Can you cast spells into a Wall of Force (Please need all the opinions you guys can muster)


Rules Questions

51 to 84 of 84 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
Grand Lodge

They can throw fits - I won't be there to see it. What's their argument?

Do they think the spell can pass through the wall and create its effect beyond? Half a dozen people in this thread have quoted exact text and page numbers to show it can't.

Do they think the volcanic cloud can pass through the wall? Why do they think that?


I think alot of people dont really understand how targeting works. in our Skull and shackles game the sorcerer's player had a fit when it was pointed out a pane of glass stopped one of his spells.

Really, spells need special exceptions or rules changes to allow them to bypass line of effect, or interact without line of sight.

Both lightning bolt and fireball have these for example.

Err edit to say to get past a pane of glass not a wall of force


I'd allow someone to summon to any space they can see including one on the other side of a Wall of Force as long as one could trace an uninterrupted path to that space of any length within the same plane. So into or out of a Resilient Sphere/Emergency Forcefield or Cube of Force/Forcecube no, but into a Forcecage or "around" or "over" a Wall of Force yes. Same for spread effects or the various Fogs and Clouds except then the length of the path becomes important as well as potentially the choice of where the point of origin of the effect was placed (since that would effect how long the potential path could be)

That would mean a Fireball, Glitterdust or Acid Fog could potentially 'go around' a Wall of Force depending on terrain and placement of the effects but a Lightning Bolt or Scorching Ray would strike the Wall of Force. For the various burst effects it would depend on where the point of origin was placed. Something like a Sunburst and its 80ft radius burst could, other terrain permitting, readily have its point of origin placed so as to effect a target on the other side of a Wall of Force from the caster where the caster has a LOE to the point of origin, the point of origin readily has LOE to the target but the caster has no LOE to the target.

A Lightning Bolt also has the rather limited potential to destroy and continue on thru a Wall of Force since the Wall in PF now has Hardness and Hit Points but given that the Wall could already be damaged and or the sort of maximizing a Arcane blaster might manage maybe they can blow thru it ...


You need LoE, so no, no summoning.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies, Representative - D20 Hobbies

Merlin_47 wrote:
Okay then....my players are going to throw a fit and not accept that because they see it differently...but thank you.

The good news is that if you are GM you can just say "Well fine I'm rule zero it doesn't work like you think, can we move on?"

Kayerloth wrote:
"around" or "over" a Wall of Force yes.

I take it that you understand this isn't the way the rules work? But I guess it is a fine house rule?


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I don't get why they'd throw a fit. This is actually a pretty reasonable rule, and I think the alternative rule is worse.


I think he was refering to a spell with a speead effect.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Merlin_47 wrote:

What about Volcanic Storm? Would that bypass a Wall of Force?

I know you can't cast across a Wall of Force, but it's not a target origin. Would you be able to cast it still?

Depend on the height of the wall of force, the distance from the caster of the Wall of force and the point in which he cast the spell and the angle that form.

The Area of effect of the spell go down from the point in which youc ast t: "Chunks of hot volcanic rock and clumps of ash pound down when this spell is cast," and " For the remaining duration of the spell, heavy ash rains down in the area."

Essentially you can draw a straight line from the caster to the point in which the top of the spell appear and the spell will affect the area below it for a height of 40'.
If that straight line never touch the area of the Wall of force the spell can be cast. If it touch it it can't be cast.

Edit: further material, from the Magic section of the CRB:

PRD wrote:
When casting a cylinder-shaped spell, you select the spell's point of origin. This point is the center of a horizontal circle, and the spell shoots down from the circle, filling a cylinder. A cylinder-shaped spell ignores any obstructions within its area.

So it is very clear that you need Line of Effect only to the point of origin of the spell.

(Why this spell isn't in the magus list? A class devoted to the damaging spells especially evocation spells like this one, and they don't get it. Happen very often. After gifting the summoner with whatever spell he could want in his spell list the Developers have decided to punish the magus for that. Annoying.)

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Kayerloth wrote:

I'd allow someone to summon to any space they can see including one on the other side of a Wall of Force as long as one could trace an uninterrupted path to that space of any length within the same plane. So into or out of a Resilient Sphere/Emergency Forcefield or Cube of Force/Forcecube no, but into a Forcecage or "around" or "over" a Wall of Force yes. Same for spread effects or the various Fogs and Clouds except then the length of the path becomes important as well as potentially the choice of where the point of origin of the effect was placed (since that would effect how long the potential path could be)

The Line of Effect is a straight line from the caster to the point where the spell is cast, with a length defined by the range of the spell.

Mojorat wrote:
I think he was refering to a spell with a spread effect.

Seeing the part of his post that I cited, I don't think so.

Grand Lodge

Diego Rossi wrote:

Essentially you can draw a straight line from the caster to the point in which the top of the spell appear and the spell will affect the area below it for a height of 40'.

If that straight line never touch the area of the Wall of force the spell can be cast. If it touch it it can't be cast.

True - if the wall of force is less than 40 feet high and doesn't contact a ceiling, the volcanic storm's line of effect can pass above it. This is pretty vulnerable to any number of attacks, starting with summoned creatures that can fly.


8 Red Wizards wrote:
This question keeps coming up in our game if you can cast a Summon Monster or an Acid Fog spell into a Wall of Force.

Don't think a Wall of Force has enough width for a creature to fit in it.


Okay....allow me to tackle each point in turn.

First, the wall touched floor to ceiling; so, if it had no ceiling to touch, the spell could have been cast over it; am I understanding that right?

Second, they are seeing it as the spell must originate from the caster, and therefore, is able to be cast through the wall.

Third, they don't believe in rule zero; that's a rule I haven't been able to enforce since we got 3rd/Pathfinder. When I try to, they want a why, other than I said so. If I can't, they gripe about that, saying that's a poor reason.


It could have been if the caster had a direct, straight line of effect to from the caster's location to the center of the cylinder. The only impact would be the parts of the cylinder which clear the wall of force. If your players need a why it's been pretty well established throughout this thread; a caster needs a straight line of effect, in addition to line of sight to generate a spell result.


Unfortunately, they don't see it that way; they're hung up on "if it doesn't originate from you, you can do it regardless".

So, if the area they targeted was say.....30 feet away on the opposite side from the wall, it could go through?

But, in the case I'm talking about, the wall in this example was touching floor to ceiling. And if it's touching floor to ceiling, it can't be cast through, right?


Merlin_47 wrote:

Unfortunately, they don't see it that way; they're hung up on "if it doesn't originate from you, you can do it regardless".

So, if the area they targeted was say.....30 feet away on the opposite side from the wall, it could go through?

But, in the case I'm talking about, the wall in this example was touching floor to ceiling. And if it's touching floor to ceiling, it can't be cast through, right?

Just because your players don't understand the rules or how the function isn't your fault. You've come here, for an explanation of what happens and how it functions. You've received that information.

The answer is, most spells require line of effect. Line of effect is a straight line between you and the target square. If the line intersects a solid object then the square cannot be targeted. Whether the interposing object is a wall of stone, or a wall of force it works this way.

Now, spells that do not require line of effect can function through a wall of force, but there aren't many (if any).


Okay....just so there can be no further confusion on my part (can't guarantee my players), the spell needs a line of effect. The caster in question wanted to cast the spell at an area that affected the other side of the wall, at a place that covered an area that was 30 feet away from the Wall of Force.

From how I'm understanding it, is that the spell cannot work. Is that correct?

A second part to this question is this - if the Wall had not been touching a ceiling, could it have worked?


Draw a line from caster gp target. If there isn't at least a 1ft square gap any objects (not creatures) block it. Its that simple.


Okay....so the wall stops it. That is understood; but now the one last question that's going to be asked to me relentlessly - why?

I understand RAW....but that's not good enough for the players. And do remember - I don't have the benefit of Rule Zero anymore. I lost that after 2nd Edition. They need to have a why. And because they interpret the spell as written differently.


There are two things at play when you cast a spell. Line of sight and line of effect. Unless a spell says otherwise you need both.

So your wizard is standing with a wall of stone between himsel and.a monster. He cant target the monster why? He can't see it doesn't have line of effect.

Change wall of stone to force. Now he can see thebtargrt but line of effect is blocked. Now change wall of force to glass window.

Really read the rules the section ontargeting tells you explicitly. There must be a direct line beteween you and the target with at least a 1ft square opening.

Always check the targeting line of the spell.


So...the wizard casts Wall of Force; the wall is about 20 - 25 feet away from him. The druid (my player) wants to cast the Volcanic spell that I asked about earlier.

The druid is about 10 - 15 feet away from the Wall of Force; because he doesn't have a clear line of effect, he can't cast it, correct?

I'm sorry for asking this repeatedly; again, I understand it. My players all interpret it differently and one player hates asking the forums because he "doesn't like how they aren't clear" or "they're just their own interpretations". In other words, they disagree with his interpretation.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Merlin_47 wrote:

So...the wizard casts Wall of Force; the wall is about 20 - 25 feet away from him. The druid (my player) wants to cast the Volcanic spell that I asked about earlier.

The druid is about 10 - 15 feet away from the Wall of Force; because he doesn't have a clear line of effect, he can't cast it, correct?

I'm sorry for asking this repeatedly; again, I understand it. My players all interpret it differently and one player hates asking the forums because he "doesn't like how they aren't clear" or "they're just their own interpretations". In other words, they disagree with his interpretation.

That is correct. Forums be dammed. it's the GM who runs their games not the bloody forum.. Basically a wall of force is like any other wall, it blocks line of effect.You can't cast fireball through it, or any other spell whose range lies beyond the wall.


It doesn't matter how close or far he is from the wall.
First can the Druid even see it. Without see invisible he can't sww a wall of force.

Pick a spot on the map draw a line to it is the wall inthe way? Yes then the wall blocks it. The part I think that is throwing you off is that you can see through the wall.

Try this run every scenario you can think of and replace wall of force with wall of stone. In all those cases the wall of stone stops you from seeing the target the wall of force will also prevent targetring.


Okay.....thank you! I am fine and clear with that. My players, however, will not be. Because they'll look at that example, using the wall of stone instead, and say it's different.

I will read the rule about targeting. I'm still preparing for more arguments, but thank you; I understand. They will not.

And what page are the rules regarding targeting on?

EDIT: Never mind....I found the page. Yeah....that's pretty clear to me.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Merlin_47 wrote:

Okay....so the wall stops it. That is understood; but now the one last question that's going to be asked to me relentlessly - why?

I understand RAW....but that's not good enough for the players. And do remember - I don't have the benefit of Rule Zero anymore. I lost that after 2nd Edition. They need to have a why. And because they interpret the spell as written differently.

Because the magic of the Wall of Force blocks the magic of the other spell.


But wall of stone is not different. They are walls. You can see through the wall of force, but you still don't have line of effect. It all comes down to an obstacle, be in wall of force, wall of stone, or a pane of glass, in the way of the spell effect. Whether that spell is a conjuration or evocation is irrelevant, the only spells you can really use that circumvent the wall are teleportation spells (like dim door, etc.) The reason such spells work is that the target is "you" or "touched persons" so all the magic is taking place on the caster's side of the wall. The line of effect is not blocked. However, if I were to try and create volcanic ash or summon a monster on the other side of the wall, the line of effect would be blocked.

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Merlin_47 wrote:
And do remember - I don't have the benefit of Rule Zero anymore. I lost that after 2nd Edition. They need to have a why. And because they interpret the spell as written differently.

B$~~$@*s. If I had to deal with a group of players like that for a home game, they can jolly well find themselves someone else to flog. Not only would I not GM for them, I'd likely not play with them as well.

The rules serve the game.... not the other way around.


Again, thank you all; it's MUCH clearer to me. And after reading the rules, it's also clear cut and dry.

LazarX wrote:

B~&&+$&s. If I had to deal with a group of players like that for a home game, they can jolly well find themselves someone else to flog. Not only would I not GM for them, I'd likely not play with them as well.

The rules serve the game.... not the other way around.

I agree; sometimes, my players seem to think that I'm using them to serve me. There's times, I've forgotten a certain rule applies to me, I've admitted that I forgot and rolled with it, accepting the rule. Since my thinking is "old school" (2nd Ed) and my party is all "new school" (3rd and up), they are not as quick to allow that rule to happen. They see that rule as a "harsh rule that punishes players".

Again...I expect something of an argument, because they're hung up on that they can see the target still and that gaze attacks still work. It makes sense to me and I'll do my best to explain it. At the very least, I'll tell them the page to read in the book.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Merlin_47 wrote:
Unfortunately, they don't see it that way; they're hung up on "if it doesn't originate from you, you can do it regardless".

With this, plus their non-acceptance of Rule Zero, I suggest you encourage them to run their own games.

Not even a tiny bit kidding. The only reason to play the game is if it's going to be fun, and players who are this dogmatic are going to be unrewarding to play with. Even if you manage to claw your way to getting them to accept a single ruling after hours of strenuous effort, that'll do you no good at all next time.

The rule is nice and clear:

PRD wrote:

Line of Effect: A line of effect is a straight, unblocked path that indicates what a spell can affect. A line of effect is canceled by a solid barrier. It's like line of sight for ranged weapons, except that it's not blocked by fog, darkness, and other factors that limit normal sight.

You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect. You must have a clear line of effect to the point of origin of any spell you cast.

So, if you need line of effect, you cannot go "around" anything. Spells with a "spread" area can spread around corners, and that does not violate this rule because you only need a line of effect to the origin of the spell.

Summoning is pretty obvious:

Summon Monster wrote:


Effect one summoned creature

Is the creature an effect? Yes. The spell "creates" the effect (yes, it's actually summoned, but that counts as "creating the effect" for rules purposes). Therefore, you must have line of effect to the creature when it is summoned. Period.

You can't summon a creature in the air, so you can't summon it "over" the wall of force.

Your players are trying to cheat. Their attitude, in general, makes me think they just aren't mature enough to play an RPG, because they are not yet ready for the concept of playing the way that will be the most fun rather than the way which most immediately benefits their characters mechanically.

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Merlin_47 wrote:
I understand RAW....but that's not good enough for the players. And do remember - I don't have the benefit of Rule Zero anymore. I lost that after 2nd Edition. They need to have a why. And because they interpret the spell as written differently.

Wait, they don't accept the rules in the rulebook, they also reject the GM's authority and they don't like other people's interpretation? What possible source of knowledge is left, and what's the point of you or anyone else talking to them?


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I also want to clarify, this is not a result of them not being old-school. This is a result of them being cheaters. Lots of people who learned on 3E understand GM authority as a concept.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies, Representative - D20 Hobbies

Merlin_47 wrote:
hung up on "if it doesn't originate from you, you can do it regardless".

That refers to using your familiar to deliver spells or other effects like scry why you alter the point of origin of a spell.

Merlin_47 wrote:
if the Wall had not been touching a ceiling, could it have worked?

If you are flying and have line of effect over the wall to the target.

Merlin_47 wrote:
I understand RAW ... I don't have the benefit of Rule Zero anymore.

That is when I say flatly, I'm done GMing for you folk. Period. No joke. Because RAW is something that means whatever they wish. RAW dead people can still take actions. RAW means Shield Master doesn't take Iterative attack penalties/power attack penalties, etc.

None are actual RAW, but rather RAW as I interpret them to my advantage.


Again, I thank you all. It's nice to have clarification.

@Starglim - they can all interpret the rule one way, and I could a different way. That's what all this is caused by. They way I handled it, I said that no, it couldn't go through. I remember that a Wall of Force stopped a lot of spells.

But now I know WHY. Again, I expect some resistance; I don't know how much. But now that I know why and how it got prevented, I can hopefully explain it.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Rule Zero is the entrance requirement for any game with a GM. If they do not accept that, show them the door. If that ends the game, that ends the game--find another or ask one of them to run it instead.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Purely pragmatically: The fact that your players suck at interpreting the rules is also pretty relevant here. Line of effect is a pretty clear rule...

51 to 84 of 84 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Can you cast spells into a Wall of Force (Please need all the opinions you guys can muster) All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.