Under the heading 'Monster Feats', it says this:
Most of the following feats apply specifically to monsters, although some player characters might qualify for them (particularly Craft Construct).
I'm specifically interested in taking Quicken SLA for the purposes of being able to use Touch of Rage, the 1st level power granted by the Orc Bloodline, on myself as a swift action... theoretically I think I would need to be at least 12th level to take it as a feat, since Quicken SLA requires you to be caster level 10 and the Eldritch Heritage feat gives you an effective caster level of character level -2.
If you meet the prerequisites for the feat, you can take it. The only thing stopping you otherwise is houserules.
Here's the entry for Quicken Spell-Like ability (which Touch of rage is) - can you think of any reason why a character who took the Eldritch Heritage feats wouldn't qualify for it? Touch of Rage is granted to Sorcerers at 1st level, though you have to be 3rd level to qualify for it via the Eldritch Heritage feat, so I assume that its should be considered the equivalent of a 1st level spell.
Quicken Spell-Like Ability (Monster)
This creature can use one of its spell-like abilities with next to no effort.
Prerequisite: Spell-like ability at CL 10th or higher.
Benefit: Choose one of the creature's spell-like abilities, subject to the restrictions described in this feat. The creature can use the chosen spell-like ability as a quickened spell-like ability three times per day (or less, if the ability is normally usable only once or twice per day).
Using a quickened spell-like ability is a swift action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. The creature can perform another action—including the use of another spell-like ability (but not another swift action)—in the same round that it uses a quickened spell-like ability. The creature may use only one quickened spell-like ability per round.
The creature can only select a spell-like ability duplicating a spell with a level less than or equal to 1/2 its caster level (round down) – 4. For a summary, see Table: Quickened Spell-Like Abilities.
A spell-like ability that duplicates a spell with a casting time greater than 1 full round cannot be quickened.
If the spell-like ability is based off an actual spell(I know this sounds silly), then it is very much doable.
To my knowledge, Touch of Rage doesn't mimic any known spell, but it IS a spell-like ability granted to a character as a class feature.
The only thing stopping you is GM discretion. The monster feats are intended for monsters as the name suggests. Even though it isn't particularly hard for PCs to meet the prerequisites for most of them, a lot of GMs disallow them. When I GM, I allow it because a lot of them are just for flavor like the goblin feats. The big sticking point is usually Improved Natural Attack, though using Empower Sp Ability can be pretty obnoxious with the Summoner's Summon Monster Sp ability.
If the spell-like ability is based off an actual spell(I know this sounds silly), then it is very much doable.
To my knowledge, Touch of Rage doesn't mimic any known spell, but it IS a spell-like ability granted to a character as a class feature. This seems significant to me because monsters don't require that their spell-like abilities mimic known spells in order to be quickened because the abilities are inherent to them as monsters... likewise Touch of Rage is inherent to an Orcish Bloodline Sorcerer in much the same way.
The only thing stopping you is GM discretion. The monster feats are intended for monsters as the name suggests. Even though it isn't particularly hard for PCs to meet the prerequisites for most of them, a lot of GMs disallow them. when I GM, I allow it because a lot of them are just for flavor like the goblin feats. The big sticking point is usually Improved Natural Attack, though using Empower Sp Ability can be pretty obnoxious with the Summoner's Summon Monster Sp ability.
Let's say I wanted to play the character in some official capacity, like at a tournament or sanctioned play - what would the ruling there be on its admissability?
I will respectfully disagree:
Ask your DM what material is allowed for hte PC's.
The Bestiary is a DM resource not a player resource. The material therein is not allowed for PC use without specific allowance made by the DM. And it is not unreasonable in the least for him/her to deny it. The feats therein 3were written for monsters and for the DM to use and were written /balanced accordingly and may not be appropriate for your PC to use.
Talk to your DM. Ask him. If they were for PC's to take at will they'd have been in the core book along with the rest of the player feats.
-S
I will respectfully disagree:
Ask your DM what material is allowed for hte PC's.
The Bestiary is a DM resource not a player resource. The material therein is not allowed for PC use without specific allowance made by the DM. And it is not unreasonable in the least for him/her to deny it. The feats therein 3were written for monsters and for the DM to use and were written /balanced accordingly and may not be appropriate for your PC to use.
Talk to your DM. Ask him. If they were for PC's to take at will they'd have been in the core book along with the rest of the player feats.
-S
I think that this is a fair interpretation - except for one thing: to my reading the entry under 'Monster Feats' specifically calls out the fact that PC's qualify for any of these feats that are applicable.
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The only thing stopping you is GM discretion. The monster feats are intended for monsters as the name suggests. Even though it isn't particularly hard for PCs to meet the prerequisites for most of them, a lot of GMs disallow them. when I GM, I allow it because a lot of them are just for flavor like the goblin feats. The big sticking point is usually Improved Natural Attack, though using Empower Sp Ability can be pretty obnoxious with the Summoner's Summon Monster Sp ability.Let's say I wanted to play the character in some official capacity, like at a tournament or sanctioned play - what would the ruling there be on its admissability?
If the tournament or sanctioned play is Pathfinder Society, Bestiary feats are not allowed unless specifically granted by another legal source. (For example, an animal companion can take Improved Natural Armor because the druid class rules say it can.) This is a rule for the Pathfinder Society campaign, which is to say, the GM of the campaign (the PFS campaign coordinator) has exercised his discretion to exclude them.
If the tournament or sanctioned play is Pathfinder Society, Bestiary feats are not allowed unless specifically granted by another legal source. (For example, an animal companion can take Improved Natural Armor because the druid class rules say it can.) This is a rule for the Pathfinder Society campaign, which is to say, the GM of the campaign has exercised his discretion to exclude it.The only thing stopping you is GM discretion. The monster feats are intended for monsters as the name suggests. Even though it isn't particularly hard for PCs to meet the prerequisites for most of them, a lot of GMs disallow them. when I GM, I allow it because a lot of them are just for flavor like the goblin feats. The big sticking point is usually Improved Natural Attack, though using Empower Sp Ability can be pretty obnoxious with the Summoner's Summon Monster Sp ability.Let's say I wanted to play the character in some official capacity, like at a tournament or sanctioned play - what would the ruling there be on its admissability?
Obviously the allowance of those feats can be house-ruled in or out by DM fiat, but in any instance of reasonable dissent between player and DM, I have to think that would serve as the definitive word. Unfortunately.
A player might qualify for them but they are still in the DM book and thus only available of the DM allows it.
I am glad they didn't put "must be a monster" into the Preq line of them.. but the lack doesn't make them any less DM only material.
Just because it is in print doesn't mean it is "PC allowed unless the DM is a jerk and house rules it". Its in the DM book for DM's to use.. unless he decides to let the PC's use it too.
Nothing wrong if he does.. nothing wrong if he doesn't.
-S
PFS is way more limited, and if it is PFS, well, you are out of luck. Outside of these heavily restricted formats, the feats are very much available to PCs. To rule otherwise, as stated, is a houserule.
I really, really want that to be the case, but then again, I'm a little biased. This is for use with an already amazing Paladin and if I can get the Monster feat approved for use it will enable me to make the character the most effective melee combatant I've ever put together in any D&D or Pathfinder format.
The way the line is written permits the feats, and since players need the book to pick creatures for the summon spells that means it is not a "GM book.
In short barring house rules are PFS the feats are legal.
What combination? Is there not a core combination accomplishing such things?
I think I get what you're saying - utilizing only core rules, a handful of characters can reach a '10' when it comes to optimization... if you add in the Beastiary feats, it simply increases the number of character types who can reach that '10', but it doesn't create any 11's or 12's.
Personally, I've never been one to let 'balance' be the end-all be-all of gaming decisions... allowing the Beastiary feats adds variety, depth and fun to the players characters. If someone out there is able to take advantage of those feats to create some sort of uber character then oh well - everyone else shouldn't have their fun reduced because of it, and to be honest, that character likely won't be fun to play for long anyway.
Its a purely GM decision to be honest, some will let you have bestiary feats and some wont, easiest way is to ask them if you can. In general adding bestiary feats increases the average damage of everyone by a large amount.
The GM can change anything. We already know that. The point being made is that if he does not houserule. How do bestiary feats increase damage by a large amount? Most PC's with natural attacks have them at 1d6 or 1d4 so increasing those by using INA is not that much of an increase. Spells can do it, but that is the spell doing the heavy lifting, not the bestiary feats.
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This seems significant to me because monsters don't require that their spell-like abilities mimic known spells in order to be quickened
Quicken SLA
The creature can only select a spell-like ability duplicating a spell with a level less than or equal to 1/2 its caster level (round down) – 4. For a summary, see the table below.And if this is the ability from "Pathfinder Companion: Orcs of Golarion", since Touch of rage doesn't have a spell level, it cannot ever be quickened even if you get around the duplicating a spell issue.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/bloodlines/bloodlines -from-paizo/orc-bloodline
Touch of Rage (Sp): At 1st level, you can touch a creature as a standard action, giving it a morale bonus on attack rolls, damage rolls, and Will saving throws equal to 1/2 your sorcerer level (minimum 1) for 1 round. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier.
Nice, I never noticed the "duplicating a spell" requirement.
Under the heading 'Monster Feats', it says this:
Most of the following feats apply specifically to monsters, although some player characters might qualify for them (particularly Craft Construct).
I'm specifically interested in taking Quicken SLA for the purposes of being able to use Touch of Rage, the 1st level power granted by the Orc Bloodline, on myself as a swift action... theoretically I think I would need to be at least 12th level to take it as a feat, since Quicken SLA requires you to be caster level 10 and the Eldritch Heritage feat gives you an effective caster level of character level -2.
Monster feats can be taken by any creature (including PCs) that qualify for them. It is just that they are feats that generally only monsters qualify for. For example, most PCs don't have spell-like abilities, and wouldn't qualify for the various spell-like metamagic feats; while spell-like abilities are actually very frequent on things like outsiders. Likewise, most PCs aren't going to qualify for feats like Snatch, Awesome Blow, Improved Natural Armor, and so forth; but some could (if you were playing a Giant, someone who could remain magically sized for 24+ hours, or were playing a kobold, lizardfolk, troglodyte, or a class that granted natural armor, you could).
The feat that is probably the easiest to qualify for is Ability Focus. PCs can take Ability Focus for any of their special abilities. For example, a Cleric can take Ability Focus (Channel Energy) to increase the DC by +2. An Assassin could take Ability Focus (Death Attack) to increase the DC by +2. A Monk could take Ability Focus (Stunning Fist) to increase the DC by +2, etc.
I mean summoners can already do it with their current eidolons (just synths cant) and most normal summoners wont drop 3 feats into eldritch heritage just to pump up the eidolon (although some will)
Summoners only need two feats to be able to use Touch of Rage on their Eidolons - Skill Focus:Survival and Eldritch Heritage.
The only 'unbalancing' argument I see is the economy of action argument - but if Wizards can follow up a Quickened Dazing Selective Fireball with an Empowered Selective Fireball by 15th level, what's an extra +10/+10 at 20th?
Nice, I never noticed the "duplicating a spell" requirement.
I made that point earlier, but I honestly don't think that its a requirement per se - what I mean is that its a wording issue, and that the entire point of the requirement is level requirement for abilities that do happen to duplicate a spell.
I obviously haven't gone through all of the creatures in the Beastiary, but let's take PC's out of the equation - would a Monster really be prevented from Quickening a spell-like ability that it inherently has simply because humans don't have the ability equivalent in their spellbooks somewhere?
And that doesn't even get into the fact that RAW, players can research and create new spells on their own.
+10 is still a big number. Fireball is so weak by level 20 that unless you take a whole lot of feats and other precautions it is mostly a nonfactor at level 20.
+10 is still a big number. Fireball is so weak by level 20 that unless you take a whole lot of feats and other precautions it is mostly a nonfactor at level 20.
Wizards get bonus feats to conpensate for those feat requirements... and what we're discussing would require a 3 feat commitment at a minimum (Skill Focus, Eldritch Heritage & Quicken SLA).
Nice, I never noticed the "duplicating a spell" requirement.I made that point earlier, but I honestly don't think that its a requirement per se - what I mean is that its a wording issue, and that the entire point of the requirement is level requirement for abilities that do in fact duplicate a spell.
I obviously haven't gone through all of the creatures in the Beastiary, but let's take PC's out of the equation - would a Monster really be prevented from Quickening a spell-like ability it has simply because humans don't have the ability equivalent in their spellbooks somewhere?
And that doesn't even get into the fact that RAW, players can research and create new spells on their own.
Yes they would be prevented from using the feat on that SLA.
The feat also assumes spells that are official(printed by Paizo). A GM saying some random caster made a spell similar to an SLA just so he can hand it to a monster for Quicken SLA is not something the devs can really control.
Even then some random caster making a spell, and having a monster suddenly be able to use it with with the feat kills verisimilitude for many people.
+10 is still a big number. Fireball is so weak by level 20 that unless you take a whole lot of feats and other precautions it is mostly a nonfactor at level 20.Wizards get bonus feats to conpensate for those feat requirements... and what we're discussing would require a 3 feat commitment at a minimum (Skill Focus, Eldritch Heritage & Quicken SLA).
Wizards are not the only casters that get fireball, and they are not the ones that benefit the most from metamagic feats cast on the fly.
Even with the bonus feats to less the pain the investment is still big. I think Ravingdork has a similar caster posted on the boards. Many found it to resource intensive to justify, IIRC. It did do a lot of damage though assuming SR was passed, saves were failed, the monster did not have resistance or immunity to the element in question...
Nice, I never noticed the "duplicating a spell" requirement.I made that point earlier, but I honestly don't think that its a requirement per se - what I mean is that its a wording issue, and that the entire point of the requirement is level requirement for abilities that do happen to duplicate a spell
The SLA having a spell level is still a requirement to apply QSLA.
All SLA's have levels even if Paizo forgets to print them. They need level to determine the concentration check needed to cast them defensively.
If you meet the prerequisites for the feat, you can take it. The only thing stopping you otherwise is houserules.
You aren't the only one in this thread who has said this, but yours was the easiest one to quote.
I give you:
1. Ability Focus (Bestiary): Choose one of the creature's special attacks. Add +2 to the DC for all saving throws against the special attack on which the creature focuses.
2. Quivering Palm Adept (Dragon Empires Primer): Add +2 to the saving throw DC against your quivering palm attacks.
3. Stunning Fist Adept (Dragon Empires Primer): Add +1 to the saving throw DC against your Stunning Fist attacks. This bonus does not stack with feats that grant you bonuses to the DC for saving throws against your Stunning Fist attacks, such as Mantis Style.
If Ability Focus is meant to be freely available, then Quivering Palm Adept is useful mainly because it will stack with Ability Focus, and Stunning Fist Adept is pointless.
Discuss.
Stunning Fist Adept should not even have been printed IMHO since there are other feats that don't work with it, and those other feats stack with each other.
You could get Ability Focus to add to Quivering Palm Adept, or Mantis Style for a +4 total.
There is also a feat increase the DC for a cleric's channels.
BBT is correct since the rules say that anyone who qualifies can can take the monster feats. Even if someone found rules saying it could not be done at best there would be a conflict of rules.
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All SLA's have levels even if Paizo forgets to print them. They need level to determine the concentration check needed to cast them defensively.
While this is a reasonable assumption, I would like to see an official comment about it.
Bloodlines give a lot of SP abilities that are a borderline mix between a SP and a SU ability, like Touch of Rage or Power of Giants.If you read Power of Giants as a activated power it require 2 round to work. 1 to "cast" the spell Like ability and another to use the size changing ability (and it lack a duration. There is a limit on the number of minutes you can stay in giant form, not to the number of minutes you can have the spell like ability active).
If you read it as a constant power it is always in effect (with a limit to the time you can stay in giant form), can be dispelled, detected and so on even when you aren't in giant form, and you only need a action to grow or return to your original size.
RAI it was meant to depict the activation of an ability that is always available but is not constantly active (and so can't be dispelled or detected when not in use). The problem is that if you follow the rules for spell like abilities literally it will not work that way.
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Nice, I never noticed the "duplicating a spell" requirement.I made that point earlier, but I honestly don't think that its a requirement per se - what I mean is that its a wording issue, and that the entire point of the requirement is level requirement for abilities that do happen to duplicate a spell.
I obviously haven't gone through all of the creatures in the Beastiary, but let's take PC's out of the equation - would a Monster really be prevented from Quickening a spell-like ability that it inherently has simply because humans don't have the ability equivalent in their spellbooks somewhere?
And that doesn't even get into the fact that RAW, players can research and create new spells on their own.
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Benefit: Choose one of the creature's spell-like abilities, subject to the restrictions described in this feat.
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The creature can only select a spell-like ability duplicating a spell with a level less than or equal to 1/2 its caster level (round down) – 4. For a summary, see the table below.
I think that the words "duplicating a spell" are part and parcel of the restrictions described in the feat.
You need a spell like ability that both "duplicate a spell" and "duplicate a spell with a level less than or equal to 1/2 its caster level", not simply one that satisfy the second requirement.|
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Benefit: Choose one of the creature's spell-like abilities, subject to the restrictions described in this feat.
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The creature can only select a spell-like ability duplicating a spell with a level less than or equal to 1/2 its caster level (round down) – 4. For a summary, see the table below.
I think that the words "duplicating a spell" are part and parcel of the restrictions described in the feat.
You need a spell like ability that both "duplicate a spell" and "duplicate a spell with a level less than or equal to 1/2 its caster level", not simply one that satisfy the second requirement.
Well, if the SLA does not "duplicate a spell", it cannot "duplicate a spell with a level less than or equal to 1/2 its caster level". Thus SLA that do not duplicate spells are out of luck. A PC (or NPC) creating a spell which duplicates the SLA will make it legal for use with this feat, but it is GM's fiat (aka houserules).
I dont see any rules section that says PC's can take monster feats, merely that PC's can qualify for them which is true, PC's can attain spell like abilities, flight, and other normally monster centric attributes that would Qualify you for the feats.
However qualifying for a feat doesnt automatically mean you can take it, see animals who can qualify for various feats but cant take them till they have int 3+ (which isnt a feat prereq), so allowing bestiary feats is just as much house ruling as not allowing them.
"Most of the following feats apply specifically to monsters, although some player characters might qualify for them (particularly Craft Construct)."
All this line says is that players might qualify to take bestiary feats, namely craft construct (which from what I recall requires a specific caster level being of course the easiest to qualify for), no where does it say these feats are allowed for players by default.
This is just mincing words. Why say the PC's can qualify for them if they can't take them? I will also add that them being called monster feats does not mean PC's can't take them. The general rule is that a PC can take a feat he qualifies for. So unless a rule states the bestiary feats as an exception to the rule they can be taken. Which feats requires a +3 int? I know animal companions are restricted, but nothing restricts regular animals. At least with the animals companions there is a rule in place. There is nothing stopping PC's. If there is nobody has a quote for it.
All SLA's have levels even if Paizo forgets to print them. They need level to determine the concentration check needed to cast them defensively.While this is a reasonable assumption, I would like to see an official comment about it.
Bloodlines give a lot of SP abilities that are a borderline mix between a SP and a SU ability, like Touch of Rage or Power of Giants.If you read Power of Giants as a activated power it require 2 round to work. 1 to "cast" the spell Like ability and another to use the size changing ability (and it lack a duration. There is a limit on the number of minutes you can stay in giant form, not to the number of minutes you can have the spell like ability active).
If you read it as a constant power it is always in effect (with a limit to the time you can stay in giant form), can be dispelled, detected and so on even when you aren't in giant form, and you only need a action to grow or return to your original size.
RAI it was meant to depict the activation of an ability that is always available but is not constantly active (and so can't be dispelled or detected when not in use). The problem is that if you follow the rules for spell like abilities literally it will not work that way.
It is not an assumption unless someone can show how to provide a concentration DC without a level, and all SLA's do require concentration checks if the caster is on the defensive or if taking damage while casting.
There is not mix. Either it is an SP or an SU.
I need a reference for "Power of Giants". I can't find it so I can't comment on it.
Q: A lot of the class abilities like for sorcerer bloodline '1st level attack powers' are listed as Spell-like abilities, but don't have any specific spell they're based on. The rules for Sp's seem to assume any Sp is based on a normal spell somehow. How do we determine the Sp spell level?
A: (James Jacobs 5/11/10) When one (be it Paizo or whoever) introduces new Spell-like abilities that don't mimic an existing spell, it's the book's responsibility to indicate what spell level that ability is. I argued for a LONG time that we should avoid creating spell-like abilities that don't mimic existing spells for pretty much this exact reason, but I obviously lost that argument. So the best way to estimate what a spell-like ability's level is if it doesn't say in the description and it doesn't mimic a spell is to just look at what level the class gets the ability at and assume it's the highest-level spell that one could cast at that level. Thus: an aberrant sorcerer gains acidic ray as a spell-like ability at 1st level, therefore that SLA is effectively a 1st level spell. The fey sorcerer gains fleeting glance at 9th level, and since the highest-level spell that sorcerer could cast is 4th at 9th level, fleeting glance is equivalent to a 4th level spell. And so on. My personal preference would be, of course, to turn all of those into Supernatural abilities. [Source]
Best i can find for you wraith.
I am saying Paizo dropping the ball by not printing them does not mean they don't have levels which reminds me to start beating that drum again. Since SLA's act like spells in basically all ways they have to have levels. I think I will create the thread right now.
Yes lord wraithstrike.