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I've been looking for confirmation about this, but does alter self give the natural armour bonus of the creature? It's not stated anywhere on the spell, but the polymorph rules state:
Polymorph: a polymorph spell transforms your physical body to take on the shape of another creature. While these spells make you appear to be the creature, granting you a +10 bonus on Disguise skill checks, they do not grant you all of the abilities and powers of the creature. Each polymorph spell allows you to assume the form of a creature of a specific type, granting you a number of bonuses to your ability scores and a bonus to your natural armor.
Except one of the options is a troglodyte for a massive +6 to natural armour. Is this how it actually is, or am I missing an exception somewhere?
I've been looking for confirmation about this, but does alter self give the natural armour bonus of the creature? It's not stated anywhere on the spell, but the polymorph rules state:
Polymorph: a polymorph spell transforms your physical body to take on the shape of another creature. While these spells make you appear to be the creature, granting you a +10 bonus on Disguise skill checks, they do not grant you all of the abilities and powers of the creature. Each polymorph spell allows you to assume the form of a creature of a specific type, granting you a number of bonuses to your ability scores and a bonus to your natural armor.Except one of the options is a troglodyte for a massive +6 to natural armour. Is this how it actually is, or am I missing an exception somewhere?
Because you're assuming the form of the creature (not becoming the creature) via the spell you only gain what the spell states you gain.
Take a look at a spell like Form of the Dragon (tells you what natural armor, ability boosts, etc you gain) but you do not actually become a dragon or the adjustments would be much more drastic.
As alter self doesn't reference Natural Armor, you don't gain a boost there.
Stynkk is correct. Pathfinder took a nerfbat to the polymorph school.
You get the natural attacks.
In addition to these benefits, you gain any of the natural attacks of the base creature, including proficiency in those attacks.
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You get the natural attacks.
In addition to these benefits, you gain any of the natural attacks of the base creature, including proficiency in those attacks.
That should really be a reminder on these spells :)
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It just seems odd though. Alter self doesn't reference natural attacks gained, but it's referenced in the polymorph section and you get them when you cast it. Meanwhile, alter self doesn't reference natural armour and the polymorph section has it as well; yet you don't get it.
Where is the distinction I'm missing?
It seems that line is just telling you how most polymorph spells would work, but since they don't want alter self to be too good they did not allow it to give a natural armor bonus. They do need to clear it up. If not for the other polymorph spells telling you how much of a boost you got to natural armor I would assume alter self did also.
For Alter Self what you get nothing but what the text below specifies. If it's not here, you don't get it.General disclaimer: I agree with you. However, there is confusion that I personally feel will only be resolved by an official clarification.
This confusion stems from this sentence regarding the various polymorph spells, of which Alter Self is one of:
Each polymorph spell allows you to assume the form of a creature of a specific type, granting you a number of bonuses to your ability scores and a bonus to your natural armor.The players in question are very used to alter self granting natural armor in 3.5. Their reading of the polymorph school description is that all polymorph spells grant natural armor and attacks by default and then the specific bonuses listed under each spell.
I feel that this (the 1st post) should be flagged for FAQ, with the understanding that the appropriate solution could be as simple as adding a disclaimer to the Alter Self spell explicitly indicating that (as an exception to the otherwise general truth) Alter Self does not improve Natural Armor.
Question - If a character used Alter Self to STAY a medium sized creature, (say a human to an elf), apart from Low Light Vision do they ALSO aquire the +2 Size Bonus to Strength as well?, just clarifying this.
If the form you assume has any of the following abilities, you gain the listed ability: darkvision 60 feet, low-light vision, scent, and swim 30 feet.
Small creature: If the form you take is that of a Small humanoid, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Dexterity.
Medium creature: If the form you take is that of a Medium humanoid, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Strength.
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Question - If a character used Alter Self to STAY a medium sized creature, (say a human to an elf), apart from Low Light Vision do they ALSO aquire the +2 Size Bonus to Strength as well?, just clarifying this.If the form you assume has any of the following abilities, you gain the listed ability: darkvision 60 feet, low-light vision, scent, and swim 30 feet.
Small creature: If the form you take is that of a Small humanoid, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Dexterity.
Medium creature: If the form you take is that of a Medium humanoid, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Strength.
Yup. You don't even have to change to a different species.
Yup. You don't even have to change to a different species.
Question - If a character used Alter Self to STAY a medium sized creature, (say a human to an elf), apart from Low Light Vision do they ALSO aquire the +2 Size Bonus to Strength as well?, just clarifying this.If the form you assume has any of the following abilities, you gain the listed ability: darkvision 60 feet, low-light vision, scent, and swim 30 feet.
Small creature: If the form you take is that of a Small humanoid, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Dexterity.
Medium creature: If the form you take is that of a Medium humanoid, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Strength.
Ah okay...lol, just wondered because 'size' bonuses I thought applied when you actually changed size (from Small to Medium (+2 STR) and Medium to Small (+2 DEX)) though thats not properly explained under the Polymorph section.
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Ah okay...lol, just wondered because 'size' bonuses I thought applied when you actually changed size (from Small to Medium (+2 STR) and Medium to Small (+2 DEX)) though thats not properly explained under the Polymorph section.Yup. You don't even have to change to a different species.
Question - If a character used Alter Self to STAY a medium sized creature, (say a human to an elf), apart from Low Light Vision do they ALSO aquire the +2 Size Bonus to Strength as well?, just clarifying this.If the form you assume has any of the following abilities, you gain the listed ability: darkvision 60 feet, low-light vision, scent, and swim 30 feet.
Small creature: If the form you take is that of a Small humanoid, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Dexterity.
Medium creature: If the form you take is that of a Medium humanoid, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Strength.
They mention it as a specific type of bonus so it won't stack with another size bonus.
Okay, necromancy time...
So, this has never been addressed by the staff which has me wondering about it still.
The way I am seeing it, currently NONE of the 'polymorph' subschool spells mention natural attacks or natural armor, only the polymorph entry.
So, the way I see it that since it doesn't say "this is an exception" then Alter Self works like every other polymorph spell, it's just limited to humanoids.
And, like every other polymorph spell, the only things it specifically calls out are the 'extra stuff' it's able to grant that isn't standard.
TL;DR Since Alter Self nowhere says you do not get natural attacks, movement, and natural armor... you do because those are granted by all polymorph spells.
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Okay, necromancy time...
So, this has never been addressed by the staff which has me wondering about it still.
The way I am seeing it, currently NONE of the 'polymorph' subschool spells mention natural attacks or natural armor, only the polymorph entry.
So, the way I see it that since it doesn't say "this is an exception" then Alter Self works like every other polymorph spell, it's just limited to humanoids.
And, like every other polymorph spell, the only things it specifically calls out are the 'extra stuff' it's able to grant that isn't standard.
TL;DR Since Alter Self nowhere says you do not get natural attacks, movement, and natural armor... you do because those are granted by all polymorph spells.
You get the natural attacks.
Read the polymorph section of the rules:
A polymorph spell transforms your physical body to take on the shape of another creature. While these spells make you appear to be the creature, granting you a +10 bonus on Disguise skill checks, they do not grant you all of the abilities and powers of the creature.
A bonus that you receive with all the polymorph spells.
Each polymorph spell allows you to assume the form of a creature of a specific type, granting you a number of bonuses to your ability scores and a bonus to your natural armor. In addition, each polymorph spell can grant you a number of other benefits, including movement types, resistances, and senses. If the form you choose grants these benefits, or a greater ability of the same type, you gain the listed benefit. If the form grants a lesser ability of the same type, you gain the lesser ability instead. Your base speed changes to match that of the form you assume. If the form grants a swim or burrow speed, you maintain the ability to breathe if you are swimming or burrowing. The DC for any of these abilities equals your DC for the polymorph spell used to change you into that form.
A bonus granted and specified by the spell.
If the spell don't mention a movement type or a bonus to armor class, you don't get it.
In addition to these benefits, you gain any of the natural attacks of the base creature, including proficiency in those attacks. These attacks are based on your base attack bonus, modified by your Strength or Dexterity as appropriate, and use your Strength modifier for determining damage bonuses.
A bonus you get with all the polymorph spells, i.e. you get the natural attacks of the creature.
Most of the polymorph spell specify a natural armor bonus, example Beast shape I:
Small animal: If the form you take is that of a Small animal, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Dexterity and a +1 natural armor bonus.Medium animal: If the form you take is that of a Medium animal, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Strength and a +2 natural armor bonus.
Read the polymorph section of the rules:
A polymorph spell transforms your physical body to take on the shape of another creature. While these spells make you appear to be the creature, granting you a +10 bonus on Disguise skill checks, they do not grant you all of the abilities and powers of the creature.A bonus that you receive with all the polymorph spells.
Each polymorph spell allows you to assume the form of a creature of a specific type, granting you a number of bonuses to your ability scores and a bonus to your natural armor. In addition, each polymorph spell can grant you a number of other benefits, including movement types, resistances, and senses. If the form you choose grants these benefits, or a greater ability of the same type, you gain the listed benefit. If the form grants a lesser ability of the same type, you gain the lesser ability instead. Your base speed changes to match that of the form you assume. If the form grants a swim or burrow speed, you maintain the ability to breathe if you are swimming or burrowing. The DC for any of these abilities equals your DC for the polymorph spell used to change you into that form.
Note what I bolded. It gives you a number of bonuses to your ability scores and a bonus to your natural armor. There's a period there. Which by some interpretations, could be seen as saying that you only get a bonus to your existing natural armor... but if you don't have natural armor... do you still get a bonus? Then it says In ADDITION...
See, that's really the problem... Nowhere does ALTER SELF or Polymorph basic rules specifically say natural attacks are included... No where does ALTER SELF say it grants natural armor. Unless a changeling morphing into a cat keeps her original natural bonus and gets another bonus on top of that, just for turning into a cat? That just seems weird, especially since last I checked housecats don't have natural armor in the first place.
You are however correct that it would not grant extra movement types, unless they were specifically mentioned... That's covered by the 'In addition they CAN' part.
That's why its STILL Not clear.
a polymorph spell transforms your physical body to take on the shape of another creature. While these spells make you appear to be the creature, granting you a +10 bonus on Disguise skill checks, they do not grant you all of the abilities and powers of the creature. Each polymorph spell allows you to assume the form of a creature of a specific type, granting you a number of bonuses to your ability scores and a bonus to your natural armor. In addition, each polymorph spell can grant you a number of other benefits, including movement types, resistances, and senses. If the form you choose grants these benefits, or a greater ability of the same type, you gain the listed benefit. If the form grants a lesser ability of the same type, you gain the lesser ability instead. Your base speed changes to match that of the form you assume. If the form grants a swim or burrow speed, you maintain the ability to breathe if you are swimming or burrowing. The DC for any of these abilities equals your DC for the polymorph spell used to change you into that form.
In addition to these benefits, you gain any of the natural attacks of the base creature, including proficiency in those attacks. These attacks are based on your base attack bonus, modified by your Strength or Dexterity as appropriate, and use your Strength modifier for determining damage bonuses.
So polymorph spells:
Grant a specific bonus to ability scores and a bonus to natural armor as stated by the spell (the bonus is granted, the size of the bonus is per the spell cast)
Grant specific abilities or lesser versions of those abilities if the form doesn't have the full version granted by the spell. If the form has the greater abilities you still only get the listed ability (the abilities are granted the specifics of which abilities are announced by the spell cast).
Grants the base speed of the form taken (explicitly granted in the polymorph rules)
Grant any natural attacks of the base creature, including proficiency (explicitly granted in the polymorph rules)
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Note the only two spells that state what natural attacks you gain are undead anatomy and Form of the Dragon, both of which offer forms that tend to not follow the "normal" rules for natural attacks (dragons gaining different natural attacks based on size, and undead having incorporeal natural attacks, and natural attacks that deal ability damage/drain or energy drain instead of normal damage).
Elemental form, plant shape, vermin shape, monstrous physique and beast shape do not state what natural attacks you gain.
Specific over general -- Form of the Dragon and Undead Anatomy specifically state the natural attacks so that's what you get. The other spells don't so you default to the normal rules which is the natural attacks the form has.
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My biggest issue is the number of polymorph spells that do not grant a specific form and do not conform to the rules provided above. Examples are:
Aspect of the Bear/falcon/wolf/stag
Fins to feet
Youthful appearance
Fleshcurdle
Diego Rossi did a fine job of explaining it, better than I would have.
See, that's really the problem... Nowhere does ALTER SELF or Polymorph basic rules specifically say natural attacks are included.
Except the Polymorph rules do say that.
In addition to these benefits, you gain any of the natural attacks of the base creature
The disconnect you are having is the Polymorph rules stating you gave a bonus to your natural armor. But each spell tells you what that bonus is.
+4 Natural armor
+4 Natural armor
small +1 Natural Armor
Medium +2 Natural armor
In the case of Alter Self, there is not Natural armor bonus listed, so the bonus is +0, as it does not state any larger amount.
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Read the polymorph section of the rules:
A polymorph spell transforms your physical body to take on the shape of another creature. While these spells make you appear to be the creature, granting you a +10 bonus on Disguise skill checks, they do not grant you all of the abilities and powers of the creature.A bonus that you receive with all the polymorph spells.
Each polymorph spell allows you to assume the form of a creature of a specific type, granting you a number of bonuses to your ability scores and a bonus to your natural armor. In addition, each polymorph spell can grant you a number of other benefits, including movement types, resistances, and senses. If the form you choose grants these benefits, or a greater ability of the same type, you gain the listed benefit. If the form grants a lesser ability of the same type, you gain the lesser ability instead. Your base speed changes to match that of the form you assume. If the form grants a swim or burrow speed, you maintain the ability to breathe if you are swimming or burrowing. The DC for any of these abilities equals your DC for the polymorph spell used to change you into that form.Note what I bolded. It gives you a number of bonuses to your ability scores and a bonus to your natural armor. There's a period there. Which by some interpretations, could be seen as saying that you only get a bonus to your existing natural armor... but if you don't have natural armor... do you still get a bonus? Then it says In ADDITION...
See, that's really the problem... Nowhere does ALTER SELF or Polymorph basic rules specifically say natural attacks are included... No where does ALTER SELF say it grants natural armor. Unless a changeling morphing into a cat keeps her original natural bonus and gets another bonus on top of that, just for turning into a cat? That just seems weird, especially since last I checked housecats don't have natural armor in the first place....
You are missing a word, the one I bolded below:
In addition, each polymorph spell can grant you a number of other benefits, including movement types, resistances, and senses.
Can, so it is not automatic. It it not automatic it should be specified into the spell or you get nothing.
You are missing a word, the one I bolded below:
In addition, each polymorph spell can grant you a number of other benefits, including movement types, resistances, and senses.
Can, so it is not automatic. It it not automatic it should be specified into the spell or you get nothing.
No, I am not missing a word. But that word is part of another sentence. You get what is in the previous sentence. Full Stop. In addition, some spells can does not in any way remove anything from the previous sentence.
The disconnect you are having is the Polymorph rules stating you gave a bonus to your natural armor. But each spell tells you what that bonus is.+4 Natural armor+4 Natural armorIn the case of Alter Self, there is not Natural armor bonus listed, so the bonus is +0, as it does not state any larger amount.small +1 Natural Armor
Medium +2 Natural armor
Okay, that actually makes more sense now, so then what about your existing natural armor? If you don't gain it, do you lose it? Seems to me if the spell doesn't affect your natural armor it doesn't affect your natural armor, if it does then it's a bonus to your existing natural armor, right?
So, if I have natural armor of +8 and I cast monstrous physique 1 what is my natural armor... 2 or 10?
Even more so if I am a hag with a Natural Armor +8 when I Alter Self into my "changeling" form, okay sure I don't get the Changeling's Natural Armor +1, but do I keep MY Natural Armor +8?
I've been looking for confirmation about this, but does alter self give the natural armour bonus of the creature? It's not stated anywhere on the spell, but the polymorph rules state:
Polymorph: a polymorph spell transforms your physical body to take on the shape of another creature. While these spells make you appear to be the creature, granting you a +10 bonus on Disguise skill checks, they do not grant you all of the abilities and powers of the creature. Each polymorph spell allows you to assume the form of a creature of a specific type, granting you a number of bonuses to your ability scores and a bonus to your natural armor.Except one of the options is a troglodyte for a massive +6 to natural armour. Is this how it actually is, or am I missing an exception somewhere?You are limited to the intersection of options between the form chosen and what the spell will grant.
You look at the options the form gives. Then you look at the options the spell grants. If what is offered in the first part is not replicated in the second part, you don't get it. As you can see from the quoted text,
What you can get with the alter self spell IS limited to the following.If you take the form of a strix, you don't get flight, if you take the form of a troglodyte, you get +2 strength and darkvision, that's it.
If the form you assume has any of the following abilities, you gain the listed ability: darkvision 60 feet, low-light vision, scent, and swim 30 feet.
Small creature: If the form you take is that of a Small humanoid, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Dexterity.
Medium creature: If the form you take is that of a Medium humanoid, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Strength.
So then why aren't all the spells telling you which natural attacks you get like the Form of the Dragon does? See, that's the problem I still have... it says you get the "Natural attacks and a bonus to your natural armor" and then "in addition" so why is Natural Attacks and Natural Armor mentioned in the same sentence yet you don't get them both?
Because those (the natural attacks) are not in the same paragraph and are additionally explicitly granted on their own by the polymorph spells unless the specific spell states otherwise?
Ah. Here is where the confusion comes from:
granting you a number of bonuses to your ability scores and a bonus to your natural armor.In other words, each spell is granting you these bonuses, but those bonuses are regardless of whatever form you choose to take.
For instance, if you use "Beast Form 1" to turn into a Medium Riding Dog, the spell grants you +2 to Strength and +2 to Natural Armor. It does not matter that the Bestiary says the Riding Dog gets +2 to Dex and +1 to Natural Armor. That is because polymorph spells tell you how much Ability score bonus you get and how much Natural Armor you get. It does not matter what the scores and NA of the base creature are.
Back to Alter Self. It grants +2 to Strength or +2 to Dexterity, regardless of the form you choose. Since it does not list a Natural armor bonus, you do not get one.
Ahhh! Okay so now then that leaves the other question...
Do I LOSE my own natural armor bonus, or do I get as I said, as a green hag with a +8 when I turn into a tiger with Beast Form I, I now have +10 correct?
Or, if I turn into a changeling with Alter Self I will not get their +1 Natural Armor, but I will retain my own, correct?
While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form. You also lose any class features that depend upon form, but those that allow you to add features (such as sorcerers that can grow claws) still function. While most of these should be obvious, the GM is the final arbiter of what abilities depend on form and are lost when a new form is assumed. Your new form might restore a number of these abilities if they are possessed by the new form.
I would say yes, you lose any racial NA you originally had.
A Lizardman's NA bonus is from his scales. This definitely seems to be an "ability that depends on form."
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While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form.
Generally your natural armor isn't a Ex or SU ability, so you don't lose it.
I know, it is counterintuitive, you lose your gleaming scales but you retain the armor class they grant. It is magic, the scales are still there, only they are covered with fake flesh.
With Pathfinder the polymorph don't change you into another creature and that has benefits and drawbacks. One benefit is that you don't lose you natural armor, the drawback is that you don't get the natural armor of the creature that you are mimicking.
If, for some reason, your natural armor is a EX or SU ability dependent on your form, you lose it.
It's a bit odd, but a lizardman using alter self to turn into a lizardman would gain a Strength bonus but lose his Natural Armor bonus.
The lizardfolkd natural armor isn't a EX ability, so you don't lose it.
Similarly a human polymorphing into a lizarfolk with alter self get a lot of scales but no natural armor.
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It's in the name: Alter Self. You are slightly altering yourself, not fully immersing yourself in another form or shape or putting on a different physique altogether (Giant Form, Beast Shape Monstrous Physique).
Alter Self is like becoming a Scooby Doo villain: you get inside a rubber suit, add some lifts or scooch down a bit (size changes) and are generally closer to your new form on the outside but on the inside you're still you.
It calls out Keen Senses as an example, which isn't an Ex or Su ability as far as I can tell.
Losing "form based" abilities would natural include NA in my mind. It's hard to get more "form based" than your skin.
It calls out Keen Senses as an example, which isn't an Ex or Su ability as far as I can tell.
Losing "form based" abilities would natural include NA in my mind. It's hard to get more "form based" than your skin.
Hence why this all needs clarification from the devs, but they always say "no reply needed" because to them it's obvious... but as players we can't all agree on anything!
As for "Keen Senses" what exactly is that? Low-Light Vision? If so, then it very much is Ex and would be lost. Otherwise, I am not really sure what they mean by Keen Senses anyway, unless they mean elves lose their +2 bonus to Perception... cause that's the only "Keen Senses" I know of. :P
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One last clarification for alter self in regards to greater hat of disguise,
For the purpose of favoured enemy does the bonus still apply even if they are in a different form. As said above its like a suit or glimmer over the top of your actual form so I think it should still be given.
Eg favoured enemy undead attacking an undead pretending to be an elf.
And if that seems weird, it's because Favored Enemy is a poorly described ability.
Polymorph spells grant natual armor bonuses if listed (if not listed, assume it grants 0), but you dont lose the Nat armor you have. So if you have a Natual Armor bonus of 4 and you cast hypothetical polymorph spell 1 (dont want to look up what spells grant what) which gives you +2 natual Armor
you now have a natual armor bonus of 2 AND a natual armor bonus of 4, but they dont stack and you take whichever is better, so you keep your 4.
however if you have a natual armor bonus of 1 then cast the spell you have a bonus of 1 and 2 but you take the new number as it's higher.
This doesnt not include Enhancment bonuses to Natural Armor such as from the Amulet of Natual Armor or Amulet of the Armored Fist (specific wounderous item from a PFS senerio)
Also Polymorph spells no not actually change your race. (unless otherwise noted) like Giant Shape makes you aquatic amphibious is needed, but alter slef doesnt make you an elf if your human, you are just shaped like one. (at least RAW thats how it works. most GMs i know houserule it otherwise)
Meaning if you are a tiefling who alter selfs onto an orc you are still in danger out Favored Enemy Outsider(Native) but not Favored enemy Humaniod(Orc)
This is an excellent explanation to the stacking question for Natural Armor. Thank you AsheiraTharine.
For example, suppose my 10th level Wizard casts Alter Self, using Share Spells to turn her Greensting Scorpion familiar into a (totally naked) female gnome. That would mean the new AC for her familiar would be:
10 base
+3 base natural armor (greensting scorpion)
+5 natural armor bonus (10th level wizard familiar)
+1 size bonus (small size)
+3 dexterity bonus (greensting scorpion Dexterity bonus)
-1 dexterity bonus (-2 Dexterity per Table: Ability Adjustments from Size Changes under Polymorph subschool rules)
+1 dexterity bonus (+2 dexterity per Alter Self spell)
Total: 20 AC
Seems like a cheaper method of giving your familiar a set of limbs to UMD wands than spending a feat on Improved Familiar. Mage Armor and Shield could boost this significantly higher, too. Plus, bonus points for distraction for having a naked gnome girl running around the battlefield.
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A positive modifier is called a bonusthat number being "+0" though, definitely not, because that wouldn't be a "bonus."
There are way too many examples of the developers considering things a bonus that isn't a number, so restricting yourself to the glossary definition isn't going to get you an accurate result.
Regardless of what Polymorph rule says, if a spell doesn't say it grants a natural armor bonus of some number, it doesn't grant a bonus of any value. There is no concept of minimum 1.
In the case of Alter Self, there is not Natural armor bonus listed, so the bonus is +0, as it does not state any larger amount.Nope, bonuses are positive, from the ability scores rules:
A positive modifier is called a bonusSo if you're going to argue the way you're trying to, then it would always be a minimum of +1. However, I think it makes a lot more sense obviously for the intention to be "whatever the animal's is if any", but could see it logically either way if you insist on a fixed unrelated value instead.
But a fixed number (i.e. not based on animal having one) AND that number being "+0" though, definitely not, because that wouldn't be a "bonus."
How are you wrong? Oh let me count the ways.
Faulty syllogism: If every A is B ("A positive modifier is called a bonus"), that tells us absolutely nothing about whether every B is A. Also, your quote is dubious as the major premise of a syllogism.
Non Sequitur: Given (wrongly) that a positive number for natural armor bonus is needed, you still haven't demonstrated that the natural armor bonus of the assumed form is the correct value.
Legal Method: Compounding the non sequitur above, explanations about history and intent of the current Polymorph rules are available, and make it clear that copying natural ac bonus out of the bestiary is an undesired, unintended outcome, which puts a burden of positive proof on the claimant.
Consistency: Even if your Dex modifer is -4, it's important whether or not you're allowed to apply your Dex bonus against an attack. Normal clothes have a +0 armor bonus, normal skin has a +0 natural armor bonus.
Do you want more explanations about why and how you're wrong?
