Nondetection (Spell)


Homebrew and House Rules

Grand Lodge

This spell sucks.

It always has.

Sure, if there's only one PC it's no big deal but any time there's more than one PC -- HELLO -- this spell sucks. What the hell is the point of casting Nondetection on yourself so the BBEG can't easily find you if all the BBEG needs to do is cast his Scry on the dumb-ass full BAB PC and he knows where we are and what we're doing!

So....

Why not make Nondetection like Water Breathing (another 3rd level spell):

Nondetection:
Duration: 2 hours per level -- to be split up evenly between all the recipients.

So a 12th level Wizard can cast it on himself for 24 hours.
OR
cast Nondetection on each of the four PCs for 6 hours.

A 5th level Wizard can put Nondetection on the party of 4 for 2 1/2 hours.


Ummmm, UMC has Communal Nondetection, which, if I'm reading you correctly, does pretty much what you want, just to a lesser extent.

Nondetection, Communal

Level antipaladin 4, sorcerer/wizard 4
Components V, S, M (diamond dust worth 25 gp per target)
Target creatures or objects touched
DESCRIPTION

This spell functions like nondetection, except you divide the duration in 1-hour increments among the creatures or objects touched.

Grand Lodge

Thanks.

I don't think it's worth a 4th level spell slot -- and Nondetection is one hour per level -- not 2 hours per level like my suggestion (based on Water Breathing as a reference).

I guess, if there's an implied question in my OP, it's whether or not Nondetection can be used for anything as a legitimate 3rd level spell.
Cuz unless you're in a Solo adventure -- or if you're casting it to hide some random object instead of the PC party, it sucks.

And using it to hide some object in the game that the PCs are leaving in a hiding place unattended, or even on their person, sucks at 1 hr / lvl. ESPECIALLY for a 3rd lvl spell.


I have seen nondetection used many times over the course of playing d&d/pathfinder. Most of my gaming groups though were very much story-driven. With alot of political intrigue, detective work and the like.

Sure Nondetection isnt going to help much to get your party of 4 people into the evil bad guys lair but it sure will help the Rogue sneak in undetected and recon the place.

Like a lot of spell it isn't one you use when your storming the castle its one you use the day before you storm the castle.


W E Ray wrote:

Thanks.

I don't think it's worth a 4th level spell slot -- and Nondetection is one hour per level -- not 2 hours per level like my suggestion (based on Water Breathing as a reference).

the spell says it works as in Nondetection, meaning that they acknowledged the absence of what you're requesting. the only stipulation is it can only be broken into 1 hour increments.

the designers obviously didn't want it to split among recipients as water breathing or they would have worded it as such.


W E Ray wrote:
What the hell is the point of casting Nondetection on yourself so the BBEG can't easily find you if all the BBEG needs to do is cast his Scry on the dumb-ass full BAB PC and he knows where we are and what we're doing!

I agree with the perceived problem; the spell fails to deliver what it is supposed to do in all practicality.

I ended-up giving the spell a 15 ft. radius (half of that of a private sanctum); enough to cover most of the group's activity without cloaking the whole town. As a 3rd level spell, I thought that it deserved some oomph.

'findel


Don't mistake me, I recognize this is the homebrew forum and you can address whatever perceived problem you wish, but I think it's a mistake to presume that spells are for PCs.

I think it's a fine spells for solo PCs and NPCs alike. Also, there are lots of situations where only the party scout is in a position to be scried, and so it's a good spell even for a party of PCs in that context.

Your grievance seems very player-centric, and so I caution you to think about that when devising a solution, so you can avoid over-correcting.

Grand Lodge

@ Laurefindel,
I like the idea of the radius (1/2 radius of the 5th lvl spell). But I think finding another 3rd level spell to use as reference (Water Breathing, as it happens) is a bit more reliable for game balance. Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum absolutely stops divinations whereas Nondetection allows a Scrier a Caster Level check. And, of course, it's 5th level not 3rd. But I think either Houserule is reasonable.

@ Evil Lincoln,
Well, that's the reason for the Thread, to see if any other presumptions make sense for my games. In almost every game there's a need for the PCs to use Nondetection on themselves so the BBEG can't scry on them. So this spell carries that presumption; it's for PCs.

As for ANY other uses, well, I'm certain there's a once-in-a-hundred time where the PCs will want to cast a Nondetection on a particular Item they get their hands on -- but it doesn't seem to come up.

And as for using it to "hide" the party -- it fails miserably. It sucks.

Are there uses for Nondetection that I'm not thinking of that make it a good 3rd level spell without hiding PCs? Is its use as an Item-Shield really equal to Dispel Magic, Fireball, Gaseous Form, Vampric Touch and Haste???

Freelance,
In your games do you think making Nondetection a 2 hour/ lvl spell that can be applied to more than one creature or object too powerful for just a 3rd level spell?


W E Ray wrote:

@ Laurefindel,

I like the idea of the radius (1/2 radius of the 5th lvl spell). But I think finding another 3rd level spell to use as reference (Water Breathing, as it happens) is a bit more reliable for game balance. Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum absolutely stops divinations whereas Nondetection allows a Scrier a Caster Level check. And, of course, it's 5th level not 3rd. But I think either Houserule is reasonable.

Private Sanctum also has other advantages that nondetection hasn't, and its area is actually a lot bigger (30 feet per level). But using a template from another similar spell of the same level (water breathing in occurrence)is usually a good way to go.

@Evil Lincoln,
I try not to see spells as player-oriented or villain-oriented, but rather weight their relative power in the campaign world as a whole (I dislike spells like at-will create water for similar reasons, even if it doesn't 'break' the PCs). Whether this is a good approach to RPG is another matter. I personally think so but ymmv.

The purpose of nondetection is to protect against scrying. If it doesn't do its job well, the spell would have lost popularity over a more useful one. There are simply too many ways to circumvent nondetection without also protecting your environment that I don't think it would satisfy those using (or creating) the spell, be it PC or NPC. Obviously Private Sanctum is better but comes in two spell levels later. I could elaborate further on usefulness of spell vs the needs of the game and the spell's place in the campaign world, but you get the main idea.

'findel


W E Ray wrote:

Freelance,

In your games do you think making Nondetection a 2 hour/ lvl spell that can be applied to more than one creature or object too powerful for just a 3rd level spell?

In your typical dungeon crawl Nondetection is a bust compared to Fireball, Haste, etc... But alot of spells are situational and depend heavily on the campaign style. Detect Undead is a useless spell in a campaign with no undead in it but in a game centered around undead it becomes even more useful and powerful than higher level spells.

Also I would like to point out that Nondetect does more than just protect from scrying. It protect from Scrying (Clairvoyance, Crystal balls, etc...) from Locate Object and DETECT SPELLS.

Just off the Top of my head that covers; Detect Magic, Detect Evil, Detect Undead, Detect Thoughts, Detect Poison, etc...

Yes those are low level spells but generally those are the ones people rely on. Very few people (in my experience) use a 3rd level spell slot to cast Arcane Sight that they can use once per day and just prepare Detect Magic and assume that will cover most of their "Magic Detection Needs" for the most part it will. So the spell protects you from the bread and butter "Information Gathering" spells.

Again in your typical dungeon crawl not all that useful. However say your trying to prove that an evil baron is behind the plot to kill the king. Well Fireball, Haste, etc... are pretty much useless here. One of the biggest threats the Baron has is not that he can attack the PC and defeat them physically it is that he has the Political power to imprison them have them executed and the like. He also has access to a wizard that serves him and various other resourses. If he finds out the PCs are investigating him they are toast and the gig is up. However slap a Nondetection on the Rogue and he can sneak into the Barons estate without fear of the wizard being able to ID him. Even if his presence is discovered the is far less chance short of capture that anyone will be able to ID him (assuming he uses a mask, invisibility or other procausions are taken).

Divinations are some of the most powerful spells in the game when they are needed. Fireball is awesome but only if you know who your enemy is. If you dont know who your enemy is the Divination spells will make the other schools look pretty useless.

As for what I would change to the spells. My concern with the spell isnt its duration (5 hours minimum) is more than enough for a recon mission or to attend a Grand Ball and not have to worry about having your secrets stolen. Nor am I to concerned with it only effecting one target. Those to me seem like reasonable limitations for its effect. I mean with a longer duration and being able to affect multiple subjects then you end up with a party of UBER-Ninja when it is paired with Invisibility Sphere. My only concern is degree of the protection it offers. Against an equal level caster Nondetection only offers a 75% defense when used on oneself that drops to 50% when used to protect an ally. I just think that sense the spell is so specialized it should provide a more solid defense. Personally if I was going to adjust the spell it would be to increase the Caster Level check DC to penetrate it with divination magic.

Grand Lodge

FreelanceEvilGenius wrote:

Nondetect does more than just protect from scrying. It protect from Scrying (Clairvoyance, Crystal balls, etc...) from Locate Object and DETECT SPELLS.

Just off the Top of my head that covers; Detect Magic, Detect Evil, Detect Undead, Detect Thoughts, Detect Poison, (Detect Good), etc...

Wow.

Excellent point.

I've never thought of using it that way but you're absolutely right.
Serious food for thought before I choose whether to Houserule the spell.

FreelanceEvilGenius wrote:
Divinations are some of the most powerful spells in the game when they are needed.

Yes. This is why I feel the Abjuration should be cooler. Like Dispel Magic (also 3rd Lvl) is cooler.

As a DM I seem to always have a BBEG with the resources to scry (at medium to high levels, at least). And I always find an appropriate time in the particular Campaign for the BBEG to realize the PCs are a threat and get some intel on them.

As a Player I'm always terrified (once we hit medium to high levels) of the BBEG getting around to scrying on us -- probably because as a Player I think like I'm DMing and what I would do if I were the BBEG. Scary.

And there's such a big gap between Nondetection and Mindblank (that Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum, being immobile, doesn't fill) for protections that I think Nondetection should be cooler.

I think maybe the best thing to do is leave Nondetection alone for the reasons you mention and modify the new spell, Communal Nondetection, that Mended Wall informed me of to make it a legitimate 4th level spell.

Thanks guys, very helpful!


Just to add some addition info.

Things that we have done with Nondetection.

In one campaign (Intrigue/Mystery/Storyline driven). Once we realized that we didnt know which NPCs to trust. We elected one party "Face", the bard in this case. The bard did all of our interaction with most of the NPCs. We tried to avoid being seen in public with him and and met secretively. We tried our best to keep Non-detection on him at all times until we could afford a Magical Cloak for him. The wizard used almost all of his 3rd level slots and later even 4th level slots keeping Nondetection on him and occasionally on others that might have been comprimised and targeted by the bad guys. We also used Alter Self and Disguise Self repeatedly. It was a bit of a headache for our DM and required bookkeeping to keep track of which NPC knew about which PC. But in the end it save our asses.

Most of my typical group also play Vampire: The Masquerade and that game thrives on "Information is Power". So even games like Pathfinder and D&D we find our characters attacking enemies not physically but through means like dlackmail, resource sabatage and political manipulation.

Grand Lodge

As a gamer, DM and Player both, I'm always an "Information is POWER" freak.

I max-out Knowledge Skills like you won't believe -- make non-optimized PCs just to max-out those Knowledges, even. My NPCs, at least a few in each Campaign I design, also have tons of access to "intel" and info gathering networks or whatnot.

I'm the Player at the table who's always asking for more info, more detail, more story background -- and planning and considering every option before taking action. Of course, I'm wise and experienced enough to know that that gets on MOST Players' nerves and some Players hate it altogether. So every session I'm running a PC in I have to try to be cognizant of not going too far.

LOL:
A month or so ago in our Return to the Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth campaign we PCs spent the first 4 hours of the session learning all about this Red Dragon attack on a small city near Highfolk (GH). We roleplayed going through the ruined city, talked about what kind of Divinations we could cast to learn precisely what happened, helped some refugees, discussed IN LENGTH the possible motivations, logistics, strategies and such of the Red Dragon and its Demon allies, etc., etc.

One of our other Players, who doesn't enjoy that discussion-atmosphere gaming style, happened to be a few hours late that day (giving us time to really talk this stuff through that we wouldn't usually do cuz he enjoys more action, action, action.
Completely coincidentally, he arrived at the house right as we had finished our 4-hour-long-talking and were heading to the dungeon to kill some demons. He asked, "What did I miss? and we started to explain ALL the stuff we learned and what our theories were and our thoughts and plans and stuff were and he interrupted us and said,

"So basically nothing."

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