Adventure Path Backmatter

[Adam Daigle]

I know people have debated their interest in fiction appearing in the AP as well as the number of monsters, and it seems everyone likes the deity articles, so let’s assume the format and type of articles goes unchanged to avoid rehashing those arguments.

I’ve also noticed that much of this material never shows up in reviews of the AP chapters. Why do you think this is? Do you think people are mainly focusing on the adventure at hand and consider the last third of the book to be extra? As someone who’s written a fair number of monsters and articles in the last third of those books, maybe I’m just sensitive. :)

What do people like and dislike about everything other than the adventures in the volumes of the APs?

What has stood out to those of you buying and reading the APs?

Which articles have seen the most use in your campaigns?

Which articles have seen the least use in your campaigns?

[Steve Geddes]

For me, an AP is definitely "an adventure instalment plus some additional thematically linked bits and pieces". Whether its good or bad is determined pretty much solely by the adventure quality, in my eyes.

In terms of what I like in those extra bits - I like more flavor material and less mechanics. Gazetteers suit me better than statblocks and I prefer an "ecology of the..." article to a bunch of monsters.

Ultimately though, I think the AP would be good value if it only included the adventure - everything else is an added bonus.

[Neil Spicer]

Let's see...

The article on tieflings (from Council of Thieves: Bastards of Erebus) came in particularly handy when I was working on the finale for Jade Regent. Same deal for the articles on the Varisian, Shoanti, or Ulfen cultures that pop up across various APs.

I also routinely check out the deity articles by Sean, not simply for the adventure, but for general insights into playing a PC cleric of a particular deity...or when building an NPC cleric to use in a completely different adventure.

I think the gazetteer articles are cool for giving you a deeper dive on a particular city that plays a prominent role in an adventure path...but also just to widen out the reader's understanding of Golarion at-large.

Lastly, the bestiary section often helps serve up a less common monster you can introduce your players to...whether you use it in a particular AP or not. These are a lot harder to locate when I'm searching for something specific, though...which is why I like seeing the better ones eventually find their way into one of the hardcover Bestiary books.

[Spanky the Leprechaun]

The main thing for me is the monsters.

I liked the possession rules; and I liked the stuff on the haunts.

[Dark_Mistress]

The extra is honestly the main reason I get the AP's. yeah I like the adventures but at this point I honestly have more adventures than i will likely ever use, but the other stuff is still handy.

The ones I like the most have been the region sections, gods sections, ecology style sections like the tiefling one or ones like it, stuff like that. Monster part is pretty cool and I can take or leave the fiction, for of it I like and some I don't.

[Mort the Cleverly Named]

Anything and everything is good with me. The articles probably wouldn't convince me to buy an AP volume I didn't want, nor keep me from buying one I did. However, I absolutely enjoy them. Religion and Ecology articles are some of my favorites, but they are all good reads.

As for what has seen the most use, easily the gazetteers and city write-ups. Mostly because the adventure almost always takes place in that city or region, and it gives great information for fleshing out and flavoring a party's travels.

The least useful are the bestiaries, as well as articles on traps, haunts, or magic items. It isn't that the material is bad, it is just doubtful I'll remember it exists when making an adventure. Bringing it all together into a single volume would be great (especially for the bestiaries), but I understand Paizo's reasons for not wanting to do this.

Also, I'd like to say...

Quote:

The article on tieflings (from Council of Thieves: Bastards of Erebus) came in particularly handy when I was working on the finale for Jade Regent.

The fact that a thread about backmatter has given us a sneak preview is my new favorite thing about backmatter.

[Cpt_kirstov]

I think the fluff material in the back is much better than crunch. I have much more use for the fluff, writing articles for the wiki, writing backgrounds for characters, figuring out how NPC X would act in this situation.... the only time I read crunchy articles is when im running that particular adventure. (And im only on book 3 of my first ap even though im a charter superscriber) .

That being said I would like the back matter of APs advertized more. We knew about the stronghold buikding article in ap 3 before AP 1 came out... but I feel that after legacy of fire, the only backmatter articles thatb were really talked about were the kingdom building rules and the diety articles. Carion crwon I still don't know the back matter in some of them.. and they've been out for up to a year now..

[Glass Castle]

For the moment- just noting in response to your comment about "everyone likes the Deity articles" about two years ago, I complained in depth about how much I disliked the Deity articles and much preferred the new rules articles (Kingmaker rules, Carrion Crown Haunt rules, etc., Caravan Jade Regent rules) and city or country diagrams (e.g. the north lands in Jade Regent, Iobaria in Kingmaker, etc)--those articles added value to me. [Note: no worries about defending the Deity articles- Sean Reynolds responded in depth to my complaints. I still disagree with him, but I still appreciate his response. I am also mollified a bit since Paizo added 2 extra pages of content recently by deleting the sample adventurers. I still would like to see 1-2 of the self-ad pages deleted, but it's not a huge issue-I was actually at the time suggesting cutting the self-ad pages rather than the sample adventurers.]

I do not use the Deities and the bland Deity articles are pretty much colour by numbers- they're easy to make and are essentially templates.

I don't particularly like the Ecology of the etc. (eg. Boggard) articles...but those are neutral for me. They are just usually quite dull. In comparison, I love Paizo's ____ Revisited line.

I strongly dislike the fiction. It is okay to read, but I'd rather have content. If I want books, I'll buy a book. If I want a game, I buy a game.

In purchasing an AP, my decisions are made based on:
1. Good adventure?
2. Good supplemental articles.

If it's an okay adventure with Good supplements, I will purchase it. Thus, since the Legacy of Fire AP the nearly worthless deity articles have turned me off of some episodes- about 2 or 3 I was on the fence about.

The supplemental articles have caused me to purchase at least 4 episodes.

Overall Verdict: I purchase AP issues when it looks (to me) like Paizo has put out extraordinary effort. For the high price that the books cost, I want to make sure I receive extraordinary value; thus I am extremely discriminating regarding on which issues I spend my money. Paizo has produced some excellent work recently: Kingmaker AP, portions of Carrion Crown (with tweaking), portions of Jade Regent's back matter and subsystems (I do not care about the main plot) and I am very much looking forward to several episodes of Skull and Shackles.

[Sean Mahoney]

I purchase the AP modules to run those AP modules. I don't get to run them all, but that is my intent... the possibility. As a result, what I am looking for in the other material in those is that it be useful for me in running that campaign.

Articles on gods that come up in those campaigns, good!

Articles on expanding portions of related play (kingdom building, et.c), good!

Monsters that appear in the adventures, good!

Monsters that don't appear in the adventures, not really useful.

Fiction that has nothing to do with the campaign other than being set in the same part of world, bad. Perhaps if it were a prequel of events in the campaign... who knows.

Basically I am looking for anything in that adventure path module to support that adventure path module. If it doesn't, it feels like a waste of space.

Sean Mahoney

[thenovalord]

For me

Fiction...wanna make my own epics and stories not read someone elses

Monsters.... way below the ELs of the particular mod...why?

Deity stuff....if it relevant throughout the AP, so for KM erastil good, Gorum, not

but mostly quite good

[TerraNova]

I actually like the back matter very much. Since I read the volume long before it sees actual play, the adventure usually is "expected quality" long before it becomes "real". The morsels of Golarion, the monsters and also the much-maligned fiction keep my interest warm until i finally get to play or gm the adventure itself.

[Nac Mac Feegle]

Sean Mahoney wrote:

I purchase the AP modules to run those AP modules. I don't get to run them all, but that is my intent... the possibility. As a result, what I am looking for in the other material in those is that it be useful for me in running that campaign.

Articles on gods that come up in those campaigns, good!

Articles on expanding portions of related play (kingdom building, et.c), good!

Monsters that appear in the adventures, good!

Monsters that don't appear in the adventures, not really useful.

Fiction that has nothing to do with the campaign other than being set in the same part of world, bad. Perhaps if it were a prequel of events in the campaign... who knows.

Basically I am looking for anything in that adventure path module to support that adventure path module. If it doesn't, it feels like a waste of space.

Sean Mahoney

I agree on all counts.

[cibet44]

I buy and run the APs as whole campaigns. I run them pretty much as written and if I'm not planning on running a particular AP I don't buy the volumes at all.

Adam Daigle wrote:

What do people like and dislike about everything other than the adventures in the volumes of the APs?

I like articles that apply directly to the adventure at hand or can be reused in the entire arc at various points. Having to flip to various physical AP volumes for a rule reference can be annoying but is manageable. So I find the most convenient and useful arrangement is to have the backmatter at hand applied to the adventure in that same volume (this goes for bestiary monsters as well).

One of my biggest complaints about recent AP backmatter was the "Agent of the Grave" PrC from CC. See here for details.

The deity stuff is interesting background material to read and I'm sure it seeps into my GM subconscious when running NPCs of that faith. However, it rarely impacts the PCs since they don't read the articles at all. Maybe I'll start photocopying and distributing them?

Adam Daigle wrote:

Which articles have seen the most use in your campaigns?
Which articles have seen the least use in your campaigns?

In order from most use to least use:

1. CR appropriate bestiary monsters that are written into the AP adventure of the volume they appear in.
2. Gazetteer articles that describe locations the players actually visit in the AP.
3. CR appropriate bestiary monsters that are written into the AP at any point.
4. Articles that have a mechanical impact in the adventure in that volume. For example: the high altitude article in Spires of Xin Shalast. Not so much that it was a fantastic article but more that it applied directly to the adventure at hand.
5. CR appropriate bestiary monsters that are not written into the AP at any point that I add myself.
6. Articles that have a mechanical impact to any adventure in the AP (not many of these, oddly, I wish there were more, see below).
7. Articles that describe Golarian background appropriate to the current AP (Ex.: Whispering Way article, Esoteric Order article).
8. Deity articles that apply to NPCs in the AP or whose followers have a large role in the AP story.
9. "Ecology" type articles (I may or may not even read them).
10. Deity articles that apply to PCs (not really used at all).
11. Fiction. This would move up the list if I knew the fiction was directly related to the adventure at hand. I haven't seen much of the fiction do this but I admittedly don't read most of it.

Adam Daigle wrote:

What has stood out to those of you buying and reading the APs?

In no particular order:

1. That the volumes in the first half of the AP get much more "Paizo screen time" than the latter half. I've discussed this ad nauseam on the boards. For the latest on this issue look no further than the last volume of Jade Regent shipping at the exact same time as the first volume of S&S. Which volume do you think will get more discussion and developer and author feedback on the boards and Paizo marketing "face time" in general?

2. That the APs seem to be having a bit of an identity crises with regard to both adventure and backmatter content. Are they individual volumes useful on their own OR are they "part x of 6" in an isolated campaign? At this point I would like to see the AP volumes "choose a side" and figure out what they want to be when they grow up (they are 5 years old now :)).

Here is what would be ideal for me with regard to this issue:

A. The adventures are "part x of 6". That's it. There is no assumption that you might run an adventure outside of the AP campaign. If you do this, great, but you are on your own. Each adventure in the 6 part arc should be closely and directly tied to its siblings. There should be things that happen in part 2 that directly impact part 5. Part 6 should expect events from part 1 to have occurred and part 1 should leave many required breadcrumbs for part 6. The adventures should all be directly and concretely linked. I wouldn't even mind seeing (and I know this is risky) adversarial NPCs that advance in level along with the AP volumes.

B. The backmatter should be generic rules or flavor based stuff that can be applied to any part of the AP or any Pathfinder campaign.

Off the top of my head, some generic articles I would like to see:

- Details on overland travel for the PCs. Kingmaker started this with its hex based stuff but didn't go far enough. I would like to see detailed uses of the Survival skill, rules on setting up secure shelter in the wilderness using existing skills, examples of tracking over long distances, tracking in cities. Uses for the "get along in the wild" aspect of Survival. Rewards for PCs traveling overland, they should benefit from doing this so they don't always just teleport as soon as they can (maybe find hidden treasure with Knowledge or Survival checks). Using Knowledge or Survival to rest inside an occupied dungeon and receive benefits or penalties for doing so so that don't automatically mean a wandering monster encounter.

- An article that lists mechanical benefits by creature type that PCs receive from having ranks in Knowledge skills. For instance:

Knowledge(Dungeonneering)
Ooze
1-3 ranks: +1 to damage
4-6 ranks: +1 to damage, increase critical threat range
7-10 ranks: Ignore the Mindless trait.

- Gazetteers for cities/towns that PCs might come across in their travels in the current AP but are not directly part of it. My players are always taking nearby detours when a town is on their path. It would be nice to have a few gazetteers on hand that I can reference when this happens.

[Joey Virtue]

I Love the back matter besides the Fiction I rather have more adventure more monsters or more information about Golarion and other things

[Adam Daigle]

I enjoy seeing how folks use this material and likes and dislikes. Thanks for the answers so far!

[Jim Groves]

Adam,

I generally gloss the fiction. I'm not anti-fiction by any means, but I'm usually short on time.

The deity articles are a must for me. I love those. Yet, I don't necessarily use the information a lot in a practical sense. Mostly just to depict the deities accurately in the context of Golarion.

I do use the Bestiaries A LOT. I've even used AP Bestiaries as a freelancer (though those products are not in print yet, and frankly I don't know what my Developer is going to say about me using AP monsters in other Paizo products. OTOH, I don't see why they wouldn't approve).

I love and use other support articles. Like the Varisian culture primer in CotCT, and the Haunt Rules in CC. Ecologies are always awesome.

[Jason Nelson]

I've never read any of the fiction, but I don't object to it being there. I almost never read the fiction back in the old days of Dragon either, though I remember a few enjoyable short stories.

The backmatter articles that get most use from me are the rules subsystems ones (things like diseases from back in CotCT or the Kingmaker stuff or that kind of thing) and I do use the Bestiaries.

[cibet44]

My review of the backmatter in Haunting of Harrowstone:
Ravengro
My PCs spent a large amount of time in Ravengro (as expected) and the detail of this article was indispensible when running the town. I always find these gazetteers helpful and required and this one is no exception. It's a bit muddied up with the (ignored in my game) trust mechanics but otherwise I used it in its entirety. It also contains the Gamemastery Guide version of the settlement statblock, which is basically a requirement for me at this point. I don't know what I did without them in the past. The map was flavorful and useful with the added bonus of being player friendly. Backmatter like this I consider an extension of the adventure itself.
Haunts
In general I don't use haunts much unless they are written directly into the adventure, and when they are the haunt stat block gives me everything I need. I didn't feel it was necessary to have an entire article on haunts but I could see why some GMs would find it useful. I won't use this article again in the AP. I don't think haunts are an appropriate challenge or mechanics for CR8+ or so. They are fine as a low-level story telling device (I think their original intent) but expanding them to higher CRs (14!) seems a bit egregious to me. I know high CR haunts exist later in the AP but I'll probably replace them with actual monsters when the time comes.
Common Ashes
I did read this fiction in its entirety when I first acquired this volume months ago. Today, I remember almost nothing about it.
Bestiary
The encounter tables seem like a new addition to the bestiary, I don't remember seeing them before. Very useful, I don't roll on them but I do use them to select what kind of unscripted encounters I'll throw at the PCs. I love seeing what the most common and least common creatures are by looking at the percentages, kind of like a mini ecology.

Alchemical Ooze Swarm
I used quite a few of these in unscripted encounters. They worked very well.

Animated Object
I only used the ones detailed in the adventure. I did not need or use the construction rules. Not a great addition for me, I don’t construct monsters on the fly.

Beheaded
I used a few of these in unscripted encounters as well the scripted ones. Pretty creepy little things, good flavor. Made my players wonder if this AP "would have something to do with severed heads". That’s what a new monster is supposed to do, make the players take notice and think about it!

Changeling
I didn't read this entry much passed "witch 1", and I don't use alternate PC races, so this was a zero for me. I don't think the game needed "witches" (since it already has them, they are called role playing your wizard, sorcerer, druid or even bard).

Ectoplasmic creature
I used the ones written into the adventure and didn’t add any others. They worked fine if not a little mechanically wonky for such a low CR. I didn't like the term "ectoplasmic " in the name so I just called them zombies.

Spring-Heeled jack
I kicked off the adventure with Spring-Heeled jack and a couple severed heads ambushing the PCs right before they got to Ravengro. Great encounter, players loved it. I don't like the name "Spring-Heeled jack", it's just too tied to real world myths. I know this can be said about almost any monster in the game but this is one that does cross the imaginary line for me (like Jabberwocky does as well). I just didn't give it a name at all during the fight, which actually ended up making it creepier.

Formula for Terror
A fine overview of the AP but since I don't run the AP until I have all the volumes in hand these overviews are wasted space.

[cibet44]

My review of the backmatter in Trial of the Beast:
Phrasma
Reading though the entire AP I already know Phrasma worshippers play a role throughout so I made sure to read this article. Typically if I don’t think a deity plays a role in the AP I’ll gloss over or skip the deity entry. Overall this article was the same high quality of previous ones I’ve read. I don’t want to critique it in detail because I’m sure a lot of this stuff is very useful for some GMs. For me, not so much, but it does make an interesting read. Things like “holidays” and “aphorisms” play absolutely no role in my games but I’m sure they are invaluable to someone. It does throw in some new rules, with a new spell and a custom summon list, but I never seem to be able to work this stuff into my game.
Esoteric Order of the Palatine Eye
Here we have a heavily detailed article about a secret society that plays a fairly large role in the campaign. Overall it was a good read and gave a nice flavor to the Order. Frustratingly, though, it does not detail what the Order is doing in this campaign other than opposing the Whispering Way. Even in this goal the article doesn’t provide any details on why they would do this. It doesn’t seem like a Good (in fact it doesn’t ever mention what the alignment of this group is at all) faction, so why would they? I like the write up, but I would have loved more time spent on what the Order is doing in Carrion Crown and what their motivations are in stopping (or not stopping) the Whispering Way and less about the rest of the stuff. Furthermore this article seems to do very little to peel back the “secret” part of the “secret society”. After reading the article I still don’t know what this group does exactly or why. Shouldn’t that be what the article is about? I’m the GM! Let me in on “the secret” of this society. Just reading the name and some of the history provided there is almost certainly some kind of Dark Tapestry connection with this group so why not spell it out in this article instead of dance around it?
To me this article is indicative of one of the more pervasive issues with the backmatter in the APs, it seems like this article stands apart from the campaign when it should be heavily tied to it. This article should have described all the interaction the PCs will have with the Order over the course of the AP, what the Orders goals will be in this campaign, and how they plan to accomplish them. It should have listed (by name and location) Order NPCs the players will have a chance to meet and what the reactions to the PCs those members might have (if any). This way I can plot out over the course of the campaign just how the Order will influence things and how the PCs can interact with them. If the Order will help the PCs, how? magic items? spell casting? information? If they will hinder them, how? obfuscation? outright attacks? Put the group in the campaign, not alongside it.
Decay by Degrees
Did not read this one.
Bestiary
I again enjoyed and found the random encounter tables useful. The detail about the border guards and Varisian wanderers was a nice touch as well. It didn’t come into play but it could have.
Boruta
This looks like an interesting creature but since the CR is so high I at first only skimmed the entry. In general I think the bestiary entries should be limited to the AP volumes level range. By the time my PCs are ready for this guy I probably won’t remember to go back and look him up.
Skeleton
This monster entry was interesting but frankly I would never really use it. One of the best things about the skeleton as a monster is that it is so simple to use mechanically but still evocative, especially at low levels. This skeleton entry adds too much complication to the beautifully simple skeleton for my taste. There are already enough complex monsters in the game, I don’t need to make a simple one harder to use.

Skin Stealer
Obviously this got some use since a Skin Stealer is prominent in the adventure itself. Not a bad monster overall but I couldn’t help but wonder why the game needed a doppelganger fey when it already had a doppelganger. Fey don’t play a part in the AP at all aside from this encounter so it did seem a little out of place to me at the time. For whatever reason, in my group, when you add certain monster types to the campaign (and Fey is one of them) my players seem to get the idea that it is meaningful in some special way and tend to get hung up on the (in this case) “fey connection” I don’t know why this is.

Steward of the skein
Again CR is way above anything the players can handle at this point so I just didn’t have the time or interest to read the entry in detail. Skimming it, it didn’t seem like it would fit into the AP theme at all either so it probably will never see the tabletop in my Carrion Crown game.

[cibet44]

My review of the backmatter in Broken Moon:

The Whispering Way
So here it is, the big one. This is the write up on the primary organizational force behind the Carrion Crown AP. The article is full of flavor and story describing the Whispering Way and select pieces of its history; overall it is well written and thematic. However, as far as a campaign aid, it did really very little for me as GM. Once again the article seems somehow detached from the very campaign it is featured in. We get bits and pieces about what they Way has done and what it eventually wants to do but nothing on what it is doing right now in this campaign, or why. I know the individual AP volumes describe the motivations of the adherents as they come along, but why not give a grand view of what the Whispering Way is doing and thinking about the “Carrion Crown” right here, right now? As a GM of this AP that’s what I want to see. The article doesn’t even give a cursory mention to any of the leadership in Gallowspire. It never describes, at all, a certain magus noble who has worked his way up into the very upper ranks of the organization and is currently executing a world shattering plan. It’s like this article was written years before Carrion Crown itself was outlined or like the author had no knowledge of the actual campaign. The article does contain a nice prestige class for Whispering Way members with the “Agent of the Grave”. In all it’s a really good PrC and full of flavor. Unfortunately it seems the actual Whispering Way members have no use for it since none of them (except poor Auren) even bother to train in it. Maybe it’s like the MBA of the Whispering Way, in that when you are trying to get into the organization it is made out to be a requirement. Then, once you’re in, you see none of leaders even went to college. I hope Auren didn’t take out too many student loans to get his!

Ecology of the Lycanthrope
I read this article through once but it did not come into play during Broken Moon really at all. It was well written and very detailed but since I ran Broken Moon as more of a “survive a few nights in this weird house in the scary woods” adventure than a “enter the mind of the lycanthrope” adventure, I really had no use for the information. I think this space would have been put to better use with a gazetteer of the Shudderwood that had more detail about the werewolf tribes and other occupants. The Shudderwood itself could have used more meat on the bones, I think.

The Lost Prince
Didn’t read it.
Bestiary
More settlement stat blocks and random monster tables, awesome. I would like to see the settlement statblocks expanded to include names of inns and other shops as well. I’m always stumped for these things when the players show up in town unexpectedly.

Vilkacis
This monster gets a pretty good spotlight in the adventure itself so it was heavily used. I thought it was pretty good although I don’t enjoy (and rarely use) PC possession as a tactic. I don’t like taking control of a PC while the player gets to sit there and do nothing. So aside from editing those powers out of the creature I used it pretty much as is.

Weaverworm
This had a nice little kick off encounter in the beginning of the adventure (with a liar!) so it got good use. I thought the monster fit in pretty well with the Shudderwood but didn’t detract from the overall theme of the campaign. When it showed up it was pretty obviously just another dangerous denizen of the wood and not something potentially tied to the plot (a good thing for my group). Nice variety of abilities and creepy as well. It died kind of quickly though, I don’t think I did its Drag ability correctly since the mechanics were a bit confusing to me in the heat of the moment.

Werebat
I didn’t use this lycanthrope at all; one lycanthrope type in an adventure is enough for me. I’m not sure why this creature needs to exist in the game anyway. Vampires already can turn into bats, why do we need people that can turn into bats that are not vampires?
Zombies
I didn’t get any use out of this at all. Much like skeletons from the previous AP volume I don’t see a need to complicate a simple and iconic monster with more abilities and options. There is already a good variety of weird monsters in the game so keeping zombies simple and recognizable is a positive to me, not a negative. Plus I don’t like messing with the existing undead hierarchy. To me, more powerful zombies are called ghouls, ghasts, and liches, not “zombie lords” and such.

[Toadkiller Dog]

Because I currently run Carrion Crown I'll only answer questions in relation to it, because I'm currently most familiar with it.

Quote:

What do people like and dislike about everything other than the adventures in the volumes of the APs?

I dislike everything that doesn't have any direct ties to the chapter at hand. Examples would include Bestiary monsters that can't be put into chapter (either due to its CR or their relation to the chapter), such as Steward of the Skein in Trial of the Beast - a CR 15 agent of Pharasma. She's related to Pharasma and Pharasma has an article devoted to her in the chapter, but its statblock (which takes up a whole page mind you) is completely useless. Same goes for Star-Spawn of Cthulhu in Chapter 4 and many more.

Quote:

What has stood out to those of you buying and reading the APs?

Article about Whispering Way and Liches. Good information which helped me to make the adventure feel more alive.

Quote:

Which articles have seen the most use in your campaigns?

Answered above, but I could also mention the article about Caliphas (much better than info given in Rule of Fear).

Quote:

Which articles have seen the least use in your campaigns?

Aside from creatures that appear in AP as written, I rarely use monsters from Bestiaries because the before-mentioned issues with them. I used Spring-Heeled Jack as a random encounter and I'll maybe use Lesser Grim Reaper and Mother's Maw, but that's it.

Also, I've never read fiction stories. Not because I don't think they're not good (some of them I'm sure are), but because I like to choose stories I read and not read them just because they're in a product I bought for other reasons.

I'd read them if they were for example stories about NPCs from the chapter/AP or the plot of the chapter in the form of a novel from the point of view of someone else's character.

[Deidre Tiriel]

Sean Mahoney wrote:

I purchase the AP modules to run those AP modules. I don't get to run them all, but that is my intent... the possibility. As a result, what I am looking for in the other material in those is that it be useful for me in running that campaign.

Articles on gods that come up in those campaigns, good!

Articles on expanding portions of related play (kingdom building, et.c), good!

Monsters that appear in the adventures, good!

Monsters that don't appear in the adventures, not really useful.

Fiction that has nothing to do with the campaign other than being set in the same part of world, bad. Perhaps if it were a prequel of events in the campaign... who knows.

Basically I am looking for anything in that adventure path module to support that adventure path module. If it doesn't, it feels like a waste of space.

Sean Mahoney

+1 to everything.

[cibet44]

My review of the backmatter in Wake of the Watcher:

Cults of the Dark Tapestry
Well this is pretty much the perfect backmatter article. It is an interesting topic (to me), has a nice mixture of BOTH flavor and mechanics, and has that unique quality of satisfying my curiosity yet leaving me wanting more. The only flaw this article has is that it is not really connected to the Carrion Crown campaign at all. In fact, this article actually makes me want to launch a Dark Tapestry campaign immediately. I can’t even in good conscience add any of this to my current campaign because I feel it will have the same effect on my players. Transitioning from the Dark Tapestry theme of Wake to the urban Vampire theme of Ashes will be difficult enough already. I only wish Carrion Crown had a Dark Tapestry based final chapter instead of shoehorning it into part 4. I can’t help but think this was done purposefully by Paizo since Dark Tapestry is something they want to be integral to Golarian yet they know part 6 of an AP doesn’t sell well, so they decided to publish it in part 4.

Relics
Didn’t read it.

Bestiary
The “Detour to Carrion Hill” section was pretty lackluster as it gives an uninspired way to integrate the module into Carrion Crown (basically, the dark rider decides to go to Carrion Hill and the PCs could follow if they want with the ultimate reward being a +2 to Knowledge checks about the Whispering Way, end of story). A real opportunity was missed here I think. No problem for me though, as one of the PCs was killed at the end of Broken Moon, so (after perusing the map of Ustalav) the players decided to stop in a nearby town called “Carrion Hill” to look for a way to bring him back. Oh are they in for a surprise!

As for the rest of the Bestiary my group is just now starting Wake so I don’t have any actual play to use during the review yet. Also, I’ve read more than my fair share of Lovecraft so I’m sure I have some preconceived notions of what these critters should and should not do. Suffice to say I think the Lovecraft inspired monsters are pretty spot on and the newly invented ones fit in nicely. I was especially impressed with the Elder Thing. The stat block seems like it could have been printed in the back of “Mountains of Madness” by Lovecraft himself, just elegant work there. It really says something about the game itself that you can stat-up something like an Elder Thing or Colour out of Space right alongside a goblin and dragon and have it all work.

The greatest complaint I have about the backmatter in this volume is that it seems to overpower the Carrion Crown AP as a whole. The Star Spawn of Cthullu alone makes Adivian seem like an entry on a Virlych wandering monster table. As much as I like the content of Wake, I do wish it was part of an AP of its own. Here it just feels out of place and cramped in the middle of Carrion Crown.

[Arnwyn]

Adam Daigle wrote:

I’ve also noticed that much of this material never shows up in reviews of the AP chapters. Why do you think this is? Do you think people are mainly focusing on the adventure at hand and consider the last third of the book to be extra? As someone who’s written a fair number of monsters and articles in the last third of those books, maybe I’m just sensitive. :)

Yes. I'm in the Adventure Path for the adventure path, not the extraneous stuff. (Not that it's not always useful... but it is extraneous - to me.) Don't care much about that last third, and they're usually pretty hit 'n' miss in value (but see below).

... Sorry you're in that last third.

Quote:

What do people like and dislike about everything other than the adventures in the volumes of the APs?

I really like the expansion articles (any and all expansion articles) that tie directly into the AP. From city descriptions, monsters that appear in the AP, organizations that appear in the AP - all great stuff. For me, I consider the page count for these articles as directly part of the page count of the AP. For example, city gazetteers are directly part of the AP, AFAIC. Love 'em.

Quote:

What has stood out to those of you buying and reading the APs? Which articles have seen the most use in your campaigns?

My favorite expansion articles (and those that see the most use) are the aforementioned city gazeteers. These are extremely valuable and can see continued use into the future. As presented so far, they are also easily adaptable to other campaigns, so that's a huge bonus that keeps me buying. (And the maps! Really really great.) The cities could be toned down in size (way too many that are WAY too big), but that's a small complaint.

I also love rules subsystems. Kingmaker is the biggie on this front. Haunts and possession rules are also really nice.

Quote:

Which articles have seen the least use in your campaigns?

- Fiction. Waste of space. (Fiction lovers - don't waste your time responding.)

- God articles. (Don't play in Golarion - though I can see the value if the god figures into that specific AP.)
- Many monsters (though not all). Don't need much more at this stage of the game, for me.

[Arnwyn]

Sean Mahoney wrote:

I purchase the AP modules to run those AP modules. I don't get to run them all, but that is my intent... the possibility. As a result, what I am looking for in the other material in those is that it be useful for me in running that campaign.

Articles on gods that come up in those campaigns, good!

Articles on expanding portions of related play (kingdom building, et.c), good!

Monsters that appear in the adventures, good!

Monsters that don't appear in the adventures, not really useful.

Fiction that has nothing to do with the campaign other than being set in the same part of world, bad. Perhaps if it were a prequel of events in the campaign... who knows.

Basically I am looking for anything in that adventure path module to support that adventure path module. If it doesn't, it feels like a waste of space.

Or, uh, what he said.

[Sean Mahoney]

The more I think about the fiction the more I realize that it just isn't something I ever read. However, I really think I would turn that attitude around if it were somehow related to the adventure path it was presented in. A prequel that talked about the events leading up to the start of the adventure path, the bbeg's life, something like that... it would add a lot and let the GM really be ready to bring those NPCs that appear in it to life.

Other ideas for good additions to the back matter would be just about anything that would help flesh out the world and bring it to life.

I am thinking of something like the first adventure for Jade Regent might have a couple of pages of random townsfolk from sandpoint that would be interesting for the PCs to interact with. I am not looking for stat blocks here, but more personalities, quirks, something that is important to them and some scandal they are involved in. Something that gives the GM more hooks to sink into the world.

What else... maybe an article that gives random charts for weather in the areas the campaign will be taking place in with notes on how to include that in the game (often just pointing to relevant spots in the GMG).

If you have a campaign like Curse of the Crimson Throne or Council of Thieves that takes place in a single city, a huge section on rumors in the city (most having nothing to do with the campaign but just more mood hooks to help bring things to life).

I don't know... just rambling now, but I just really would want more focus on running that particular campaign rather than generic stuff. I wouldn't exclude the bestiary at all as I think that is popular, but I would recommend keeping all the creatures in each one CR appropriate for that adventure and then have a short paragraph on ideas for incorporating it into the path.

Anyway... just my thoughts. I know the original idea was sort of a replacement for Dungeon and Dragon in one book, but the random articles just don't feel right. I LOVE that they are there, but wish they were all support for the campaign.

Remember the support for the AP's that used to be in Dragon? Everything from what you could shop for in some random town to cohorts you could find in the AP. THAT stuff was good. I would love to see more of that. Sure it wasn't the focus, but are there really that many people who don't buy the AP for the adventure and even if they don't can't use the support articles unless they are not supporting the current adventure?

ok... still rambling... I will let it go.

Sean Mahoney

[Sunderstone]

Pretty much what was said above. I never read the fiction either.
My favorite parts of the back matter are the Gazetteers by far, especially if that's where the volume takes place. The bestiaries are great with the random encounter tables of the areas in the volume of the ap. Sean's deity articles are excellent though Paizo only has so many deities, this should end eventually.

The sub system rules I'm tired of. Half of them are semi-broken. I'd prefer to see those in their own supplement but this is being addressed soon.

What I wouldn't mind seeing is more of the interesting NPC write ups like in Jade Regent, great idea. I would sacrifice these for the return of set pieces though. :)

[Jenner2057]

Let me just pile on by saying: I run APs because I'm usually short on time. I don't have the time to generate my own adventures and stat out my own monsters (nor would they be of Paizo's quality... so there's that too)

This means not ONCE have I had the free time to sit down and read through any of the fiction. To me (and only speaking for ME), it's just a complete waste of space. Any free time I have is better spent prep'ing the adventure or reading articles directly related to the adventure.

I'm running SS, so I'll do a quick flip through books 3 and 4 that I have with me:

Book3 Backmatter:
Expedition Rules: I'm a big fan of the subsystems and will always read these. They usually directly impact the adventure as well.
Path of Juju: haven't even glanced at it. Looks interesting, but no real impact on the adventure I want to run.
Fiction: not a glance. No time.
Bestiary: The random encounter tables are awesome and used repeatedly. The monsters that appear *in* the adventure have been used. The others? Sorry. Barely a glance.

Book 4 Backmatter:
Ecology of Charau-ka: looked interesting, but no time. Skipped it.
Dungeon deathtraps: knew I was going to use this. And quick easy format for inclusion was key.
Fiction: you guessed it: not even a glance
Bestiary: same as above. Encounter table and monsters in the adventure only.

Now I will add that the other Gazeteers I have looked through. Eleder and Ilmurea from SS and Brevoy and Iobaria from KM. Those are wonderful for good, hard mood setting material. Usually I'll take the time to at least skim them and get an idea about the background/mood of the location.

[Boxhead]

You know, I never really used much of the back material until I started running a homebrew campaign set in Golarion- I found the adventures themselves gave me enough material to fill out the campaign, without endless random encounters and extra stuff.

Now I'm thrilled to have details on the Cinderlands, ancient Thassilon, small towns in Ustalav, and all of that. I've used mostly stuff from APs 1 and 2 so far, but soon they'll be in Ustalav and I can use that material.

[Pyrrhic Victory]

I would like to add about the fiction that while I rarely read the fiction at the time the AP's come out, I have in the past gone back and read most of it and enjoyed it. That being said, with it now available in e-pub form on the site, I think I would rather just get my short story fix that way and have the APs concentrate on gazeteers, etc.

[Sean Mahoney]

Boxhead wrote:

Now I'm thrilled to have details on the Cinderlands, ancient Thassilon, small towns in Ustalav, and all of that. I've used mostly stuff from APs 1 and 2 so far, but soon they'll be in Ustalav and I can use that material.

As someone who isn't running the AP though, would it have been nicer to get these is some other format instead of something in which half of the material (the adventure in your case) wasn't of much use to you?

Sean

[Kajehase]

As someone who, at least for now, mostly buy the books for the evolving world-building content, I love the backmatter - especially the deity-articles and the fiction. One thing I would like to see more of, would be articles about the various human ethnicities like the ones about Varisians and Shoanti. And the ecology-articles almost always a good read.

As for the monsters... well, I hope Daigle is aware of my div-fanboy status, but if not: monsters are cool, especially the div.

[Joana]

Sean Mahoney wrote:

Boxhead wrote:

Now I'm thrilled to have details on the Cinderlands, ancient Thassilon, small towns in Ustalav, and all of that. I've used mostly stuff from APs 1 and 2 so far, but soon they'll be in Ustalav and I can use that material.

As someone who isn't running the AP though, would it have been nicer to get these is some other format instead of something in which half of the material (the adventure in your case) wasn't of much use to you?

Possibly, but it's better for Paizo to have it all together in one volume. The APs are their flagship line, their bread and butter. They don't want just people interested in running, say, Jade Regent buying Jade Regent. They also want people who are interested in the area around Sandpoint, either because they're running a homebrew campaign in the area or to flesh out a PC from the region, to buy it. They want people who are interested in oni and kami and ninjas to buy it. They want people who want to know more about Shelyn and Irori and PCs who worship them to buy it. They want people interested in Kalsgard and the Land of the Linnorm Kings and the Crown of the World to buy it. They want people who want more information about Kasai and Minkai to buy it.

If all that was in the AP line was AP stuff, I wouldn't still be subscribing. I've only run one AP 2/3 of the way through, and it took me two years. But even when the upcoming adventure isn't one that interests me, I haven't cancelled my subscription because I don't want to miss out on the backmatter. Works out pretty well for Paizo that way. And I don't begrudge them the fact, because the more AP subscriptions they sell, the better off the company is and the more cool stuff they can make.

[Boxhead]

Sean Mahoney wrote:

Boxhead wrote:

Now I'm thrilled to have details on the Cinderlands, ancient Thassilon, small towns in Ustalav, and all of that. I've used mostly stuff from APs 1 and 2 so far, but soon they'll be in Ustalav and I can use that material.

As someone who isn't running the AP though, would it have been nicer to get these is some other format instead of something in which half of the material (the adventure in your case) wasn't of much use to you?

Sean

The adventure is a good read, and I always have the option of running the adventure (or a portion thereof) if need be. I've pulled sections from Sinsaw Murders, Haunting of Harrowstone, and a few others. Just because I'm not running an AP from 1-6 doesn't mean I'm not using the adventures at all.

[Jason Nelson]

Kingmaker is the first AP I've ever run. I pulled in most of Skinsaw Murders and Hook Mountain Massacre, though not all, and Lucretia from HMM has become a recurring villain in my KM campaign.

I just started running a campaign with my 17-year-old and some friends, and I decided to start with RotRL. I may run it straight through, or I may offer a divergence point whereby they could skip right into Jade Regent rather than continuing with RotRL. Haven't decided yet.

Anyway, just a case in point of blending bits and pieces along with the core of an AP. I suppose it's neither here nor there when it comes to backmatter, of course, other than what's necessary to run the bits you use... :)

[gbonehead]

I'm a charter subscriber to the APs, and very pleased with them, yet I'm just now running my first ever volume (Carrion Crown 1: Haunting of Harrowstone).

Yet, I find the APs as written tremendously useful. For me, they are the spiritual successor to Dungeon and The Dragon far more than KQ. Nothing against KQ, but it has a different flavor than the deceased D&D magazines.

I read the APs cover to cover ... eventually. But I *always* immediately read the bestiary upon receiving them, flip through to see if there's any material or rules I want to use in my home campaign, and leaf through the adventure to see if there's anything cool.

I've mined no end of stuff from adventure paths for use in my home campaign, and the higher level the AP volume, the more useful it is to me :)

[Papa-DRB]

As a Charter Adventure Path Subscriber, I have them all. I also have the three Dungeon Magazine APs.

When I receive a new Chapter, I read/skim, in order:

1. Read - Forward. I like reading some of the thought processes that go into the adventure.
2. Skim - Bestiary, unless something "pops out" at me, then I read the entry in detail.
3. Read - Support articles for the specific AP such as new sub-systems, ecology, etc. (The Brevoy article in Kingmaker for example)
4. Skim/Read - The Adventure itself. I gloss over stat blocks, but pretty much read most of the rest.

I do not read the fiction. Originally because I was working 50+ hours a week along with doing volunteer work, so I barely had time to sleep, eat and spend some time with wife/family. Now that I am retired, I guess that I just never developed the habit.

I used to skim the side trek adventures, but only used one of them.

As to what is most useful, that would be the bestiaries and the new sub-systems, except the caravan rules (didn't like them). Support articles that directly dealt with the AP, such as the Brevoy article are extremely useful.

-- david
Papa.DRB

[Coridan]

I don't bother with the fiction and am in the camp that it is wasting pages. I sometimes use the monsters but prefer to pull from the bestiary since I can look by CR.

I do like the city articles since I plug the cities into my homebrew. The other articles are hit and miss. I also kinda miss the setpieces.

[Zentaur]

I have to agree with the posts on fiction. I really like the fiction and have been reading them. However, since Paizo already has the Web Fiction and Tales line (which will be my next subscription), I concur that the space can be put to better use.

Perhaps expanded deities content, fluff and crunch on a AP relevant unique race that syncs up with the ARG or more general info on Golarion/Planes/Planets.

Just my 2 copper.

[EATERoftheDEAD]

Zentaur wrote:

I have to agree with the posts on fiction. I really like the fiction and have been reading them. However, since Paizo already has the Web Fiction and Tales line (which will be my next subscription), I concur that the space can be put to better use.

Perhaps expanded deities content, fluff and crunch on a AP relevant unique race that syncs up with the ARG or more general info on Golarion/Planes/Planets.

Just my 2 copper.

If the fiction were dropped that might offer more space to expand the adventures and see how a 1-20 level AP would sell.

[Steve Geddes]

As I understand things there is practically no chance of the fiction being dropped.

Partly because there are people who like it but mainly because a page of fiction is easier to produce than a page of adventure (for the company - I mean no disrespect to any fiction authors). They're already stretched to the limit there, so freeing up half a dozen pages wouldn't result in half a dozen extra pages of adventure.

[EATERoftheDEAD]

Hm, good point.

[Christian Seubert]

I, unfortunately, have to agree and say that I do not read the fiction. I read just about everything else in a given volume but just can't bring myself to read only one chapter of a novella at a time. For me it's not that the fiction wouldn't add to the over product or that I don't like short format fiction, simply that I don't like reading only one of portion of it said story and then have to wait a month for the next short installment. I think even the most patient person would be driven mad by immersing themselves in a good story and then having to basically watch the characters and events transpire under a strobe light that pulsed once every three weeks. I just find it frustrating.

Not that the fiction will be dropped, I honestly don't think it should be, just wish I could think of a less frustrating format, but if pages were somehow freed up, I'd ask for a monster or two more. Give us a wider range of mobs, with a wider range of CRs so that the bestiaries themselves would tie together across the AP. Just a little something that would make me happier with a produced I'm already well satisfied with.

[Steve Geddes]

Christian Seubert wrote:

I, unfortunately, have to agree and say that I do not read the fiction. I read just about everything else in a given volume but just can't bring myself to read only one chapter of a novella at a time. For me it's not that the fiction wouldn't add to the over product or that I don't like short format fiction, simply that I don't like reading only one of portion of it said story and then have to wait a month for the next short installment. I think even the most patient person would be driven mad by immersing themselves in a good story and then having to basically watch the characters and events transpire under a strobe light that pulsed once every three weeks. I just find it frustrating.

Personally, I wait until the AP is completed and read the fiction then. It does mean you have to wait, but at least you're not left hanging for a month at a time - you're just six months behind the latest story.

[Cintra Bristol]

I buy the APs for the adventures. I actually run the adventures using 4E rules - so my responses may not be typical. The supplementary articles that are most useful to me tend to be ruleset-neutral, including:
* Gods articles
* Gazeteer/City/etc. articles (these are my favorites)
* Occasional rules crunch that can be used basically unchanged, such as Haunts

But I don't get much use out of the typical Bestiary entries, extended stat blocks for important NPCs, new spells or magic items, and the other rules-crunch-intensive stuff.

The fiction has been hit-or-miss for me, and I've fallen out of the habit of reading it, to be honest. I did like the Eando Kline chapters, which really added to an understanding of their part of the setting.

[gbonehead]

I skim the adventure paths when they arrive and then read them cover-to-cover ... and put me in the camp of "I'm glad the fiction isn't going away."

Not only is it relatively light reading, but it's great reading and I think does a good job of capturing the tone of the adventure paths, from what I've read so far.