| Cryov |
Was looking at this, http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/afflictions/poison#TOC-How-does-poiso n-work
and it states these are example poisons and a poison I make has a dc equal to the fortitude save I want it to have. However I do not see anywhere on how to determine the cost. I even checked the source links at the bottom of the page and still doesn't have any info.
Can anyone help me with this?
| Akasharose |
Making Poisons uses the Craft(Alchemy) skill, so I use that description... meaning at least 1/3 of the cost (for raw materials) begins the process, with additional cost added only on checks which fails the DC check by 5 or more (which ruins half of those starting raw materials).
| Herald of the Vile |
Was looking at this, http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/afflictions/poison#TOC-How-does-poiso n-work
and it states these are example poisons and a poison I make has a dc equal to the fortitude save I want it to have. However I do not see anywhere on how to determine the cost. I even checked the source links at the bottom of the page and still doesn't have any info.
Can anyone help me with this?
Unfortunately there is no dc to gp calculation that I was able to determine, as I rule it in my game the poisons materials are wasted if you don't make the dc you set for yourself. Which makes it an attempt to create a stronger dose of poison. This doesn't change the base cost of the poison, it instead reflects that it was your characters alchemical prowess that led to the enhanced poison.
There is also the 'accidental' approach where your character left the toxin to stew to long and the dc is sporatic calling for the character to roll and take the result as the dc.
As for pricing that's a difficult thing without a comparable guideline to look at to draw a conclusion. Similar prices per increase of modifier would be 100gp (in case of the comp bow) or 10,000 (+1 dc on a magic item). I would say that since poisons aren't a practical thing overall that having a player pay an increased price for a decent poison is rather trivial, especially after the Master Alchemist feat.
Though if you want a decent answer: each face on a d20 is equal to 5%, increasing or decreasing a dc is altering the chances of success by 5%, therefore given that you're trying to increase the dc of a poison by 'x' ammount the player should spend 5% more in raw materials for every point the base dc increases.
-Jon
| Cryov |
Ok, how would I determine the cost of a raw material then if I am making a custom poison?
For example, if I perhaps wanted to make a poison with a dc 25 fort than knocks you out or puts you to sleep?
I wouldn't know where to start for a base material cost nor know how this affects the price with the high dc. No reference material is a pain ><
| Herald of the Vile |
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Ok, how would I determine the cost of a raw material then if I am making a custom poison?
For example, if I perhaps wanted to make a poison with a dc 25 fort than knocks you out or puts you to sleep?
I wouldn't know where to start for a base material cost nor know how this affects the price with the high dc. No reference material is a pain ><
I may have the specific names wrong, but if you're looking for the a toxin whose effect is unconciousness the game has 3 if I am not mistaken. Drow Poison (Injury), Burnt Othur Fumes (Inhalent) and Blue Whinnis (Ingested). I would simply pick which ever one has your preferred mode of conveyance and then look at the gp to buy the 'standard' market version of the poison. Then determine the cost to craft and then increase it's cost by 5% for the additional supplies.
My example may not be correct but:
Drow Poison, Injury dc 12, Cure 1 save, Initial Unconciousness, Secondary Unconciosness 1d3 hours. Costs 90gp to buy at the market. I decide to make my own and see if I can make it a dc 25 dose as well. The materials normally cost me 45gp plus since i'm trying to make a strong batch I bought 162gp (base plus 9gp/+1dc). At the end of the four hours it takes me to make my poison, I make my check and voila. I go and knock out the Hulking Barmaid.
A lot of effort but I didn't have to resort to a nonlethal Flamestrike to do it.
-Jon
| Cyrus Lanthier |
Cryov wrote:
Though if you want a decent answer: each face on a d20 is equal to 5%, increasing or decreasing a dc is altering the chances of success by 5%, therefore given that you're trying to increase the dc of a poison by 'x' ammount the player should spend 5% more in raw materials for every point the base dc increases.-Jon
Even if a 5% increase in price justified a 5% increase in effect in this case, the logic here would still be off. +1 DC on an all-or-nothing effect like poison is always greater than a 5% increase in effect, except in extreme cases (like when the target has a fort save bonus greater than or more than 20 less than the DC already).
Observe: If you needed a 11 to make a save, that you fail 10 times out of 20. Say the poison does 2 Str damage on average. In that case, if you are hit by it 20 times, you would lose (on average) 20 points of Str.
Now, the poison is concentrated; you need an 11. Now, you fail 10 times, for a total of 22 points of Str, which is a 10% increase in the overall effect. This happens because it is the percentage of the time that you fail the save you have to consider, before and after the added DC. If you needed a 2 or lower to fail before, +2 DC would double the effect by doubling your likelihood of failing a save (so +1 would be +50% effect).
I can also explain the Monty Haul Problem, if you like.
In response to the OP, I *hope* that they mean the DC that the poison already has (the listed DC) is the DC of the craft check, full stop. I guess if you wanted to "concentrate" the poison, I would assume that every +2 doubles the cost, since it would be like one dose of poison "aiding another," if you will.
| Cyrus Lanthier |
Herald of the Vile wrote:Cryov wrote:
Though if you want a decent answer: each face on a d20 is equal to 5%, increasing or decreasing a dc is altering the chances of success by 5%, therefore given that you're trying to increase the dc of a poison by 'x' ammount the player should spend 5% more in raw materials for every point the base dc increases.-Jon
Even if a 5% increase in price justified a 5% increase in effect in this case, the logic here would still be off. +1 DC on an all-or-nothing effect like poison is always greater than a 5% increase in effect, except in extreme cases (like when the target has a fort save bonus greater than or more than 20 less than the DC already).
Observe: If you needed a 11 to make a save, that you fail 10 times out of 20. Say the poison does 2 Str damage on average. In that case, if you are hit by it 20 times, you would lose (on average) 20 points of Str.
Now, the poison is concentrated; you need an 11. Now, you fail 10 times, for a total of 22 points of Str, which is a 10% increase in the overall effect. This happens because it is the percentage of the time that you fail the save you have to consider, before and after the added DC. If you needed a 2 or lower to fail before, +2 DC would double the effect by doubling your likelihood of failing a save (so +1 would be +50% effect).
I can also explain the Monty Haul Problem, if you like.
In response to the OP, I *hope* that they mean the DC that the poison already has (the listed DC) is the DC of the craft check, full stop. I guess if you wanted to "concentrate" the poison, I would assume that every +2 doubles the cost, since it would be like one dose of poison "aiding another," if you will.
Quoting is hard... I am not sure why I can't get this one to come out right.
| Herald of the Vile |
I find the 5% additional cost for +1 DC to be hugely broken. Also, It's much easier to ramp up a skill check than a saving throw...
Poison is crud in fantasy games, it always will be just like diseases are laughable. The 5% is just an example. There's no neat and pretty cannon way of determining the cost per point of dc. My simple rule concerning it is "don't bother with it, you can't sell it and unless you've got a 1d3 con poison with a frequency measured in rounds or an Alchemist poisoning others is ineffective and sad.
Now 5% may seem broken given how expensive most poisons are it's actually quite a bit unless you're in a game where you have money to blow on anything that catches your fancy.
| Cyrus Lanthier |
There has to be some upper limit, though... DC 30 sleep poison would be better than most 9th level spells, and would cost less than a thousand...
Wait, why is poison crud? Anything that knocks Con out of you (especially mid combat) is pretty fatal and gaining back one stat point a day is a nightmare (unless, again, you have money to blow on tons of restoration scrolls/potions). It is true that lots of monsters are immune to them, though, but against some things (including other humanoids) poison can be devastating.
Disease, yea, is generally more of a problem for PC's than baddies, since baddies spend so much time off screen. Still, I have a player in a game right now who wants to spread a disease in the camps of an invading army, and on that scale, a contagious disease can be dangerous.
In terms of a PC weapon, though, I agree... Poison and disease are fairly useless, but that's more because of the kinds of things they fight (especially at higher levels) than being truly weak game-mechanically. It's like the Enchantment school; if you are faced with a target your spell actually works on, it's amazing- otherwise, not so much...
| Herald of the Vile |
Agreed, its was pay for the original cost of materials, set your target dc, and if you make it great if you fail buy more supplies. There's no definitive 'When creating poisons the dc of the crafting check is equal to the fortitude dc to overcome its effects, you must also spend 'x' gold pieces on raw materials in order to make your poison. So what it really comes down to is a matter of GM preference. Also note that there are no con poisons that function in rounds; hence mentioning it as an option for why you would use poison.
Poison, Disease, etc are all GM weapons; the average party members will be devastated by these but the plethora of monsters in an unisolated campaign will laugh at your futile attempts to weaken them. Just like casting spells with a will save is also laughable.
-Herald of the Vile
| Cryov |
Ok ok, so I take it that really there are no straight guidelines, it is at the discretion of our GM. In any case this makes it very hard for characters like alchemist and rogue subtypes to understand the full potential of their class.
I think this could be remedied if we had better rules or a supplement added just for poisons. Otherwise it all seems vague and unclear as to what you can make and the price to make it.
In my opinion..seems like poison was added to the game then they just forgot to put in a few pages to explain it :/
| Herald of the Vile |
Poison as it works doesn't function very well in a game where a character levels as things like Arsenic which is a commonly feared poison in the real world ends up being a sore stomach and iratable bowls in Pathfinder & 3.5. Overall it's never been covered very well in either versions of the game though Pathfinder has simplified the process a bit and made it an 'out of the box' ability that anyone can potentially use.
I've made my suggestions as I've done in my past games and asaide for poisoning a Bungbear Antipaladin army, no one uses them not even our drow. My NPC alchemist loves being poisoned, he's an Apothecary and hands out 'Remove Disease' vials of his own blood. When he did shoot for making poison I have him shoot for dc 10+modifier toxin and accept that sometimes my moonshine gets a little watery.
If you're serious about using poisons, I would say sit down and take a look at the chart with your dm and convince him to work with you on it, worse comes to worse he'll make you pay a paltry ammount when measured over the course of your adventuring career.