At 17th, that just isn't very useful unless your GM is being stingy with inherent mods.What's your bare minimum standard for "not being stingy"?
Bare minimum? A GM actively trying to prevent you and your party from getting the inherent modifiers. Probably that disallows multiple method of obtaining them.
Disallowing paid spellcasters, planar bindings, simulacrums, to avoid PCs getting the +2.5 to their mods; just because they don't want them to have the mods (because by 13th+ level, +2.5 is not a major balance concern, because it makes up a far smaller % of a character's total effectiveness than it does at low levels, so that's no excuse).
EDIT: Inherent modifiers are simply part of the game. They will typically come into play between 13th and 20th level. They are capped at +5, so you can't really cheese your way to victory through inherent modifiers (so getting more wishes is useless). It's just a natural part of the game, and probably was intended to keep the PCs viable compared to high level foes who have more and more impressive statistics.
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So in other words giving out anything other than the max qualifies as "stingy" then. High level foes require better stats than the heroes. After all it generally comes down to a 4-6 on one dogpile at the end.
Actively trying to prevent PCs from gaining it, is what I was saying was Stingy. Preventing them from obtaining inherent modifiers just because the GM holds some sort of misguided sense of balance issues, where there is not a balance issue to be had.
Also, I disagree fully. It only comes down to a 4-6 on one dogpile if the GM builds boring encounters. There are few to no NPCs that are intended to be able to take on an entire party with a reasonable expectancy of survival in a direct confrontation. However, at higher levels, creatures have extremely impressive stats, attack routines, and special abilities. For example, virtually all demons can greater teleport at will, which allows them to very, very easily do hit and run tactics.
The few individual monsters who can actually take on a party do so because they have the means to prepare, and many of them have powerful summons. For example, solars are excessively powerful and could take on an entire party, but they can also gate more solars, chain-spam summon monster VII to call in celestial Tyrannosaurs to swallow PCs and their minions whole, etc, etc, etc, etc.
High level combat is NOT like low level combat. It is a tactical game of dropping nukes and bio-weapons on your enemies while shielding yourself with your star-wars program and hazmat teams. A high level encounter where enemies are using their full resources is a terrifying ordeal. A 20th level party vs a Solar for example is akin to the freakin' Ragnarok on the scale of extreme terror that it would incite in normal humans, as on this scale you are literally hurling meteors at people, calling upon earth shattering storms, and cracking the land and sundering buildings, while the legions of heaven and hell descend or crawl up from their realms to join the battle.
For example...
CR 20 encounter = 307,200 XP
Succubus x 4 (CR 7) = 12,800 XP
Shadow Demon x 4 (CR 7) = 12,800 XP
Nabasu x 6 (CR 8) = 28,800 XP
Glabrezu x 2 (CR 13) = 51,200 XP
Marilith x 1 (CR 17) = 102,400 XP
Vrock x 15 (CR 9) = 96,000 XP
Dretch x 5 (CR 2) = 3,000 XP
This is a demon horde led by a Marilith, who commands their fiendish legions. The entire horde can greater teleport at will, and works together. Most of them can summon more demons as spell-like abilities. Here is a quick rundown of the types of things these demons might do.
Marilith uses telekinesis at range to hurl objects or even other demons at the party, or uses it to grapple an enemy magician. If she sees an opening, she will get in and attack an opponent with her tail and constrict them. Anyone who is constricted must make a DC 25 fortitude save or fall unconscious for 1d8 rounds. At this point she moves on to the next foe, as one of the succubi coup de grace the unconscious character with a caster level 12 vampiric touch, likely killing the victim and buffing the succubus to hell and back with temporary HP. Blade barrier controls the battlefield and makes moving around a pain for those without teleportation.
The Nebasu wander around spamming enervation at targets, especially those in heavy armor, inflicting 1d4 negative levels with each ray that hits, no save. There are 6 of them, so that's a potential for 6-24 negative levels. Every negative level inflicts a -1 penalty to all saving throws. When they are out of rays, they will spam telekinesis to hurl objects at the party, or force DC 19 will saves or be hurled about like a rag doll.
The shadow demons seep through the floor and attack anyone who is on land using their blind-fight feat to ignore the miss %, and since they have cover you can't make AoOs against them, and retaliating against them is something of a pain, since you can't ready a full-attack against them. Your best bet is to take to the air. Each shadow demon of course attempts to summon another shadow demon with a 50% success rate, so 4 demons becomes 6 more than likely. They too can also stand back and spam telekinesis.
The succubi screech about the battlefield charm-bombing enemies and taking pot-shots at downed foes with vampiric touch when they're down. Of course, they all attempt to summon Babau demons with a 50% chance, so that adds another 2 acid-coated demons into the mix as cannon fodder. They also will not hesitate to dominate animal companions, mounts, and similar creatures. They're not difficult to kill, but they will generally spread out and distract the party, and can turn ethereal at-will, allowing them very good tactics. If desired, they can fly around and drop nets on the party to entangle them, as they can comfortably carry plenty of them and still greater teleport around the field.
The vrocks all begin a dance of ruin, spreading out into groups of 4 vrocks for maximum effectiveness. Every 3rd round, each group unleashes a 20d6 blast of lightning in a 100 ft. radius, which all of the demons are immune to. So if you don't break up or crowd control the vrocks, you will be eating up to 4 instances of 20d6 electricity damage, which is an average of 280 damage anywhere the radius's overlap. Alternatively, they can keep flying around the party screeching hellishly, forcing DC 21 saves vs stun for 1 round. Becoming stunned can easily mean death in this battle, and you can get hit by up to 15 of these at once, making saving a harry business. That's not counting the auto-damaging spores they can shake every 3 rounds.
The Glabrezu play hell with the party's counters. They possess at-will mirror image, making taking them out difficult, and they can function as spotters for the team, utilizing their constant true-seeing ability. Each can cast power word stun to screw over any foe with 150 HP or less. All can cast reverse gravity and dispel magic, and won't hesitate to shut down the magic items of the party, since a CL 16 dispel magic can shut down the vast majority of magic items easily. Finally they can drop unholy blight every round without fail, dealing 8d8 damage to all good creatures in an area and forcing saves vs nausea. If pushed into combat, they have a 15 ft. reach and decent natural attacks.
Dretch simply skulk about the battlefield dropping stinking clouds into the fray. All the demons are immune to the cloud, but it forces a 5% chance per round to become nauseated for 1d4 rounds, potentially causing some PCs to lose several rounds worth of actions. They also use it because the 20% concealment it provides to people inside the cloud completely negates sneak attack, and thus ruins any chance a rogue has to sneak attack their bosses. With five of them, they should also be able to summon an additional dretch, allowing up to 5-6 stinking clouds throughout the battle.
All of the above is assuming, of course, that none of them are using any of their treasures themselves (such as the marilith using any superior weapons, or clad in armor, or any of them wearing rings or cloaks or anything cool like that, which may indeed be part of their treasure and thus added to their statblock by the GM).
Can the Party Succeed?
Darn right they can! But only by being the baddest mo-fo's on the street, yo! That might entail bustin' time stop followed by summon monster VII and higher a few times to even the odds, while the druid summons elementals and the cleric attempts to spam banishment or gates in a solar and begs for help. The sorcerer TK-chucks the barbarian with a life-drinker at the Marilith, and everyone activates their free-action death ward armors to prevent being enervation spammed down, while the Fighter shoots arrows at the flying critters with his seeking bow, while the bard provides buffs for the entire party + summoned monsters + animal companions + cohorts, while he aids the fighter in shooting stuff down with his own composite seeking bow. Fortunately everyone is wearing continual protection from evil items to help ward against the succubi attacks, but they need to either get rid of the succubi quick or remove any demons that can dispel their items, because when the shields are down the charms are many!
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I bet I am going to start a 500+ page thread because of this build. Know if I have any thing I did incorrectly I apologize for it.
20th level Human Fighter (Two-handed)
Str: 22 (28 Belt of Physical Perfection + 6) (34 Strength of the Beast + 6)(40 Power of Giants)
Dex: 14 (16 Manual of Quickness of Action + 2)(22 Belt of Physical Perfection + 6)(20 Power of Giants)
Con: 14 (16 Manual of B Health + 2)(22 Belt of Physical Perfection + 6)(26 Power of Giants)
Int: 8 (14 Headband of Mental Prowess + 6)
Wis: 12 (18 Headband of Mental Prowess + 6)
Cha: 15 (21 Headband of Mental Prowess + 6)
HP: 20d10 + 120
AC: 41 (42 if Hasted, 45 with Power of Giants and Hasted) (-2 if using Lunge)
Spd: 30ft
Initiative: +8
Traits: Reactionary + 2 Init, Killer)
Fort: +23 (+25 with Power of Giants)
Ref: + 17 (+16 with Power of Giants)
Will: + 15 (+ 20 vs fear)(+28 with Touch of Rage)(+33 with Touch of Rage and vs Fear)
Feats: Skill Focus(Survival), Eldritch Heritage(Orc Bloodline Touch of Rage), Improved Eldritch Heritage(Strength of the Beast), Greater Eldritch Heritage(Power of Giants), Weapon Focus(Greatsword). Greater Weapon Focus(Greatsword), Weapon Specialization(Greatsword), Greater Weapon Specialization(Greatsword), Power Attack, Furious Focus, Improved Critical(Greatsword), Lighten Weapon, Dodge, Lunge, Critical Focus, Sickening Critical, Penetrating Strike, Stunning Assault, Dazing Assault, Greater Penetrating Strike, Blinding Critical, Critical Mastery,
Fighter: Armor Training 4, Armor Mastery DR 5/-, Weapon Training 1-4, Bravery + 5, Weapon Mastery.
Human Traits (Extra skill points go to UMD plus Favored Class go to UMD as well), Orc traits, darkvision etc…
Skills: ( These are the skills I chose but I haven’t really assigned the points)
UMD:
Survival:
Climb:
Intimidate:
Gear: + 5 large-flaming-Brilliant Energy greatsword, +5 fullplate, Ring of Protection + 5, Amulet of Natural Armor + 5, Cloak of Resistance + 5, Boots of Speed, Belt of Physical Perfection + 6, Ring Of Friend Shield(Worn by a fellow adventurer), Headband of Mental Prowess + 6, Manual of B Health + 2, Manual of Quickness + 2, Tome of Understanding + 2, Scroll of Time Stop, + 2 large dancing greatsword,
+ 5 large flaming brilliant energy greatsword: +41/+30/+25/+20 (-2 from Lighten Weapon, -6 from Power Attack). 17-20 x 2
Damage: 3d6 + 1d6 + 31 + 18 (Power Attack)
Hasted: +42/+42/+31/+26/+21
(Touch of Rage while Hasted: +50/+50/+39/+34/+29
Damage: 3d6 + 1d6 + 31 + 18 + 8 17-20 x 2) Lasts 1 round 8/per day
(Power of Giants and Hasted and Touch of Rage): Str: 40 Dex: 20 Con: 26 HP: 20d10 + 160
Greatsword: +55/+55/+44/+39/+34 17-20 x2 15 foot reach if using Lunge, 10 if not.
Damage: 3d6 + 1d6 + 31 + 18 + 8 + 3
Activate +2 large dancing greatsword (Fights for 4 rounds): Same as above except everything would be 3 lower since it uses my abilities.
In order to activate all of this I would use my UMD skill to cast Time Stop from the scroll I bought.
I know I could do better than this build, I really need to take my time and go through all the books.
I bet I am going to start a 500+ page thread because of this build. Know if I have any thing I did incorrectly I apologize for it.
Why so? It doesn't look overpowered or cheesy or anything. I'm actually somewhat surprised you're using a greatsword with a 2-handed fighter, and even bothered with improved critical for that matter, unless it was just to qualify for critical feats; since at 17th level you can standard-action hit somebody for an auto-threat regardless of threat range, and auto-confirm it at 20th with a x1 multiplier increase.
Most 2 handed fighters at high levels emphasize one-shotting stuff after a move + attack. They are one of the few martial specs that move and deal decent damage due to this. Most 2-handed fighters use scythes to maximize the damage.
For example, if you were using a scythe with a 30 strength (decent at 20th), +5 weapon, and complete devotion (+6 weapon training w/gloves, +4 greater specialization), and furious focus and power attack, you would be looking at a damage of about 10d4+240 damage as a standard action. If you are allowed the collision enhancement for your weapon, it's more like 10d4+265 damage. The killer trait looks good on you, adding yet another +5 damage, potentially bringing you to 10d4+270 damage.
The 2-handed fighter is probably the best archtype for 1-shotting most enemies at 20th level, bringing the Fighter back into the realm he was at 1st level, where his 2d6+6 damage one-shot everything his level as well.
EDIT: In fact, assuming your 40 strength after buffs, and large size, as well as your bloodline rage thingy, you could actually hit the following 1-shot burst damage: 10d6+350 for a big boom. That's 385 average damage if your attack hits. Miss % and mirror image kinda sucks though, but that'll just slow you down.
EDIT 2: Static damage buffs scale huge as a 2-Hander Fighter. A bard's inspire courage will net you an extra +25 damage. A nice thing about this spec is its mobility and high burst damage. You don't really need much CC on a team with a competent mage, because you just need to get in their and burst 'em down. With this setup, you can easily one-shot cloth or plate. You don't need to worry about special types of weapons, because penetration is huge on this build, so damage reduction might as well not exist.
Slot you some +win gems (ioun stones) and have a party. :P
EDIT 3: (Now I'm just being silly) And the spec is far lower in gear dependency than other fighter specs. You can run around in blues or even greens and still be a valid threat, but your defenses may be lacking, so definitely make sure you keep your trinkets macroed for when they try to CC you, or try to debuff you down. You'll definitely want something that allows you to activate freedom of movement and maybe even dimension door to help you gain ground against opponents. A combo that works pretty well with Fighters with maxed UMD ranks is the following macro:
/cast time stop
/cast dimension door
/ready Devastating Blow, condition time stop expires
/cast Devastating Blow
/laugh
Just watch out for mages who sheep you. You might want to pack some of your own shapechanging just because it removes transmute CC. Alter self prevents you from getting sheeped, so you might want to look into that.
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I bet I am going to start a 500+ page thread because of this build. Know if I have any thing I did incorrectly I apologize for it.
20th level Human Fighter (Two-handed)
Str: 22 (28 Belt of Physical Perfection + 6) (34 Strength of the Beast + 6)(40 Power of Giants)
Dex: 14 (16 Manual of Quickness of Action + 2)(22 Belt of Physical Perfection + 6)(20 Power of Giants)
Con: 14 (16 Manual of B Health + 2)(22 Belt of Physical Perfection + 6)(26 Power of Giants)
Int: 8 (14 Headband of Mental Prowess + 6)
Wis: 12 (18 Headband of Mental Prowess + 6)
Cha: 15 (21 Headband of Mental Prowess + 6)
HP: 20d10 + 120
AC: 41 (42 if Hasted, 45 with Power of Giants and Hasted) (-2 if using Lunge)
Spd: 30ft
Initiative: +8
Traits: Reactionary + 2 Init, Killer)
Fort: +23 (+25 with Power of Giants)
Ref: + 17 (+16 with Power of Giants)
Will: + 15 (+ 20 vs fear)(+28 with Touch of Rage)(+33 with Touch of Rage and vs Fear)
Feats: Skill Focus(Survival), Eldritch Heritage(Orc Bloodline Touch of Rage), Improved Eldritch Heritage(Strength of the Beast), Greater Eldritch Heritage(Power of Giants), Weapon Focus(Greatsword). Greater Weapon Focus(Greatsword), Weapon Specialization(Greatsword), Greater Weapon Specialization(Greatsword), Power Attack, Furious Focus, Improved Critical(Greatsword), Lighten Weapon, Dodge, Lunge, Critical Focus, Sickening Critical, Penetrating Strike, Stunning Assault, Dazing Assault, Greater Penetrating Strike, Blinding Critical, Critical Mastery,
Fighter: Armor Training 4, Armor Mastery DR 5/-, Weapon Training 1-4, Bravery + 5, Weapon Mastery.
Human Traits (Extra skill points go to UMD plus Favored Class go to UMD as well), Orc traits, darkvision etc…
Skills: ( These are the skills I chose but I haven’t really assigned the points)
UMD:
Survival:
Climb:
Intimidate:
Gear: + 5 large-flaming-Brilliant Energy greatsword, +5 fullplate, Ring of Protection + 5, Amulet of Natural Armor + 5, Cloak of Resistance + 5, Boots of Speed, Belt of Physical Perfection + 6, Ring Of Friend Shield(Worn by a...
Edit: Some reason it won't let me edit. My x2 should be x3.
I figured the cheese part was the Scroll of Time Stop and the Ring of Friend Shielding.
Meh, I don't think you were being cheesy Shallowsoul. You invested in Use Magic Device, and used a level-appropriate scroll. No cheesier than a rogue using a scroll of disguise self at 1st level, or see invisibility.
Besides, it's kind of a pricey tactic. At 3,825 gp a pop for 2-5 rounds of buff time, it seems fair to me. In fact, you should have more! :P
The ring of friend shielding isn't cheesy at all. Sharing damage is a solid way to mitigate damage. Psionic tank builds revolve around getting temporary HP for themselves and their psicrystal familiars and then splitting damage between each other (for example, you might give yourself and your crystal +25 temporary Hp for the battle, then split incoming damage between you and your crystal who is safely tucked away in your possessions).
I had a group who did that once. Party's cleric had cast shield other on the bard, who later in the battle dove onto a green dragon and crunched his entire necklace of fireballs. When the smoke cleared, the dragon was all but dead (I think it was unconscious) and the bard managed to (barely) stagger away from the blast radius. The cleric, who was obscenely hurt from the blast as well, gave him a stern look and told him to warn her next time. :P
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So back to my game: the solution I'm thinking of for the fallen paladin, assuming he doesn't want to be redeemed, is to switch to cavalier next time he levels. He was already knighted by their order a couple weeks ago and so it would be nothing to have a training time lapse montage.Generally, aren't cavaliers just guys not good enough to be paladins (;
How do you feel about Paladins of other gods?
1. Cavaliers rock.
2. Cavalier of the Star is, almost, the perfect multiclass of a Paladin if it at high enough levels. Channeling stacks with half the Cavalier Levels.3. I think that the Dieties that could be selected by a Paladin rock already, so what's the point in saying that ______ should have a Paladin? You want ranged? Longbow and Crossbow are at your fingertips. Melee? Longsword and Scimitar. Flavorful favored Dieties weapons? I punch you.
I honestly don't see why everyone is saying that Paladin's alignment should be changed. If they want to play a character that could "Smite" enemies and not have to worry about if they are evil or not, then Cavalier is so perfect, its not even funny. Well, it is funny, but thats beside the point.
I figured the cheese part was the Scroll of Time Stop and the Ring of Friend Shielding.
Real cheese is so much cheesier. Your example is akin to sprinkled Parmesan over some spaghetti and meatballs. Core spellcasters are like so much whiz-cheese wrapped in monzarella, deep fried in a creamy nacho dip, and encrusted in a layer of cheddar and breading, before being sprinkled with Parmesan and dipped in awesome sauce.
For example...
You see a scroll of time stop being consumed to give you some rounds to self-buff as being cheesy on your 20th level build. Meanwhile, the wizard can 100% legally build a terrasque in his lab at 15th level for 7,500 gp, and name him Fido. The terrasque is a little weaker than a normal terrasque, but comes through with his racial features in tact, only adjusting them for lesser hit dice.
Heck, maybe your wizard build him a terrasque just to put that ring of friend shielding on, so you can rest assured that the terrasque guarding your house at home is regenerating the HP damage you're suffering.
EDIT: Then again, maybe he gives the terrasque to you so you can ride him, 'cause then you'd have a mount that would make the other ponies poop themselves on sight. You'd feel like this!
I did not see any cheese either SS. Now if you were taking rules bending to an extreme then I might feel differently.
I did not see any cheese either SS. Now if you were taking rules bending to an extreme then I might feel differently.
Ditto.
I was actually waiting to see the results. If the fighter can not out damage the paladin in most encounters when the paladin is not smiting I might have to demote it to rogue(too many others can replace you, sorry bro) category.
Basically I was going to look at the encounters I ran and some of the AP encounters I have run to see if the pally can reasonably be expect to have these buffs up, and what percentage of the time they can be up.
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I was actually waiting to see the results. If the fighter can not out damage the paladin in most encounters when the paladin is not smiting I might have to demote it to rogue(too many others can replace you, sorry bro) category.
Basically I was going to look at the encounters I ran and some of the AP encounters I have run to see if the pally can reasonably be expect to have these buffs up, and what percentage of the time they can be up.
Don't forget that it's not always about pure DPR output. High AC, full maneuverability, auto-crits and other "special" type effects count towards defeating the enemy. Paladins need to have the time in order to buff up. I don't know about you but an enemy having to make a Fort save every time they are hit at DC 30 or become sickened is a great thing.
I was actually waiting to see the results. If the fighter can not out damage the paladin in most encounters when the paladin is not smiting I might have to demote it to rogue(too many others can replace you, sorry bro) category.
Basically I was going to look at the encounters I ran and some of the AP encounters I have run to see if the pally can reasonably be expect to have these buffs up, and what percentage of the time they can be up.
How's this Wraith?
12th level Human Paladin
Favored Class Bonus has not been applied.
Starting Array: 15, 14, 14, 10, 11, 17 (15+2 racial)
Level Increases: +3 Str (4th, 8th, 12th)
Enhancement Bonuses: Str +4, Dex +2, Con +2, Wis +3, Cha +3
HP: 106 (12d10+36); Fort +19, Ref +15, Will +19
AC: 30 (+14 armor, +3 dex, +2 deflection, +2 natural)
Defensive Abilities - Lay on Hands 15/day (6d6, fatigued, diseased, cursed, blinded), Aura of Courage, Divine Grace, Divine Health, Aura of Resolve
=================================================================
Speed: 20 ft, fly 60 ft. (1/day, 8 minutes)
Melee: +2 glaive +20/+15/+10 (1d10+11/x3)
w/Power Attack: +20/+12/+7 (1d10+20/x3)
Ramged: +2 composite longbow +17/+12/+8 (1d8+8/x3)
Special Attacks - Smite Evil 4/day (+5 to hit, +12 damage), Divine Bond: Weapon (+3 weapon), Aura of Justice
=================================================================
Paladin Spells Prepared (CL 9th)
2nd - Weapon of Awe, Shield Other
1st - Grace x1, Hero's Defiance x1, Divine Power x1, Honeyed Tongue x1
Pearls - 1st (5), 2nd (2)
=================================================================
Str 22, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 20
Base Atk +12, CMB +18, CMD 33
Feats - Power Attack, Furious Focus, Combat Reflexes, Extra Lay on Hands, Craft Wondrous Item, Craft Magic Arms & Armor, Extra Lay on Hands
Skills - Diplomacy +20, Sense Motive +17, Spellcraft +15; Misc Mods - mwk tools (spellcraft)
Equipment (money spent 83,810*/108,000 gp) - +2 composite longbow (+6 str)(5,000* gp), +2 glaive (4,310* gp), belt of strength +4 (8,000* gp), gloves of dexterity +2 (2,000* gp), tunic of constitution +2 (2,000* gp), helm of charisma +3 (4,500* gp), ring of protection +2 (8,000 gp), amulet of natural armor +2 (4,000* gp), headband of wisdom +3 (4,500* gp), pearl of power I (5, 2,500* gp), pearl of power II (2, 4,000* gp), celestial full plate (12,500* gp), +4 cloak of resistance (8,000* gp), armored kilt (20 gp); potions/consumables - potion of enlarge person (20, 1,000 gp), wand of cure light wounds (750 gp), wand of lesser restoration (750 gp)
*: Crafted with item creation feat from 7th or 9th level as appropriate. Some items may have been upgraded from lesser versions that were purchased or found at lower levels. Incidentally, I also chose no items that cannot be purchased by a fighter within the 16,000 gp limit of the core rules, except the celestial full plate which the Paladin crafted himself.
Summary/Notes
This Paladin is build as a Tank as well as for damage. He uses a 2 hander, furious focus, and power attack. Combat reflexes lets him obtain a noticeable battlefield presence. He will typically pop a potion of enlarge person for general use, increasing his reach to 20 ft, and his damage to 2d8+21. If he just wants to deal damage, he can spend 1 round to cast divine grace which gives him a +3 to hit and damage for 10 rounds. His bonded weapon can likewise increase hit and damage by +2/+2 and add a +1 ability, or add the speed enhancement, or holy, or whatever else have you. Weapon of Awe has a decently long duration, and applies a +2 sacred bonus to damage.
This is before 13th level where getting inherent modifiers is particularly easy.
A fighter beginning with an 18 Strength would have a +7 strength, which would give him a +21 attack bonus, with greater weapon focus on top and weapon training +3, bringing the Fighter to +26 in the to-hit, and +26 to damage when power attacking with furious focus, assuming same investment into Strength, weapon focus, greater focus, and specialization, and gloves of dueling and weapon training (polearms).
The static difference is in the Fighter's favor. One divine favor later and the difference shrinks a good bit. Meanwhile, the Paladin is stacked as a tank. His saves at 12th level are better than Shallowsoul's 20th level Fighter. :P
But he's compare to some stuff we might see.
According to the Monster Creation, a CR 12 creature will generally have...
160 HP, AC 27, a high attack of +21, 55 average damage per round, and DC 21 primary save DC on abilities. In both cases the Paladin and Fighter hit the critter almost every time. Paladin hits on a 6+ before buffs, while Fighter hits on a 2+ before buffs. Paladin hits on a 2+ after buffing. Assuming the Fighter can comfortably full-attack (such as the enemy not pulling away regularly or teleporting or anything) then the Fighter should bring the single creature down a round or two earlier.
However, I prefer the Paladin in the party because I just don't feel like that damage difference is large enough. This is the Paladin against a hypothetical CR 12 neutral creature. Not even assuming smite (which makes the Paladin rock its world). Both have solid damage output, solid ACs, the Paladin laughs at the critter's high save DC (+19 vs 21 = saves on a 2+), plus toss in immunities, and party support.
I swear that I hope to God that the fighter's extra +hit/damage are worth it to you, because they just aren't worth it to me, when picking a good team. Paladin hits well before buffing, almost as hard as a specced Fighter after buffing (and just as hard if we don't have gloves of dueling), has better endurance, better out of combat support, better saves, etc, etc, etc, etc.
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I was actually waiting to see the results. If the fighter can not out damage the paladin in most encounters when the paladin is not smiting I might have to demote it to rogue(too many others can replace you, sorry bro) category.
Basically I was going to look at the encounters I ran and some of the AP encounters I have run to see if the pally can reasonably be expect to have these buffs up, and what percentage of the time they can be up.
How's this Wraith?
12th level Human Paladin
Favored Class Bonus has not been applied.
Starting Array: 15, 14, 14, 10, 11, 17 (15+2 racial)
Level Increases: +3 Str (4th, 8th, 12th)
Enhancement Bonuses: Str +4, Dex +2, Con +2, Wis +3, Cha +3HP: 106 (12d10+36); Fort +19, Ref +15, Will +19
AC: 30 (+14 armor, +3 dex, +2 deflection, +2 natural)
Defensive Abilities - Lay on Hands 15/day (6d6, fatigued, diseased, cursed, blinded), Aura of Courage, Divine Grace, Divine Health, Aura of Resolve
=================================================================
Speed: 20 ft, fly 60 ft. (1/day, 8 minutes)
Melee: +2 glaive +20/+15/+10 (1d10+11/x3)
w/Power Attack: +20/+12/+7 (1d10+20/x3)
Ramged: +2 composite longbow +17/+12/+8 (1d8+8/x3)
Special Attacks - Smite Evil 4/day (+5 to hit, +12 damage), Divine Bond: Weapon (+3 weapon), Aura of Justice
=================================================================
Paladin Spells Prepared (CL 9th)
2nd - Weapon of Awe, Shield Other
1st - Grace x1, Hero's Defiance x1, Divine Power x1, Honeyed Tongue x1
Pearls - 1st (5), 2nd (2)
=================================================================
Str 22, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 20
Base Atk +12, CMB +18, CMD 33
Feats - Power Attack, Furious Focus, Combat Reflexes, Extra Lay on Hands, Craft Wondrous Item, Craft Magic Arms & Armor, Extra Lay on Hands
Skills - Diplomacy +20, Sense Motive +17, Spellcraft +15; Misc Mods - mwk tools (spellcraft)
Equipment (money spent 83,810*/108,000 gp) - +2 composite longbow (+6 str)(5,000*...
As long as you are hitting those DC's then it doesn't matter how large your saves are.
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I was actually waiting to see the results. If the fighter can not out damage the paladin in most encounters when the paladin is not smiting I might have to demote it to rogue(too many others can replace you, sorry bro) category.
Basically I was going to look at the encounters I ran and some of the AP encounters I have run to see if the pally can reasonably be expect to have these buffs up, and what percentage of the time they can be up.
How's this Wraith?
12th level Human Paladin
Favored Class Bonus has not been applied.
Starting Array: 15, 14, 14, 10, 11, 17 (15+2 racial)
Level Increases: +3 Str (4th, 8th, 12th)
Enhancement Bonuses: Str +4, Dex +2, Con +2, Wis +3, Cha +3HP: 106 (12d10+36); Fort +19, Ref +15, Will +19
AC: 30 (+14 armor, +3 dex, +2 deflection, +2 natural)
Defensive Abilities - Lay on Hands 15/day (6d6, fatigued, diseased, cursed, blinded), Aura of Courage, Divine Grace, Divine Health, Aura of Resolve
=================================================================
Speed: 20 ft, fly 60 ft. (1/day, 8 minutes)
Melee: +2 glaive +20/+15/+10 (1d10+11/x3)
w/Power Attack: +20/+12/+7 (1d10+20/x3)
Ramged: +2 composite longbow +17/+12/+8 (1d8+8/x3)
Special Attacks - Smite Evil 4/day (+5 to hit, +12 damage), Divine Bond: Weapon (+3 weapon), Aura of Justice
=================================================================
Paladin Spells Prepared (CL 9th)
2nd - Weapon of Awe, Shield Other
1st - Grace x1, Hero's Defiance x1, Divine Power x1, Honeyed Tongue x1
Pearls - 1st (5), 2nd (2)
=================================================================
Str 22, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 20
Base Atk +12, CMB +18, CMD 33
Feats - Power Attack, Furious Focus, Combat Reflexes, Extra Lay on Hands, Craft Wondrous Item, Craft Magic Arms & Armor, Extra Lay on Hands
Skills - Diplomacy +20, Sense Motive +17, Spellcraft +15; Misc Mods - mwk tools (spellcraft)
Equipment (money spent 83,810*/108,000 gp) - +2 composite longbow (+6 str)(5,000*...
We're using Crafting feats to craft our own gear? Well that would give me lots more money to spend on other things. I didn't know we were going that route.
We're using Crafting feats to craft our own gear? Well that would give me lots more money to spend on other things. I didn't know we were going that route.
It's a legitimate option during the actual game. I have no reason, what-so-ever, to restrict you from doing the same. Just remember that Fighters can only craft one limited subset of items based on the appropriate Craft skill (weaponsmithing) or (armorsmithing) or (tailoring) and so forth. You cannot take Master Craftsman multiple times, and you cannot Craft magic items with Craft skills that aren't appropriate for it (Spellcraft may be used for ALL magic items); which means you will have to choose between weapons OR armor instead of Weapons AND Armor, and so forth.
Unless you're a gnome, then you have a CL equal to your HD and can just eat the +5 penalty for not having the correct spells, and just cross-class spellcraft like a real man.
I did try to limit what I was purchasing to within the 16,000 gp market price range; but I absolutely wanted some item creation feats because capping out at a +2 weapon, +3 armor, +4 resistance, and +4 ability enhancement doesn't really appeal to me for high levels; and unless you can craft your own gear, then you have to rely on winning the lottery (the item you want showing up as randomly generated gear for purchase) or beg, borrow, or steal it from NPCs.
Also, just to show I'm being conservative here, I didn't include any x/day spell items either, which can be done within the rules with direct pricing. Nor did I pop bestow grace to pimp my saves with a sacred bonus equal to my Charisma modifier.
As long as you are hitting those DC's then it doesn't matter how large your saves are.
You need to think about mods for a minute. Firstly, the Paladin saves on the high DC for a CR 12 creature on a roll of 2+. A CR 13 creature on a 2+. A CR 14 creature on a 2+. CR 15 creature on a 2+, and so on. By 20th level, the Paladin will sport a +12 Fort, +6 Ref, +12 Will, +5 resistance, +7 Dex, +8 Con, +6 Will, and a +9 from Charisma.
That's +34 Fort, +27 Reflex, +32 Will. The average high DC for a monster's primary about at CR 20 is DC 27. That means that the Paladin not only banks it on a 2+ across the board, but also has room to spare.
Now that room to spare bit might not sound like a big deal, but it is. Fighting an antipaladin? -2 to all saves. Get cursed? -4 to all saves. Suffer some energy drain? -1 per negative level to all saves. Sickened? -2 to all saves. Shaken? -2 to all saves (though you're immune to shaken unless you're within melee with an anti-paladin). Limited wish? -7 to your next save.
The Paladin could completely eat the limited wish -7 to all saves and STILL beat the Fortitude or Will DC on a 2+. That is HUGE. Especially when you consider that the stuff at these levels is really, really bad. You got people trying to hurl your into lava via telekinesis, hit you with saves vs massive damage like maximized disintegrate or wail of the banshee, or using dominate monster to turn you against your allies, or locking you down with resilient sphere or force cage, or avoiding becoming a lawn ornament when you're hit with limited wish followed by persistent flesh to stone.
The Fighter? Sports +12 Fort, +6 Ref, +6 Will. Assuming a +8 in Dex, Con, and Will all at the same time, and a +5 resistance item, that's a +25 in his best save. He makes his best save on a 2+ against the monster, but his other saves he fails on a 7-. If he eats a limited wish, he fails on a 8- on his best save and a 14- on his poor saves. Then there's also energy draining, sickening, aura of despair, fear effects, and other problems that are commonly faced at high levels.
Even if the Paladin eats a limited wish -7 to his next save, and is cursed (-4 to all saves) and is in the radius of an antipaladin's aura of despair (-2 to all saves), he still has a +21 to save on his good save, which means he STILL saves on a 5+. That's of course assuming he didn't pop bestow grace and get a +9 sacred bonus to all his saving throws for 1500 rounds.
EDIT: Incidentally, again, I don't think your scroll of time-stop was unfair or cheesy. In fact, it's kind of natural at 20th level. Keep in mind, however, that the Paladin is also Charisma focused and can just as easily max out Use Magic Device. All it takes is one scroll and the Paladin has 2-5 rounds to become an engine of divine wrath. I also didn't bother with bloodline feats either. Notice I intentionally kept it very simple. I didn't even invest his favored class bonus, so he has a floating +20 HP or skill points to spend as desired.
ALSO NOTE: I built it at 12th level to demonstrate it when the Paladin hasn't fully come into his own yet, while the Fighter is at the best place to clearly out-damage the Paladin, as he has access to nearly full weapon training potential due to gloves of dueling, has just hit 12th level so he now has all four specialization feats (weapon focus 1st, weapon specialization 4th, greater focus at 8th, greater specialization at 12th); so this is the level that the Fighter will dominate the absolute most relative to the other classes.
That's why I chose 12th level. Before I could snag my +inherent mods, before I've gotten any particularly nice gear. Before I would even have extra feats to toss around willy-nilly. Before I even have my 3rd or 4th level Paladin spells. This is the epitome of the Fighter's potential relative to his peers. This is the level that he is king in raw modifiers.
EDIT 2: That's the point, actually. I'm giving a Paladin who isn't even going into specifics, didn't bother to dump a single stat below 10 (which I myself don't have issues with). Wraithstrike wanted to see a comparison. I give you, sir, that comparison. This is the Paladin, without excessive optimization. This is the Paladin without heavy emphasis on bloodline feats for super buffs. This is the Paladin just being a Paladin, versus a Fighter just being a Fighter. If I've demonstrated that the Paladin's "whack it with a stick" is merely comparable as a martial option, then I rest my case. Wraithstrike will have seen all that is needed to be seen.
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20th level Human two-weapon Fighter
Str: 13
Dex: 24 (30 Belt of Physical Might)
Con: 14 (20 Belt of Physical Might)
Int: 8 (12 Headband of Mental Prowess +4)
Wis: 14 (18 Headband of Mental Prowess +4)
Cha: 15
Spd: 30ft
Initiative: + 12
Traits: ( Reactionary +2 Init, Killer)
HP: 20d10 + 140
AC: 42 (43 Dodge)(44 Hasted)
Fort: + 22
Ref: +21
Will: + 15 (20 vs Fear)(23 with Touch of Rage)(28 with Touch of Rage vs Fear)
Special: Human Traits, Bloodline Arcana: You gain the orc subtype, including darkvision 60 feet and light sensitivity. If you already have darkvision, its range increases to 90 feet. Whenever you cast a spell that deals damage, that spell deals +1 point of damage per die rolled.
Fighter Abilities: Bravery +5, Armor Training 4, Armor Mastery, Weapon Training 4, Weapon Mastery, Dr 5/-.
Feats: Skill Focus(Survival), Eldritch Heritage(Touch of Rage), Sickening Critical, Critical Focus, Exotic Weapon Proficiency(Wakizashi), Weapon Focus(Wakizashi), Greater Weapon Focus(Wakizashi), Weapon Specialization(Wakizashi), Greater Weapon Specialization(Wakizashi), Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Double Slice, Two-Weapon Defense, Power Attack, Furious Focus, Improved Critical, Dodge, Stunning Assault, Dazing Assault, Weapon Focus, Two-Weapon Rend.
+5 agile brilliant energy wakizashi: + 41/+30/+25/+20 (-2 Two-Weapon and -6 Power Attack)
+5 agile brilliant energy wakizashi: +41/+30/+25
(Hasted): +42/+42/+31/+26/+21/ +42/+31/+26
Damage: 1d6 + 10 + 6 + 5 + 4 + 12 15-20 x3 (DC Fort Stunned and Dazed per hit)(On Crit Sickened for 1 minute)
Damage: 1d6 + 10 + 6 + 5 + 4 + 12 (Two-Weapon Rend add 1d10 + 15 damage per round)
(Hasted and Touch of Rage): +50/+50/+39/+34/+29 +50/+39/+34
Damage: 1d6 + 10 + 6 + 5 + 4 + 12 + 8 15-20 x3
Damage: 1d6 + 10 + 6 + 5 + 4 + 12 + 8 15-20 x3 (Two-Weapon Rend add 1d10 + 15)
Gear: x2 +5 agile brilliant energy wakizashi, +5 mithral fullplate, Ring of Protection +5, Cloak of Resistance +5, Amulet of Natural Armor +5, Headband of Mental Prowess +4, Ring of Friend Shield, Boots of Speed, Gloves of Dueling, Manual of Quickness of Action +4.
Here is a two-weapon fighter I made. I may drop Eldritch Bloodline completely because 1 round of Touch of Rage may not be worth it.
I will come back to look this over, but the initial glance over is pretty nice Ashiel.
Unless the GM has a lot of free time brilliant energy is not that great since a lot of monsters have high natural armor, and don't depend on armor. I probably would have made on of them brilliant energy.
I will look the fighter over closely also.
My 12th level fighter using 25 pb which is equal to Ashiel's stat array. It is the one I posted before but with gear.
HALF-ORC FIGHTER PVP CR 11
Male Half-Orc Fighter (Weapon Master) 12
NN Medium Humanoid (Orc)
Init +8; Senses Darkvision (60 feet); Perception +3
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DEFENSE
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AC 27, touch 13, flat-footed 25. . (+13 armor, +1 Dex, +1 natural, +1 deflection, +1 dodge)
hp 124 (12d10+36)
Fort +15, Ref +10, Will +14
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OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 20 ft.
Melee +3 Bardiche +27/+22/+17 (1d10+20/17-20/x2) and
. . Gauntlet (from Armor) +19/+14/+9 (1d3+7/20/x2) and
. . Masterwork Longsword +20/+15/+10 (1d8+7/19-20/x2) and
. . Unarmed Strike +19/+14/+9 (1d3+7/20/x2)
Ranged +1 Longbow, Composite (Str +5) +15/+10/+5 (1d8+6/20/x3)
Special Attacks Reliable Strike: Bardiche (2/day), Weapon Training +3: Bardiche
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STATISTICS
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Str 20/24, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 13/17, Cha 10
Base Atk +12; CMB +19; CMD 32 (35 vs. Disarm35 vs. Sunder)
Feats Combat Reflexes (3 AoO/round), Dodge, Greater Weapon Focus: Bardiche, Greater Weapon Specialization: Bardiche, Improved Critical: Bardiche, Improved Initiative, Improved Iron Will (1/day), Iron Will, Lunge, Pin Down, Power Attack -4/+8, Weapon Focus: Bardiche, Weapon Specialization: Bardiche
Traits Indomitable Faith, Reactionary
Skills Acrobatics -3, Climb +16, Escape Artist -3, Fly -3, Intimidate +16, Ride -3, Stealth -3, Survival +7, Swim +6
Languages Common, Orc
SQ Weapon Guard +3: Bardiche (Ex)
Combat Gear +1 Longbow, Composite (Str +5), +3 Bardiche, +4 Full Plate, Masterwork Longsword; Other Gear Amulet of Natural Armor +1, Belt of Giant Strength, +4, Broom of Flying, Cloak of Resistance, +3, Headband of Inspired Wisdom, +4, Ring of Protection, +1
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SPECIAL ABILITIES
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Combat Reflexes (3 AoO/round) You may make up to 3 attacks of opportunity per round, and may make them while flat-footed.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Improved Iron Will (1/day) 1/day, re-roll a Will save.
Lunge -2 to AC for +5' reach
Pin Down Opponents that take 5-foot step or withdraw provoke attack of opportunity from you
Power Attack -4/+8 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Reliable Strike: Bardiche (2/day) (Ex) Reroll attack roll, critical confirmation, miss chance or damage roll for your chosen weapon
Weapon Guard +3: Bardiche (Ex) +3 CMD vs. Disarm and Sunder or other effects targeting your chosen weapon.
Weapon Training +3: Bardiche (Ex) +3 to hit and damage with your chosen weapon.
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The constitution is the same as Ashiel's so hit points should be even.
The init modifier is 8, but 2 of that comes from a trait. I am presenting this info because I do not know if the other 2 builds used traits.
The AC is only 27, but that is good enough to cause misses on a power by the enemies.
Saves:Fort +15, Ref +10, Will +14
The will save is 13 without another trait. Since the average DC of a CR 12 monster is 21 the fighter can be expected to make saves.
I have Lunge and Pin down to handle large monsters with reach. Pin Down also is a good way to stop people such as casters and archers from 5 foot stepping to safety.
I also have improved iron will so I can get one additional save if I happen to fail a will save.
I do have a broom for flying. I wanted the full plate celestial armor, but it is more than 25% of my WBL, and I while I do think crafting feats can be useful I did not want to take the feat just to get the armor.
I did not take furious focus because I can most likely hit without it enough that not taking it won't hurt.
Melee [/b]+3 Bardiche +27/+22/+17 (1d10+20/17-20/x2)[/b]
Had I chosen a regular fighter and the gloves of dueling the attack and damage would actually be higher, but the ability to increase the crit multiplier later on and reroll attacks is not bad either. I also get bonuses to resist disarms, and sunders.
PS:Ashiel's paladin is nice, and will be sure to put up good numbers.
The next post will show the DPR numbers of the paladin with each individual buff, no buff, and buffs combined.
VS AC 27 which is standard for a CR 12 monster
Paladin no buff, no power attack: DPR 24.5
Paladin no buff, power attack: DPR 31.35
Divine Grace +3 to attack and damage last 10 round. Standard action
The bonded weapon is probably best giving another speed than another +2 but I will run both. Note I am writing this in between calculations. This is also a standard action to activate, but the duration which can be split up is 12 minutes per day. More than enough to end most fights. I also think the haste is better than the +3 to attack and hit from divine favor, but right now that is just a guess.
I almost forgot weapon of Awe which is a standard action, and 1 mintute per level. +2 to damage
Paladin divine favor, no power attack: DPR 38.61
Paladin divine favor, power attack: DPR 48.78
Paladin Divine Grace(+2 and flaming), no power attack: DPR 39.35
Paladin Divine Grace(+2 and flaming), power attack: DPR 46.3
Paladin Divine Grace(speed), no power attack: 40.84
Paladin Divine Grace(speed), power attack: 51.73
Divine favor giving a +3 is better than Weapon of awe so if the paladin has to make a choice I am assuming divine favor wins out, and I don't think he would stand by buffing.
We will assume divine bond was already activated for the purpose of the next DPR calculation.
Paladin Divine Grace(speed) + divine grace, no power attack: 61.14
Paladin Divine Grace(speed) + divine grace, power attack: 77.97
All 3 buffs, no power attack 67.41
All 3 buffs, power attack 82.92
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Fighter no power attack 70.38
Fighter with power attack, no furious focus 81.00
If I had boots of speeds powr attack goes up to 128.25.
w/o PA 102.51
I can't really afford them at level 12, but by level 13 I could.
4 fights a day, 2 rounds of 130 + damage will take care of most opponents. I am sure I can find 2 points of DPR by level 13.
I am pretty sure with smite switch on the paladin is doing the most damage again, but my only point was to show that without smite the fighter pulls ahead by a good amount.
At level 10 the pally doubles his damage output with smite one.
------------------------------------------
Oh what the heck. I might as well.
Smite and power attack =75.75
divine bond(haste) +smite: 115.83
Even without furious focus factored in the pally has a 90% chance to hit with his first attack.
With furious focus there is no reason for the pally to not power attack against most monsters.
He starts at 48.78, and jumps to 109 or about 116(smite and divine bond.
Is it worth it to still play the fighter? Well it depends on how much you want to hurt things vs how much you want other options. The fighter can still 2 round most opponents equal to his level, and so can the paladin if it has to.
PS:I remember that chart, but the build is always a factor. Smite does pull away without haste. I was curious as to why the fighter starts to come back with haste(assuming both classes have access to it. His "to-hit" bonus helps to make sure his second and later attacks land more. Accuracy is not to be underestimated.
edit:
Both should be hasted at this level most assuredly, by their party members. If not, then we'll need to add some free/swift action hasting items into the mix, because it is just necessary for success.
Another problem I have is in the trickiness of getting off a full-attack at higher levels. One of the reasons a 2-handed fighter, mobile fighter, charger build, or archery build is so appealing is because it's difficult to pin down opponents at high levels. It's easier to just leave the battle with the fighter and eat the AoO to avoid standing there and taking more punishment. Warrior types tend to do best either as dedicated damage dealers or as a AoE guardians who say "Don't stand here under penalty of whupass".
Most intelligent foes aren't going to just stand there and let you pound on them. That's also one of the reasons I really like Nets. Have a cohort or someone similar toss a +1 net on somebody (+1 nets being harder to break) and entangle them with no save. Either they waste a round trying to get free, or they are somewhat stuck and you can burst wings and jump them. :P
ALL martial characters can deal solid damage. Heck, power attack alone guarantees that you will do solid damage if your to-hit is high. By 20th level, with a modest 30 strength (which is modest at 20th), you have a +10 to hit, +15 to damage. Just counting power attack, +5 weapon, and that, you're sporting a +29/+24/+19/+14 to hit before buffs, and dealing +38 damage per swing. Again, that's pre-buffing. Say it with me, +29 to hit, +38 to damage, pre-buffs. Not even haste. That still hits an AC 36 on a 6+.
The question becomes "is dealing more damage critical to success?" "Do we need more dakka?". Perhaps it is my conservative play-style, but rarely do I see Fighters sport enough damage to make me go "Oh yeah, we need more of that guy". Especially at higher levels, where combat is typically won not by who has the biggest guns, but who has the better strategy and defenses.
'Cause they all have 0 DPR as a lawn ornament.
EDIT:
I was curious as to why the fighter starts to come back with haste(assuming both classes have access to it. His "to-hit" bonus helps to make sure his second and later attacks land more. Accuracy is not to be underestimated.
So true. This is the biggest thing that keeps Rogues behind Rangers in terms of DPR.
Also, I wanted to note, that I've never suggested that Fighters don't do stellar damage. They're probably the most damaging option in core. I'm actually very fond of 2 Handed Fighters and archery-based Fighters (not to be confused with archer archtype fighters) because of their sick static damage mods. However, in more recent days, I have found less and less reason to go beyond Fighter 5 with the archery Fighter, since gloves get me to +3/+3 with my bow, which 1/2 the maximum potential a Fighter will ever get even with the gloves).
It's just sad that the 2 handed fighter has to wait 19 levels before he gets good.
The question becomes "is dealing more damage critical to success?" "Do we need more dakka?".
I think it depends on how much damage another class can do in comparison. Being able to two-round an opponent means he is not alive to hurt the party which saves on resources. At some point it I am sure it would become overkill though, assuming the damage got high enough.
The amount of times you get to do a full round attack is also a factor, as well as the GM's tendency to use one monster vs multiple ones.In short it depends on GM, and what the other players are bringing to the table.
I like your fighter build, and it's obvious you know a good deal about being a serious tank. I just would like to discuss a couple of things that made me wonder while reading your post.
1) How do you deal with creatures with Spring Attack? They simply do not provoke attacks for getting in and slapping you. If your answer is "they're slapping me and not my ward" then we're on the same page.
2) Flying in place isn't particularly difficult, and there is a feat that allows you to hover without making fly checks. How do you deal with flying enemies effectively, since you are so heavily invested in tripping? There's a lot of things that can fly more or less at will at higher levels, including humanoids thanks to various magical items.
3) Your defenses are rather abysmal. I know that your build is being presented without magic items, but even assuming a +4 cloak of resistance, +2 Con item, +3 wisdom item, and +3 Dexterity item (bringing you to 18 in each), your saves would be +17, +11, +13. Against an average DC of 21 at CR 12, you're looking at a failure 15% of the time on your highest save, and 50% of the time on your weakest; which leaves me to wonder how you are planning to protect your allies while you are "sheeped". For example, a CR 7 succubus has a DC 22 charm monster and DC 24 dominate monster, while a CR 12 wizard can easily be sporting a DC 24 to avoid being snagged in a bestow curse and rendered impotent.
4) Your tripping potential is very nice. However, it does nothing against things thy fly, swim, or burrow. It auto-fails against creatures like purple worms, oozes, or giant centipedes, etc. Against a CR 12 adult dragon, you have to reliably hit a CR 39 to trip the dragon, which is assuming an un-buffed dragon. What do you do in these cases?
5) How do you react to enemies who send in cannon fodder first, followed by the real threats? Beyond milking your AoOs, you cannot make AoOs against creatures with cover, which means you may have to slug through the enemies closest to you before you can try to lock down the enemies beyond you.
What are your options for dealing with some of these problems? This hasn't begin to assume you're getting enervate-bombed, intimidated, or any other debuffing sort of effect. Adventuring is a dangerous life, and as levels rise things get increasingly fantastic. It is hard for me to buy that a character who is completely built around encountering land-based opponents who use only land-based movement speed, is going to excel exceptionally well by virtue of this build.
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The great thing about Asheil's post is they often ask questions I would have asked, and sometimes they ask things I did not consider. :)
I would like more info on the following statement though:
"I will not fail on a trip period."
If this is a mathematical statement then you can fail, especially if the opponent's CR is above APL, even with the lore warden's bonus to CMB.
Now if you have a found a way to just not fail by other means I am all ears.
I think it depends on how much damage another class can do in comparison. Being able to two-round an opponent means he is not alive to hurt the party which saves on resources. At some point it I am sure it would become overkill though, assuming the damage got high enough.
The amount of times you get to do a full round attack is also a factor, as well as the GM's tendency to use one monster vs multiple ones.In short it depends on GM, and what the other players are bringing to the table.
Fair enough answer, my friend. What you might encounter is a big part of it. That's why I tend to judge things on what you might encounter rather than optimal conditions. Whatever can go wrong probably will, and the best laid plans rarely survive contact with the enemy. :P
For example, the Fighter's damage increase is exceptionally nice when they are assured that they will be able to continue to slug out pound for pound in melee with an opponent. It's one of the reasons I think archery fighters are viable as long as you're not running in to bad things (like wind wall, or that god-awful wind shield spell). They don't really need to be mobile to get their shots off.
Problem is, melee characters who tend to do the tanking instead of the striking don't generally have this convenience. The game becomes increasingly mobile as levels rise, and as levels rise, the option to simple eat an AoO without it meaning death becomes more realistic (if I have 200 HP, and you run up and hit me for 20 damage, it would be better for me to just leave you for another 20 damage instead of letting you wail on me for 100 more damage). Most martial characters become less mobile as the game progresses, because you need your full-attack to really get your damage to soar.
If this were 3.0 with the good haste, then it would look nicer. Unfortunately, it's usually difficult to guarantee that you will be able to get off your full-attack, which generally divides your damage potential pretty harshly. Martial characters lose a lot of their effectiveness in terms of damage as they gain levels. For example, check this simple example.
1st Level Fighter can move 30 ft. and deal 2d6+9 damage with a +4 to hit. His minimum damage will 1-shot most CR 1 enemies and below.
A 20th Level Fighter can move 30 ft. and deal 2d6+48 damage with similar % chances to hit. His maximum damage won't 1-shot most CR 6 enemies, let alone anything near his level range.
So a 20th level Fighter is actually dealing far less damage to enemies relative to his level than the 1st level Fighter was. To make up for this, we have the full attack. However, the full-attack requires the Fighter to move no-less than 5 ft. during his turn; which by 20th level everything and its neighbor is skipping around a 60+ ft. speed one way or another (flying, hasted, teleporting, etc). Unless he's a 19th level 2 handed Fighter, or an 11th level Mobile Fighter (who have their own big drawbacks) you're a slug in a garden of grasshoppers.
20th level Fighter has +10 damage over a 20th level Paladin when not smiting? Sweet deal. Do I think it's enough to validate them as a strong member of the team on that alone? Not a chance. Maybe some sort of bouncy crit-fisher build that relies on tons of critical hit feats can make it look better, but I still feel disappointed. :\
SS has a point. If you dip people can claim the dipped class is doing the heavy lifting.
As for the +26 before magic items which will probably bring another +5 you will probably have around a + 31.
A lot of monsters in this CR range are to big to be tripped, and they have CMD's close to 40 anyway, which still gives you a favorable chance to trip them if you are enlarged.
edit:I just noticed you have 5 levels of fighter, and 6 levels of the lore warden which is a fighter archetype.
You can't do that by the rules. It is either all of the archetype or nothing.
Someone tried that not to long ago. I was thinking, "not again" when I saw that on your other post. I am glad I was mistaken though.
as was said before, the goal is to prevent my party from getting hit. yes all builds are weak against something
Some more-so than others. :o
Again, it only looks like you're good at preventing them from getting hit by tripping them. Incidentally, the generic Paladin can have shield other active which means even if an enemy gets through or CCs him, then he's still defending his party.1 spring attack would be a problem IF they have movement above 40 feet otherwise its game over once they are tripped.
40 ft. or better speed isn't difficult at 12+ level. Haste is probably the most common buff, and since 3.5 haste made it 1 target/level, it's very easy for every enemy you face to be hasted. Even in heavy armor, that's enough speed to mess with you.
2. flying characters would be a problem if i didnt have access to the clerics list.
What makes the cleric's spell list so helpful in this case, if I may ask? You only have 1st level spells by default, so you must rely on scrolls and/or wands to get spells on demand.
3 also fixed by the clerics spell list
See above question. Do you use a lot of consumables and/or wands?
4 true, every build has a weak point. pallys know that better ten anyone, *waves to smite evil"
Smite evil isn't a weak point. It's a strong point. Paladins deal average martial damage anyway. If their foe happens to be evil, then they can slaughter them. Not exactly a chink in the armor. :\
5. thats the entire point in the build.
T1 full action and swift enlarge person combat patrol with reach trip weapon.
t1.5 trip everything you can
t2 whirl wind trip with aoo's if no more potential threats are inc.
t3 full action combat patrolthats 3 round for the rest of the party to mop up the fodder while i lock down the big baddy with trip reach combo.
Being tripped does little beyond inflicting some penalties. It actually makes you harder to hit against ranged weapons. As I noted before, how do you deal with enemies simply plowing through your threatened space? It's a full-round action to use a whirlwind attack, and the cannon fodder just soaks AoOs or provides cover to the guys who want to eat your face.
What do you do if an enemy decides to just go around you? Drop a pit under you? What happens if a CR 4 Dark Stalker hits you with deeper darkness preventing you from taking any AoOs at all and giving your enemies 50% chances to avoid your tripping?
improved iron will is reserved for save or die spells. and my arcane caster is in charge of dispell and buffing.
Fair enough. Improved iron will only gives a second save though, and only 1/day. It's not difficult to fail the 2nd save if it's not difficult to fail the first.
Also, every time your arcane caster has to stop what he is doing and burn actions to try and de-petrify, de-daze, de-confuse, de-dominate, de-kill, de-blind, de-curse, de-slowed, de-stagger, de-sheep, de-spell, de-fear, return you to the battle after you were hurled off a cliff via telekinesis, and so forth, is a round that your arcane caster has been taken out of the fight; which is a victory for your opponent's side, who is actively trying to take the arcane caster out of the fight. σ_σ
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Here is a question, because I am curious. Could you perhaps examine the encounter above, spoilered here for your convenience, and offer some insight as to what your strategies might entail in a given encounter?
Succubus x 4 (CR 7) = 12,800 XP
Shadow Demon x 4 (CR 7) = 12,800 XP
Nabasu x 6 (CR 8) = 28,800 XP
Glabrezu x 2 (CR 13) = 51,200 XP
Marilith x 1 (CR 17) = 102,400 XP
Vrock x 15 (CR 9) = 96,000 XP
Dretch x 5 (CR 2) = 3,000 XP
This is a demon horde led by a Marilith, who commands their fiendish legions. The entire horde can greater teleport at will, and works together. Most of them can summon more demons as spell-like abilities. Here is a quick rundown of the types of things these demons might do.
Marilith uses telekinesis at range to hurl objects or even other demons at the party, or uses it to grapple an enemy magician. If she sees an opening, she will get in and attack an opponent with her tail and constrict them. Anyone who is constricted must make a DC 25 fortitude save or fall unconscious for 1d8 rounds. At this point she moves on to the next foe, as one of the succubi coup de grace the unconscious character with a caster level 12 vampiric touch, likely killing the victim and buffing the succubus to hell and back with temporary HP. Blade barrier controls the battlefield and makes moving around a pain for those without teleportation.
The Nebasu wander around spamming enervation at targets, especially those in heavy armor, inflicting 1d4 negative levels with each ray that hits, no save. There are 6 of them, so that's a potential for 6-24 negative levels. Every negative level inflicts a -1 penalty to all saving throws. When they are out of rays, they will spam telekinesis to hurl objects at the party, or force DC 19 will saves or be hurled about like a rag doll.
The shadow demons seep through the floor and attack anyone who is on land using their blind-fight feat to ignore the miss %, and since they have cover you can't make AoOs against them, and retaliating against them is something of a pain, since you can't ready a full-attack against them. Your best bet is to take to the air. Each shadow demon of course attempts to summon another shadow demon with a 50% success rate, so 4 demons becomes 6 more than likely. They too can also stand back and spam telekinesis.
The succubi screech about the battlefield charm-bombing enemies and taking pot-shots at downed foes with vampiric touch when they're down. Of course, they all attempt to summon Babau demons with a 50% chance, so that adds another 2 acid-coated demons into the mix as cannon fodder. They also will not hesitate to dominate animal companions, mounts, and similar creatures. They're not difficult to kill, but they will generally spread out and distract the party, and can turn ethereal at-will, allowing them very good tactics. If desired, they can fly around and drop nets on the party to entangle them, as they can comfortably carry plenty of them and still greater teleport around the field.
The vrocks all begin a dance of ruin, spreading out into groups of 4 vrocks for maximum effectiveness. Every 3rd round, each group unleashes a 20d6 blast of lightning in a 100 ft. radius, which all of the demons are immune to. So if you don't break up or crowd control the vrocks, you will be eating up to 4 instances of 20d6 electricity damage, which is an average of 280 damage anywhere the radius's overlap. Alternatively, they can keep flying around the party screeching hellishly, forcing DC 21 saves vs stun for 1 round. Becoming stunned can easily mean death in this battle, and you can get hit by up to 15 of these at once, making saving a harry business. That's not counting the auto-damaging spores they can shake every 3 rounds.
The Glabrezu play hell with the party's counters. They possess at-will mirror image, making taking them out difficult, and they can function as spotters for the team, utilizing their constant true-seeing ability. Each can cast power word stun to screw over any foe with 150 HP or less. All can cast reverse gravity and dispel magic, and won't hesitate to shut down the magic items of the party, since a CL 16 dispel magic can shut down the vast majority of magic items easily. Finally they can drop unholy blight every round without fail, dealing 8d8 damage to all good creatures in an area and forcing saves vs nausea. If pushed into combat, they have a 15 ft. reach and decent natural attacks.
Dretch simply skulk about the battlefield dropping stinking clouds into the fray. All the demons are immune to the cloud, but it forces a 5% chance per round to become nauseated for 1d4 rounds, potentially causing some PCs to lose several rounds worth of actions. They also use it because the 20% concealment it provides to people inside the cloud completely negates sneak attack, and thus ruins any chance a rogue has to sneak attack their bosses. With five of them, they should also be able to summon an additional dretch, allowing up to 5-6 stinking clouds throughout the battle.
All of the above is assuming, of course, that none of them are using any of their treasures themselves (such as the marilith using any superior weapons, or clad in armor, or any of them wearing rings or cloaks or anything cool like that, which may indeed be part of their treasure and thus added to their statblock by the GM).
The great thing about Asheil's post is they often ask questions I would have asked, and sometimes they ask things I did not consider. :)
Thank you Wraithstrike.
Well I will say the point in these builds is to not have to dip into any other classes to gain benefits.why not? thats the beauty of fighters, they multiclass so well, a pally does not. thats one aspect of the "strength" of a fighter. a pally must stay a pally and only get pally abilities if it wants to be as powerful as possible, while a fighter can dip and become even BETTER. dont give me some bs about "then thats the power of class x" if the fighter wasnt so narrow minded in its approch to combat it wouldnt have the flexibility to multiclass so well.
i guess i dont really care if someone thinks a 19 fighter/1 cleric isnt a "fighter", that it's a cleric or what ever, multi classing is what makes fighter stronger then pallys.
Well Fighters are a nice dipping class. Fighter 5 / Ranger 15, Fighter 5 / Barbarian 14 / Oracle 1, Fighter 5 / Paladin 15, are all pretty decent options if you just want a few more feats and a quick and easy +4/+5 to hit and damage with your favorite weapons. :P
1st Level Fighter can move 30 ft. and deal 2d6+9 damage with a +4 to hit. His minimum damage will 1-shot most CR 1 enemies and below.
A 20th Level Fighter can move 30 ft. and deal 2d6+48 damage with similar % chances to hit. His maximum damage won't 1-shot most CR 6 enemies, let alone anything near his level range.
So a 20th level Fighter is actually dealing far less damage to enemies relative to his level than the 1st level Fighter was. To make up for this, we have the full attack. However, the full-attack requires the Fighter to move no-less than 5 ft. during his turn; which by 20th level everything and its neighbor is skipping around a 60+ ft. speed one way or another (flying, hasted, teleporting, etc). Unless he's a 19th level 2 handed Fighter, or an 11th level Mobile Fighter (who have their own big drawbacks) you're a slug in a garden of grasshoppers.
20th level Fighter has +10 damage over a 20th level Paladin when not smiting? Sweet deal. Do I think it's enough to validate them as a strong member of the team on that alone? Not a chance. Maybe some sort of bouncy crit-fisher build that relies on tons of critical hit feats can make it look better, but I still feel disappointed. :\
For the 1st level fighter that one attack is the same as his full round attack, but I do agree with the principal that standard actions should be able to do more damage. That is why I like the ToB book. It allowed for good damage even when the GM is playing "keep away".
As for those critical feats many of the good one come to late in the game for my taste. I would have made them available earlier.
Would I choose an fighter over a pally ? Well it depends on the GM. If he is going to trade blows with me I might do it.
More often than not I choose a class with options. I do like using fighters as npc's though.
1 not saying it is difficult, im saying they must have better then a 40 foot movement to get past my defenses.
Which is common, hence my concern.
2. potion of x flight ect so many options to defend from flight. even with only 1st levels spells i can cast off scrolls and wands. i dont want to dig out specific spells, but they are there.
I was actually more concerned with your plans for dealing with them. Flying doesn't allow you to trip flying creatures, for example. So I was wondering what your plans for dealing with that was. Also, there is the issue of holding the line while using a 2 handed reach weapon, while also pulling scrolls and wands, which I was wondering if you might address. That being said, it's good to see you using a 2 hander, since you can release with 1 hand to cast. It's one of the reasons the tank Paladin I posted previously uses a 2 hander instead of a shield.
4 wasted class features are a draw back. and "average martial damage" with which feats? becuase you're not going to take all combat feats. you will take feats like forbidden knowledge, or what ever its called adds new spells to your list, extra layon hands etc... so ill call your bluff on "average martial damage" more like sub par martial damage.
Paladins match warriors, rangers, and non-raging barbarians in damage. Average martial damage they have. They're actually good damage dealers in the grand scheme of things. I don't see why you call it a bluff. They also have buffing options that bring their damage higher as well.
As for what feats, really Power Attack + Furious Focus is enough to sustain decent damage. Vital Strike would be worth it as well if it didn't eat 3 feats just to scale to a reasonable level.
I didn't pick any feats that were particularly special because I wanted to demonstrate how little it actually takes to still be competent. For my Paladin, I had Power Attack, Furious Focus, and Combat Reflexes.
5 do you know what combat patrol does? the trip keeps mobs in my threat range for lung+whirlwind attack, not to mention i have a caster on my back + 2 other characters tossing aoe and dpr on the tripped npcs
Indeed I do. Combat patrol is pretty awesome. I was just wondering, again, what you would do when your opponents are sporting cover, even from other opponents, thus preventing you from making AoOs against them at all. You didn't actually address that, beyond suggesting that you would simply whirlwind them all to the ground; which again assumes that you can trip them at all, and it assumes that it's your turn; whereas the big overrun generally won't happen on your turn at all.
DISSPELLL if my caster does not use this spell to counter such abilities,or the cleric does not have any number of spells to counter deeper darkness then the pally would be just as f~+*ed as the fighter... would he not?
Remember that thing you mentioned about wasted class features being a weakness? Notice how much of your entire build revolves around making attacks of opportunities and tripping folks? Notice that the Paladin is largely immune or highly resistant to most of those bad things? Notice that the Paladin can often remove many of those conditions herself, without losing action economy?
seems like you turned this from a pally v fighter to a "pick appart this guys build" post. i never said this was the end all say all of fighters. but its a damn good one.
I agree it's a good fighter build. I don't expect it to be the end all be all. The Paladin I posted is a far cry for the most uber Paladin you can get. It was just simple, yet effective, and covers its bases well.
I'm not picking apart your build, just doing a small acid test. Actual games have a way of picking apart your build naturally, because the sheer amount of things that can go wrong or be used against you. It is literally you vs the world. The world is bigger than you. It's why one-trick ponies often don't last very long in my games, because they tend to break when their tricks don't work.
It may feel like I'm picking apart your build, but I'm seriously just pointing out stuff that would likely happen in my own game, and can very easily occur during the course of a game. I wasn't even done, really. I mean, just by tossing some smokesticks into the area with your PC, granting total concealment to anyone who isn't 5ft. adjacent to you, can shut your whole build down. Smokesticks my friend. Smokesticks. Those cheap little alchemical goodies. Total concealment means no AoOs, even if you know where your enemy is at.
Again, you didn't really address my concern about the total reliance on your party casters to rescue you when you fail a save vs something bad. Your response was expect them to use their actions to save you. That's pretty rough in the heat of battle, where you can't be sure their initiatives will fall just right. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure they say.
as for your demon horde i would defend the group as best i could while they mopped up. you would use your level 12 ability to add damage to the physical classes leaving the caster classes to get gang banged.
That is a fair enough answer I suppose. My only concern is most of them fly. At least one of them can turn your combat patrol into a bad thing. Several of them can take control of you without too much trouble. Your best bet, from where I'm sitting, seems to be either closely guarding the mages by staying on top of them, or by trying to thin the ranks of the demons who are the most dangerous. By your own commentary, you will be relying on your party to kill anything, which is fair.
The Paladin, on the other hand, basically does the same thing, and has the same capability of simply hugging around the casters to make sure nobody screws with them (since the casters can be well within his threatened space and within range of his protective auras). The fact he can also take 1/2 of the casters' damage to himself is a plus. The fact the enemies happen to be evil so he can burn 2 smites and give the entire party smite evil is icing on the cake (it applies to the mages too, so suddenly they get nice +hit and +damage on their rays and such too). Also applies to summoned monsters. In fact, letting the mages or clerics summon up some critters and then popping Justice can very well win the battle itself.
Meanwhile, the Paladin is also 95% immune to virtually everything the enemies will throw at her, which makes it difficult to simply crowd control the Paladin to get her out of the way to eat the mages.
These are just things I tend to think about when I'm evaluating stuff. For me, it's a lot more than just +numbers. Combat is a lot deeper than that in 3.x/PF; so I tend to think about a lot of stuff. Hope for the best, prepare for the worst.
I think this thread has proved that if the Fighter is outdoing the Paladin, I would never be able to tell in an actual game.
I am lost here.
Even at level 12 a similar thing takes place. She can use lesser demons, and less of them.
Retreating is a good idea. I wish more players would learn the value of it when it is an option.