I have not used it that much as a GM or seen it a lot as a player, but it is a crippling spell, but no more so than sleep or color spray. Both of those can set you up for a coup de graced. It is a lot easier to find someone who can remove blindness/deafness at low level than it is to find someone, and have the gold to bring you back to life.
You can be blind and survive if you are a PC. Well assuming the party can keep you safe anyway. Coup de grace is just one hit that is likely to work.
The save on blindness/deafness makes it likely to fail later on unless a player takes feats to keep it viable. I wish it were higher level just so the base save DC would be higher. I hate the idea of picking up heighten spell if I am not using a SoD caster.
I do see your point with wanting to drop the duration though. It is still worth picking up, but I would make it minutes per level. That way they don't have to depend on it being removed by an NPC if the party has not 3rd level cleric, and the spell last for the rest of the combat. Most combats end in 3 rounds, but if not the caster is losing out on the spell, IMHO.
He never said it was a waste of time. He said the one spell designed to counter it is now useless.
The blinded creature can't escape anyway if he can't see. Well he could in theory, but not knowing where things are makes that difficult.
I do wish remove blindness/deafness was a 2nd level spell also though. That is my only issue with it.
If not permanent, then the spell remove blindness/deafness is rather useless. It is a tried and true spell of a balanced nature.Why?
Under the same argument someone could suggest that casting remove paralysis on a holded fighter is a waste of time, which is not.A blinded creature for let's say 6 rounds, still can't fight properly, is an easy target, can't escape without breaking his neck etc.
I don't see why making the effect shorter makes it nonviable as a spell in combat.
You can be blind and survive if you are a PC. Well assuming the party can keep you safe anyway. Coup de grace is just one hit that is likely to work.That's true, but think of a strong enemy who is blinded, or a small enemy party with only 2 humanoids and a lot of monsters.
The save on blindness/deafness makes it likely to fail later on unless a player takes feats to keep it viable. I wish it were higher level just so the base save DC would be higher. I hate the idea of picking up heighten spell if I am not using a SoD caster.
That is true, but you forget that a lot of classes advance very slowly regarding their fort saves. In addition you can always increase your spellcasting attribute and take some spell focus feats, which increase the DC. In addition our cleric often casts Owl's wisdom before battle or in the first round, so all his DCs are increased by 2. There are ways ;)
I do see your point with wanting to drop the duration though. It is still worth picking up, but I would make it minutes per level. That way they don't have to depend on it being removed by an NPC if the party has not 3rd level cleric, and the spell last for the rest of the combat. Most combats end in 3 rounds, but if not the caster is losing out on the spell, IMHO.The problem with this solution is, that it would be no solution. After the battle is over and you have won: You can manage. If you have lost, it doesn' matter much.
Due to the...
The rounds matter for low level casters, and if you are going to bring "possible" scenarios in to the situation then possibly a reach version of remove blindness deafness is prepared or a potion could also be handy. Maybe the low fort class has great fortitude, and a high constitution modifier.
There are endless "what if" statements that could be made. I would not pick the spell if it was reduced to rounds. As for your group I would suggest you run it by them to see what they will say about still thinking it is worth choosing.
10 rounds might work. It does invalidate remove blindness/deafness though since this spell is not common enough to make remove blindness/deafness worth prepping ahead of time, and by the time you get to a healer the spell will have ran its course.
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10 rounds, then another save.If that is failed, it is permenant?
It is a combat winning spell when cast by a pc
and a combat dulling spell if cast on a pc
....and then it is a 'we cant do the rest of this dungeon with a blind evoker'..type of situation
it 'ruins' play
And that makes it a bad thing IMO, and more importantly, IME
I can wake someone up using a standard action from Slumber. I can't fix someone who is blind w/o a trip back to town, praying I can find a 5th level caster or I can afford a 3rd level scroll.
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It sounds like you're making blindness/deafness more inconvenient than it ought to be in the rules. With a party of companions, the effect is at best an adventure day ender. (though my group has gone on when the party bard got blinded).
Also the player doesn't just run into walls like a dunce. Effectively blind has more combat ramifications than exploratory ones. Wizards can still fireball just fine. Creatures have total concealment but not total cover, so you still have line of effect.
re:"but why would you deafen something when you can blind them just as easily?"
-Spell failure.
-or trying to sneak around something with improved invisibility or similar scenario.
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Maybe make the effect minutes or hours instead of rounds. THEN it's a major inconvenience and Remove Blindness/Deafness remains useful, but not a total killer for someone without access to Remove.
(You could also add a tag line to Remove Blindness/Deafness that the spell removes temporary blindness or deafness, such as that caused by magic spells, but not permanent or natural blindness until much higher levels.)
Actually, putting a limit on Blindness/Deafness opens the way for a higher level spell, maybe 4th or 5th, called Permanent Blindness/Deafness.
I think the spell should be hours per level. That way it is effectively permanent for a fight, and debilitating enough even after a fight that removing the effect would be worthwhile.
But removing the effect in battle is where the real value of "remove blindness/deafness" is anyway, so I don't see putting a duration on the spell invalidating the cure spell.
It's a true "save or die" spell in most situations. That means its perfectly balanced until you fail your save, then it's a totally suck spell that never should have existed.
I have this on my list to try to take advantage of in my next encounter, just to see how effective it is. I've never used it before.
Spells are powerful. Too much so? Probably. If you were to nerf blindness/deafness, you'd have to go down the line and nerf every other save or lose low level spell. Color Spray, Sleep, Hideou Laughter, Hold Person, and especially Glitterdust and Pyrotechnics (since they do the exact same effect - blind - at the same spell level but over an area, and are possibly better spells than blindness/deafness already).
Just to name a few spells that'd need correcting.
If you think blindness is nasty, try darkness on a party without darkvision. 2nd level spell, no save (if cast on an object, area or the caster himself). Recently my group of 3 pc's in an AP designed for 4 players defeated a BBEG all essentially blind by the darkness spell. So, yes, blindness is powerful, but no more so than other options available at the same level, and not so much that a determined and clever group of pc's can't win while blind anyway.
10 rounds, then another save.If that is failed, it is permenant?
It is a combat winning spell when cast by a pc
and a combat dulling spell if cast on a pc....and then it is a 'we cant do the rest of this dungeon with a blind evoker'..type of situation
it 'ruins' play
And that makes it a bad thing IMO, and more importantly, IME
It is only combat winning when fighting a single opponent. Other than that the other bad guys have a chance to hold the PC's off.
Having a scroll of remove/blindness deafness is an option if you stick to the permenant version.
Wizards can still fireball just fine. Creatures have total concealment but not total cover, so you still have line of effect.
Fireballing when you can't see is not a good idea. At least that is what I would think as a potential target of friendly fire.
Darkvision does work on a darkness spell. Deeper darkness however negates darkvision.
IF PF, regular darkness just changes the light level and even if it makes the area dark, darkvision still functions in it. Only if the lighting in the area was already dim lighting or darkness would it make the area darkness and give total concealment (ie, can't see). With the added nastiness that mundane light sources won't help. So, situationally very strong. As long as at least one PC has darkvision to direct traffic, though, it's just a 50% miss chance for those w/o it.
Just to clarify.
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/spells/darkness.html#_darkness
If you think blindness is nasty, try darkness on a party without darkvision. 2nd level spell, no save (if cast on an object, area or the caster himself). Recently my group of 3 pc's in an AP designed for 4 players defeated a BBEG all essentially blind by the darkness spell. So, yes, blindness is powerful, but no more so than other options available at the same level, and not so much that a determined and clever group of pc's can't win while blind anyway.the funny thing is that darkvision dosent work in a darkness the spell.
I think you are confusing the pathfinder version of darkness with the 3.5 version of darkness.
School evocation [darkness]; Level bard 2, cleric 2, sorcerer/wizard 2Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, M/DF (bat fur and a piece of coal)
Range touch
Target object touched
Duration 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no
This spell causes an object to radiate darkness out to a 20-foot radius. This darkness causes the illumination level in the area to drop one step, from bright light to normal light, from normal light to dim light, or from dim light to darkness. This spell has no effect in an area that is already dark. Creatures with light vulnerability or sensitivity take no penalties in normal light. All creatures gain concealment (20% miss chance) in dim light. All creatures gain total concealment (50% miss chance) in darkness. Creatures with darkvision can see in an area of dim light or darkness without penalty. Nonmagical sources of light, such as torches and lanterns, do not increase the light level in an area of darkness. Magical light sources only increase the light level in an area if they are of a higher spell level than darkness.
If darkness is cast on a small object that is then placed inside or under a lightproof covering, the spell's effect is blocked until the covering is removed.
This spell does not stack with itself. Darkness can be used to counter or dispel any light spell of equal or lower spell level.
But as I said, none of the characters had darkvision anyway.
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Really, a duration change might be a good idea, but imo it ought to be days/level, not hours, and certainly not minutes.
Assuming survival of the combat, hours per level just means making an early camp to wait out the duration; until people start hitting 10th level, sleep overnight and you're back on the adventure.
If it's a days per level event, then you need to find someone to remove it.
I concur Alitan. Days per level makes it a real pain in the butt, keeping the remove condition spell viable, but doesn't mean you are forced to stagger around until you can find a remove curse because you failed a save on a low level spell.
Hmm, if a dm tried to say a blinded character couldn't flee without breaking their neck, I would ask where does it say that in the rules? Surely reflex for some damage, some type of wisdom orienteering check, but bugging out should be a possibility. Leave the non-blind to deal with the foe.
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Hmm, if a dm tried to say a blinded character couldn't flee without breaking their neck, I would ask where does it say that in the rules? Surely reflex for some damage, some type of wisdom orienteering check, but bugging out should be a possibility. Leave the non-blind to deal with the foe.
Blinded
The creature cannot see. It takes a –2 penalty to Armor Class, loses its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any), and takes a –4 penalty on most Strength- and Dexterity-based skill checks and on opposed Perception skill checks. All checks and activities that rely on vision (such as reading and Perception checks based on sight) automatically fail. All opponents are considered to have total concealment (50% miss chance) against the blinded character. Blind creatures must make a DC 10 Acrobatics skill check to move faster than half speed. Creatures that fail this check fall prone.Characters who remain blinded for a long time grow accustomed to these drawbacks and can overcome some of them.
So you could try to run away and it wouldn't be to hard for a high dex or acrobatic trained character but where are you going to go when you cant see?
Where your memory tells you to go. Back down the corridor, fumble through any doors, carefully down steps, etc etc.
Glad you got out the rules, good to see it is prone and not broken neck game over.
I have had characters blinded and it is no fun. At a high enough level with the right party members, assuming being blinded doesn't lead to a TPK, it's an automatic "camp and regain spells" situation. Without the right party members it's a "drag your sorry ass back to town" sentence.
I might consider house ruling this to have a "one day per level" duration just because that gives some interesting role play options, puts the party in a situation where if they can cure it, they will cure it, but doesn't force a complete retreat back to civilization if you are, say, a month into a wilderness quest...
@AD
I was trying to find a balance with that day/level suggestion. Yeah, as much as I like it AW, the permanent effect (a) really sucks for the poor PC hit with it (screw the NPCs, I don't feel their pain, lol) and (b) seems a leettle overpowered for a 2nd level spell.
But if you drop it even as low as hours/level, it drops to being underpowered, as well as making Remove Blindness/Deafness a spell condemned to live only as a magic item prerequisite.
Days/level, well... it's a serious problem for whoever got hit with it, makes the Remove spell worthwhile... but as you point out, you won't have to hike all the way back to town for the temple if you can't cure it. Just settle in and wait it out, whining like Sheldon from Big Bang Theory until it goes away.
:)
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Like I said above, as a GM I love it as is and use it quite a bit on my parties. PC's already have every advantage over the enemy and knocking them down a few pegs and possibly draining resources from them = gootimes.
I also use curse quite a bit as well. 50% chance to stand around with your thumb up your @$$ = golden.
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Like I said above, as a GM I love it as is and use it quite a bit on my parties. PC's already have every advantage over the enemy and knocking them down a few pegs and possibly draining resources from them = gootimes.
I also use curse quite a bit as well. 50% chance to stand around with your thumb up your @$$ = golden.
And let's not forget that blindness/deafness is dismissible! By whoever cast it...on an enemy. :-/
"Kid, I've been roleplaying from one side of this galaxy to the other since 1978, and if you're the only one having fun in your games, you're missing the point." --paraphrased somewhat from Han Solo, Star Wars: A New Hope
For those that have the idea to make it 1 day/level, I agree, it's brilliant; it's still scary that way, yet it gives the 5th-level clerics in town some revenue streams, and a party can either sit it out for a while, deal with the issue, or not worry too much if they have a 5th-level cleric in the party, who can ask for that spell the next day. "Easy," unless the situation that day would call for other spells entirely, and something that may be vitally important could get shunted aside to get the deaf (or blind; fireballing while not being able to see is scary, yeah) spellcaster back up to snuff; in which case, depending on the situation, a trip back to town could be in the cards. :-/
Or, if players know their GM is the sadistic type, have the 5th-level cleric write up a ton of scrolls in advance, for that, for remove curse, etc., because the gods are controlled by the GM, who can always just refuse to approve that spell request... X-P
I like the 1 day/level suggestion. Still enough of a detriment that there's impetus to get it removed, but not so bad as to bring the adventure to a halt.
Since it's really a combat oriented spell, the day/level usually won't mean much as the victim will be dead and so not suffer from the condition...
As written, I shudder at the prospect of any of my casters in my player's PCs having it, knowing it will be abused. However, knowing it will be abused, I can certainly prepare my enemies to have counters against it, or blindsight/blindsense, etc.
It could be treated like ability damage, granting a new save after 24-hours, at which point it becomes permanent if the roll fails?
Can we agree that the CORE rule-book should remain sacred and leave it at that?
Holy necro batman!!!
Can we agree that the CORE rule-book should remain sacred and leave it at that?
No.
[QUOTE="Otherwhere"
As written, I shudder at the prospect of any of my casters in my player's PCs having it, knowing it will be abused. However, knowing it will be abused, I can certainly prepare my enemies to have counters against it, or blindsight/blindsense, etc.
If you have to plan every encounter to have a way to deal with a particular spell or other ability, that spell or other ability needs a nerfhammerin'.
I'd likely do something like 1 round per level, with a save every round.