Bored, so I'm going to write up a palatable fighter. Note that the class isn't supposed to be super-powerful or even particularly balanced; it's just supposed to be less crappy than the 3e/Pathfinder fighter. To make the fighter decent would invovle rewriting the foundations of the class and feat system. This is just an attempt to keep things fairly simple.
HD: d10. Duh.
BAB: Full. +1 per level. Obviously.
Saves: Good Fortitude and Reflex, poor Will. (Remember in 2e when the fighter got the best saves in the game? I think he deserves decent Reflex.)
Skills: 4 + Int per level. Class skills are Climb (Str),
Craft (Int), Diplomacy, Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (engineering) (Int), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str).
Weapons and Armor Proficiency
All simple and martial weapons; all armor and all shields.
Mighty Warrior
A fighter can treat half of his Strength modifier as his Constitution modifier for all purposes and effects (including Fortitude saves and bonus hit points at each level). So save those points in Constitution and put them into Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma so you can do something beyond "I hit it with a stick."
This ability only applies to single-classed fighters. So if you're thinking about doing something trickly like dipping into the class as a barbarian, you can think again, buster.
Weapon Training
When a fighter gains a feat that applies a benefit to a specific weapon or weapon group, he can apply the benefit to every weapon with which he is proficient. For instance, the Weapon Focus feat would provide him with a +1 bonus on all attack rolls (as long as the fighter is proficient with the weapon wielded).
Bonus Feats
At 1st, 2nd, 5th, 8th, 11th, 14th, and 17th levels, a fighter gains a bonus [Combat] feat.
In addition, the fighter gains the following feats at the following levels: Weapon Focus (1), Weapon Specialization (4), Greater Weapon Focus (8), Improved Critical (8), Greater Weapon Specialization (12).
Bravery
At 2nd level, a fighter is immune to fear. (You mad, paladins?)
Armor Training
At 3rd level, a fighter no long suffers movement penalties from wearing medium or heavy armor.
Special Mount
At 4th level, a fighter gets a special mount because a fighter without a horse is like a fish without an underwater bicycle. This functions like the druid's animal companion, and the fighter's effective druid level is equal to his fighter level.
Maneuver Master
At 4th level, a fighter is treated as having the following feats for all purposes and effects: Improved Bull Rush, Improved Disarm, Improved Sunder, Improved Overrun, and Improved Trip. This even counts for the prerequisites of other feats.
Weapon Specialization
At 7th level, a fighter gains a +1 bonus on weapon attack rolls and a +2 bonus on weapon damage rolls. Boooooring, but who turns down a chance to hit something better?
Armor Specialization
At 9th level, a fighter gains a +2 bonus to AC to any armor he wears (not including shields) and damage reduction 4/--. In addition, he can ignore all armor check penalties from armor and shields.
Full Attack
At 12th level, a fighter can make a full attack as a standard action or on a charge.
Weapon Mastery
At 13th level, the bonuses from Weapon Specialization improve to +2/+4. (If you've been keeping track, the fighter has +4/+8 to damage thus far, booooo for those who don't like boring fighters, but it makes those iteratives more likely to hit, so suck it up, buddy.)
Armor Mastery
At 15th level, the damage reduction from Armor Specialization improves to DR 8/--. At this point, you probably don't care that much anyway.
Okay, I've lost interest in doing anything else with the fighter. Discuss.
I'd replace Bravery with Resolve (see Samurai, Ultimate Combat) at 1st level.
No free Vital Strike progression?
No Fighter Combat feats get to ignore all non-BAB pre-reqs?
Loses weapon training entirely?
Specializes in ALL weapons?
No frequent feat swap-outs?
Mmm.
===Aelryinth
FYI, I'm aware that Mighty Warrior is stupidbad. It's just that non-casters get boned on ability scores, given that I expect a basic fighter to have a 16 Strength, 14 Dex, 14 Con or at least something around there. So the fighter ends up dumping his Wisdom, Intelligence, or Charisma to get to the point where he can half function even though the game hates him for doing so. The only other real options involve stat replacement (I considered Con for Dex), but that would be 4e levels of not making sense.
No Fighter Combat feats get to ignore all non-BAB pre-reqs?
I was close to doing that.
Let's start with skills:
I agree with 4+Int. But I think every class should have it's skills bumped by +2, so this just fits in with that line of thinking.
For a Fighter list:
Acrobatics, Climb, Craft, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Knowledge (Dungeoneering), Knowledge (Nobility), Perception, Profession, Ride, Swim
This list makes sense to me. Why does a Ftr need Handle Animal? Or Survival? Why does every generic fighter have Engineering knowledge? (Seems more rogue-like to me...)
Aaaand, that's as far as I'm going on this discussion. Everything else after skills started to get a lil too wonky for me. ;)
Know: Engineering you have a valid argument about. I still think precision work like you suggest fits a rogue archetype better, but I'm not married to the idea enough to fight for it. ;)
Survival can be used untrained. It doesn't make sense that random fighter is just as good at wilderness survival as his Ranger counterpart.
Handle Animal I just don't buy. The Ride skill is what you use for riding, and you can buy any necessary animal (riding or labor) with all it's tricks pre-trained. (But to be fair, Handle Animal is Trained Only, though I really think the DC10 ability should be available untrained.)
I would give Fighters this ability:
Superior equipment (not a good name but I don't have a better one yet)
The Fighter knows how to care for his equipment to keep it in best condition.
When he tends his equipment, once per day he can designate one piece of equipment that counts as if masterwork for one day. The number of items he can choose per day increases with every 5 level he attains.
The fighter can not only choose weapons or armor but every kind of equipment that is available in masterwork quality, including saddles, backpacks, tools etc.
Tending to his equipment takes 1h + 15min/item to be considered masterwork.
It is a task that he is so used to, that he can do it while being on watch without being a real distraction.
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I would go a different route, and I guess I'll post a rough outline. I've certainly thought about remaking a class, but rarely do I actually pin it down. I am only putting down changes to the existing class.
4 skills, add Perception to class skills list.
Good Fort and Will saves. Bad Reflex save.
Bravery
A fighter adds 1/2 of his fighter levels to Will saves against fear spells and effects. The fighter can add this bonus to his Intimate checks against a target he has dealt damage as an immediate action. At level 10, add the damage dealt to the Intimate check.
Armor Training
At level 3, the fighter gains DR 1/- when wearing medium or heavy armors. Every four levels thereafter (7, 11, 15), this ability increases by 1. The fighter also gain this bonus to his CMD against sunder against his armor.
Maneuver Training
At level 6, the fighter can select one of the following as a bonus feat even if he does not meet the prerequisites for the feat: Improved Bull Rush, Improved Disarm, Improved Overrun, Improved Sunder, and Improved Trip. The fighter adds 1/2 of his fighter levels to CMB using that feat. At level 12, he gains the Greater version of the feat selected at level 6.
Maneuver Master
At level 18, the fighter adds his fighter class levels to the CMB of the Maneuver Training feat he selected. The fighter can perform this combat maneuver as part of an full attack action, even if the maneuver normally does not allow it.
A fighter build that does not dwell on several points does not attract much interest to me.
1) Move and full attack in melee. This is a basic melee problem viz spellcasters and archers. The lack of full attack damage is a problem.
2) Skill points and skills.
3) Better saves, preferably all good. he's a fighter...he trains for this stuff. And leaving a gaping hole in his saves in a magical universe is STUPID.
4)Master of feats: The fighter should get more out of feats then anyone.
5) Student of feats: The fighter should get more feats then anyone...and not just combat feats. Retraining is definitely an option.
6) Modularity: You should be able to build the fighter you want.
7) Viability: The fighter has to address key weaknesses at all levels without being problematic.
8) Climb the feat tree: A fighter getting a feat that offers a better version of itself should be able to 'swap up', i.e. make the feat improve itself, rather then wasting another feat slot. I.e. Weapon focus should take the Fighter all the way to Greater Weapon Spec...it's all one tree.
9) Fighters ignore all non-BAB pre-reqs to their Bonus feats. If he wants WHirlwind attack without 3 other feats, he can TAKE it. He's just that good.
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Other changes I'd make to the PF fighter.
1) I'd change the Armor Training bonus to a flat Dodge bonus to AC. This removes the high Dex requirement from the mix, and insures all fighters can take advantage of their class ability.
2) I'd give the Armor training bonus as DR that stacks with adamantine. Now you have a real useful choice...+2 AC from dex/mithral, or +3 DR?
3) Bravery would provide its bonus on fear saves and intimidation checks. The Fighter would have a good Will save. Bravery would have TEETH.
4) Weapon Focus provides either a +1 bonus to hit, or doubles your Weapon Training bonus. Every time you gain a new Weapon Group, a fighter could designate a weapon from that group as a Focused weapon.
5) Official swap out of feats every other level, just like a sorc.
6) More Bonus feats. Every level they don't get a Combat feat, they get a General feat that can take feats that alter skills, saves, or hit points (like, Skill Focus, Iron Will, or Toughness, Ferocity, etc).
7) Four skill points a level, same skill list, but a person who takes a fighter at level one can designate +2 class skills of their choice. Modularity instead of a big skill list. You want a tactician, pick your skills!
8) Swap out heavy armor/tower shield for a good reflex save as an option.
9) More feats that have extra perks when a fighter takes them. Iron Will auto improves to Imp Iron WIll, OR doubles at level 10. A Fighter taking Toughness adds his Fighter Fort save as bonus hit points.
A fighter should be able to do stupendous things with feats. Feats can cover for a lack of skill points, a lack of magic, and a lack of other options.
Leadership and profession (soldier) should be able to combine for some substantial leadership/Marshal options for a fighter, if he chooses to go that route.
Like a rogue, the fighter should be the absolute master of a set of mundane skills...he should be able to make mundane be awesome. Barbs spend rage to get exceptionally good at stuff...fighters use feats!
===Aelryinth
I don't like alot of the forced class abilities.
Just add:
Now the fighter is still nice and customizable, yet given the means to do more than just engage in combat.
the Bonus feats I'd give them would be called Fighter Training Feats. Malignor had an excellent starting list of them. But you can't make a small pool of them, you have to allow for later feats to be constructed.
And I'd add things like Toughness, Diehard, Ferocity, and leave lots of room for high-end feats to be put into place.
Also, the idea of giving them a bonus to identify monsters and their powers is okay, but I'd tie it to something, like their number of combat feats...and I'd make it a feat. Note that without putting any points into the knowledge skills, they could get a VERY hefty bonus to the check. The primary use of Knowledge skills to PC's is identifying monsters, after all, and this would basically equal the bard. I don't have a problem with it...the bard's knowledge is like a sponge, where a fighter is looking specifically for stories of weaknesses of enemies to exploit.
===Aelryinth
Looks like what we want in here is a Ftr that is just superior in every way to every other combat-based class, huh?
/eyeroll
Wasn't Mordor the losing side ... I'm just sayin'.
FIGHTER
BAB: +1
Good Saves: Fortitude
Hit Dice: 1d10
Class Skills: Acrobatics (Dex), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (any two) (Int), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str).
Skill Ranks per Level: 4 + Intelligence modifier
Fighters are proficient in all simple and martial weapons, all armors, and all shields, including tower shields.
LEVEL ABILITY
1. Bonus Feat, Signature Weapon
2. Bonus Feat, Saving Grace 1/day
3. Defensive Training 1
4. Bonus Feat, Fighter Talent
5. Offensive Training 1
6. Bonus Feat, Saving Grace 2/day
7. Defensive Training 2
8. Bonus Feat, Fighter Talent
9. Offensive Training 2
10. Bonus Feat, Saving Grace 3/day
11. Defensive Training 3
12. Bonus Feat, Fighter Talent
13. Offensive Training 3
14. Bonus Feat, Saving Grace 4/day
15. Defensive Training 4
16. Bonus Feat, Fighter Talent
17. Offensive Training 4
18. Bonus Feat, Saving Grace 5/day
19. Defensive Training 5
20. Bonus Feat, Fighter Talent, Offensive Training 5
Bonus Feat: At 1st level, 2nd level, and every 2 levels thereafter, the fighter gains a bonus combat feat.
Signature Weapon: At 1st level, the fighter may choose to gain proficiency in a single exotic weapon or choose to gain the Weapon Focus feat in a weapon he already is proficient in.
Saving Grace (Ex): At 2nd level, the fighter may re-roll a failed saving throw as an immediate action once per day. Alternatively, he may add half his fighter level to a single saving throw once per day as an immediate action. At 6th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, he gains an additional daily use of this ability.
Defensive Training (Ex or Su): At 3rd level, the fighter may choose Armor Training (as the standard fighter), or Armor Enhancement (+1 enhancement to any armor you wear at 3rd level, +2 at 7th level, +3 at 11th level, +4 at 15th level, and +5 at 19th level).
Fighter Talent (Ex, Sp, or Su): At 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the fighter gains one of the following abilities. The fighter must meet any requirements of the selected talent.
Graceful Avoidance (Ex): When using Saving Grace, if you successfully make a saving throw against an effect that normally causes half damage or a has a partial effect, you take no damage or suffer no ill consequences instead.
Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): Prerequisite: Uncanny Dodge.
Major Magic (Sp): Prerequisite: Intelligence 11, minor magic fighter talent
Benefit: A fighter with this talent gains the ability to cast a 1st-level spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell list two times a day as a spell-like ability. The caster level for this ability is equal to the fighter's level. The save DC for this spell is 11 + the fighter's Intelligence modifier
Minor Magic (Sp): Prerequisite: Intelligence 10
Benefit: A fighter with this talent gains the ability to cast a 0-level spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. This spell can be cast three times a day as a spell-like ability. The caster level for this ability is equal to the fighter's level. The save DC for this spell is 10 + the fighter's Intelligence modifier.
Signature Weapon Mastery (Ex): You may select one of the following feats and apply it to your signature weapon: Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization, Improved Critical, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization.
Skilled Combatant (Ex): The fighter adds half his fighter level to Bluff checks made to feint in combat, Intimidate checks made to demoralize opponents in combat, etc.
Sneaky Attack (Ex): The fighter adds his Dexterity modifier to damage rolls against opponents that are flat-footed or flanked by him.
Uncanny Dodge (Ex):
Versatile Combatant (Ex): The fighter can use his Strength or Dexterity score in place of his Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma score when qualifying for feats.
Vital Striker (Ex) Prerequisite: BAB +6. Benefit: You gain Vital Strike as a bonus feat. When your BAB is +11, you gain Improved Vital Strike as a bonus feat. When your BAB is +16, you gain Greater Vital Strike as a bonus feat.
Offensive Training (Ex or Su): At 5th level, the fighter chooses to either gain Weapon Training 1 (and Weapon Training 2, 3, and 4 at levels 9, 13, and 17, and Weapon Mastery at 20th level) or the ability to grant his signature weapon a +1 enhancement bonus to attack and damage rolls; this improves to +2 at 9th level, +3 at 13th level, +4 at 17th level, and +5 at 20th level; these enhancement bonuses stack with any enhancement bonus the weapon may already possess, up to a maximum of +5 (this bonus maximum increases to +6 at 20th level).
a rogue/fighter combo?
I've always been a fighter is non-magic purist. Fighters should get awesome spells and maybe spell resistance by being non-magical, not MORE magical.
Hence why I tend to stick to feats and skill points stuff.
==Aelryinth