Uh... none?Let's check that perception.
Kelsey, what is my problem with you?
Great, so that's all correct. You're right, I think you're fine.
You mentioned that you seek approval. Perhaps the advice to "grow a thicker skin" might help.
I remember the first time we spoke, it was about you having problems with GMing a group. We determined that the problem was the players running roughshod over you, because you wanted their approval to the point that you were fully willing to destroy your own happiness to get that approval. It got to the point that they withheld their approval until you agreed to be miserable, and anything less was unacceptable. So, yes, extraordinary effort to win approval has been a theme.
Part of the issue is understanding why people fight. Sometimes, it is because people like to fight. They'll read something, and disagree with it, regardless of the argument. When you find that, just avoid it. Sometimes, it's because someone else has a different belief. Here's where discussion is good, and learning about other people's beliefs is very valuable.
Note that I didn't say that after the discussion, everyone shares the same beliefs. That's because that's not what happens. Most of the time, that shouldn't happen. Both sides should keep their differing beliefs, but their beliefs become more informed. If one side changes its mind, it will be because of the new information and that side's own reasoning, not because of the forcing of one will upon another.
What this means is that disagreements will remain, and approval will not be reached. Furthermore, the lack of approval is actually healthy.
So, I'm not recommending you find a way to achieve approval. I recommend you find a way to accept whatever it is you believe, and not be willing to simply (and stressfully) abandon your belief when someone else challenges it. Because if you feel too much stress when someone else believes differently...
Very thoughtful post. I remember about reading that thread about Kelsey's abusive players, now. The smart asses ran roughshod over her.
@Kelsey: it seems that indeed you have a powerful need for the approbation of others, which can be a major problem (depending on said others and their willingness to push you farther than you would like). So yes, a thicker skin and an higher opinion of yourself and your ideas would be nice. Be assertive. Seek professional help, it can do wonders on self confidence issues.
Look I could probably pick apart the neuroses and personality flaws of any regular on these boards, and I'm sure people could do the same to me (and have a field day) but that doesn't really help the community. Even if you're asking for it.
I am honestly saying that you're fine. I have no problem with you. I disagree with you sometimes but I disagree with everyone, even comrade anklebiter. I find your post content and style less inflammatory than most posters here. I don't find your contribution to the community to be remarkable in a positive or negative sense. I don't think I've ever read something you posted and thought "wow Kelsey's got it right!" nor have I wanted to strangle you.
You are asking for feedback and my only feedback is 1)I have no feedback to give and 2)asking for such feedback is sort of weird and inappropriate for these forums.
#2) Grow a thicker skin.Also, this times a thousand.
Seriously, I have no illusions that most people here probably have a negative perception of me. Meh. I think most of my RL friends secretly hate me. S'all good.
I am not so certain about secretly hating you. I would at least be man enough to tell you. LOL.
IMHO who the hell cares what people think of you? To me life isn't a popularity contest. It may differ for you, but that is a rather juvenile way of thought. In the end I have better things to worry about.
The only thing I have against you is your posting these types of threads to throw a pity party for yourself. Stop that.With all do respect, this isn't a pity party, it's asking for help recognizing my annoying habits. I don't want to be told I'm fine, I want to be told what I do wrong.
Ninja'd by Zylphryx, but honestly Kels, no one who has a problem with your behavior is likely to give you a reasonable answer. No insult, but you're better off trying to live up to your own ideals than anyone else's.
I disagree with you sometimes but I disagree with everyone, even comrade anklebiter.
(Emphasis added.)
Well. There's a sentence I never expected in all my life to ever see.
The only thing I have against you is your posting these types of threads to throw a pity party for yourself. Stop that.With all do respect, this isn't a pity party, it's asking for help recognizing my annoying habits. I don't want to be told I'm fine, I want to be told what I do wrong.
What you do wrong?
Put simply, I son't think we have ever engaged in any "arguments" or such.
However, I so remember being surprised by the number of "hot" threads started by you and checking through the various post lists where I found an alias making a post which was something to the effect of claiming to have been suspended for admitting that those threads had been started with the intention of getting people riled up. I later couldn't find that post or the thread it had been in and so I think it was deleted and I can see why...
So, deliberately trying to get posters riled up could be why some would treat you differently than others but I don't know if any of those you were referring to saw those posts of which I speak.
I ignored it for the most part and assumed that better behavior was now at hand.
But, when seeing this (emphasis added mine):
I guess it's a matter of perception. I do perceive that people have issues with me and that it is because of how I act, and I don't like it. I seek approval, not fights. Fighting is fun at first, but it gets tiring quickly. I want people to help me avoid that.
...Maybe this whole thread is one of my issues. Does it seem like attention whoring?
...I have difficulty reconciling it with those former posts I saw that (I think) have since been deleted.
But, perhaps fights were previously sought and now approval is instead. But, I don't know.
I have no problem with you whatsoever, except that your thread title really should be "What are your guys' problems with me?"
As for seeking approval, I strongly suggest you work on cutting that out, if only for your own sake. As others have pointed out, seeking approval like that places all the power for your own happiness in the hands of other people, and I gotta tell you, even the best of people can suck, especially when handed power like that.
My suggestion is that you work on becoming like the honey badger -- ZERO F@%KS GIVEN!
Seriously, STOP caring what other people think about you. That way lies madness and abject misery. I speak from experience on this (which is how I know this advice is easier to give than to receive, but I can't do much about that, sorry)
Having been "that person" on a different forum, I can tell why some people may have an issue with you (to possibly include myself) and that is overposting. When I go to read a thread, if every other post is one from you or one of your aliases well, that's going to irritate some people. It's understandable you have a lot to say but that doesn't mean you have to say everything that comes to mind and (the thing that bugs me the most) you don't have to ask so many questions about stuff for your game and then get an attitude when you don't get the answer you obviously want. There are no prizes for having the most posts in a thread. The great thing about this game is that there doesn't have to be an "official" ruling for everything (although I'll be the first to admit it does help with certain individuals). Lastly, I realize you often come to these boards for assistance, but if you ask for advice and then don't take it and then reask the same question later, don't expect a different answer.
P.S. Take what I said with a grain of salt. I don't have anything personally against you, it just that you can't please all of the people all of the time so there is no sense trying. Also, keep in mind that while this forum is fairly civil, it is still the internet and like King Arthur said about Camelot in the Holy Grail, "Tis a silly place".
I think one problem may be that those who do have a problem couldnt be bothered telling you what it is. I'm another who doesnt have a problem with you. In terms of general 'how to be seen as less objectionable on the internet' advice, let me endorse the principle of charity:
Essentially, it requires one to give the most favorable interpretation to an opposing point of view. If someone says something you disagree with, try to find an interpretation that makes sense. Rather than assuming the person is using 'flawed logic' or is mistaken in some other way (as many on the internet are prone to do) or is speaking dishonestly - one should instead try and find the strongest formulation of the other person's argument. Doing that is far more likely to discover the actual source of dispute - in general an aesthetic one when it comes to RPGs. If one instead tries to analyse what the other guy says and to pick holes in it, the conversation inexorably devolves into charges of 'strawman!', 'logical fallacy!', 'badwrongfun', etcetera etcetera
Again - I'm not saying you actually do this, nor that this is the reason anyone may have an issue with you. Nonetheless, I think the principle of charity should be required reading for any internet forum. (There's probably a wikipedia page on it, I'd suspect).
And if not on wikipedia, try TVtropes
I like this explanation...
Scroll down to John Gabriel's "Greater Internet F***wad Theory"
EDIT: I should take this moment to state I did not post this as a reason to why people may or may not like you, but why someone may respond to a post of yours with over-the-top ass hatery.
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Kelsey--
Serious answer:
I don't think it's so much most of the people on the boards having a problem with you, as it is you having a problem with yourself. Personally, so far I only know you through these boards-- but I usually enjoy your posts and threads, and I usually appreciate what you have to say-- even when I disagree with your opinion. If I were to set up a list of people on these boards that I ought to sit back in a pub and have a drink with someday (the sort of list I hear TOZ keeps :) ), you'd probably be on it.
So, what you can do, to help yourself on these boards? Much easier said than done, I know, but--
Basically, what'cha need to do (IMO): develop a "thicker skin", build up some self-esteem, gain some self-confidence... and do not build your self-worth around others' approval of you and your ideas. It's kind of hard to see yourself as worthwhile or comprehend/make an honest assessment of how other people see you, if you hate yourself (I know from personal experience how difficult that can be, since that was a problem I had when I was much younger, and it took me years to get over it).
Yes, there are some people on these boards who don't like you and/or don't like any of your posts. I'm not one of them. I do tend to be a little bit confrontational in debating style when I'm pursuing an argument and presenting counter-points to positions I disagree with, even with people I like (something I'm working on, about making sure that my strong opinions and legitimate oratorical attacks on someone's position in an argument do not stray across the line into personal attacks, as personal attacks are not acceptable as a general rule of being a civilized reasonable individual, not just as a rule of posting on these boards)-- so, if you perceive some of my counter-arguments to posts you've made as attacks on you, they're not. The ones who hate you for being who you are-- ignore them. It's also okay, if you're feeling a little pressed and attacked on these boards, to take a break from the computer and do something else for a little bit-- then return after you've calmed down.
Now, I can also say, there are people on Paizo's boards whose posts I generally don't like, whose opinions I do not find well-reasoned, and whom I don't terribly enjoy discussing things with-- I often find myself getting into discussions that they also happen to be involved in anyway-- then again, there's all kinds of people on these boards (although that should not be taken to represent my opinion on some folks-- there are some people here that I have initially gotten into really serious arguments and misunderstandings with, that resulted in mutual explosions-- whose presence I still very much appreciate on these boards and whom I rather like, now that the misunderstandings have been cleared up)... you are not going to please everyone, you're probably not going to like everyone, and you're very unlikely to get along with everyone-- I wouldn't worry about that, if I were you, because that's part of the human condition.
And, beyond the people one merely dislikes-- there are a (very) few posters on Paizo's boards whom I would block (if there were such an option), whom I really dislike, if not outright hate, and whom I genuinely consider to be "oxygen thieves". Most (if not all) of those are because of things said, opinions rendered, stances taken, on RL issues that really offend me-- I'm not going to get that worked up over a game with anyone here. You will have to recognize that there are people out there, who will utterly hate you, just for being who you are-- and whose views, attitudes, etc., will never mesh with your own. Don't let it get to you-- that's another part of the human condition that is unavoidable. As far as I can tell, only saints and fools love everyone... the rest of us 'know' too much about our fellow human's flaws, and do not have the fortitude that "saints" have to love everyone anyway, no how bad a person a particular individual may be.
Most of all-- learn to accept yourself for who you are, and be yourself. And if there are people who can't handle the real you, tell 'em to f*** off while you get on with your life.
Wait, what provoked this?
Wait, what provoked this?
A comment from Finn about not understanding why my threads can get so heated.
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I mean dealing with people is a hot topic all together, companies spend millions on HR training and research and despite all of the advances humanity has made, conflict resolution is still something that baffles generation after generation.
Here is an article from cracked.com, a comedy site that sometimes has some surprisingly insightful topics. It is a comedy site, but this article has a more serious overtone, just give it a quick scan.
Linky
The only problem I ever had with you, Kelsey, was when you kept posting non-questions in the James Jacobs Q&A thread. But then I asked you to stop, and you did, without throwing any kind of fit or getting offended. I think that reflects very well for you.
Thank you for that, by the way.
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Always Finn K's fault? Notice taken.
Everyone stop paying attention to Mama Kelsey and look at me!
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A lot of you guys have issues with me, and I don't really know, for the most part, what they are. That's more a problem with me that it is one with you. To be frank, I suck at reading how people feel and what effects my actions have on people, and that's face to face. Online, it's worse. Where my behavior gets irritating may be obvious to you, but it isn't to me. With all do respect, I would appreciate an explanation. It's not that I do or do not think your gripes are justified, it's that I don't fully understand what they are and how I created these gripes. I want to understand this so that I can see where I go wrong and try to go right. To be frank, I need your guy's help to be a better member of the community than I currently am, and I could use your constructive criticism to point out where and how I act like a b!~*!.
I had no problem with you until you created this thread. Now you and I have a major problem. You have created a self fulfilling prophecy that has come true...
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This forum is full of jerks. Happiness comes from within, not without.
Drags bum across the carpet.
This forum is full of jerks. Happiness comes from within, not without.
Drags bum across the carpet.
This calls for a celebration!
BWAAAAAHHHH!!!!!!!
Drags bum across the carpet.
This calls for a celebration!
It's just a little streak. Really, I have done much better.
Honestly, you guys give us poodles a good name.
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On a related note does anyone know how to block a thread from appearing in your feed? Egocentrism gives me hives.
I'll say this. There are a ton of people who can't stand me here. How much do I care? [] <--------- much less than that.
Pretty much this. Live on your own terms, judge your own actions with as objective an eye as possible, and you will rarely be bothered by others' opinions of you. If they hate you, it will be for a dumb internet reason anyway.
I personally think you're too serious about things. Of course I just like to post silly comments and occasionally post something productive.
Kelsey--
Serious answer:
I don't think it's so much most of the people on the boards having a problem with you, as it is you having a problem with yourself. Personally, so far I only know you through these boards-- but I usually enjoy your posts and threads, and I usually appreciate what you have to say-- even when I disagree with your opinion. If I were to set up a list of people on these boards that I ought to sit back in a pub and have a drink with someday (the sort of list I hear TOZ keeps :) ), you'd probably be on it.
So, what you can do, to help yourself on these boards? Much easier said than done, I know, but--
Basically, what'cha need to do (IMO): develop a "thicker skin", build up some self-esteem, gain some self-confidence... and do not build your self-worth around others' approval of you and your ideas. It's kind of hard to see yourself as worthwhile or comprehend/make an honest assessment of how other people see you, if you hate yourself (I know from personal experience how difficult that can be, since that was a problem I had when I was much younger, and it took me years to get over it).
This.
Kelsey, I generally find your post insightful and I always read them when I can. Finn K right. Do not build your self-worth on others' approval and instead on your own self-worth. I will admit, this is something I struggled with for a long time and to a certain degree still struggle with. Its not easy to believe that what you say is worthy of being heard and without others telling you its good.
A good first step is to remind yourself that your opinion is just as valid as someone else's and if someone disagrees with you, you do not need to respond. Just know that your opinion is right for you. And when someone disagrees with you, remember they are disagreeing with the idea you presented and not with how intelligent you are nor are they saying that you should not be heard.
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Of course I just like to post silly comments and occasionally post something productive.It's like seeing my younger self. At least you have a better taste in user names.
The internet makes it much easier to communicate after blowing your own jaw off.
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I've been pondering posting to this thread for awhile, but honesty is good, and you asked. Here is what I have seen as answers to this question in past discussions of this topic.
- Paladin threads
- "damsel in distress syndrome"
- paladin threads
- the 2011 paizo record for the most number of threads generated in the smallest amount of time
- possibly the 2011 paizo record for most hidden threads
- alignment threads
- the uncanny ability to make posts that are hot-button issues that devolve into flamewars
- allegations of being an old troll resurfaced (see the previous point)
- paladin threads
- discrepancies in posts (1 month after posting the "I have never played Pathfinder as it was meant to be played: with dice" thread, there was one about losing control of your high level campaign. What?)
- The format of your thread titles (See #2)
- Paladin threads.
That's about all I remember.
Hey Cheapy, I think you forgot to add "Paladin threads".
What old troll allegations? I never heard any.
As for post discrepancies, that actually did happen. I was stupid enough to start out running games at high levels with zero real GMing experience (anything without dice doesn't count), and it didn't go well at all.
The rest, I need to work on.
There will always be things that people do that will annoy someone. The multiple alias thing gets to some people, but it is your account and there are posters with more, and IMHO it is not really worth a complaint. At times you seem overly enthusiastic, but that is not necessarily a bad thing either.
I notice in this thread, as well as in others, that people will write long, well thought out posts in threads that you have started and you do not indicate that you have even read them or respond to them.
I can see where that would frustrate people, but only because those people think you show a great deal of potential as a member of the community.
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What old troll allegations? I never heard any.
As for post discrepancies, that actually did happen. I was stupid enough to start out running games at high levels with zero real GMing experience (anything without dice doesn't count), and it didn't go well at all.
The rest, I need to work on.
You accusing me of something i never said, then snipping i never said x to just X, was VERY trollalishiious.
I don't deny that this happened, but I don't remember it.
Though, that wasn't the question. Cheapy mentioned allegations of being an old troll resurfaced, and I don't remember ever being accused of that.
I notice in this thread, as well as in others, that people will write long, well thought out posts in threads that you have started and you do not indicate that you have even read them or respond to them.
I can see where that would frustrate people, but only because those people think you show a great deal of potential as a member of the community.
I do read those posts. I can try to respond to them more.
A couple of things: What is AM barbarian? And what anti-Kelsey thread?
I've never had a problem with anything I've read by you. Like me and lots of others you sometimes have self esteem issues, I suppose. I'm horrible about cutting myself down (well, actually quite good at it, but you get my point). And I'm constantly throwing comments on threads that really have little do with the subject. But hey, it's part of my charm.
So don't worry about things too much. Be who you are the best you can. And don't go asking for trouble by, well, asking for trouble. Asking folks to point out your flaws will just make you feel worse.
AM Barbarian is an alias of another poster here. I think it is Triam that took on a life of its own, and a build was made based on his posting. The postings are rather funny, and build is not shabby either.
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What old troll allegations? I never heard any.
As for post discrepancies, that actually did happen. I was stupid enough to start out running games at high levels with zero real GMing experience (anything without dice doesn't count), and it didn't go well at all.
The rest, I need to work on.
Been there done that, ran my first game back in 3.0 days with just a PHB and a DMG without really understanding the rules.
Since you do understand the game these days, maybe you could make your life a little bit easier. Or in other words, try normal before you try unusual, human Paladin is hard enough, tiefling Paladin just invites trouble.
Not that I would follow my own advice here, but sometimes blending in is easier.
Mr Dale McCoy JR and others gave you the right idea, don't bse your self worth solely on the oppionions of others.
Oh, I have issues! I have lots and lots of issues. ~rereads the thread~ Oh. You mean issues with you? sorry. ~slinks away, my head hanging in shame~
I vote we blame Crimson Jester for Kelsey feeling picked on.
after all, why not?
It could also SEEM like that people have problems with you, due to simple math.
Say I create 5 posts in a week, and one of them gets heated and angry, then I have a 1 in 5 chance of pissing someone off.
Look at your post count.
You post a heck of a lot, by this simple math, it would probably seem that a ton of people have a problem with you.
I think this is just a perception because you seem to prefer hot button topics.
I don't think it is really an issue. I also spend way too much time on these forums, I just have less to say/contribute.
You are obviously very passionate about Pen and Paper, which is good, however you really need to get a thicker skin if you are going to be asking for community opinions. I also like your shoes!
Thus ends the compliment sandwich.
Oh, and that paladin was CLEARLY evil, mwahahahah