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My entry:
Human 12th level Paladin (Oathsworn - Oath of Vengeance)
Attributes
Str 22
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 8
Cha 17Feats
1st - Power Attack
1st - Furious Focus
3rd - Weapon Focus: Greatsword
5th - Cornugon Smash
7th - Skill Focus: Survival
9th - Eldritch Heritage (Orcish Bloodline: Touch of Rage)
11th - Improved Eldritch Heritage (Orcish Bloodline: Strength of the Beast)Traits:
Bully (+1 Intimidate, Intimidate is a class skill)
Poverty Stricken (+1 Survival, Survival is a class skill)Skills:
Intimidate 1 rank/level
Survival 1 rank/level
Knowledge: Religion 1 rank/odd level
Diplomacy 1 rank/even levelEquipment:
Greatsword (Divine Bond - Flaming, Keen, +1 enhancement), Fullplate ArmorI think its important to point out that over the next 6 levels, from 11th to 17th, in combat this character will effectively gain an additional +10 Strength, -2 Dexterity, +4 Constitution and +4 Natural Armor from the abilities granted by the Eldritch Heritage feat line. I bring this up because feats taken up to this point that could have been used for optimization at an earlier level were selected to pave the way for those bonuses.
Armor Class: 20
10 +9 [Fullplate Armor] +1 [Dexterity]Full Attack: +20/+11/+6
+12/+7/+2 [BAB] +6 [Strength] +1 [Focus] +1 [Divine Bond enhancement] -0/-4/-4 [Power Attack]Damage: 2d6+1d6+22, Critical on 17+ x2 damage
2d6 +9 [Strength] +1 [Divine Bond enhancement] +1d6 [Divine Bond - Flaming] +12 [Power Attack]There is no way of fairly determining how much preparation time we might have before combat - perhaps none - but to further the point of the combat options that are part of the Paladin's arsenal even when not facing an evil foe, presume the following:
With 1 round to prepare, cast Blessing of Fervor which will allow the option every round of one...
Can't use Orcish bloodline because it's not in the books that were chosen. Also, how are you casting spells with an 8 wisdom?
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We're talking a little better mobility, a little better AC, a little better to-hit... and...No, YOU are talking a little better, we are talking about a LOT better.
At 20th level, and equipped in identical heavy armour and weapons and the fighter has +5 to hit over the paladin, +8 to damage, +4 to AC. He will score more hits, do more damage on each hit, and receive less hits in return.
If you set them against one another, the fighter will win, because his greater damage output will add up to more than the paladin can heal per turn. The fighter also has the advantage of all his other feats - for example, a paladin disarmed or with his weapon sundered is at a BIG disadvantage.
I do agree, the paladin has better saves, immunities and the like, but these are defensive features that may or may not factor in. Unless the paladin is fighting evil, the advantage is to the fighter.
All of that works very well if you take into account ALL of the Fighter's class features and ignore MOST of the Paladin's.
Did you include the +6 enhancement bonuses and features Paladins can give their weapons at level 20? What about spells that increase their Armor Class? How about something like Shield of the Dawnflower which would cause the Fighter to 1d6+15 points of damage every single time he hit the Paladin? Not every round - every HIT, no spell resistance, no saving throw. You do realize that at level 20 the Paladin is swift healing 60 points of damage every round, right? And hammering away at the non-healing Fighter with full attack actions the entire time...
Did you take into account the Eldritch Heritage feats I listed, that the Paladin would qualify for due to his high Charisma but the Fighter would not? At level 17, without a piece of magic equipment on him, he would have a 32 Strength, an 18 Constitution, +4 to his...
While you are wasting time casting spells the fighter is hitting you.
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My entry:
Human 12th level Paladin (Oathsworn - Oath of Vengeance)
Attributes
Str 22
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 8
Cha 17Feats
1st - Power Attack
1st - Furious Focus
3rd - Weapon Focus: Greatsword
5th - Cornugon Smash
7th - Skill Focus: Survival
9th - Eldritch Heritage (Orcish Bloodline: Touch of Rage)
11th - Improved Eldritch Heritage (Orcish Bloodline: Strength of the Beast)Traits:
Bully (+1 Intimidate, Intimidate is a class skill)
Poverty Stricken (+1 Survival, Survival is a class skill)Skills:
Intimidate 1 rank/level
Survival 1 rank/level
Knowledge: Religion 1 rank/odd level
Diplomacy 1 rank/even levelEquipment:
Greatsword (Divine Bond - Flaming, Keen, +1 enhancement), Fullplate ArmorI think its important to point out that over the next 6 levels, from 11th to 17th, in combat this character will effectively gain an additional +10 Strength, -2 Dexterity, +4 Constitution and +4 Natural Armor from the abilities granted by the Eldritch Heritage feat line. I bring this up because feats taken up to this point that could have been used for optimization at an earlier level were selected to pave the way for those bonuses.
Armor Class: 20
10 +9 [Fullplate Armor] +1 [Dexterity]Full Attack: +20/+11/+6
+12/+7/+2 [BAB] +6 [Strength] +1 [Focus] +1 [Divine Bond enhancement] -0/-4/-4 [Power Attack]Damage: 2d6+1d6+22, Critical on 17+ x2 damage
2d6 +9 [Strength] +1 [Divine Bond enhancement] +1d6 [Divine Bond - Flaming] +12 [Power Attack]There is no way of fairly determining how much preparation time we might have before combat - perhaps none - but to further the point of the combat options that are part of the Paladin's arsenal even when not facing an evil foe, presume the following:
With 1 round to prepare, cast Blessing of Fervor which will allow the option every round of one...
Why would you be given time to prepare?
Can't use Orcish bloodline because it's not in the books that were chosen. Also, how are you casting spells with an 8 wisdom?
I presumed those feats were grandfathered in because they were listed in the original build we discussed. In truth, at these lower levels they hurt me more than help - for 3 feats I'm only gaining a +2 bonus to Strength. Thats +1 attack/+1 damage. I could replace one of them with Improved Critical which would free up another +1 to my Divine Bond enhancement bonus and then spend the other two on anything combat oriented I liked. Or four more Lay on Hands. Dazing Assault maybe. Tell you what - in the interest of honoring the letter of the agreement, I'll reconfigure and repost it.
Paladins use Charisma to cast their spells, not Wisdom.
Why would you be given time to prepare?
I may or may not. We might be 100' apart. We might be in an arena with all the time to prepare in the world. We might be in a broom closet. That's why I seperated it out by rounds so that the spells wouldn't interfere with the base numbers - but casting spells is a key class feature of the Paladin, it would be foolish to ignore the options he has at hand.
Think maybe you might want to put all of your questions in a single post?
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Can't use Orcish bloodline because it's not in the books that were chosen. Also, how are you casting spells with an 8 wisdom?I presumed those feats were grandfathered in because they were listed in the original build we discussed. In truth, at these lower levels they hurt me more than help - for 3 feats I'm only gaining a +2 bonus to Strength. Thats +1 attack/+1 damage. I could replace one of them with Improved Critical which would free up another +1 to my Divine Bond enhancement bonus and then spend the other two on anything combat oriented I liked. Or four more Lay on Hands. Dazing Assault maybe.
Paladins use Charisma to cast their spells, not Wisdom.
Wraith specified which books would be used and the Orcs of Golarion wasn't one of them.
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Can't use Orcish bloodline because it's not in the books that were chosen. Also, how are you casting spells with an 8 wisdom?I presumed those feats were grandfathered in because they were listed in the original build we discussed. In truth, at these lower levels they hurt me more than help - for 3 feats I'm only gaining a +2 bonus to Strength. Thats +1 attack/+1 damage. I could replace one of them with Improved Critical which would free up another +1 to my Divine Bond enhancement bonus and then spend the other two on anything combat oriented I liked. Or four more Lay on Hands. Dazing Assault maybe. Tell you what - in the interest of honoring the letter of the agreement, I'll reconfigure and repost it.
Paladins use Charisma to cast their spells, not Wisdom.
That's right! They changed it in Pathfinder.
Wraith specified which books would be used and the Orcs of Golarion wasn't one of them.Can't use Orcish bloodline because it's not in the books that were chosen. Also, how are you casting spells with an 8 wisdom?I presumed those feats were grandfathered in because they were listed in the original build we discussed. In truth, at these lower levels they hurt me more than help - for 3 feats I'm only gaining a +2 bonus to Strength. Thats +1 attack/+1 damage. I could replace one of them with Improved Critical which would free up another +1 to my Divine Bond enhancement bonus and then spend the other two on anything combat oriented I liked. Or four more Lay on Hands. Dazing Assault maybe.
Paladins use Charisma to cast their spells, not Wisdom.
Then here you go - no noticable combat change except that now I'm a real threat to Sunder (no magical weapons, remember) and very, very difficult to sunder in return. Thank you for keeping me honest.
My entry:
Human 12th level Paladin of Sarenrae (Oathsworn - Oath of Vengeance)
Attributes
Str 20 (16+2 racial bonus, +1 at 4th and +1 at 8th)
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 8
Cha 16 (15 +1 at 12th)
Feats
1st - Power Attack
1st - Furious Focus
3rd - Weapon Focus: Greatsword
5th - Improved Sunder
7th - Dodge
9th - Improved Critical: Greatsword
11th - Sundering Strike
Traits
Reactionary (+2 Initiative)
Indomitable Faith (+1 Will saves)
Equipment:
Greatsword (Divine Bond - Flaming, +2 enhancement), Fullplate Armor
Armor Class: 22
10 +9 [Fullplate Armor] +2 [Dexterity] +1 [Dodge]
Full Attack: +20/+11/+6
+12/+7/+2 [BAB] +5 [Strength] +1 [Focus] +2 [Divine Bond enhancement] -0/-4/-4 [Power Attack]
Damage: 2d6+1d6+21, Critical on 17+ x2 damage
2d6 +7 [Strength] +2 [Divine Bond enhancement] +1d6 [Divine Bond - Flaming] +12 [Power Attack]
There is no way of fairly determining how much preparation time we might have before combat - perhaps none - but to further the point of the combat options that are part of the Paladin's arsenal even when not facing an evil foe, presume the following:
With 1 round to prepare, cast Blessing of Fervor which will allow the option every round of one of the following:
- Increase Speed by 30'
- +1 attack as part of full attack action
- +2 attack, +2 AC, +2 Reflex
This grants me the option of higher mobility than the fighter, improved attack and defenses or an additional attack - let's assume that I choose the additional attack every round. That brings me to:
+20/+20/+11/+6 for 3d6+21 damage
With 2 rounds to prepare, I cast the above and then Bull's Strength which grants an effective combat bonus of +2 attack and +3 damage. That brings me to:
+22/+22/+13/+8 for 3d6+24 damage
With 3 rounds to prepare, I cast Vestment of the Champion for a +3 bonus to my armor class to bring it to a total of AC 25.
As a swift action spell, I will also have available to me during combat the spell Hero's Defiance three times.
In combat, we should bear in mind the Paladin's ability to apply Lay on Hands as a swift action, 9/day for 6d6 in self-healing as well as the removal of the Shaken, Dazed, Poisoned and Stunned conditions, all of which could play a key role in combat even against non-evil foes.
In response to your original post I have always liked the thoughts that a class should be more powerful if it is more challenging to play. I personally like wizards a lot a because while at low levels you aren't a powerhouse, if you make it through all the challenges you are more than a force to be reckoned with later.
In response to your original post I have always liked the thoughts that a class should be more powerful if it is more challenging to play. I personally like wizards a lot a because while at low levels you aren't a powerhouse, if you make it through all the challenges you are more than a force to be reckoned with later.
I don't know if this is directed at me, but I'll answer... for me its always been about role-play, not min/maxing or 'roll-play'. I come up with a character concept that I really like, and then within the framework of that concept, I try to make the character as effective as possible. I figure I owe that to myself and to the rest of the party who will be depending on me.
This particular character (the original, not the one reposted as part of a challenge) was written as part of a storyline surrounding the offspring of a legendary Orcish Warlord, one of which was slated to become a recurring villian (his half-sister, a female half-elven/half-orc Summoner). He grew up orphaned and an outcast prone to fits of rage (see Traits) until one day he killed a boy in a fight over nothing. He fled to one of the temples afraid and not knowing what to do, eventually finding a path to redemption as well as a purpose with the Goddess Sarenrae. He's not a polite guy and is a ferocious battle-leader with little interest in politics or foolishness, but he focuses his inner turmoil against those who would prey on the weaker and less fortunate in a constant attempt to redeem his own sin.
Within that framework, I made him the best Paladin I could, even giving him a low Wisdom to account for his temper. It doesn't bother me in the slightest that the character is effective in combat - the challenges I look for on in the role-playing arena.
Regarding a character that was an early challenege but really blossomed and paid off later, I think of an Eldritch Archer. I've never had as much fun as I did playing that character... he was fairly ho-hum in the early levels as a Fighter 1/Transmuter 5 who relied on his bow to attack, btu once he began racking up levels of Eldritch Knight and Arcane Archer, the earlier struggle really began to pay off.
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12th level Human Fighter (Sword and Board)
Str: 20
Dex: 14
Con: 15
Int: 10
Wis: 12
Cha: 13
Hp: 12d10 + 24 + 12
AC: 25 ( 10,+ 2 Dex, + 9 Fullplate, + 2 Shield Focus and G Shield Focus, + 2 Heavy steel Shield)
26 (All the above plus Dodge)
Flat-footed: 23
Touch: 12, 13 with Dodge
Initiative: + 4
Spd: 30ft
Fort: + 10
Ref: + 6
Will: + 7 (+10 vs Fear)
Traits: (Reactionary +2 Initiative, Killer You deal additional damage equal to your weapon’s critical hit modifier when you score a successful
critical hit with a weapon; this additional damage is added to the final total, and is not multiplied by the critical hit multiple itself. This extra damage is a trait bonus.)
Special: Bravery + 3, Armor Training 3, Weapon Training 2, Human features.
Feats: Exotic Weapon Proficiency(Bastardsword), Skill Focus(Nature), Eldritch Heritage(Stormborn), Weapon Focus(Bastardsword), Greater Weapon Focus(Bastardsword), Weapon Specialization(Bastardsword), Greater Weapon Specialization(Bastardsword), Shield Focus(Heavy Steel Shield), Greater Shield Focus(Heavy Steel Shield), Iron Will, Power Attack, Improved Critical(Bastardsword), Lunge, Furious Focus.
Bastardsword: +21/+12/+7(Power Attack)
Damage: 1d10 + 1d6(Shock Stormborn/At 9th level the Shocking Burst ability can be added) + 19(Power Attack) 17-20 x 2
Gear: Full Plate Armor, Bastardsword, Heavy Steel Shield
Skills:
Intimidate: 7 + 3 + 1 (+ 11)
Climb: 7 + 5 + 3 – 3 (+ 12)
Ride: 8 + 2 + 3 -3 (+ 10)
Knowledge: Nature 8 + 1 + 3 Skill Focus (+ 12)
Survival: 7 + 1 + 3 (+ 11)
If I made a mistake please let me know. I threw this together kind of quickly.
What does the +4 (Power Attack) reference there? do you mean -4 due to Power Attack or is it a 4th attack I haven't accounted for?
On a cursory examination, it looks pretty solid to me.
To use your Shocking property, you'll have to spend a standard action to activate it and it will last 5 rounds. You can do that 4x a day - OR you can activate the Shocking Burst property instead as a standard action and have it last for 2 rounds up to 4x a day. I'd stick with the first and after its duration was over, I wouldn't waste a standard action to reactivate it.
Any particular reason why you went Bastard Sword?
In response to your original post I have always liked the thoughts that a class should be more powerful if it is more challenging to play. I personally like wizards a lot a because while at low levels you aren't a powerhouse, if you make it through all the challenges you are more than a force to be reckoned with later.I don't know if this is directed at me, but I'll answer... for me its always been about role-play, not min/maxing or 'roll-play'. I come up with a character concept that I really like, and then within the framework of that concept, I try to make the character as effective as possible. I figure I owe that to myself and to the rest of the party who will be depending on me.
This particular character (the original, not the one reposted as part of a challenge) was written as part of a storyline surrounding the offspring of a legendary Orcish Warlord, one of which was slated to become a recurring villian (his half-sister, a female half-elven/half-orc Summoner). He grew up orphaned and an outcast prone to fits of rage (see Traits) until one day he killed a boy in a fight over nothing. He fled to one of the temples afraid and not knowing what to do, eventually finding a path to redemption as well as a purpose with the Goddess Sarenrae. He's not a polite guy and is a ferocious battle-leader with little interest in politics or foolishness, but he focuses his inner turmoil against those who would prey on the weaker and less fortunate in a constant attempt to redeem his own sin.
Within that framework, I made him the best Paladin I could, even giving him a low Wisdom to account for his temper. It doesn't bother me in the slightest that the character is effective in combat - the challenges I look for on in the role-playing arena.
Regarding a character that was an early challenege but really blossomed and paid off later, I think of an Eldritch Archer. I've never had as much fun as I did playing that character... he was fairly ho-hum in the early levels as a Fighter...
Yeah it was directed at you and I wholeheartedly agree that the roleplaying is the most important part. When I was first taught to play using second edition the whole game was played by thinking outside the box where the rules were used only as the base for the character and not how the campaign would go.
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What does the +4 (Power Attack) reference there? do you mean -4 due to Power Attack or is it a 4th attack I haven't accounted for?
On a cursory examination, it looks pretty solid to me.
To use your Shocking property, you'll have to spend a standard action to activate it and it will last 5 rounds. You can do that 4x a day - OR you can activate the Shocking Burst property instead as a standard action and have it last for 2 rounds up to 4x a day. I'd stick with the first and after its duration was over, I wouldn't waste a standard action to reactivate it.
Any particular reason why you went Bastard Sword?
Not sure where that +4 Power Attack came from. I went Bastardsword for the extra 2 per hit damage. I could have gone Battleaxe and saved myself a feat for something else but oh well.
Not sure where that +4 Power Attack came from. I went Bastardsword for the extra 2 per hit damage. I could have gone Battleaxe and saved myself a feat for something else but oh well.What does the +4 (Power Attack) reference there? do you mean -4 due to Power Attack or is it a 4th attack I haven't accounted for?
On a cursory examination, it looks pretty solid to me.
To use your Shocking property, you'll have to spend a standard action to activate it and it will last 5 rounds. You can do that 4x a day - OR you can activate the Shocking Burst property instead as a standard action and have it last for 2 rounds up to 4x a day. I'd stick with the first and after its duration was over, I wouldn't waste a standard action to reactivate it.
Any particular reason why you went Bastard Sword?
Well, from what I'm looking at, with no time to prepare anything other than our weapons (so NO spells for me which is the worst case scenario), I'm at:
+20/+11/+6 for 3d6+21 (24-39) damage going against AC 26. Crit on a 17+ allows me a free Sunder attempt every time it happens.
You would be at:
+21/+12/+7 for 1d10+1d6+19 (21-35 for the first 5 rounds, 20-29 afterwards) damage going against AC 22. Crit on a 17+
That's assuming that both of us go all-out using Power Attack. I probably wouldn't at first, trying to get more hits in and wear you down until 1) your shocking property ended or 2) a critical successfully sundered your weapon or shield.
I can't use Smite against you, nor use any of my other abilities which only affect evil creatures - which is how this entire discussion got kicked off. I can however heal 6d6 damage a round for 9 rounds without missing a beat. We have about the same number of hit points starting off - how do you think things would turn out?
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Not sure where that +4 Power Attack came from. I went Bastardsword for the extra 2 per hit damage. I could have gone Battleaxe and saved myself a feat for something else but oh well.What does the +4 (Power Attack) reference there? do you mean -4 due to Power Attack or is it a 4th attack I haven't accounted for?
On a cursory examination, it looks pretty solid to me.
To use your Shocking property, you'll have to spend a standard action to activate it and it will last 5 rounds. You can do that 4x a day - OR you can activate the Shocking Burst property instead as a standard action and have it last for 2 rounds up to 4x a day. I'd stick with the first and after its duration was over, I wouldn't waste a standard action to reactivate it.
Any particular reason why you went Bastard Sword?
Well, from what I'm looking at, with no time to prepare anything other than our weapons (so NO spells for me which is the worst case scenario), I'm at:
+20/+11/+6 for 3d6+21 (24-39) damage going against AC 26. Crit on a 17+ allows me a free Sunder attempt every time it happens.
You would be at:
+21/+12/+7 for 1d10+1d6+19 (21-35 for the first 5 rounds, 20-29 afterwards) damage going against AC 22. Crit on a 17+
That's assuming that both of us go all-out using Power Attack. I probably wouldn't at first, trying to get more hits in and wear you down until 1) your shocking property ended or 2) a critical successfully sundered your weapon or shield.
I can't use Smite against you, nor use any of my other abilities which only affect evil creatures - which is how this entire discussion got kicked off. I can however heal 6d6 damage a round for 9 rounds without missing a beat. We have about the same number of hit points starting off - how do you think things would turn out?
Since you don't have Armor Training you only get a +1 to AC from Dex which would make your AC a 21.
Hard to say really, depends on if we crit, to hit with your final attack you have to roll a natural 20.
Something I could do is just drop my shield and go two-handed with my bastardsword or I could take the chance and try and sunder your weapon as well. Who's to say really?
Hard to say really, depends on if we crit, to hit with your final attack you have to roll a natural 20.
Something I could do is just drop my shield and go two-handed with my bastardsword or I could take the chance and try and sunder your weapon as well. Who's to say really?
Well a couple things - first off, thank you for the AC correction. Secondly, we choose a level that would ideally benefit the Fighter, allowing for both Specializations and both Focuses to be taken - I didn't want there to be any 'yeah, but's... but with my healing I could still effectively negate a hit from you every round and I don't even have to try to Sunder - a single crit during the course of my regular attacks could do it. Also keep in mind that with my weapon's enhancement bonuses it would be VERY hard to Sunder in return. Finally, as I said, we're ignoring my ability to cast spells which is a significant part of being a Paladin. It'd probably be worth my time to duck my head for a round or two and cast those spells anyway, considering the advantages they give.
The point of the original discussion was this: Are Paladins more effective than Fighters? The presumptive answer was yes against evil foes, but they'd get their tail handed to them by a fighter the rest of the time.
What we're seeing here is that 'the rest of the time' (that 10%-25% of the time we're facing non-evil foes), Paladins and Fighters are very nearly matched as straight combatants, even without Smite Evil... IF you ignore their ability to cast spells, channel, negate conditions, their enhanced saving throws, the bonuses they give to the rest of the party and so on.
As I said, my Two-Handed Fighter was one of my first and long-time favorite characters. He's got a few great tricks up his sleeve and is a lot of fun to play... but I'd put MY Paladin build (the original one) at level 20 against any Fighter out there and feel quite confidant that he'd outperform him, whether the foe was evil, neutral, construct or elemental, demon or dragon, undead or aberration.
I'm really interested to see what Wraithstrike puts together. I'm sure it will be very different from my own Two-Hander.
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Hard to say really, depends on if we crit, to hit with your final attack you have to roll a natural 20.
Something I could do is just drop my shield and go two-handed with my bastardsword or I could take the chance and try and sunder your weapon as well. Who's to say really?
Well a couple things - first off, thank you for the AC correction. Secondly, we choose a level that would ideally benefit the Fighter, allowing for both Specializations and both Focuses to be taken - I didn't want there to be any 'yeah, but's... but with my healing I could still effectively negate a hit from you every round and I don't even have to try to Sunder - a single crit during the course of my regular attacks could do it. Also keep in mind that with my weapon's enhancement bonuses it would be VERY hard to Sunder in return. Finally, as I said, we're ignoring my ability to cast spells which is a significant part of being a Paladin. It'd probably be worth my time to duck my head for a round or two and cast those spells anyway, considering the advantages they give.
The point of the original discussion was this: Are Paladins more effective than Fighters? The presumptive answer was yes against evil foes, but they'd get their tail handed to them by a fighter the rest of the time.
What we're seeing here is that 'the rest of the time' (that 10%-25% of the time we're facing non-evil foes), Paladins and Fighters are very nearly matched as straight combatants, even without Smite Evil... IF you ignore their ability to cast spells, channel, negate conditions, their enhanced saving throws, the bonuses they give to the rest of the party and so on.
As I said, my Two-Handed Fighter was one of my first and long-time favorite characters. He's got a few great tricks up his sleeve and is a lot of fun to play... but I'd put MY Paladin build (the original one) at level 20 against any Fighter out there and feel quite confidant that he'd outperform him, whether the foe was evil, neutral, construct or elemental,...
Well something else that needs to be looked at is it's not always about the damage. You can build a "trickster" type fighter who can trip you all day long. I think the polearm fighter is one of those builds.
Now with my fighter I could take a -2 to my AC and hit you from 10ft away take a 5ft step and cause you to keep moving which would cause you to only be able to hit me with one attack if I judge it correctly. Only actual gameplay can judge what kind of outcome we would have.
By throwing magic items into the mix we could see some very different situations come up.
Now with my fighter I could take a -2 to my AC and hit you from 10ft away take a 5ft step and cause you to keep moving which would cause you to only be able to hit me with one attack if I judge it correctly. Only actual gameplay can judge what kind of outcome we would have.
And when you did, I'd just take that time to cast a spell rather than chase you. With the ability to heal and cast spells, breaks in combat are better for the Paladin than the Fighter.
Anyway, I always considered Lunge to be a very under-rated feat. These are the feats for my Two-Hander for the first eight levels (he's a Weapon Master):
Human - Power Attack
1st - Cleave
1st - Dodge
2nd - Mobility
3rd - Combat Expertise
4th - Spring Attack
[Retrain Cleave to Whirlwind Attack]
5th - Weapon Focus: Falchion
6th - Lunge
7th - Furious Focus
8th - Greater Weapon Focus: Falchion
Whirlwind Attack at level 4, Lunging Whirlwind Attack at level 6 - and he can take a 5' step in the middle of it if he wants. Later he starts really wrecking havok with his crits...
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Now with my fighter I could take a -2 to my AC and hit you from 10ft away take a 5ft step and cause you to keep moving which would cause you to only be able to hit me with one attack if I judge it correctly. Only actual gameplay can judge what kind of outcome we would have.And when you did, I'd just take that time to cast a spell rather than chase you. With the ability to heal and cast spells, breaks in combat are better for the Paladin than the Fighter.
Anyway, I always considered Lunge to be a very under-rated feat. These are the feats for my Two-Hander for the first eight levels (he's a Weapon Master):
Human - Power Attack
1st - Cleave
1st - Dodge
2nd - Mobility
3rd - Combat Expertise
4th - Spring Attack
[Retrain Cleave to Whirlwind Attack]
5th - Weapon Focus: Falchion
6th - Lunge
7th - Furious Focus
8th - Greater Weapon Focus: FalchionWhirlwind Attack at level 4, Lunging Whirlwind Attack at level 6 - and he can take a 5' step in the middle of it if he wants. Later he starts really wrecking havok with his crits...
I really like Lunge to be honest. I just thought of something else I could do. Now you are limited to your heals, so what I could do is go full defensive at times which would bring my AC to a 30 which would make it even harder for you to hit me and wear you down until your heals are gone. Tactics go a long way, never really like the "Sockem Robots" kind of fighting.
I really like Lunge to be honest. I just thought of something else I could do. Now you are limited to your heals, so what I could do is go full defensive at times which would bring my AC to a 30 which would make it even harder for you to hit me and wear you down until your heals are gone. Tactics go a long way, never really like the "Sockem Robots" kind of fighting.
Limited to Heals? If you started fighting defensively, I'd take the time to cast my spells - Bull's Strength and Blessing of Fervor would have me making extra attacks at full BAB +2... I'd crack that nut eventually, and you have to keep in mind that the longer we fight, the more and more likely it is that I'll crit and Sunder your weapon ;)
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Hence, Cayden Cailean might not have paladins, but a particularly iconic warrior of his following might gain the ability to smite evil.You've given me the start of an interesting idea. Yeah, an Inquisitor of Cayden Cailean... he can do the equivalent of 'smite evil' already-- it's called "judgement".... :D
I'm playing an inquisitor of Cayden Cailean now, actually. Fun character.
The fighter is weaker than the paladin and if you're arguing otherwise you're a fool. They deal slightly less damage when not smiting however that doesn't matter. They have better saves, access to spells, immunities, have the ability to heal themselves and still make full attacks, are better at social skills, and crush enemies to dust when they have smite up. Since cha is a secondary stat for paladins they can go into the orc bloodline which means they will have a higher strength score then the fighter. A paladin won't cause a tpk because of mind affecting spells however a fighter will. On top of that we can throw away the statements of a fighter having better armor considering what spells the paladin has access to.
Slightly? 15 to 20 less points per round is not slightly by my books.
Fighters can get decent will saves they just have to work harder at it. The other things I agree with.|
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I'm playing an inquisitor of Cayden Cailean now, actually. Fun character.Hence, Cayden Cailean might not have paladins, but a particularly iconic warrior of his following might gain the ability to smite evil.You've given me the start of an interesting idea. Yeah, an Inquisitor of Cayden Cailean... he can do the equivalent of 'smite evil' already-- it's called "judgement".... :D
Kewl... Lemme know how it continues to work out as you keep playing him. :)
I guess we are doing level 12 and 25 point-buy. I think have a fighter I can use. I hope so. If not I will have to make one. It will be something I would use in a real game.
In order for something like a string of nat 20 to leading to an unlikely victory I will also simulate the fight using DPR and average a rolling a 10 on any saves if they are needed, but that is not until after the actual combat is done.
This is mostly to see how close the fight is assuming average rolls.
Sorry about the long delay. My internet crapped out for a while.
HALF-ORC FIGHTER PVP CR 11
Male Half-Orc Fighter (Weapon Master) 12
NN Medium Humanoid (Orc)
Init +5; Senses Darkvision (60 feet); Perception +2
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DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 21, touch 12, flat-footed 19. . (+9 armor, +1 Dex, +1 dodge)
hp 113 (12d10+36)
Fort +12, Ref +6, Will +9
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 20 ft.
Melee Bardiche +22/+17/+12 (1d10+14/17-20/x2) and
. . Dagger +17/+12/+7 (1d4+5/19-20/x2) and
. . Gauntlet (from Armor) +17/+12/+7 (1d3+5/20/x2) and
. . Unarmed Strike +17/+12/+7 (1d3+5/20/x2)
Special Attacks Reliable Strike: Bardiche (2/day), Weapon Training +3: Bardiche
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 20, Dex 13, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 10
Base Atk +12; CMB +17; CMD 29 (32 vs. Disarm32 vs. Sunder)
Feats Combat Reflexes (2 AoO/round), Dodge, Greater Weapon Focus: Bardiche, Greater Weapon Specialization: Bardiche, Improved Critical: Bardiche, Improved Initiative, Improved Iron Will (1/day), Iron Will, Lunge, Pin Down, Power Attack -4/+8, Weapon Focus: Bardiche, Weapon Specialization: Bardiche
Skills Acrobatics -5, Climb +13, Escape Artist -5, Fly -5, Intimidate +16, Ride -5, Sense Motive +13, Stealth -5, Survival +6, Swim +3
Languages Common, Orc
SQ Weapon Guard +3: Bardiche (Ex)
Combat Gear Bardiche, Dagger, Full Plate;
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
Combat Reflexes (2 AoO/round) You may make up to 2 attacks of opportunity per round, and may make them while flat-footed.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Improved Iron Will (1/day) 1/day, re-roll a Will save.
Lunge -2 to AC for +5' reach
Pin Down Opponents that take 5-foot step or withdraw provoke attack of opportunity from you
Power Attack -4/+8 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Reliable Strike: Bardiche (2/day) (Ex) Reroll attack roll, critical confirmation, miss chance or damage roll for your chosen weapon
Weapon Guard +3: Bardiche (Ex) +3 CMD vs. Disarm and Sunder or other effects targeting your chosen weapon.
Weapon Training +3: Bardiche (Ex) +3 to hit and damage with your chosen weapon.
Hero Lab® and the Hero Lab logo are Registered Trademarks of LWD Technology, Inc. Free download at http://www.wolflair.com
Pathfinder® and associated marks and logos are trademarks of Paizo Publishing, LLC®, and are used under license.
Feats in order and stats.
1 Improved Initiative
1f combat reflexes
2f Power Attack
3 Iron Will
4f Weapon focus
5 Lunge
6 Dodge
7 weapon specialization
8 Greater Weapon focus
9 Improved Iron Will
10 Improved Crit
11 Pin Down*
12 Greater Weapon specialization
str 20 (16 base +2 race + level up ) 10
dex 13 3
con 15 (13 base +1 level up) 7
int 12 2
wis 14 5
cha 10
The numbers at the end are the point buy numbers.
For HP I was going to suggest taking max at first, and 5.5 after that rounded down so we both get 65 before con modifiers and other things come into play.
Why would you be given time to prepare?I may or may not. We might be 100' apart. We might be in an arena with all the time to prepare in the world. We might be in a broom closet. That's why I seperated it out by rounds so that the spells wouldn't interfere with the base numbers - but casting spells is a key class feature of the Paladin, it would be foolish to ignore the options he has at hand.
Think maybe you might want to put all of your questions in a single post?
So what you are really saying is that it is situational, which is a fair comment. However, on one-on-one, no time to prepare and at close range, the fighter will have the advantage (and that's how most fights in D&D occur).
Divine bond? Takes a standard action to activate.
Buffs? likewise.
Thing is, the fighter has a hell of a lot of options as well, and they are many and more varied than the paladin's. He's more likely to have the advantage with maneuvers, to, and he can branch into areas the paladin will struggle at.
The most DPR/AC combination I have found is sword & board combined with TWF. The fighter has the feats and stats to really make the most of it, the paladin...less so.
That reminds me we do need a range. 40 feet is charging distance so that should work unless anyone has objections.
The fighter is weaker than the paladin and if you're arguing otherwise you're a fool. They deal slightly less damage when not smiting however that doesn't matter. They have better saves, access to spells, immunities, have the ability to heal themselves and still make full attacks, are better at social skills, and crush enemies to dust when they have smite up. Since cha is a secondary stat for paladins they can go into the orc bloodline which means they will have a higher strength score then the fighter. A paladin won't cause a tpk because of mind affecting spells however a fighter will. On top of that we can throw away the statements of a fighter having better armor considering what spells the paladin has access to.
This. So much this. Also, Armor Training is nice but overrated. You gotta back a really high Dexterity to take advantage of it, since it doesn't increase your AC it increases your maximum dexterity bonus. If you begin with a 15 Dexterity, +5 inherent, +6 enhancement, you can end with a 28 26 Dex, which is enough for +5 Celestial Armor or +5 Mithral Full Plate + Full Armor Training. The different between those two is...3 points of AC.
And Paizo released the Celestial Full Plate, which gives +3 AC over celestial armor at a 2 point cost in maximum dexterity, which means you're only beaten by 2, assuming appropriate Dexterity pumping.
I'm an avid believer that Fighter damage can get absolutely gnarly. The biggest reason for me to play a Fighter is just all the little static modifiers you can get to damage (I prefer them as archers or dual-wielders, personally). However, you do not need Fighter damage to be a successful melee. If the Paladin's damage is even close to the Fighter's damage, then the Paladin has nothing to prove. Most martials can fulfill their role by burning 1 feat for Power Attack and Furious Focus. Everything else is gravy.
At 25 point buy: 15, 14, 13, 13, 10, 15 will get you where you want to go, and is before racial modifiers, so you could dump an extra +2 into strength if you really wanted to, but I prefer dumping a +2 into charisma, personally, because I feel it helps more in both short and long term. Assuming you did place your +2 in Charisma, then your stats are 15, 14, 13, 13, 10, 17. By 20th level, you should have +5 inherent modifiers to everything and +6 to everything via magic items, bringing you to 26, 25, 24, 24, 21, 28. You then have 5 points from your level ups at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th, which you can drop to bring them to 30, 26, 24, 24, 21, 28. This is assuming you don't go the +6 inherent route via bloodline feats.
That's enough to get +10 to hit and damage (or +10/+15 2-hander), +8 ranged, reflex, and AC, +140 HP and +7 Fortitude, 9 skill points per level, +5 Will saves, and +9 to all saves, +9 more when under the effects of bestow grace (bringing you to +18 to all saves when you drop a 2nd level spell).
Attack routine is about +36/+30/+25/+20/+15 assuming power attack, furious focus, a +5 weapon, and haste. Nothing more. Your damage, assuming only a +5 weapon and power attack is about 2d6+38. Again, assuming you're not using your divine bond or anything like that. Just damage from a basic +5 weapon, strength, and power attack.
Now a Fighter can sport up to +10 more damage, and probably land more attacks, assuming full-specialization + gloves of dueling. To do so, the Fighter must burn 4/10 of his feats to do so (weapon focus, greater focus, specialization, greater specialization), and use a class-only magic item (gloves of dueling). Since the Paladin has not actually invested any of his class features into the damage yet, I feel the Paladin is not doing badly in this match-up.
The Paladin, however, is innately immune to fear (lolz @ bravery), immune to disease, immune to charm effects, has DR 5-10/evil which benefits him when he's battling non-evil creatures, auto-penetrates evil DR, has +9 to all saves, has 19/day Lay on Hands, which is usually around a 30 point heal plus status recovery, or a 60 point heal with status recovery if you reach 20th, and if you are fighting an evil enemy the Paladin can pop wings and grant everyone in the party her smite evil, turning all the party members into evil-slaughtering juggernauts.
That's before we get into their spells and such, which they actually have a very comfortable amount of, given that their spell levels never rise above 4th, so they get a ton of bonus spells on that 28 Charisma (3 1st, 2 2nd, 2 3rd, and 2 4th), which isn't including any low-level pearls of power. The 2nd level spell slots can be used for stuff like bestow grace which gives them another +9 to all their saving throws, or resist energy which lets them pick an element and grab 30 points of resistance to it.
Again, the only thing considered in this Paladin build being standard issue +5 weapon, normal inherent bonuses, and +6 enhancement magic items (and really the +6 to Intelligence and Wisdom is just gravy).
EDIT: Long story short, I'd rather have a Paladin on my team than a Fighter. Their damage is good enough, they are way better physical and spell-tanks, and they just generally bring way more to a party. They can generally support melee and archery with 2-5 feats (power attack, furious focus, point blank, precise, and maybe deadly aim), have some really good spells. If I was picking a team to succeed, it would include a Paladin before a Fighter.
Now with my fighter I could take a -2 to my AC and hit you from 10ft away take a 5ft step and cause you to keep moving which would cause you to only be able to hit me with one attack if I judge it correctly. Only actual gameplay can judge what kind of outcome we would have.And when you did, I'd just take that time to cast a spell rather than chase you. With the ability to heal and cast spells, breaks in combat are better for the Paladin than the Fighter.
Anyway, I always considered Lunge to be a very under-rated feat. These are the feats for my Two-Hander for the first eight levels (he's a Weapon Master):
Human - Power Attack
1st - Cleave
1st - Dodge
2nd - Mobility
3rd - Combat Expertise
4th - Spring Attack
[Retrain Cleave to Whirlwind Attack]
5th - Weapon Focus: Falchion
6th - Lunge
7th - Furious Focus
8th - Greater Weapon Focus: FalchionWhirlwind Attack at level 4, Lunging Whirlwind Attack at level 6 - and he can take a 5' step in the middle of it if he wants. Later he starts really wrecking havok with his crits...
You can't use a feat without it pre-req. That is important since whirlwind requires spring attack. At the point spring attack is dropped you don't even qualify for whirlwind anymore so it should not even be taken.
You can't use a feat without it pre-req. That is important since whirlwind requires spring attack. At the point spring attack is dropped you don't even qualify for whirlwind anymore so it should not even be taken.Now with my fighter I could take a -2 to my AC and hit you from 10ft away take a 5ft step and cause you to keep moving which would cause you to only be able to hit me with one attack if I judge it correctly. Only actual gameplay can judge what kind of outcome we would have.And when you did, I'd just take that time to cast a spell rather than chase you. With the ability to heal and cast spells, breaks in combat are better for the Paladin than the Fighter.
Anyway, I always considered Lunge to be a very under-rated feat. These are the feats for my Two-Hander for the first eight levels (he's a Weapon Master):
Human - Power Attack
1st - Cleave
1st - Dodge
2nd - Mobility
3rd - Combat Expertise
4th - Spring Attack
[Retrain Cleave to Whirlwind Attack]
5th - Weapon Focus: Falchion
6th - Lunge
7th - Furious Focus
8th - Greater Weapon Focus: FalchionWhirlwind Attack at level 4, Lunging Whirlwind Attack at level 6 - and he can take a 5' step in the middle of it if he wants. Later he starts really wrecking havok with his crits...
Mercurial said retrain cleave to Whirlwind Attack. She still has Dodge, Mobility, and Spring Attack, when she retrains for Whirlwind Attack. (?_?)
I did not know we were using traits. I just added my traits. Nothing else changed.
Male Half-Orc Fighter (Weapon Master) 12
NN Medium Humanoid (Orc)
Init +7; Senses Darkvision (60 feet); Perception +2
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 21, touch 12, flat-footed 19. . (+9 armor, +1 Dex, +1 dodge)
hp 124 (12d10+36)
Fort +12, Ref +6, Will +10
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 20 ft.
Melee Bardiche +22/+17/+12 (1d10+14/17-20/x2) and
. . Dagger +17/+12/+7 (1d4+5/19-20/x2) and
. . Gauntlet (from Armor) +17/+12/+7 (1d3+5/20/x2) and
. . Unarmed Strike +17/+12/+7 (1d3+5/20/x2)
Special Attacks Reliable Strike: Bardiche (2/day), Weapon Training +3: Bardiche
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 20, Dex 13, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 10
Base Atk +12; CMB +17; CMD 29 (32 vs. Disarm32 vs. Sunder)
Feats Combat Reflexes (2 AoO/round), Dodge, Greater Weapon Focus: Bardiche, Greater Weapon Specialization: Bardiche, Improved Critical: Bardiche, Improved Initiative, Improved Iron Will (1/day), Iron Will, Lunge, Pin Down, Power Attack -4/+8, Weapon Focus: Bardiche, Weapon Specialization: Bardiche
Traits Indomitable Faith, Reactionary
Skills Acrobatics -5, Climb +13, Escape Artist -5, Fly -5, Intimidate +16, Ride -5, Stealth -5, Survival +6, Swim +3
Languages Common, Orc
SQ Weapon Guard +3: Bardiche (Ex)
Combat Gear Bardiche, Dagger, Full Plate;
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
Combat Reflexes (2 AoO/round) You may make up to 2 attacks of opportunity per round, and may make them while flat-footed.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Improved Iron Will (1/day) 1/day, re-roll a Will save.
Lunge -2 to AC for +5' reach
Pin Down Opponents that take 5-foot step or withdraw provoke attack of opportunity from you
Power Attack -4/+8 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Reliable Strike: Bardiche (2/day) (Ex) Reroll attack roll, critical confirmation, miss chance or damage roll for your chosen weapon
Weapon Guard +3: Bardiche (Ex) +3 CMD vs. Disarm and Sunder or other effects targeting your chosen weapon.
Weapon Training +3: Bardiche (Ex) +3 to hit and damage with your chosen weapon.
Hero Lab® and the Hero Lab logo are Registered Trademarks of LWD Technology, Inc. Free download at http://www.wolflair.com
Pathfinder® and associated marks and logos are trademarks of Paizo Publishing, LLC®, and are used under license.
I wanted to give this 'challenge' a slight change in perspective after thinking last night, because I worry that we are getting away from the original debate a little and creating some adversarial sentiment that isn't really necessary...
The original point was that against evil creatures Paladins are superior, but against non-evil foes Fighters step up and are much more effective. My contention is that is not the case, that Paladins are more or less equal to Fighters (depending on build) even against non-evil foes. The best way to settle the dispute then is not to build some sort of arena-style battle, but to look at how the two characters would perform against a common non-evil foe.
Browsing the Bestiary, I selected at random three level appropriate foes for our erstwhile combatants - the chaotic neutral Taiga Giant, the neutral Clockwork Golem and the neutral Frost Worm.
We should consider how our characters would fare aginst these foes in comparison to make or disprove the point more than we should concern ourselves with how they would fare against one another. It would be a true challenge to take on these monsters without any magical equipment but I think a lot can be gleaned from considering how each battle would go. I'll post my thoughts on the Paladin as soon as work gives me a legitimate break to do so.
In straight melee the fighter can defeat an opponent if the combat is all melee based. All 3 of these opponents get their butt kicked IMHO, even without gear as my fighter is currently made. Even dropping down to 20pb I think he wins.
The fighter I made should win initiative. Since he has a reach weapon he can charge in using lunge to get the first attack in. The giant steps forward to deliver a full round attack.. The fighter then gets a full round attack in. Rinse repeat until the giant falls.
I think that once the golem get the fighter grappled the fighter is over. If the fighter had gear he could win.
As for the worm, even though it wins initiatve it still loses. The fighter is doing 121.66 against AC 27. The worm is averaging a little over 50 hp for its one attack. The fighter can survive two full rounds at a minimum barring a crit. He can probably take the crit. The worm can only survive 1.5 rounds.
I did not know we were using traits. I just added my traits. Nothing else changed.
First of all - and correct me if I'm wrong - but I think since the Bardiche is a two-handed weapon, your Power Attack benefit would be -4 attack, +12 damage, not +8, yes?
Your and my original discussion was based around the relative DPR of a Paladin vs. a Fighter against non-evil foes - discounting the Paladin's ability to self-heal and everything else, purely DPR which is the area where Fighters should have their greatest advantage. We selected the level that - in my opinion - is most beneficial to Fighters since both Focus and Specialization feats are available.
At the end of the day, using Power Attack (No Furious Focus?) your Fighter has a full attack chain of:
+18/+13/+8 that deals 1d10+26 damage with a Crit on 17-20 (x2)
At the end of the day, my Paladin using Power Attack has a full attack chain of:
+20/+11/+6 that deals 2d6+21+1d6 damage with a Crit on 17-20 (x2)
Now, that is taking into account the Paladin's Divine Bond weapon feature and ONLY that. Obviously allowing him to cast long duration spells like Bull's Strength ahead of time would only add to his outcome, and honestly, in an opening round of combat I would likely duck and weave and attempt to cast Blessing of Fervor to get an additional attack at the highest BAB for the duration of our combat - which would have a HUGE impact on the fight. I limited my build to the books we agreed and did not include any of the large scaling bonuses that would come eventually through the Eldritch Heritage feats for the Orcish Bloodline that a Fighter would never get (like +12 Strength by level 17).
I suppose my point is that if all we did was compare how much damage we could each do just walking up to something non-evil and sticking it, the Paladin is right there with the Fighter and well ahead of him when you take into account everything else the Paladin can do (spells, healing, auras, etc.)... and the other 75% of the time when we are facing evil foes it greatly outshines him. Which makes my original point that Paladins are stronger that Fighters.
Now, Paladins aren't necessarily as versatile as Fighters when it comes to building something you want to play, they aren't necessarily more fun than Fighters, and certainly aren't for everyone. The Fighter you built would certainly play very differently than my Paladin would and would be able to take advantage of other inherent benefits it has (like Reach, Lunge and Combat Reflexes). This isn't about a right or wrong way to play or 'good' characters vs. 'bad' characters... it is purely to back up my assertion that Paladins are stronger than Fighters or are at the very least their equals against non-evil.
Now let's say you and I were using these characters and standing side by side against some great non-evil threat, like a CR 12 Purple Worm... We would have the same AC, more or less the same hit points and same DPR - but I would be granting us BOTH an additional attack every round from the spell Blessing of Fervor. You would also benefit from the auras providing you with +4 saves vs. Fear and Charm effects (which would admittedly make little difference against a Purple Worm) and not only would I be able to heal my wounds during combat without missing a beat but I'd be more or less immune to his poison sting as well. Anbd then when the fight was done I could come over and heal you up as well. That's how a Paladin would roll compared to a Fighter vs. a non-evil foe, and I feel like that proves my point.
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12th level Human Fighter (Two-handed)
Str: 20
Dex: 16
Con: 16
Int: 8
Wis: 13
Cha: 7
HP: 12d10 + 36 + 12
AC: 22 ( 10 + 9 Fullplate + 3 Dex)
23 (Above plus Dodge)
27 (above plus Shield of Swings)
Flat-footed: 19 (23 with Shield of Swings)
Touch: 13 (14 with Dodge)
Spd: 30ft
Initiative: +5 (+3 Dex, + 2 Reactionary Trait)
Fort: + 11
Ref: + 7
Will: + 7 (+10 vs Fear)
Traits: Killer and Reactionary)
Skills: A few
Special: Fighter abilities, human traits.
Feats: Weapon Focus (Greatsword), Greater Weapon Focus(Greatsword), Weapon Specialization(Greatsword), Greater Weapon Specialization(Greatsword), Power Attack, Furious Focus, Improved Critical(Greatsword), Shield of Swings, Lunge, Dodge, Iron Will, Critical Focus, Sickening Critical, Strike Back.
Greatsword: +21/+12/+7 (With Power Attack)
Damage: 2d6 + 9 + 12 18-20 x2 (Sickening Critical)
Damage: 2d6 + 9 + 6 18-20 x2 (Shield of Swings to gain +4 shield bonus to AC)
Here's a quick two-hander I made.
I did not know we were using traits. I just added my traits. Nothing else changed.First of all - and correct me if I'm wrong - but I think since the Bardiche is a two-handed weapon, your Power Attack benefit would be -4 attack, +12 damage, not +8, yes?
Your and my original discussion was based around the relative DPR of a Paladin vs. a Fighter against non-evil foes - discounting the Paladin's ability to self-heal and everything else, purely DPR which is the area where Fighters should have their greatest advantage. We selected the level that - in my opinion - is most beneficial to Fighters since both Focus and Specialization feats are available.
At the end of the day, using Power Attack (No Fuirous Focus?) your Fighter has a full attack chain of:
+18/+13/+8 that deals 1d10+26 damage with a Crit on 17-20 (x2)
At the end of the day, my Paladin using Power Attack has a full attack chain of:
+20/+11/+6 that deals 2d6+21+1d6 damage with a Crit on 17-20 (x2)
Now, that is taking into account the Paladin's Divine Bond weapon feature and ONLY that. Obviously allowing him to cast long duration spells like Bull's Strength ahead of time would only add to his outcome, and honestly, in an opening round of combat I would likely duck and weave and attempt to cast Blessing of Fervor to get an additional attack at the highest BAB for the duration of our combat - which would have a HUGE impact on the fight. I limited my build to the books we agreed and did not include any of the large scaling bonuses that would come eventually through the Eldritch Heritage feats for the Orcish Bloodline.
I suppose my point is that if all we did was compare how much damage we could each do just walking up to something non-evil and sticking it, the Paladin is right there with the Fighter and well ahead of him when you take into account everything else the Paladin can do (spells, healing, auras, etc.)... and the other 75% of the time when we are facing evil foes it greatly outshines...
You are assuming all those abilities get activated. It would take you more than one round to get that buffed up. By that time the enemy would be dead if you were in a group with the fighter. That is why I don't agree with your point. I am sure than in actual game there are times you will get to buff, but I don't think such things can be assumed to always be on.
Edit to last post:
Even the divine bond takes a standard action, and by round 2 the enemy is dead. When you take time to buff it takes away from the damage you will do, and that matters in a real game.
Edit to last post:
Even the divine bond takes a standard action, and by round 2 the enemy is dead. When you take time to buff it takes away from the damage you will do, and that matters in a real game.
By round 2 the enemy is not dead. I don't think you have your numbers right... I'm not sure how this: +18/+13/+8 dealing 1d10+26 damage with a Crit on 17-20 (x2) averages 121.66 damage against AC 27. Even if all three attacks hit (VERY unlikely) you would still only be dealing 81-108 damage in a round. Taking 10 on the attack roll, you'd hit only once in a full attack action, maybe twice if you didn't Power Attack, but then that would dramatically scale back your damage.
And for the record, putting yourself at the most risk to try and kill something as fast as you can before it kills you is not always - or even usually - the best way to go. The Purple Worm's attack is higher and his AC is higher as well, and heaven forbid you succumb to his poison sting...
I had an 8 where there should have been a 4, among other errors, but he point stands that you can't assume the buffs will be there. Without the buffs the fighter is ahead, and in a real game where the fighter and paladin get equipment the fighter does finish the baddy off before the paladin is fully buffed.
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I had an 8 where there should have been a 4, among other errors, but he point stands that you can't assume the buffs will be there. Without the buffs the fighter is ahead, and in a real game where the fighter and paladin get equipment the fighter does finish the baddy off before the paladin is fully buffed.
That's just it - the Fighter and the Paladin get the same equipment. They both qualify for the same armor and weaponry, qualify for the same belts and cloaks... the Paladin actually gets access to more, things like Pearls of Power but that's not a relevant point here. The point is that there are very few things a Fighter can qualify for that the Paladin can't - and we're not discussing the quality of magical gear we might be able to get, we're discussing what the characters themselves are capable of.
For the purposes of our discussion, I have completely stripped myself of the ability to cast spells, made swift healing, channelling, auras, etc. all a moot point, making use of only the single class feature Divine Bond. That's it. You are assuming that every fight takes place in a broom closet. Sometimes there is distance between your foes and you. Sometimes you lay an ambush. Sometimes there's difficult terrain. Sometimes your foe is a spellcaster who can shape the battlefield or invade your mind. Sometimes you're facing waves of foes. In every one of those instances the Paladin comes out ahead.
I will agree to your point: IF there is a fight where there is no time whatsoever to prepare and IF its against a non-evil creature and IF there is no distance, terrain or other obstacles to deal with and IF we're only facing one foe that can be defeated in a round or two and IF that foe isn't capable of casting spells which could affect the outcome of the battle then yes, the Fighter comes out ahead.
By a little.
But I'd hate to play in THAT campaign - it would be boring as hell.
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I had an 8 where there should have been a 4, among other errors, but he point stands that you can't assume the buffs will be there. Without the buffs the fighter is ahead, and in a real game where the fighter and paladin get equipment the fighter does finish the baddy off before the paladin is fully buffed.That's just it - the Fighter and the Paladin get the same equipment. They both qualify for the same armor and weaponry, qualify for the belts and cloaks... the Paladin actually gets access to more, things like Pearls of Power but that's not a relevant point here. The point is that there are very few things a Fighter can qualify for that the Paladin can't - and we're not discussing the quality of magical gear we might be able to get, we're discussing what the characters are capable of.
For the purposes of our discussion, I have completely stripped myself of the ability to cast spells, made swift healing, channelling, auras, etc. all a moot point, including only the single class feature Divine Bond. That's it. You are assuming that every fight takes place in a broom closet. Sometimes there is distance between your foes and you. Sometimes you lay an ambush. Sometimes there's difficult terrain. Sometimes your foe is a spellcaster who can shape the battlefield to invade your mind. Sometimes you're facing waves of foes. In every one of those instances the Paladin comes out ahead.
I will agree to your point: IF there is a fight where there is no time whatsoever to prepare and IF its against a non-evil foe and IF there is no distance, terrain or other obstacles to deal with and IF we're only facing one foe that can be defeated in a round or two and IF that foe isn't capable of casting spells which could affect the outcome of the battle then yes, the Fighter comes out ahead.
By a little.
But I'd hate to play in THAT campaign - it would be boring as hell.
Now in all fairness the Fighter is going to get more out of a suit of +4 fullplate and a heavy shield than the paladin will. I know the paladin can use those same shield feats but he will be feat starved for other things.
The main thing is the fighter doesn't need to take time to buff and his stuff is always on. Also the fighter class is very very versatile and can be used to come up with lots of builds. Strict DPR does not always win the battle but it does help. If you can trip, sunder, sicken, fancy foot work and a lot of other things then you can get the job done easily.
If you use tactics as a fighter then you can be a mean machine.
Now in all fairness the Fighter is going to get more out of a suit of +4 fullplate and a heavy shield than the paladin will. I know the paladin can use those same shield feats but he will be feat starved for other things.
In all fairness, the Paladin doesn't care. For a Fighter to get the most out of his armor, he's looking at mithral full plate, which can hit +7 maximum Dexterity counting Armor Training IV (15th level). Most everyone can wear celestial armor, and paladins, rangers, and barbarians can all wear Celestial Plate Armor, which has a maximum Dex bonus of +6. Not a big difference in AC at all.
Even ignoring divine bond's contribution to damage, I'd rather have the Paladin. Even if the Paladin hypothetically dealt a full 20% less damage than the Fighter, I'd rather have the Paladin. The Paladin has more to bring to the table than the Fighter does, period. They are better tanks, as they can ignore and endure more than a Fighter ever could. Even in a game where the only enemies you ever face are Neutral, I'd rather have the Paladin; because frankly, they have more to bring to the table.
I had an 8 where there should have been a 4, among other errors, but he point stands that you can't assume the buffs will be there. Without the buffs the fighter is ahead, and in a real game where the fighter and paladin get equipment the fighter does finish the baddy off before the paladin is fully buffed.That's just it - the Fighter and the Paladin get the same equipment. They both qualify for the same armor and weaponry, qualify for the same belts and cloaks... the Paladin actually gets access to more, things like Pearls of Power but that's not a relevant point here. The point is that there are very few things a Fighter can qualify for that the Paladin can't - and we're not discussing the quality of magical gear we might be able to get, we're discussing what the characters themselves are capable of.
For the purposes of our discussion, I have completely stripped myself of the ability to cast spells, made swift healing, channelling, auras, etc. all a moot point, making use of only the single class feature Divine Bond. That's it. You are assuming that every fight takes place in a broom closet. Sometimes there is distance between your foes and you. Sometimes you lay an ambush. Sometimes there's difficult terrain. Sometimes your foe is a spellcaster who can shape the battlefield or invade your mind. Sometimes you're facing waves of foes. In every one of those instances the Paladin comes out ahead.
I will agree to your point: IF there is a fight where there is no time whatsoever to prepare and IF its against a non-evil creature and IF there is no distance, terrain or other obstacles to deal with and IF we're only facing one foe that can be defeated in a round or two and IF that foe isn't capable of casting spells which could affect the outcome of the battle then yes, the Fighter comes out ahead.
By a little.
But I'd hate to play in THAT campaign - it would be boring as hell.
Not exactly I am saying if you start the combat off unbuffed. As you buff you get closer, but by the time you are caught up the fight is over, and it is not by a little. The fighter is ahead by 15 to 20 DPR unless someone made some crappy paladins in the DPR threads.
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Now in all fairness the Fighter is going to get more out of a suit of +4 fullplate and a heavy shield than the paladin will. I know the paladin can use those same shield feats but he will be feat starved for other things.In all fairness, the Paladin doesn't care. For a Fighter to get the most out of his armor, he's looking at mithral full plate, which can hit +7 maximum Dexterity counting Armor Training IV (15th level). Most everyone can wear celestial armor, and paladins, rangers, and barbarians can all wear Celestial Plate Armor, which has a maximum Dex bonus of +6. Not a big difference in AC at all.
Even ignoring divine bond's contribution to damage, I'd rather have the Paladin. Even if the Paladin hypothetically dealt a full 20% less damage than the Fighter, I'd rather have the Paladin. The Paladin has more to bring to the table than the Fighter does, period. They are better tanks, as they can ignore and endure more than a Fighter ever could. Even in a game where the only enemies you ever face are Neutral, I'd rather have the Paladin; because frankly, they have more to bring to the table.
Emmmmm no. A fighter doesn't need mithral fullplate because his dex really isn't going to be high enough to benefit from it. Magical +4 fullplate will do the fighter just fine. The Paladin should care because it makes a big difference. When you start throwing equipment in to the mix the fighter becomes even more nasty. Not saying the same isn't true about the paladin but equipment plus all the extra feats a fighter gets can really make the difference.
Not exactly I am saying if you start the combat off unbuffed. As you buff you get closer, but by the time you are caught up the fight is over, and it is not by a little. The fighter is ahead by 15 to 20 DPR unless someone made some crappy paladins in the DPR threads.
Only 15-20 DPR?
Now in all fairness the Fighter is going to get more out of a suit of +4 fullplate and a heavy shield than the paladin will. I know the paladin can use those same shield feats but he will be feat starved for other things.
The main thing is the fighter doesn't need to take time to buff and his stuff is always on. Also the fighter class is very very versatile and can be used to come up with lots of builds. Strict DPR does not always win the battle but it does help. If you can trip, sunder, sicken, fancy foot work and a lot of other things then you can get the job done easily.
If you use tactics as a fighter then you can be a mean machine.
The Fighter will get more out of it those items - but not a LOT more. Likewise, a Paladin can take a +2 Keen Weapon and make it a +4 Keen Weapon of Speed with a standard action. And I stand by my statement that my level 17-20 Paladin will out DPR 95% of Fighters out there against non-evil foes and 100% of Fighters out there against evil ones.
I agree regarding the fighter's versatility and have made that point myself - between archetypes and various feat trees, a nearly infinite number of different Fighters can be made to fit an nearly infinite number of playstyles. That's a large part of its appeal. However the individual fighter is almost always built to specialize at one or two things (like Tripping or Sundering or pure damage output), so comparing 1 to 1, a particular Fighter's specialized abilities versus all that a Paladin can do, the Paladin still comes out way ahead. Some foes can't be Tripped or Sundered or even Stunned and every time you face a foe immune to your unique tricks, you're at a far greater disadvantage than a Paladin is against foes that can't be Smited.
And again - the Paladin offers so much that the fighter doesn't. With his spells, auras and healing he's actually a force multiplier. The Fighter can do what the fighter can do and... well, that's it.