Can you cast spells into a Wall of Force (Please need all the opinions you guys can muster)


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This question keeps coming up in our game if you can cast a Summon Monster or an Acid Fog spell into a Wall of Force.

Wall of Force says "breath Weapons and spells cannot pass through a wall of force in either direction, although Dimension Door, Teleport, and similar effects can bypass the barrier.

my understand of "pass through a wall of force" is such as a lightning ball or a fireball trying to smash through the wall or someone trying to walk through it. Although if you summoned a monster or another spell that does not leave your finger tips, but instead just appears in the targeted square such as Summon Monster or Acid Fog.

Assuming you can't cast a Summon Monster inside the wall would mean that a wizard couldn't cast a summon monster outside the wall or similar spell.


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When casting a spell one need a line of sight and line of effect to the point where the target of the spell is or where the spell effect will be produced. IIRC Wall of force is invisible allowing for a line of sight but blocks the line of effect preventing magic from passing through. Teleport and dimension door are self-cast spells and thus are not subject to line of effect. There are a few spells that require no line of effect (at least there were such spells in various 3.5 books, I haven't checked which, if any, were updated for Pathfinder, however) and thus can be cast through the wall of force.

The Exchange Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6

Basically, a wall of force breaks line of effect, but not line of sight. So effects that don't require line of effect can work across it. There's not a lot of spells for which that's true.

Here's what the PRD has to say about line of effect and spells:

Line of Effect: A line of effect is a straight, unblocked path that indicates what a spell can affect. A line of effect is canceled by a solid barrier. It's like line of sight for ranged weapons, except that it's not blocked by fog, darkness, and other factors that limit normal sight.

You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect. You must have a clear line of effect to the point of origin of any spell you cast.

A burst, cone, cylinder, or emanation spell affects only an area, creature, or object to which it has line of effect from its origin (a spherical burst's center point, a cone-shaped burst's starting point, a cylinder's circle, or an emanation's point of origin).

An otherwise solid barrier with a hole of at least 1 square foot through it does not block a spell's line of effect. Such an opening means that the 5-foot length of wall containing the hole is no longer considered a barrier for purposes of a spell's line of effect.


Hmmn.

I would very likely allow summon effects to breach the wall of force, on the grounds that teleportation and dimensional door can. When you summon a thing, you're basically teleporting it to you... doesn't seem like a big stretch to teleport it past a wall of force.

Might need some sort of check or save, just on the balance side of things (I'd hate to totally nerf all those wall of force casters). An opposed caster level check between summoner and wall-caster seems like it'd be about right: the winner chooses which side of the wall a summoned critter appears on.

Mind you, I don't think SOUND crosses a wall of force, so you'd be SOL on commanding a summoned creature without some form of telepathy...


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Alitan wrote:
I would very likely allow summon effects to breach the wall of force, on the grounds that teleportation and dimensional door can. When you summon a thing, you're basically teleporting it to you... doesn't seem like a big stretch to teleport it past a wall of force.

If you had a creature at hand, yes you could send it magically to another point. However in case of summon monster you must magically reach to the point where the creature will arrive to summon it there and the wall of force prevents reaching to anything past it in the first place. That seems to be the intent at least.

Quote:
Mind you, I don't think SOUND crosses a wall of force, so you'd be SOL on commanding a summoned creature without some form of telepathy...

Which could be a problem if you intended it to do something else than attack your foes or wanted it to apply specific tactics. Otherwise (or if you summoned creature of low intelligence and limited communication) you will see little difference.


The wall of force doesn't stop anything from teleporting through it; summon monster teleports to the caster. I'm not saying it's strictly RAW, but I don't think it stretches things very far past. If you're in a home game, letting someone summon past a wall of force doesn't really seem like jumping the shark.

You're magically reaching to where it will appear...via teleportation.

I'd let it go, probably with the opposed caster level check I described above.


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Summon Monster I wrote:
This spell summons an extraplanar creature (typically an outsider, elemental, or magical beast native to another plane). It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions. The spell conjures one of the creatures from the 1st Level list on Table: Summon Monster. You choose which kind of creature to summon, and you can choose a different one each time you cast the spell.

The spell states it is conjuring monsters, not teleporting them. As far as I know, Summon Monster magically creates the monsters, they aren't actual creatures that got teleported to an area. Otherwise, when they died they wouldn't vanish, and whomever killed them would gain EXP for defeating them.


Gaze attacks function through a wall of force so it's not blocking line of effect. So my assumption is if you can see through it you can cast a spell in any square inside the wall of force. Also since it's suggesting bypassing it's saying Ethereal can not pass through the wall, but various teleporting effects can pass through the wall. Sounding like it is specifically talking about movement spells and effects instead of other spells that can just appear in one of the squares in the wall.

The Exchange Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6

8 Red Wizards wrote:
Gaze attacks function through a wall of force so it's not blocking line of effect. So my assumption is if you can see through it you can cast a spell in any square inside the wall of force. Also since it's suggesting bypassing it's saying Ethereal can not pass through the wall, but various teleporting effects can pass through the wall. Sounding like it is specifically talking about movement spells and effects instead of other spells that can just appear in one of the squares in the wall.

Gaze attacks don't require line of effect, just line of sight.

As far as summoning monsters goes, to address some other posters.

Repeating my rules citation:
You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect. You must have a clear line of effect to the point of origin of any spell you cast.

Summon spells have "Effect one summoned creature". You need a line of effect to the space in which you create that effect.

You can summon a monster into darkness, you don't need line of sight. You can't summon a monster onto the other side of a closed door, you do need line of effect.


Both Teleport and Summon Monster are Conjuration spells.

Conjuration:

Each conjuration spell belongs to one of five subschools. Conjurations transport creatures from another plane of existence to your plane (calling); create objects or effects on the spot (creation); heal (healing); bring manifestations of objects, creatures, or forms of energy to you (summoning); or transport creatures or objects over great distances (teleportation). Creatures you conjure usually—but not always—obey your commands.

A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.

The creature or object must appear within the spell's range, but it does not have to remain within the range.

Calling: A calling spell transports a creature from another plane to the plane you are on. The spell grants the creature the one-time ability to return to its plane of origin, although the spell may limit the circumstances under which this is possible. Creatures who are called actually die when they are killed; they do not disappear and reform, as do those brought by a summoning spell (see below). The duration of a calling spell is instantaneous, which means that the called creature can't be dispelled.

Creation: A creation spell manipulates matter to create an object or creature in the place the spellcaster designates. If the spell has a duration other than instantaneous, magic holds the creation together, and when the spell ends, the conjured creature or object vanishes without a trace. If the spell has an instantaneous duration, the created object or creature is merely assembled through magic. It lasts indefinitely and does not depend on magic for its existence.

Healing: Certain divine conjurations heal creatures or even bring them back to life.

Summoning: A summoning spell instantly brings a creature or object to a place you designate. When the spell ends or is dispelled, a summoned creature is instantly sent back to where it came from, but a summoned object is not sent back unless the spell description specifically indicates this. A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower, but it is not really dead. It takes 24 hours for the creature to reform, during which time it can't be summoned again.

When the spell that summoned a creature ends and the creature disappears, all the spells it has cast expire. A summoned creature cannot use any innate summoning abilities it may have.

Teleportation: A teleportation spell transports one or more creatures or objects a great distance. The most powerful of these spells can cross planar boundaries. Unlike summoning spells, the transportation is (unless otherwise noted) one-way and not dispellable.

Teleportation is instantaneous travel through the Astral Plane. Anything that blocks astral travel also blocks teleportation.

Now when you read the Summoning section it says the creature is brought from another place, so I'm leaning towards it can. But with that being said many other spells can be argued that they create an effect at that point rather than from then to the point.


8 Red Wizards wrote:
Gaze attacks function through a wall of force so it's not blocking line of effect. So my assumption is if you can see through it you can cast a spell in any square inside the wall of force. Also since it's suggesting bypassing it's saying Ethereal can not pass through the wall, but various teleporting effects can pass through the wall. Sounding like it is specifically talking about movement spells and effects instead of other spells that can just appear in one of the squares in the wall.

This is spurious reasoning. Because gaze attacks can pass through, you assume everything can pass through?

Wall of Force wrote:
Breath weapons and spells cannot pass through a wall of force in either direction, although dimension door, teleport, and similar effects can bypass the barrier. It blocks ethereal creatures as well as material ones (though ethereal creatures can usually circumvent the wall by going around it, through material floors and ceilings). Gaze attacks can operate through a wall of force.

Right there it says breath weapons and spells cannot pass through a wall of force in either direction. That is very explicit. It says effects similar to teleport can work - this does not mean all spells of the same school, just spells which create an effect similar to teleport. A summon spell is not similar to a teleport spell, because it is not teleporting anything from anywhere - it is creating a representation of an outsider which then houses the soul of the outsider temporarily. The outsider's actual body remains on its own plain. I think you'd be pretty safe saying any spell of the conjuration school and the teleportation sub-school will work, but nothing else (aside from gaze attacks).

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Alitan wrote:

Hmmn.

I would very likely allow summon effects to breach the wall of force, on the grounds that teleportation and dimensional door can. When you summon a thing, you're basically teleporting it to you... doesn't seem like a big stretch to teleport it past a wall of force.

Might need some sort of check or save, just on the balance side of things (I'd hate to totally nerf all those wall of force casters). An opposed caster level check between summoner and wall-caster seems like it'd be about right: the winner chooses which side of the wall a summoned critter appears on.

Mind you, I don't think SOUND crosses a wall of force, so you'd be SOL on commanding a summoned creature without some form of telepathy...

You can do what you want in your home game but it will change game balance.

You are giving a spell and a spell combo "superpowers".

- I have Wall of force and summoning spells? I am immune to attacks from warrior type characters and most spells while I can spam monsters with impunity.
- You use wall of force to defend yourself but I have summon monsters? I can freely attack you while you are still hampered by the wall.
- Monsters with summoning abilities would be enhanced. And there are several of them.


Diego Rossi wrote:


You can do what you want in your home game but it will change game balance.
You are giving a spell and a spell combo "superpowers".

- I have Wall of force and summoning spells? I am immune to attacks from warrior type characters and most spells while I can spam monsters with impunity.
- You use wall of force to defend yourself but I have summon monsters? I can freely attack you while you are still hampered by the wall.
- Monsters with summoning abilities would be enhanced. And there are several of them.

... Diego, if you look up just a couple of posts earlier, you'll see my "in a home game" statement.

I'm not promoting a rush to perforate wall of force, just observing that (a) teleport effects pierce wall of force and (b) summoning monsters not only resembles teleport, but is in the same school as teleport. A=\=B, but A resembles B closely enough to be confused in a line-up.

Yeah, it would alter game balance, but not in a huge, game-breaking way, imo.

OP asked for opinions, I gave mine.


wall of force is what 5th or 6th level? By that point you have a wide array of summons anyway, Summon a Devil most of them have teleport, or summon an earth elemental and have it burrow under the wall. Reading about points, and that line specifically calling out teleport or similar magic, Seems clear that no you can't summon through it.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

"You can do what you want in your home game" recognize that you are speaking about your home game.

Then the post address why I feel it is a bad idea.

Ad the five different subschools of Conjuration have very different rules.

Again, "you can do what you want in your home game" but treating a spell of the Calling subschools like it was a Summoning subschools spell or a Teleportation subschools spell and so on will greatly change the whole Conjuration school power level.


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@ donaldsangry: Summoned monsters can't use teleportation effects.

@ some other people: The wall of force is invisible, but it is still there, and you can no more cast through it than you could a wall made of stone.

Gaze works because it is a sight based effect, and wall of force does not hinder sight.


I'm having a problem finding where it says that effects can not be cast into someone else's "Wall of Force" I see where it says you "breathe weapon and spells can't pass through it" but a breathe weapon originates from the monsters mouth and couldn't pass through the wall because the wall would block it, such is the same for a fireball, but if the caster inside were to cast a summon monster or the caster outside was to cast a hold person on the target inside those effects aren't passing through the wall they would circumvent it.

I guess what I really need to find is where it says "effects can't pass through the wall" since the effect of a summon monster would not be leaving the casters body, but instead just appearing in a square inside the field.

Summon Monsters "Appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn."

I can't find anywhere to suggest you can't cast a spell into a square inside the wall of force, and that is the part that I need the most to support any reason that you can't put a spell inside the wall of force as long as it wouldn't touch the wall.

Edit: Under Effects p214 says
Some spells create or summon things rather than affecting things that are already present.
You must designate the location where these things are to appear, either by seeing it or defining it. Range determines how far away an effect can appear, but it the effect is mobile, appears it can move regardless of the spell's range.

Although I would still like to see where it talks about spells effects can't pass. So far all spells are describing is line of side only. A wall of force would not be an overly effective spell if the person inside it couldn't perform some of there spell casting ability.

Edit Number 2: I finally found the passage for Line of Effect thank you

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Wall of Force breaks line of effect. Having line of sight is insufficient.


i would allow summon spells, the spell isn't affecting/targetting the space, it's affecting the summoned creature, who isn't subject to the wall of force until they are summoned, and by then it's too late, they are in the space.

Liberty's Edge

This rule has come up several times in my group's custom games. The original ruling was to allow casting through a wall of force. This led to an encounter with a caster standing inside a resilient sphere conjuring pits and various effects while safe inside his sphere. The melee had to resort to the "wait it out" method and hid out of line of sight from the caster. The DM hand-waved the rest of the encounter to avoid the slow circling dance which was boring to everyone (including the caster who, rightfully, was refusing to use less than optimal tactics).

The original ruling was things such as summoning, conjuring, etc. created effects originating at a given point and ignored the line of effect restriction of the wall.

The revised ruling is only teleportation effects bypass the wall and even these effects cannot target through a wall of force. So, you could teleport yourself or a creature on the same side of the wall as you are, but could not target a creature on the opposite side of the wall. This still leaves some nice combos available (especially if the caster has Dimensional Agility), but limits the combos to a reasonable extent.

The revised ruling is much more restrictive and is based on our group testing the less restrictive ruling out a few times.

EDIT:
Edited to add emphasis on the ruling we use.


Nipin wrote:


The revised ruling is only teleportation effects bypass the wall and even these effects cannot target through a wall of force. So, you could teleport yourself or a creature on the same side of the wall as you are, but could not target a creature on the opposite side of the wall.

Where did you find this revised Ruling I didn't see it in any of the erratas?

Liberty's Edge

8 Red Wizards wrote:
Nipin wrote:


The revised ruling is only teleportation effects bypass the wall and even these effects cannot target through a wall of force. So, you could teleport yourself or a creature on the same side of the wall as you are, but could not target a creature on the opposite side of the wall.

Where did you find this revised Ruling I didn't see it in any of the erratas?

It is our house rule.


wraithstrike wrote:
@ donaldsangry: Summoned monsters can't use teleportation effects.

Can I get a quote on that?


Quandary wrote:
i would allow summon spells, the spell isn't affecting/targetting the space, it's affecting the summoned creature, who isn't subject to the wall of force until they are summoned, and by then it's too late, they are in the space.

Which happens to be a location that is invalid for them to be in because the line of effect to it was broken by the wall of force, the line of effect was a required check when the spell was cast as per the rules governing spell mechanics.

Seeing as the wall is invisible it is entirely possible that it could be in effect, an opposing caster unknowingly could cast a summon into a protected area and it fizzle. I would then allow the caster, who had the spell fizzle, a spellcraft roll to realize what happened.


Summon Monster:
A summoned monster cannot summon or otherwise conjure another creature, nor can it use any teleportation or planar travel abilities. Creatures cannot be summoned into an environment that cannot support them. Creatures summoned using this spell cannot use spells or spell-like abilities that duplicate spells with expensive material components (such as wish).


Skylancer4 wrote:
Quandary wrote:
i would allow summon spells, the spell isn't affecting/targetting the space, it's affecting the summoned creature, who isn't subject to the wall of force until they are summoned, and by then it's too late, they are in the space.
Which happens to be a location that is invalid for them to be in because the line of effect to it was broken by the wall of force, the line of effect was a required check when the spell was cast as per the rules governing spell mechanics.

my point is that there is no spell effect targetting or effecting that area.... the effect is 1 creature (to be summoned, in whatever location or plane it was in BEFORE the spell effect occurs)

the relevant line of effect is from the caster, directly off plane to wherever the creature is BEFORE it is summoned to where the caster designates.
once there (within/behind wall of force) spells cast on the summoned creature will have line of effect problems,
but UNTIL IT IS THERE (SUMMONED), line of effect isn't an issue.


Quandary wrote:

Summon Monster:

A summoned monster cannot summon or otherwise conjure another creature, nor can it use any teleportation or planar travel abilities. Creatures cannot be summoned into an environment that cannot support them. Creatures summoned using this spell cannot use spells or spell-like abilities that duplicate spells with expensive material components (such as wish).

Thanks. :)


no prob ;-)
wierdly, in another 3.x-editing-ism,
the no summoning part is part of the summoning SCHOOL rules,
but those don't mention any teleport/planar travak restriction, thats only in the spell.
(it should all be in the school for consistency's sake iMHO... whether or not the spell reiterates it)

Dark Archive

The easy answer is this:

Quote:

Teleport

School conjuration (teleportation); Level sorcerer/wizard 5
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V
Range personal and touch
Target you and touched objects or other touched willing creatures
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw none and Will negates (object); Spell Resistance no and yes (object)

and

Quote:

Summon Monster I

School conjuration (summoning) [see text]; Level bard 1, cleric 1, sorcerer/wizard 1
Casting Time 1 round
Components V, S, F/DF (a tiny bag and a small candle)
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect one summoned creature
Duration 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no

The "line of effect" is only needed for the range listed in the spell. Teleport's range is personal or touch, even if the final destination is much farther away. No line of effect is ever needed for the destination for teleport.

Summon monster has a range of "close". you have to have a line of effect for where you want the summon to appear. Now, once they are here, there is no line of effect for where they want to go. If they can get around the wall, they are welcome to get there. Or you can touch one of them and teleport them to the other side yourself.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

@Hapler

PRD wrote:


A summoned monster cannot summon or otherwise conjure another creature, nor can it use any teleportation or planar travel abilities.

It can be read both way, but I would rule that a summoned creature can't benefit from teleport even when cast by another creature.

My reading of the spell is that the Summoned creature is similar to a astral projection of the creature summoned. Changing plane, even for the briefest time, like with a teleportation spell, will break the spell.

I would disallow blinking too, as the blinking creature would go back an forth between the material plane and the ethereal.


Quandary wrote:
Skylancer4 wrote:
Quandary wrote:
i would allow summon spells, the spell isn't affecting/targetting the space, it's affecting the summoned creature, who isn't subject to the wall of force until they are summoned, and by then it's too late, they are in the space.
Which happens to be a location that is invalid for them to be in because the line of effect to it was broken by the wall of force, the line of effect was a required check when the spell was cast as per the rules governing spell mechanics.

my point is that there is no spell effect targetting or effecting that area.... the effect is 1 creature (to be summoned, in whatever location or plane it was in BEFORE the spell effect occurs)

the relevant line of effect is from the caster, directly off plane to wherever the creature is BEFORE it is summoned to where the caster designates.
once there (within/behind wall of force) spells cast on the summoned creature will have line of effect problems,
but UNTIL IT IS THERE (SUMMONED), line of effect isn't an issue.

Read the spell block that someone was kind enough to post a few up, see where it says range? That triggers line of effect from the spell mechanics. Caster-type casts spell, line of effect is blocked as they want the location to be on the other side of the wall. Caster just wasted a spell as it fizzles due to line of effect and targeted location of where they wanted the summoned creature to pop up being invalid.

The Exchange Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6

Quandary wrote:

my point is that there is no spell effect targetting or effecting that area.... the effect is 1 creature (to be summoned, in whatever location or plane it was in BEFORE the spell effect occurs)

the relevant line of effect is from the caster, directly off plane to wherever the creature is BEFORE it is summoned to where the caster designates.
once there (within/behind wall of force) spells cast on the summoned creature will have line of effect problems,
but UNTIL IT IS THERE (SUMMONED), line of effect isn't an issue.

Go back near the top of the thread and reread the casting and line of effect rules. You can't create an effect in an area to which you do not have line of effect. And summoning spells create an effect (the summoned monster).

In fact, here's the relevant line a third time:
You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect. You must have a clear line of effect to the point of origin of any spell you cast.

Dark Archive

Diego Rossi wrote:

@Hapler

PRD wrote:


A summoned monster cannot summon or otherwise conjure another creature, nor can it use any teleportation or planar travel abilities.

It can be read both way, but I would rule that a summoned creature can't benefit from teleport even when cast by another creature.

My reading of the spell is that the Summoned creature is similar to a astral projection of the creature summoned. Changing plane, even for the briefest time, like with a teleportation spell, will break the spell.

I would disallow blinking too, as the blinking creature would go back an forth between the material plane and the ethereal.

I agree that it can be fuzzy. Personally I read that line as the summon cannot use any teleportation or planar travel abilities that it has. If the caster wants to use more spell slots and rounds, I feel that they can teleport a summons.


Seems pretty cut and dried IMHO. Line of effect is blocked so no summoning across the wall.


You can summon through a wall of force, or plane of glass, or anything else you can see through. You need LOS not Line of effect. That's actually the entire purpose of differentiating LOS vs LOE.

You can't fire a scorching ray (or any other ray) across a wall of force, thus demonstrating the Line of Effect issue.

You can summon monster I across the wall because Line of sight isnt blocked and their is no reason you need line of effect. The monster isnt appearing in your square and crossing the distance to it.s destination. It's appearing at its destination.

That's one of the main uses of resilent sphere.

This is an old old discussion. I think it was cleared up in the ask james jacobs thread, but honestly I dont really remember where it was.

I fail to understand how this is a difficult concept.

Dark Archive

Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:

You can summon through a wall of force, or plane of glass, or anything else you can see through. You need LOS not Line of effect. That's actually the entire purpose of differentiating LOS vs LOE.

You can't fire a scorching ray (or any other ray) across a wall of force, thus demonstrating the Line of Effect issue.

You can summon monster I across the wall because Line of sight isnt blocked and their is no reason you need line of effect. The monster isnt appearing in your square and crossing the distance to it.s destination. It's appearing at its destination.

That's one of the main uses of resilent sphere.

This is an old old discussion. I think it was cleared up in the ask james jacobs thread, but honestly I dont really remember where it was.

I fail to understand how this is a difficult concept.

If that is so, there is some errata to create.

AS it stands, from the magic section of the PRD on Line of Effect:

Quote:

Line of Effect: A line of effect is a straight, unblocked path that indicates what a spell can affect. A line of effect is canceled by a solid barrier. It's like line of sight for ranged weapons, except that it's not blocked by fog, darkness, and other factors that limit normal sight.

You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect. You must have a clear line of effect to the point of origin of any spell you cast.

A burst, cone, cylinder, or emanation spell affects only an area, creature, or object to which it has line of effect from its origin (a spherical burst's center point, a cone-shaped burst's starting point, a cylinder's circle, or an emanation's point of origin).

An otherwise solid barrier with a hole of at least 1 square foot through it does not block a spell's line of effect. Such an opening means that the 5-foot length of wall containing the hole is no longer considered a barrier for purposes of a spell's line of effect.

I bolded the sections that I think are important.

First, line if effect is for magic, line of sight is for ranged weapons. Nothing in the magic section says that you need line of sight for magic to happen, just line of effect.

The second part: "You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect." States that to create an effect in a space (aka summon a monster there), you need clear line of effect.


Lets say if a wizard 1 was standing behind a glass door, and wizard 2 tried to cast a summon monster behind the glass door would it block line of effect since the glass was in the way?

Would Wizard 2 have to throw a rock at Wizard 1's glass door to get his summon past the glass door.


The glass would block line of effect so no summoning on the other side.


Happler wrote:
Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:

You can summon through a wall of force, or plane of glass, or anything else you can see through. You need LOS not Line of effect. That's actually the entire purpose of differentiating LOS vs LOE.

You can't fire a scorching ray (or any other ray) across a wall of force, thus demonstrating the Line of Effect issue.

You can summon monster I across the wall because Line of sight isnt blocked and their is no reason you need line of effect. The monster isnt appearing in your square and crossing the distance to it.s destination. It's appearing at its destination.

That's one of the main uses of resilent sphere.

This is an old old discussion. I think it was cleared up in the ask james jacobs thread, but honestly I dont really remember where it was.

I fail to understand how this is a difficult concept.

If that is so, there is some errata to create.

AS it stands, from the magic section of the PRD on Line of Effect:

Quote:

Line of Effect: A line of effect is a straight, unblocked path that indicates what a spell can affect. A line of effect is canceled by a solid barrier. It's like line of sight for ranged weapons, except that it's not blocked by fog, darkness, and other factors that limit normal sight.

You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect. You must have a clear line of effect to the point of origin of any spell you cast.

A burst, cone, cylinder, or emanation spell affects only an area, creature, or object to which it has line of effect from its origin (a spherical burst's center point, a cone-shaped burst's starting point, a cylinder's circle, or an emanation's point of origin).

An otherwise solid barrier with a hole of at least 1 square foot through it does not block a spell's line of effect. Such an opening means that the 5-foot length of wall containing the hole is no longer considered a barrier for purposes of a spell's line of

...

You may be correct by RAW as I am not really sure. However that's assanine, so in my games we'll be ignoring it in favor of basic logic. (I know it's magic, but still)

Dark Archive

8 Red Wizards wrote:

Lets say if a wizard 1 was standing behind a glass door, and wizard 2 tried to cast a summon monster behind the glass door would it block line of effect since the glass was in the way?

Would Wizard 2 have to throw a rock at Wizard 1's glass door to get his summon past the glass door.

By the book (Per-RAW that is) a solid glass door would block line of effect.

Dark Archive

Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:
You may be correct by RAW as I am not really sure. However that's assanine, so in my games we'll be ignoring it in favor of basic logic. (I know it's magic, but still)

So, the answer to a caster hiding in a resilient sphere is to fill the sphere with a cloudkill, acid fog, create water or some other spell that will fill the sphere?

edit to add: A 7' diameter sphere would contain about 1343 gallons, so a lot of create water would be needed.


Happler wrote:
Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:
You may be correct by RAW as I am not really sure. However that's assanine, so in my games we'll be ignoring it in favor of basic logic. (I know it's magic, but still)

So, the answer to a caster hiding in a resilient sphere is to fill the sphere with a cloudkill, acid fog, create water or some other spell that will fill the sphere?

Yes. Exactly. ;-)

Edit: or a balor. ;-0

Liberty's Edge

I would caution against any interpretation that allows a summons or other potentially offensive spells to pass through a wall of force. It is far too easy to use the relatively impervious base provided by an Emergency Force Sphere to then harass and destroy a party that has few options to counter-attack the crouching caster protected by the Force Sphere. It's just too powerful if you allow those spells to pass throught the force field. Don't do it.


Steel_Wind wrote:

I would caution against any interpretation that allows a summons or other potentially offensive spells to pass through a wall of force. It is far too easy to use the relatively impervious base provided by an Emergency Force Sphere to then harass and destroy a party that has few options to counter-attack the crouching caster protected by the Force Sphere. It's just too powerful if you allow those spells to pass throught the force field. Don't do it.

Such as leaving the area for 1 min per caster level when the sphere expires?


Leaving might not be a good idea. The caster might just pack up his things and leave if you leave him alone. He now knows your tactics and can adjust accordingly.


wraithstrike wrote:
Leaving might not be a good idea. The caster might just pack up his things and leave if you leave him alone. He now knows your tactics and can adjust accordingly.

Is the reverse not true? Can the party not know caster tactics and plan accordingly?

Also, you don't have to leave the area, just leave his spell range. I bet you the party archer with a longbow can be well out of the casters range and still hit him.

"But his summoned monsters will come for us!"

So? Pick them off one at a time as they come charging at you. How many summoned monsters do you think he has prepared today? Also, what's the range they can travel from the caster?

Edit: or have your caster fill his sphere with water (a cantrip), your own summoned monsters, or poison gas, or a whole lot of other options.


I did some research. Apparently you can't cast across a wall of force by RAW. I still think it's crap, but I can work with that. Because If I can't then they can't. The Resilient sphere has a reflex save to trap someone else in it. THen they're effectively screwed. ;-) I can work with that.


What about Volcanic Storm? Would that bypass a Wall of Force?

I know you can't cast across a Wall of Force, but it's not a target origin. Would you be able to cast it still?

Grand Lodge

Merlin_47 wrote:
What about Volcanic Storm? Would that bypass a Wall of Force?

Volcanic Storm

No, in all relevant ways it's similar to a fireball.


Okay then....my players are going to throw a fit and not accept that because they see it differently...but thank you.

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