Esoteric Magic (Pathfinder Savant) Rules Clarification

[Conner Tist]

Why must it be so hard to find these answers in one thread:

Esoteric Magic:

At each class level beyond 1st, the Pathfinder savant chooses a spell from any class’s spell list and thereafter treats it as if it were on the spell list of his base spellcasting classes; if his base class could not normally cast that spell, it is treated as 1 level higher. The spell’s type (arcane or divine) and save DCs function as normal for his base spellcasting class. All other restrictions of his normal spellcasting class apply. This ability does not allow other spellcasters to prepare, cast, or use spell trigger or spell completion items of esoteric spells (such as a sorcerer using a cure light wounds scroll).

1) The spell selected is added to your spell list. Not your spells known if you're a sorcerer?

2) If your class could not normally cast the spell, the spell is treated at one level higher. Wouldn't this penalty always apply? (Besides the obvious cheese of grabbing your class's normal spells off the Summoner list? Which what's the ruling on that anyway?)

3) The spell's type remains the same. So a wizard in full-plate could cast his esoteric cleric spells, or does that mean a cleric in full-plate doesn't need to worry about spell failure on his esoteric wizard spells?

4) All other casting restrictions apply. Besides a good cleric unable to grab an evil wizard spell, or a bard grabbing a spell w/o verbal components, what restrictions are there?

5) Can anyone else think of any other questions this ability raises?

[The Elusive Jackalope]

A1. Correct. It is added to what you consider to be the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list. You can then choose to learn that spell the next time an appropriately leveled spell known slot becomes available.

A2. Yes, the penalty would always apply to any spell you would reasonably choose. It is worded that way to prevent you from grabbing spells from the spells lists like the bard's or summoner's who will have the same spell as your normal spell list, but at a much lower spell level.

A3. Are you sure the spell's type does not change? The ability says the spell's type functions as normal for his base spellcasting class, which would be arcane if you are an arcane caster, and impose arcane spell failure on spells with somatic components. I had to read the ability several times, and it could be clearer. If the spell does indeed remain its intial type, then arcane spell chance failure would not apply.

A4. Components needed to cast the spell. Possibly arcane spell failure due to armor...?

A5. Not currently.

[Conner Tist]

Thank you for answering some of these questions The Elusive Jackalope ^_^

I'm planning on running a PFS character into this prestige class and I'm trying to make sure I understand everything about that ability

[Viondar]

Conner Tist wrote:

5) Can anyone else think of any other questions this ability raises?

Sorry for the necro, but I thought it better than to create a new thread. Dates don't hurt anyone ;)

Concerning this part of the ability:
(...) if his base class could not normally cast that spell(...)

Note that it doesn't say: "if the spell is not on his base class spell list"

So... Would this include spells that could be bonus spells to a class? Like fireball for a witch (elements patron) or miracle for a psychic (faith discipline)?

If it does, that's nice cherry picking! If it doesn't, I don't really get when not adding a spell level to the spell would ever apply. Unless it's a way to lower the spell level through this ability (when a psychic picks 3rd level possession from the medium spell list.

[Viondar]

Bump question :)

[James Risner]

Viondar wrote:

Bump question :)

A Wizard if 7th level choosing fireball wouldn’t be a 4th level spell.

[Viondar]

Is this an answer to what I'm asking? Because if it is, I don't see it, I'm sorry :/

[James Risner]

Clerics who have domain spells can “normally cast” those domain only spells. They are on their class spell list, just limited to domain slots.

You are asking when the +1 level doesn’t apply.

It doesn’t apply to a wizard choosing fireball despite normally able to cast.
It doesn’t apply to a wizard choosing an expensive spell due to material components.
It doesn’t apply to a cleric choosing a domain only spell to make it a spell they could cast with other slots.
Etc

It isn’t for “its 3rd on my list and 1st on summoner list so this makes it 2nd”.

[Viondar]

So... If I get this right... You mean to say that you can't really choose from which spell list you're taking something. A wizard can't select level 3 possession from the medium spell list...?

But if that's true, how does it work when a wizard selects heal? It's clearly not on his spell list, so +1 applies. But is that 5+1 (adept), 6+1 (cleric and some others), or 7+1 (druid and some others)?

Don't get me wrong. Your interpretation would absolve us of much overpowered cheese. I just wonder how you would see it implemented.

And also, how do you read all that in the ability (which is quite simply put: you select a spell from any spell list)?

Here I am, wondering if it would allow a godless psychic / pathfinder savant access to the miracle spell, amd here you are saying that this same savant can't even pick a level 6 overpowering presence from the mesmerist spell list.

I get a growing feeling that a faq is in order.

[John Murdock]

Viondar wrote:

So... If I get this right... You mean to say that you can't really choose from which spell list you're taking something. A wizard can't select level 3 possession from the medium spell list...?

But if that's true, how does it work when a wizard selects heal? It's clearly not on his spell list, so +1 applies. But is that 5+1 (adept), 6+1 (cleric and some others), or 7+1 (druid and some others)?

Don't get me wrong. Your interpretation would absolve us of much overpowered cheese. I just wonder how you would see it implemented.

And also, how do you read all that in the ability (which is quite simply put: you select a spell from any spell list)?

Here I am, wondering if it would allow a godless psychic / pathfinder savant access to the miracle spell, amd here you are saying that this same savant can't even pick a level 6 overpowering presence from the mesmerist spell list.

I get a growing feeling that a faq is in order.

if the spell is not on his spell list and on others one but at different level i would say he take the lower spell level like the hunter.

''hunter casts divine spells drawn from the druid and ranger spell lists. Only druid spells of 6th level and lower and ranger spells are considered to be part of the hunter spell list. If a spell appears on both the druid and ranger spell lists, the hunter uses the lower of the two spell levels listed for the spell.''

so i would say its pretty ok for the arcane savant to take the lower one like the hunter

[Viondar]

Pretty ok, most certainly!
In the rules, maybe, maybe not.

I'll just create a FAQ thread.

[Plausible Pseudonym]

There's a FAQ on the order you take spells from other lists when determining things like monster SLA equivalent levels. I'm sure they'd apply the same here, so Heal would come off the Cleric list, not the Adept or Witch list.

[Viondar]

Sure, and that wouldn't be that strange :)

this is the faq thread