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For spells not normally on the witch spell list, what level does the witch cast patron spells at for figuring out DCs?
Mathwei is right, but I think there are a few spells in there that aren't intuitive; meaning you get them earlier than the level you'd expect. It's all good, roll with it.
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Yes, I would very much like to see the source information on this as well. I am currently prepping a witch for Reign of Winter and this is causing a bit of confusion to me as well.
Ancestors gets Heroism (not greater heroism, unless that's been errata-ed or d20pfsrd.com typo-ed it) at 12th level.
Confirmed on pg 3 of Errata of UM. It is Supposed to be Greater Heroism
However, I think a better example is the level 14 Ancestor Patron spell "refuge" which is a Witch 9 spell. A witch doesn't get to cast level 9 spells until level 17. So does this lower the spell level?
I'm guessing that one is "divine" and the other arcane based on the casting levels of clerics and wizards
Negative on that, Houston. All spells you cast as a Witch are arcane.
is like domain spells. you get it at the highest you could cast at that level. ONLY has a domain spell slot. it works the same with patron spells (but i dont think is a limit to patron spell slots)
Super late response but i belive they are treated as the level of whatever spell slot you expend to cast them.
Super late response but i belive they are treated as the level of whatever spell slot you expend to cast them.
Not unless you're using the Heighten Spell feat.
Actually for any caster who gets a domain/patron/whatever spell at an earlier level than it is normally available to them, then that specific spell is cast using a spell slot for the level the spell was obtained. There is nothing preventing the caster to also "learn", in whatever way they gain new spells, that spell in a version at the normal level. These are effectively two different spells, at two different spell levels with all that it entails.
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Actually for any caster who gets a domain/patron/whatever spell at an earlier level than it is normally available to them, then that specific spell is cast using a spell slot for the level the spell was obtained.
Got a rules citation for that?
Just reading the rules for the With Patron, it simply says
At 2nd level, and every two levels thereafter, a witch’s patron adds new spells to a witch’s list of spells known. These spells are also automatically added to the list of spells stored by the familiar.
There's nothing in there about giving you the ability to prepare or cast the spell, or changing it's level.
Level 2 Patron Spell → 1st level spell.
Level 4 Patron Spell → 2nd level spell.
Level 6 Patron Spell → 3rd level spell.
Level 8 Patron Spell → 4th level spell.
Level 10 Patron Spell → 5th level spell.
Level 12 Patron Spell → 6th level spell.
Level 14 Patron Spell → 7th level spell.
Level 16 Patron Spell → 8th level spell.
Level 18 Patron Spell → 9th level spell.
If the spell is on both the Patron Spell List and the Witch Spell List at different levels, I would personally rule that the Patron version takes precedence over the Witch version.
If you get the spell as a patron spell at a different level, then you can get the spell twice. Once at each spell level. With the associated DC. So a late access spell gets a low level spell a higher DC as though it was heightened, while a spell gained at a lower level will have a lower DC.
/cevah