonus equal to her Charisma bonus (if any) on all saving throws" from divine grace is considered to be the same as "Charisma bonus (if any)", and the same would be true for any other untyped "bonus equal to her [ability score] bonus" constructions.


This no longer works. FAQ that says so. Short answer, you can't add "Wisdom" to anything twice unless it explicitly tells you that (e.g. add twice your wisdom) or one of them is a typed bonus (like competence) equal to wisdom.


I thought its simple.
If I replace a brick I put another brick in that place.
If I add a brick I put it on top.
Modifiers of the same source do not stack. But it is not the same source. The one source is the regular attribute connected to a skill, the other is a bonus granted by a domain.


The source of both is "Wisdom". Read the FAQ.

Do ability modifiers from the same ability stack? For instance, can you add the same ability bonus on the same roll twice using two different effects that each add that same ability modifier? wrote:
No. An ability bonus, such as "Strength bonus", is considered to be the same source for the purpose of bonuses from the same source not stacking. However, you can still add, for instance “a deflection bonus equal to your Charisma modifier” and your Charisma modifier. For this purpose, however, the paladin's untyped "bonus equal to her Charisma bonus (if any) on all saving throws" from divine grace is considered to be the same as "Charisma bonus (if any)", and the same would be true for any other untyped "bonus equal to her [ability score] bonus" constructions.


Bob Bob Bob wrote:
The source of both is "Wisdom". Read the FAQ.
Do ability modifiers from the same ability stack? For instance, can you add the same ability bonus on the same roll twice using two different effects that each add that same ability modifier? wrote:
No. An ability bonus, such as "Strength bonus", is considered to be the same source for the purpose of bonuses from the same source not stacking. However, you can still add, for instance “a deflection bonus equal to your Charisma modifier” and your Charisma modifier. For this purpose, however, the paladin's untyped "bonus equal to her Charisma bonus (if any) on all saving throws" from divine grace is considered to be the same as "Charisma bonus (if any)", and the same would be true for any other untyped "bonus equal to her [ability score] bonus" constructions.

Bob, Bob, Bob,

You seem convinced of your position beyond any doubt, but to me it appears that your position is merely one way to interpret the FAQ and I would interpret it differently. Do you have additional authority beyond the FAQ that you could cite?

Allow me to explain why I would argue that the FAQ you cite does not apply to this specific situation (Charm of Wisdom [Conversion Inquisition] Wis bonus to Bluff and Diplomacy stacking with Guileful Lore [Infiltrator Archetype] Wis bonus to Bluff, Diplomacy and Intimidate):

Read the descriptions of Guileful Lore and Monster Lore (which Guileful Lore replaces via the Infiltrator Archetype ability.

Guileful Lore (Ex): At 1st level, the infiltrator’s will is bent toward subterfuge and deception. She adds her Wisdom modifier on Bluff and Diplomacy skill checks in addition to the normal ability score modifiers. This ability replaces monster lore.

Monster Lore (Ex): The inquisitor adds her Wisdom modifier on Knowledge skill checks in addition to her Intelligence modifier, when making skill checks to identify the abilities and weaknesses of creatures.

Notice that Monster Lore specifically states that Wisdom is used in addition to Intelligence. However, Guileful Lore does not specifically state that Wisdom is used in addition to Charisma, but instead it states that Wis is used in addition to "the normal ability score modifiers." I would argue that this is intentionally a-specific to the ability score source with the intention of leaving it flexible.

Until or unless Paizo correctly the description of Guileful Lore to specifically state "Charisma modifier" or puts out an FAQ on this specific scenario, I would allow this. And if I did not allow a player to stack Guileful Lore and Charm of Wisdom, I would at least give them back Monster Lore.

Sidenote: As of this post, HeroLab, which is generally quite accurate with its Pathfinder character build rules, allows the stacking in this specific situation. I grant that it could be an oversight. But for now at least it is evidence that supports my interpretation.


Hero Lab is not a rules source the FAQ is. There really isn't anyother way to read the FAQ. For all intents and purposes an untyped ability bonus now becomes typed as that ability score.
You cannot add 'wisdom +4' and 'wisdom +4' to a skill check anymore than you can add 'enhancement+4' and 'enhancement+4' to an ability.

If an ability types the bonus, such as 'add a deflection bonus equal to your charisma bonus' then the above does not apply of course.


dragonhunterq wrote:

Hero Lab is not a rules source the FAQ is. There really isn't anyother way to read the FAQ. For all intents and purposes an untyped ability bonus now becomes typed as that ability score.

You cannot add 'wisdom +4' and 'wisdom +4' to a skill check anymore than you can add 'enhancement+4' and 'enhancement+4' to an ability.

If an ability types the bonus, such as 'add a deflection bonus equal to your charisma bonus' then the above does not apply of course.

Well, in my defense I was looking for nuance in the way these specific abilities were written so that the FAQ might not apply, but you are correct that I did say 'Hero Lab' so I must lose. lol


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

The way I look at it I'm not adding my my Wisdom modifier twice but replacing my Charisma modifier and then adding my Wisdom on top of it. The replacing of Charisma with Wisdom is not a "bonus" at all, it's a substitution.
If the Conversion/Heresy inquisitions said "add your Wisdom modifier" then it wouldn't be legal, but it doesn't, it says "use your Wisdom modifier instead of your Charisma modifier"


blackbloodtroll wrote:
Done right, an Inquisitor can have his wisdom do all the heavy lifting on just about everything.

Sadly, he miss channeling for guided hand feat.

That WOULD be amazing if possible


Is it worth the while, to "waste" the domain for a weak one like swamp for channeling OR dip one into cleric for 2 domains and channel , for the guided hand path?

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